I would say add it in, but make an option to enable/disable it on certain servers or for clients, this meaning that the marines would need a downside such as them having a flashlight that could turn off and take a while to turn back on and so on.
the view rotation make me dizzy <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/asrifle.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::asrifle::" border="0" alt="asrifle.gif" />
While I think that idea is very cool, I think that it would make the game a lot harder to play...
It would be harder to leap off walls at marines (would your view stay oriented as if the wall was the ground? or would your view revert to the ground being the gound?)
and I know personally that all that view switching would give me motion sickness
Well i agree with Azkar, the idea is very cool but how the ###### u want to know where the earth is ? I wouldn't put this feature in yet! How the ###### you want to walljump? How the hell you should know where the ground is ? and so on.... Maybe a small "compass" would help.. Still i wouldnt get it into the game, just to difficult to orientate!
Wall walking is just as walking on the ground, it isnt benefitial. The movement is easy to aim at. Jumping is harder. Only if you have more skulks or a fade, walking on the wall is usefull. the rotation makes the skulks weaker.
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1665065:date=Dec 24 2007, 07:30 AM:name=PogoP)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PogoP @ Dec 24 2007, 07:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665065"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wall-walking as a skulk is really quite difficult to do. It doesn't feel right as it is now, you seem to fall off too much.
I'm all for an intuitive wall-walking view rotation!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You confuse "sounds simple and correct" with "intuitive." Intuitive would mean that it makes sense and is fluid and easy to use by nature, however flipping views around as you change surfaces does nothing initially but confuse you. It's a learned skill, much like combining wall walking/bhop/leap is now, 5 years later most people still don't get how to do it. This won't be any better, people will be puking trying to skulk.
describing wall walking as intuitive is a matter of opinion there is no right or wrong. it may be the easy logical for some and disoritentating for others.
to me its logical and intuitive where ever my feet are the bottom of the screan should be, but to others its a rotating world is disorientating. i played avp before ns so my opinion is open to bias, but i dont recall it takeing me that long to learn it about 15mins probs to get fairly capable at it.
Its really not hard to wallwalk. Just realize that once your view goes past the horizon (as in its looking away [down] from the ceiling, or [left/right] from the wall), then you'll fall off the wall.
If you want to walk on the ceiling, make sure your view never goes below the horizon; this can be difficult when you're trying to look down at an enemy. I find the best way to walk on a ceiling when in or approaching combat is to use the strafe keys; this ensures you won't be pushing your body off the wall (it keeps your movement perfectly centered on the horizon), while keeping you on the ceiling. Takes some getting used to though.
<!--quoteo(post=1665065:date=Dec 24 2007, 09:30 PM:name=PogoP)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PogoP @ Dec 24 2007, 09:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665065"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wall-walking as a skulk is really quite difficult to do. It doesn't feel right as it is now, you seem to fall off too much.
I'm all for an intuitive wall-walking view rotation!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1665086:date=Dec 25 2007, 06:42 AM:name=TheAdj)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TheAdj @ Dec 25 2007, 06:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665086"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You confuse "sounds simple and correct" with "intuitive." Intuitive would mean that it makes sense and is fluid and easy to use by nature, however flipping views around as you change surfaces does nothing initially but confuse you. It's a learned skill, much like combining wall walking/bhop/leap is now, 5 years later most people still don't get how to do it. This won't be any better, people will be puking trying to skulk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm -pretty- sure what PogoP meant is that - if UWE managed to make wall-walking view rotation -intuitive- he'd be all for it. He's not saying that wall-walking view rotation -itself- is intuitive. And I'd agree, it just adds to the immersion (plus it 'feels' weird being on the ceiling - and others seeing you upside-down - yet 'up' is still up) - but yeah, only so long as it doesn't detract from the gameplay, or make things needlessly complicated.
I've gotta wonder though, would it be harder or easier for players newer to the NS franchise to pick it up? I'm just thinking of the old adage "you can't teach an old dog new tricks."
