locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1662237:date=Nov 29 2007, 06:36 AM:name=Quaunaut)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Quaunaut @ Nov 29 2007, 06:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1662237"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For the record: Saying that Schools went to crap because Corporal punishment wasn't used isn't exactly a fact, considering at that same time the Teacher's Union was gaining major popularity, and we know what a huge success that's been for Education.
As to my stance on the topic at hand: No they should not be considered casualties, but it *should* be carefully studied by our Military Forces. Casualties I've always seen as from 100% direct causes of the war- a bullet wound, for example. I wouldn't even consider, necessarily, someone stepping on a nail and dying of Tetnis while in Iraq a Casualty, though we may in our statistics.
BUT, I'd still take notice of the amount of Tetnis deaths and see what we could do to prevent it- preventing suicide for this though is a big issue. I'd say one of the main things is, is that many are doing it once they are back home.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I would say the Tetanus death would count as a wartime casualty. What if sharp rusted shrapnel were spread around by freedomfighters/insurgents/terrorists? My hard fast rule would be if you're a soldier in Iraq, and you died in Iraq then you're a wartime casualty. I think it would be a little disingenuous to call soldiers who came back and committed suicide civilian casualties of the war. I think it's also disingenuous to ignore the deaths completely in the statisitics because they weren't in Iraq at the time. Really they should be their own category but mentioned with wartime casualties. Such as "X soldiers died in Iraq this month and Y inactive soldiers committed sucide this month". Or "There were X military casualties this month. Y of those X were suicides in the States." <!--quoteo(post=1662237:date=Nov 29 2007, 06:36 AM:name=Quaunaut)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Quaunaut @ Nov 29 2007, 06:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1662237"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This leads me to wonder: Could it have to do with post-war opportunities? I think we can all agree that the GI Bill secured so many great opportunities for our WW2 vets that it was insane, and the fact that the current system barely benefits being a Veteran is pretty ridiculous.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I definitely think that's part of it. How could you move on with your life if you have nothing to move on to? PTSD wasn't recognized by the U.S. Military as a real disorder for a long time. I'm not sure it's officially recognized by the military now. Of the possible reasons listed above, I'd say support of squadmates, support of Family/Friends/Politicians are most important. I entertain the idea that the "60 days of continuous combat" study coupled with the need of Iraq/Vietnam to constantly be on alert also plays a substantial role.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1662257:date=Nov 29 2007, 11:24 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Nov 29 2007, 11:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1662257"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I definitely think that's part of it. How could you move on with your life if you have nothing to move on to? PTSD wasn't recognized by the U.S. Military as a real disorder for a long time. I'm not sure it's officially recognized by the military now. Of the possible reasons listed above, I'd say support of squadmates, support of Family/Friends/Politicians are most important. I entertain the idea that the "60 days of continuous combat" study coupled with the need of Iraq/Vietnam to constantly be on alert also plays a substantial role.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I am rather sure that the military acknowledges and has some systems to cope with PTSD.
I remember listening to a piece on NPR about psychologists attached to army units for dealing with these things. I honestly can't remember if it was in Iraq or back State side, but I know they are doing SOMETHING. However I do remember one of the problems was GETTING the soldiers to make use of the resources.
QuaunautThe longest seven days in history...Join Date: 2003-03-21Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1662241:date=Nov 29 2007, 03:46 AM:name=Depot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Depot @ Nov 29 2007, 03:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1662241"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Save us the trouble and document this, will you? I know I received thousands of dollars when I got discharged (don't recall the exact amount). What do they get now?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thing is Depot, "Thousands of Dollars" isn't the same thing as "Free College". Hell, even my local U, Fresno State University, costs about $8,000 total when all is said and done for an Architecture degree, and if you take the medical starting program here its closer to $30,000 or $40,000, just for the first four years(before they pass you off to a real medical school). Before, all of that was payed for, including your dorm, and you got a reasonable amount of money to spend that on food/other bills.
locallyunscene: I'm just saying in my own head, thats how I associate them. I'd still make sure it was a statistic that was tracked very carefully and studied intensely, but I always thought of casualties as a good way to tell the effectiveness of your army in not getting itself killed in a battle. Just my own head.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1662280:date=Nov 29 2007, 02:29 PM:name=Quaunaut)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Quaunaut @ Nov 29 2007, 02:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1662280"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->locallyunscene: I'm just saying in my own head, thats how I associate them. I'd still make sure it was a statistic that was tracked very carefully and studied intensely, but I always thought of casualties as a good way to tell the effectiveness of your army in not getting itself killed in a battle. Just my own head.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree. I was approaching the statistics more from how they're used in the media. In terms of how the military should use the statistics I think you're dead on. I think the military would be aware of tetanus if there was a lot of rusty barbed wire, so again I agree with you.
QuaunautThe longest seven days in history...Join Date: 2003-03-21Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1662282:date=Nov 29 2007, 11:40 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Nov 29 2007, 11:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1662282"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree. I was approaching the statistics more from how they're used in the media. In terms of how the military should use the statistics I think you're dead on. I think the military would be aware of tetanus if there was a lot of rusty barbed wire, so again I agree with you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When it comes from the media, no one knows whats what. How they use it is unintelligible.
If we are to assume that the suicides are directly related to the war, perhaps the reason for higher suicides in Vietnam and Iraq veterans is that the soldiers are returning from service to an ungrateful nation?
<!--quoteo(post=1662250:date=Nov 29 2007, 09:37 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ Nov 29 2007, 09:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1662250"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But we've already had that discussion lolfighter, where link upon link to evidence that suggests that Depot's interpretation of the problem is out to lunch.
In general, Depot just posts random thoughts that support his favoured interpretation. He never posts anything remotely resembling evidence. Old Wives tales do not make for good scientific research.
You may as well blame microwave ovens for the trends Depot blames on Corporal punishment, as they both correlate equally with the problems he perceives in science.
This isn't to say that corporal punishment had no positive influence on individuals, but we need to be careful about correlating changes in society with random unconnected changes in behaviour.
Let me ask you Depot, how can you be sure that the increase in suicide is not just simply because these veterans have had a much more traumatic experience?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've not seen any evidence in this entire thread, only speculation and various opinions. No scientific proof, nothing, nada, zip, zilch. My opinion is worth as much as yours, and to me makes much more sense. I am not saying the increase in suicides isn't related to their wartime experiences, but I'm not saying it is related either.
<!--quoteo(post=1662280:date=Nov 29 2007, 02:29 PM:name=Quaunaut)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Quaunaut @ Nov 29 2007, 02:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1662280"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thing is Depot, "Thousands of Dollars" isn't the same thing as "Free College". Hell, even my local U, Fresno State University, costs about $8,000 total when all is said and done for an Architecture degree, and if you take the medical starting program here its closer to $30,000 or $40,000, just for the first four years(before they pass you off to a real medical school). Before, all of that was payed for, including your dorm, and you got a reasonable amount of money to spend that on food/other bills.
locallyunscene: I'm just saying in my own head, thats how I associate them. I'd still make sure it was a statistic that was tracked very carefully and studied intensely, but I always thought of casualties as a good way to tell the effectiveness of your army in not getting itself killed in a battle. Just my own head.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> My bad for not clarifying. I received several thousand dollars worth of schooling, not money. I want to know what veterans receive now as compared to 40 or 50 years ago.
Quick heads up, just in case anyone had it wrong: Tetanus isn't caused by rust, but by a bacterium (or more correctly an endospore) that rust provides a good habitat for.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1662299:date=Nov 29 2007, 05:35 PM:name=Depot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Depot @ Nov 29 2007, 05:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1662299"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've not seen any evidence in this entire thread, only speculation and various opinions. No scientific proof, nothing, nada, zip, zilch. My opinion is worth as much as yours, and to me makes much more sense. I am not saying the increase in suicides isn't related to their wartime experiences, but I'm not saying it is related either.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, I posted evidence. Veterans have a higher rate of PTSD. People with PTSD have a higher suicide rate, among other things. My source is Lt. Col. Dave Grossman.
Here's a corroborating source that also mentions Iraq war veterans[<a href="http://ptsd.about.com/od/prevalence/a/MilitaryPTSD.htm" target="_blank">Link</a>] The initial rate of PTSD in Iraqi war veterans appears to be the same as the initial rates in Persian Gulf War veterans and Vietnam veterans.
For that matter, there's that study mentioned in the article I linked in the beginning. If I remember correctly the article has links to the study itself.
<!--quoteo(post=1662340:date=Nov 29 2007, 11:17 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Nov 29 2007, 11:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1662340"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually, I posted evidence. Veterans have a higher rate of PTSD. People with PTSD have a higher suicide rate, among other things. My source is Lt. Col. Dave Grossman.