Walljumping itself doesnt make sense, it isnt realistic. Are we sure we still have walljumping in NS2? In third person view the skulk is jumping from his hips :/
<!--quoteo(post=1664881:date=Dec 22 2007, 08:35 AM:name=NEX9)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NEX9 @ Dec 22 2007, 08:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664881"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I do not know if its been said yet, BUT make the skulks bottom jaw drasticly visualy different from the top jaw, then Keep the view the same but rotate the Vmodel inside the skulks mouth depending on its surface.
and yes even in that little clip it reminds me of how nausiating AvP is
oh and on sticks salive Note hell yeah<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I third this as an awesome idea as an option to be explored. Clever, functional, and non nauseating for the win.
<!--quoteo(post=1665258:date=Dec 26 2007, 02:18 PM:name=digz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(digz @ Dec 26 2007, 02:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665258"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=1664881:date=Dec 22 2007, 11:35 PM:name=NEX9)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NEX9 @ Dec 22 2007, 11:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664881"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I do not know if its been said yet, BUT make the skulks bottom jaw drasticly visualy different from the top jaw, then Keep the view the same but rotate the Vmodel inside the skulks mouth depending on its surface.
and yes even in that little clip it reminds me of how nausiating AvP is
oh and on sticks salive Note hell yeah<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I third this as an awesome idea as an option to be explored. Clever, functional, and non nauseating for the win. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> yeah i agree. IF skulk view rotation doesn't work out as hoped - then use this instead.
(btw, <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> has flayra or anyone else yet explained how it is that skulks and lerks? see from inside their mouths? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />)
Why?: Although it needs some training; there are some little things that are cool.
<b>Immersion:</b> Being an alien was never a human like thing.
<b>Not being glued on wall (bug?).</b> When ambushing, you like.. huhumm. You want to use surprise to make sure you will, at least, hit the enemy one time. With the actual system you can't do that in all the situation. When you are glued on a wall (not a cieling), If you press jump, nothing happens. The NATURAL movement would be a jump but instead of being vertical it would be horizontal. On a cieling it just unglue you. You have to get leap to make a proper acceleration.
Leap is the upgrade that makes it more interesting. In big alleys like we can see on ns_veil (close to MS) leaping from left wall to right wall (or any other combinaison) can help dodging bullets and also as you pilot (vue like a plane) the skulk, it is much easier to keep the target in sight.
As a fade. I would call it a delicacy.
<b>It helps walking on any wall</b> As you pilot it like a plane (can do looping) the way you walk on walks and cieling change. How many time i fell on the ground (and got busted) because of a incompatibility of movement and wall angle. Even worse sometime it just blocks you. The same kind of block when you are on the ground cloaked, walking and try to go up to the cieling without a jump. Sometimes it's a tricky job.
<b>Enable new strategy</b> As you move differently, you have to consider that strategy change. If it is easier to get to a spot because of that, marins have to consider it differently. Ambushing would probably change.
<b>Enable new possibilities for maping</b> Hive could have more vents and obsticles inside as alien can move faster and easier in there. Meaning it becomes a problem for a JP or single marin. This opens a lot more possibilities than todays system.
I think it would be good if view rotation was added. It makes use for some nice features, like being able to sidestep up & down walls, aswell as "rotating" around hallway with relative ease. This would preferably come with "wall-stick", so that you won't fall off by mistake. This would make skulks able to walk around corners on walls, and down/up walls and creaks more smothely and fast. Jumping should make you move "up" on your screen, meaning, if you are running on the wall, towards the opposite wall.
To make things less nauseaus, I think the camera angle would change gradually, like if you jump from one wall to another, the view should rotate during the entire space, leaving you straight in the mittle of the jump, and done turning then you impact with the other wall.
I have played AvP 2 pretty much, and I think I know what they did wrong there, was making the base on wich your view orginate from to small. The effect was if you walked over a small ledge, like this: __|||__ , your view would "jump" alot. To help prevent this, the base on wich your vision would orginate from, would be the entire (or a long part) of the skulk model. Say you walked on the wall, coming to a corner, your view would start to bend as the front of your body reaches the corner, and continue bending untill your body is fully around the corner.
To conclude, I think view rotation would be a great way to bring wall and ceiling combat to the next level. You can't really rush forward to an enemy base on the wall, jump over to the opposite wall and sidestep onto the deiling, then leap down on the marines now.
I dont really understand why this cant be simply added as an option. Saying that not allowing to choose view rotation is suppose to be "clearly" the better option just isnt right. Some people can handle the rotation side effects while others cant.