Here's a corroborating source that also mentions Iraq war veterans[<a href="http://ptsd.about.com/od/prevalence/a/MilitaryPTSD.htm" target="_blank">Link</a>] The initial rate of PTSD in Iraqi war veterans appears to be the same as the initial rates in Persian Gulf War veterans and Vietnam veterans.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You quoted statistics by someone that wrote a book, which I'm unable to confirm or deny accuracy wise. This is a far cry from a scientific study which would confirm wartime casualties due to suicide.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited November 2007
It's a far cry from a lot of things, but a crap load more than anything you have volounteered. Btw, my comments were more related to your constant support of beating kids for discipline despite constant evidence posted to suggest it isn't a good idea in general. In this topic, people *HAVE* posted more than just opinion, but you just continue to dismiss it.
Can you go and find something that supports your opinion? I know it won't prove anything, but it will at least show that you have company in your opinions. I presume you have seen evidence to support your opinion.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1662372:date=Nov 30 2007, 05:34 AM:name=Depot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Depot @ Nov 30 2007, 05:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1662372"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You quoted statistics by someone that wrote a book<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I quoted statistics by someone that is an expert on the subject matter. I also provided a corroborating source that had preliminary statistics for the Iraqi War. If you want to find the actual case studies you'll have to subscribe to some scientific journals. I can look up some of them in the endnotes of the book if you want. I'm only going to go through the trouble if you're actually going to try to find them though. You can get started on the sources for the link I provided. Here are the three most relevant, you can find the rest at the bottom of page of the link.<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Gray, G.C., Kaiser, K.S., Hawksworth, A.W., Hall, F.W., & Barrett-Connor, E. (1999). Increased postwar symptoms and psychological morbidity among US Navy Gulf War veterans. American Journal of Tropical Medicine and Hygiene, 60, 758-766.
Hoge, C.W., Castro, C.A., Messer, S.C., McGurk, D., Cotting, D.I., & Koffman, R.L. (2004). Combat duty in Iraq and Afghanistan, mental health problems, and barriers to care. New England Journal of Medicine, 351, 13-22.
Kulka, R.A., Schlenger, W.E., Fairbank, J.A., Hough, R.L., Jordan, B. K., Marmar, C.R., & Weiss, D.S. (1990). Trauma and the Vietnam war generation: Report of findings from the National Vietnam Veterans Readjustment Study. New York: Brunner/Mazel.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All I'm saying is the post-war suicide rate is probably higher now than it was in past wars because of the way youth are raised today, be it in the home or at school. That being said, why should these suicides be counted as a wartime casualty?
<!--quoteo(post=1662436:date=Nov 30 2007, 10:52 PM:name=Depot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Depot @ Nov 30 2007, 10:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1662436"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All I'm saying is the post-war suicide rate is probably higher now than it was in past wars because of the way youth are raised today, be it in the home or at school. That being said, why should these suicides be counted as a wartime casualty?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That being said, what leads you to say that? Less corporeal punishment (less pirates globally) causes more suicides (causes global warming)?
Sounds good to me. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" /> Less corporal punishment is responsible for a lot of what's wrong nowadays.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1662469:date=Nov 30 2007, 08:39 PM:name=Depot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Depot @ Nov 30 2007, 08:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1662469"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sounds good to me. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" /> Less corporal punishment is responsible for a lot of what's wrong nowadays.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> See, the problem is that you just keep harping the same thing over and over. It is like a scientist trying to discus religion with a true believer.
"Well I Know that god is X, Y and Z" "Can you give me any proof? data? studies? any thing?" "Well, those are not needed because these facts are obviously true"
Except that you COULD pull up facts on these things as they HAVE been studied and this is the real world we are talking about, not God.
Hell, pull up a correlation between suspension of corporal punishment and an increase in suicide rates.
(btw, any one that wants to understand my dislike of correlation and be amused at the same time should go read Freakanomics. My hatred of conclusions based on correlations comes from my parents being scientists, however Freakanomics is a great demonstration <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
QuaunautThe longest seven days in history...Join Date: 2003-03-21Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
Or, a cheaper alternative, thanks to lolfighter: <a href="http://www.venganza.org/about/open-letter/" target="_blank">http://www.venganza.org/about/open-letter/</a>
Obviously our lack of Pirates is causing Global Warming.
<!--quoteo(post=1662470:date=Dec 1 2007, 03:13 AM:name=Thansal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Thansal @ Dec 1 2007, 03:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1662470"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->See, the problem is that you just keep harping the same thing over and over. It is like a scientist trying to discus religion with a true believer.