Theres obvious disadvantages of using the rotation but you do gain some "freedom" of movement. Ive played AvP's and a lot of the problems from "disorientation" also comes from the fact how its made, including the levels. When they use handful of almost identical textures for walls and ceilings, pitch black lighting, its no wonder you get problems. Some of the worst places to be in AvP were the airducts. Also the rotation of the view is so fast that most of the time you just have to know in advance which way it will rotate because its impossible to tell from just looking at the screen.
Also i remember that they had "two arrow" system as a "helper" in the hud. I think if you were on a wall, you couldnt really tell which way was up/down because it shows just two "arrows" on the sides of the screen pointing horizontally. However, if you were on the ceiling, you have one arrow on the top of the screen and so on. Also i think it only showed complete 45 degree rotations in the hud.
View rotation might not be the perfect solution, but neither is not being able to do it at all.
The AvP rotation was awesome 95% of the time. I agree it was the level design that made that game confusing, not the rotating view. If they can make it as good as the AvP2 view rotation I"m all for it.
I think NS2 can't handle view rotation. IMO the maps of NS are already the most complicated in practically any game. Skulks need to learn the hiding spots all over every map, and more than half of them are off the floor.
If the players already knew the maps well, the view rotation could be cool. But when players dont know the maps, the view rotation will hinder their ability to learn, and badly. Its hard enough learning the ceilings of maps (especially almost no other game requires this so it seems so different), but add in a completely view realignment and suddenly the player is overwhelmed.
The AVP games were awesome, but I think view rotation should be left to them. I loved the idea of the view rotation, but when it came to practice, as soon as I got onto a wall/ceiling I was completely lost. From there I could only really use visible marines as landmarks for navigation; if none were visible, I'd just kinda run around and hope that what I came up to was a door leading somewhere useful. Usually it wasn't, and as soon as i let go, I'd fall in a completely other direction.
IMO its simply not worth all the hassle, but if you really must, set it to default on, but let the players turn it off if they choose. Some will express that one is better than the other, both ways.
But really, I think the devs already have way, way too much on their plate to be spending time on something as uncritical as this.
hmm... so... you're concerned it'll make the <b>skulk</b> less useable - but really, aren't they trying to downplay the role of the skulk in NS2 anyway? since NS had something like aliens going skulk 90% of the time. and skulk being one of the most advanced (in terms of skill) aliens. sure, a lot of the fun with playing on the alien team in NS was from playing skulk, but it's the default unevolved alien - it has too much importance for its position. plus, it was much, much too hard for new players to get into - and i don't care what you say, NS2 needs new players, it can't rely on the hardcore fanboys with biased views and elitist attitudes. so. you either kill the utility and learning curve of the skulk, or perhaps you choose something else as the 'starting class' and have the skulk become an early evolution.
My take on the aliens is that the skulks are supposed to be viable in the endgame. I've always seen the skulks as the basic foot soldiers and the other forms as specialized classes. Certainly unevolved skulks are pretty worthless; it takes a couple upgrades to make them hold their own against upgraded marines. The skulk has to be a relatively effective class or aliens would be hard pressed to recover from any sort of income loss.
It's definitely going to take some playtesting to sort this one out. My gut feeling is that people who can handle and enjoy playing a melee only class will be fairly skilled gamers, and thus able to deal with the view rotation. The fact that the skulk is melee only is probably a bigger barrier for new players than anything else.
Looks like an interesting concept. My idea: Uncap the vertical look for skulks so you can rotate a full circle by just looking up (like dystopia). Keep the way everything else the way it is in terms of walking on walls; don't turn the view automatically so people who want more immersion can just look up, and people who want to play like before are able to. Then just make it automatically reorient everything smoothly on the real ground if you're looking up or down further than 90 degrees (like dystopia again).