"Well I Know that god is X, Y and Z" "Can you give me any proof? data? studies? any thing?" "Well, those are not needed because these facts are obviously true"
Except that you COULD pull up facts on these things as they HAVE been studied and this is the real world we are talking about, not God.
Hell, pull up a correlation between suspension of corporal punishment and an increase in suicide rates. (btw, any one that wants to understand my dislike of correlation and be amused at the same time should go read Freakanomics. My hatred of conclusions based on correlations comes from my parents being scientists, however Freakanomics is a great demonstration <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's funny that you should say it, because Freakonomics had some interesting things to say about parents who admitted to beating their children. VERY interesting.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1662504:date=Dec 1 2007, 08:14 AM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Dec 1 2007, 08:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1662504"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's funny that you should say it, because Freakonomics had some interesting things to say about parents who admitted to beating their children. VERY interesting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yah, I really should finish reading it at some point <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> (I tend to sorta flip through it randomly)
<!--quoteo(post=1662504:date=Dec 1 2007, 08:14 AM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Dec 1 2007, 08:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1662504"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's funny that you should say it, because Freakonomics had some interesting things to say about parents who admitted to beating their children. VERY interesting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Corporal punishment and beating are two different things, though.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Corporal punishment is the deliberate infliction of pain intended to change a person's behavior or to punish them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Worrying about how to define the two isn't necessary for this thread. Read both definitions in a dictionary and make your own decision. I see an obvious difference between the two. You obviously aren't willing to see any. So be it, move on.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited December 2007
What's scarey is that depot can continue to spout dogma without any supporting discussion. I propose that in future, we just ignore him when he tries to derail a conversation. To me it looks like he was clearly losing the discussion on veteran suicide, so he simply brought up the old corporal punishment topic to rathole the discussion.
<!--quoteo(post=1662961:date=Dec 5 2007, 08:48 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ Dec 5 2007, 08:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1662961"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What's scarey is that depot can continue to spout dogma without any supporting discussion. I propose that in future, we just ignore him when he tries to derail a conversation. To me it looks like he was clearly losing the discussion on veteran suicide, so he simply brought up the old corporal punishment topic to rathole the discussion.
What's even scarier is, it worked.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Truth has a way of doing that.
What we have here is nothing more than opinions anyway and other than one book being quoted no documentation. So carry on with your speculation.
Losing the discussion? Why do you feel a winner has to be declared here? Because you disagree with someone's opinion doesn't mean they're losing, it means you dislike their points of view, and refuse to think outside of your small box.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1663011:date=Dec 5 2007, 05:39 PM:name=Depot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Depot @ Dec 5 2007, 05:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1663011"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Truth has a way of doing that.
What we have here is nothing more than opinions anyway and other than one book being quoted no documentation. So carry on with your speculation.
Losing the discussion? Why do you feel a winner has to be declared here? Because you disagree with someone's opinion doesn't mean they're losing, it means you dislike their points of view, and refuse to think outside of your small box.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Until you back up what you say with facts, truth and what you say are not one and the same. He said you were losing because you have thus far not provided a shred of evidence. If we are basing "winning" or "losing" on truth, then I don't see how you can consider your arguments equal to the rest of the discussion here.
//Topic about veteran suicide successfully derailed
Comments
As to my stance on the topic at hand: No they should not be considered casualties, but it *should* be carefully studied by our Military Forces. Casualties I've always seen as from 100% direct causes of the war- a bullet wound, for example. I wouldn't even consider, necessarily, someone stepping on a nail and dying of Tetnis while in Iraq a Casualty, though we may in our statistics.
BUT, I'd still take notice of the amount of Tetnis deaths and see what we could do to prevent it- preventing suicide for this though is a big issue. I'd say one of the main things is, is that many are doing it once they are back home.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would say the Tetanus death would count as a wartime casualty. What if sharp rusted shrapnel were spread around by freedomfighters/insurgents/terrorists? My hard fast rule would be if you're a soldier in Iraq, and you died in Iraq then you're a wartime casualty. I think it would be a little disingenuous to call soldiers who came back and committed suicide civilian casualties of the war. I think it's also disingenuous to ignore the deaths completely in the statisitics because they weren't in Iraq at the time. Really they should be their own category but mentioned with wartime casualties. Such as "X soldiers died in Iraq this month and Y inactive soldiers committed sucide this month". Or "There were X military casualties this month. Y of those X were suicides in the States."