<!--quoteo(post=1665410:date=Dec 28 2007, 03:51 PM:name=kopaka649)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kopaka649 @ Dec 28 2007, 03:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665410"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Looks like an interesting concept. My idea: Uncap the vertical look for skulks so you can rotate a full circle by just looking up (like dystopia). Keep the way everything else the way it is in terms of walking on walls; don't turn the view automatically so people who want more immersion can just look up, and people who want to play like before are able to. Then just make it automatically reorient everything smoothly on the real ground if you're looking up or down further than 90 degrees (like dystopia again).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> damn. i really need to play this dystopia. i've heard a lot about it. (and i've no idea what you're going on about here -- maybe if i played dystopia i'd know)
hi all, im new <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
i think the view rotation is to complikatet
in NS, i hate it that i cant look to the other side or down, while i'm on the walls
my idea is that you wall walk like NS but when you press crouch
youre fixt on this wall
you can`t jump or go to a other wall once you disable it when you press crouch again
that make it easyer for new guys to wall-walk
(sorry for my bad enghlish) <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
edit : all guys who will view rotation load and play now this game --> <a href="http://tremulous.net/files/" target="_blank">http://tremulous.net/files/</a>
Darktimes, try using your Shift key. It will make aliens stick a lot more to the wall. If you're on a flat surface, you cant get off the wall. If you're going around a 90 degree turn, as long as you are looking at the other side within 90 degrees, you'll make it around the turn without falling. It works pretty nicely, but it does slow you down significantly.
Harimau... <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->hmm... so... you're concerned it'll make the skulk less useable - but really, aren't they trying to downplay the role of the skulk in NS2 anyway? since NS had something like aliens going skulk 90% of the time. and skulk being one of the most advanced (in terms of skill) aliens. sure, a lot of the fun with playing on the alien team in NS was from playing skulk, but it's the default unevolved alien - it has too much importance for its position. plus, it was much, much too hard for new players to get into - and i don't care what you say, NS2 needs new players, it can't rely on the hardcore fanboys with biased views and elitist attitudes. so. you either kill the utility and learning curve of the skulk, or perhaps you choose something else as the 'starting class' and have the skulk become an early evolution.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wtf? Never make a class less usable. And then you go on about how they need to be more usable? I dont know why you went into another elitist rant, either...
But it does sound like you should comment on this other post i made about a <a href="http://unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=103385" target="_blank"><u>new, more newb-friendly starting class</u></a>, which imo is exactly what NS2 needs (without changing the current skulk whatsoever).
<!--quoteo(post=1665472:date=Dec 28 2007, 12:48 PM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Dec 28 2007, 12:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665472"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Darktimes, try using your Shift key.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> *walk key.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I dont know why you went into another elitist rant, either...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Clear lower class attitude. Anyone who is better obviously doesn't know what they are talking about because their elitist attitudes get in the way of their thinking.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But it does sound like you should comment on this other post i made about a <a href="http://unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=103385" target="_blank"><u>new, more newb-friendly starting class</u></a>, which imo is exactly what NS2 needs (without changing the current skulk whatsoever).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, NS2 needs to be a HP battle. Forsake all skill, just turn it into a number crunching game.
Taking the "wall walk" button a step further, why not make it the secondary fire for the skulk?
The player just runs around like a helpless bunny rabbit (hint hint), then when you decide to climb a wall, press and hold mouse 2 and up you go.
This would prevent new players from becoming disoriented every time they bumped up against a wall or crate or whatever. This would make it a "I am conciously doing this and want my view flipped around" sort of thing rather than a "omg where did that marine I was biting at go!" sort of thing. This also has the effect of making it more of an ability, like lerks flapping, onos charging, and fade blinking. It sort of seperates it from the basic movement abilities. Don't want to become disoriented? Don't touch that button until you get comfortable with the basic movements in the game!
Plus, how many new players want to use wall walking when trying to kill something anyway? (Upside down kill achievements for advanced users? :o)
The reason I say make it a bind for the mouse 2 is because really, you aren't using that button for anything important right now are you? (I haven't followed any of the podcasts) In NS1 it's the popup menu. The best thing I ever did was move the popup to mouse 3 and make my second mouse button my fade blink in 3.2. I hated fading before that, I fail at weapon switch. But after that, it just felt so natural.
This got me thinking, why not for the skulk wall walk too? Particularly with rotating view.
You know, you can already "toggle" wall-walking by holding down ctrl. Since this shut off wall-walking, you view would no longer rotate. Basically, then you learned to use the shulk without walls, it's just to try using it with walls and ceilings, the more accustomed to this you become.
Comments
I'm all for an intuitive wall-walking view rotation!