<!--quoteo(post=1662237:date=Nov 29 2007, 06:36 AM:name=Quaunaut)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Quaunaut @ Nov 29 2007, 06:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1662237"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This leads me to wonder: Could it have to do with post-war opportunities? I think we can all agree that the GI Bill secured so many great opportunities for our WW2 vets that it was insane, and the fact that the current system barely benefits being a Veteran is pretty ridiculous.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I definitely think that's part of it. How could you move on with your life if you have nothing to move on to? PTSD wasn't recognized by the U.S. Military as a real disorder for a long time. I'm not sure it's officially recognized by the military now. Of the possible reasons listed above, I'd say support of squadmates, support of Family/Friends/Politicians are most important. I entertain the idea that the "60 days of continuous combat" study coupled with the need of Iraq/Vietnam to constantly be on alert also plays a substantial role.
I am rather sure that the military acknowledges and has some systems to cope with PTSD.
I remember listening to a piece on NPR about psychologists attached to army units for dealing with these things. I honestly can't remember if it was in Iraq or back State side, but I know they are doing SOMETHING. However I do remember one of the problems was GETTING the soldiers to make use of the resources.
Thing is Depot, "Thousands of Dollars" isn't the same thing as "Free College". Hell, even my local U, Fresno State University, costs about $8,000 total when all is said and done for an Architecture degree, and if you take the medical starting program here its closer to $30,000 or $40,000, just for the first four years(before they pass you off to a real medical school). Before, all of that was payed for, including your dorm, and you got a reasonable amount of money to spend that on food/other bills.
locallyunscene: I'm just saying in my own head, thats how I associate them. I'd still make sure it was a statistic that was tracked very carefully and studied intensely, but I always thought of casualties as a good way to tell the effectiveness of your army in not getting itself killed in a battle. Just my own head.
I agree. I was approaching the statistics more from how they're used in the media. In terms of how the military should use the statistics I think you're dead on. I think the military would be aware of tetanus if there was a lot of rusty barbed wire, so again I agree with you.
When it comes from the media, no one knows whats what. How they use it is unintelligible.
In general, Depot just posts random thoughts that support his favoured interpretation. He never posts anything remotely resembling evidence. Old Wives tales do not make for good scientific research.
You may as well blame microwave ovens for the trends Depot blames on Corporal punishment, as they both correlate equally with the problems he perceives in science.
This isn't to say that corporal punishment had no positive influence on individuals, but we need to be careful about correlating changes in society with random unconnected changes in behaviour.
Let me ask you Depot, how can you be sure that the increase in suicide is not just simply because these veterans have had a much more traumatic experience?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've not seen any evidence in this entire thread, only speculation and various opinions. No scientific proof, nothing, nada, zip, zilch. My opinion is worth as much as yours, and to me makes much more sense. I am not saying the increase in suicides isn't related to their wartime experiences, but I'm not saying it is related either.
<!--quoteo(post=1662280:date=Nov 29 2007, 02:29 PM:name=Quaunaut)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Quaunaut @ Nov 29 2007, 02:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1662280"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thing is Depot, "Thousands of Dollars" isn't the same thing as "Free College". Hell, even my local U, Fresno State University, costs about $8,000 total when all is said and done for an Architecture degree, and if you take the medical starting program here its closer to $30,000 or $40,000, just for the first four years(before they pass you off to a real medical school). Before, all of that was payed for, including your dorm, and you got a reasonable amount of money to spend that on food/other bills.
locallyunscene: I'm just saying in my own head, thats how I associate them. I'd still make sure it was a statistic that was tracked very carefully and studied intensely, but I always thought of casualties as a good way to tell the effectiveness of your army in not getting itself killed in a battle. Just my own head.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My bad for not clarifying. I received several thousand dollars worth of schooling, not money. I want to know what veterans receive now as compared to 40 or 50 years ago.
Actually, I posted evidence. Veterans have a higher rate of PTSD. People with PTSD have a higher suicide rate, among other things. My source is Lt. Col. Dave Grossman.
Here's a corroborating source that also mentions Iraq war veterans[<a href="http://ptsd.about.com/od/prevalence/a/MilitaryPTSD.htm" target="_blank">Link</a>]
The initial rate of PTSD in Iraqi war veterans appears to be the same as the initial rates in Persian Gulf War veterans and Vietnam veterans.
Here's a corroborating source that also mentions Iraq war veterans[<a href="http://ptsd.about.com/od/prevalence/a/MilitaryPTSD.htm" target="_blank">Link</a>]
The initial rate of PTSD in Iraqi war veterans appears to be the same as the initial rates in Persian Gulf War veterans and Vietnam veterans.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You quoted statistics by someone that wrote a book, which I'm unable to confirm or deny accuracy wise. This is a far cry from a scientific study which would confirm wartime casualties due to suicide.
Can you go and find something that supports your opinion? I know it won't prove anything, but it will at least show that you have company in your opinions. I presume you have seen evidence to support your opinion.
I quoted statistics by someone that is an expert on the subject matter. I also provided a corroborating source that had preliminary statistics for the Iraqi War. If you want to find the actual case studies you'll have to subscribe to some scientific journals. I can look up some of them in the endnotes of the book if you want. I'm only going to go through the trouble if you're actually going to try to find them though. You can get started on the sources for the link I provided. Here are the three most relevant, you can find the rest at the bottom of page of the link.<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Gray, G.C., Kaiser, K.S., Hawksworth, A.W., Hall, F.W., & Barrett-Connor, E. (1999). Increased postwar symptoms and psychological morbidity among US Navy Gulf War veterans. American Journal of Tropical Medicine and Hygiene, 60, 758-766.
Hoge, C.W., Castro, C.A., Messer, S.C., McGurk, D., Cotting, D.I., & Koffman, R.L. (2004). Combat duty in Iraq and Afghanistan, mental health problems, and barriers to care. New England Journal of Medicine, 351, 13-22.
Kulka, R.A., Schlenger, W.E., Fairbank, J.A., Hough, R.L., Jordan, B. K., Marmar, C.R., & Weiss, D.S. (1990). Trauma and the Vietnam war generation: Report of findings from the National Vietnam Veterans Readjustment Study. New York: Brunner/Mazel.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That being said, what leads you to say that? Less corporeal punishment (less pirates globally) causes more suicides (causes global warming)?
See, the problem is that you just keep harping the same thing over and over. It is like a scientist trying to discus religion with a true believer.
"Well I Know that god is X, Y and Z"
"Can you give me any proof? data? studies? any thing?"
"Well, those are not needed because these facts are obviously true"
Except that you COULD pull up facts on these things as they HAVE been studied and this is the real world we are talking about, not God.
Hell, pull up a correlation between suspension of corporal punishment and an increase in suicide rates.
(btw, any one that wants to understand my dislike of correlation and be amused at the same time should go read Freakanomics. My hatred of conclusions based on correlations comes from my parents being scientists, however Freakanomics is a great demonstration <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Obviously our lack of Pirates is causing Global Warming.
"Well I Know that god is X, Y and Z"
"Can you give me any proof? data? studies? any thing?"
"Well, those are not needed because these facts are obviously true"
Except that you COULD pull up facts on these things as they HAVE been studied and this is the real world we are talking about, not God.
Hell, pull up a correlation between suspension of corporal punishment and an increase in suicide rates.
(btw, any one that wants to understand my dislike of correlation and be amused at the same time should go read Freakanomics. My hatred of conclusions based on correlations comes from my parents being scientists, however Freakanomics is a great demonstration <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's funny that you should say it, because Freakonomics had some interesting things to say about parents who admitted to beating their children. VERY interesting.
Yah, I really should finish reading it at some point <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> (I tend to sorta flip through it randomly)
Corporal punishment and beating are two different things, though.
Corporal Punishment: Spanking
Beating your child: Actually beating your child
I've gotta side with the others on this thing: Corporal Punishment and Beating are two entirely different things.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Corporal punishment is the deliberate infliction of pain intended to change a person's behavior or to punish them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What's even scarier is, it worked.
What's even scarier is, it worked.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Truth has a way of doing that.
What we have here is nothing more than opinions anyway and other than one book being quoted no documentation. So carry on with your speculation.
Losing the discussion? Why do you feel a winner has to be declared here? Because you disagree with someone's opinion doesn't mean they're losing, it means you dislike their points of view, and refuse to think outside of your small box.
What we have here is nothing more than opinions anyway and other than one book being quoted no documentation. So carry on with your speculation.
Losing the discussion? Why do you feel a winner has to be declared here? Because you disagree with someone's opinion doesn't mean they're losing, it means you dislike their points of view, and refuse to think outside of your small box.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Until you back up what you say with facts, truth and what you say are not one and the same. He said you were losing because you have thus far not provided a shred of evidence. If we are basing "winning" or "losing" on truth, then I don't see how you can consider your arguments equal to the rest of the discussion here.
//Topic about veteran suicide successfully derailed