It would be harder to leap off walls at marines (would your view stay oriented as if the wall was the ground? or would your view revert to the ground being the gound?)
and I know personally that all that view switching would give me motion sickness
How the ###### you want to walljump? How the hell you should know where the ground is ? and so on....
Maybe a small "compass" would help.. Still i wouldnt get it into the game, just to difficult to orientate!
I'm all for an intuitive wall-walking view rotation!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You confuse "sounds simple and correct" with "intuitive." Intuitive would mean that it makes sense and is fluid and easy to use by nature, however flipping views around as you change surfaces does nothing initially but confuse you. It's a learned skill, much like combining wall walking/bhop/leap is now, 5 years later most people still don't get how to do it. This won't be any better, people will be puking trying to skulk.
to me its logical and intuitive where ever my feet are the bottom of the screan should be, but to others its a rotating world is disorientating. i played avp before ns so my opinion is open to bias, but i dont recall it takeing me that long to learn it about 15mins probs to get fairly capable at it.
If you want to walk on the ceiling, make sure your view never goes below the horizon; this can be difficult when you're trying to look down at an enemy. I find the best way to walk on a ceiling when in or approaching combat is to use the strafe keys; this ensures you won't be pushing your body off the wall (it keeps your movement perfectly centered on the horizon), while keeping you on the ceiling. Takes some getting used to though.
a little complicated but still works. every system has it pros and contras
I'm all for an intuitive wall-walking view rotation!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1665086:date=Dec 25 2007, 06:42 AM:name=TheAdj)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TheAdj @ Dec 25 2007, 06:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1665086"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You confuse "sounds simple and correct" with "intuitive." Intuitive would mean that it makes sense and is fluid and easy to use by nature, however flipping views around as you change surfaces does nothing initially but confuse you. It's a learned skill, much like combining wall walking/bhop/leap is now, 5 years later most people still don't get how to do it. This won't be any better, people will be puking trying to skulk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm -pretty- sure what PogoP meant is that - if UWE managed to make wall-walking view rotation -intuitive- he'd be all for it. He's not saying that wall-walking view rotation -itself- is intuitive. And I'd agree, it just adds to the immersion (plus it 'feels' weird being on the ceiling - and others seeing you upside-down - yet 'up' is still up) - but yeah, only so long as it doesn't detract from the gameplay, or make things needlessly complicated.
I've gotta wonder though, would it be harder or easier for players newer to the NS franchise to pick it up? I'm just thinking of the old adage "you can't teach an old dog new tricks."
and yes even in that little clip it reminds me of how nausiating AvP is
oh and on sticks salive Note hell yeah<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I third this as an awesome idea as an option to be explored. Clever, functional, and non nauseating for the win.
I do not know if its been said yet, BUT make the skulks bottom jaw drasticly visualy different from the top jaw, then Keep the view the same but rotate the Vmodel inside the skulks mouth depending on its surface.
and yes even in that little clip it reminds me of how nausiating AvP is
oh and on sticks salive Note hell yeah<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I third this as an awesome idea as an option to be explored. Clever, functional, and non nauseating for the win.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah i agree. IF skulk view rotation doesn't work out as hoped - then use this instead.
(btw, <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> has flayra or anyone else yet explained how it is that skulks and lerks? see from inside their mouths? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />)
Why?: Although it needs some training; there are some little things that are cool.
<b>Immersion:</b>
Being an alien was never a human like thing.
<b>Not being glued on wall (bug?).</b>
When ambushing, you like.. huhumm. You want to use surprise to make sure you will, at least, hit the enemy one time. With the actual system you can't do that in all the situation. When you are glued on a wall (not a cieling), If you press jump, nothing happens. The NATURAL movement would be a jump but instead of being vertical it would be horizontal. On a cieling it just unglue you. You have to get leap to make a proper acceleration.
Leap is the upgrade that makes it more interesting. In big alleys like we can see on ns_veil (close to MS) leaping from left wall to right wall (or any other combinaison) can help dodging bullets and also as you pilot (vue like a plane) the skulk, it is much easier to keep the target in sight.
As a fade. I would call it a delicacy.
<b>It helps walking on any wall</b>
As you pilot it like a plane (can do looping) the way you walk on walks and cieling change. How many time i fell on the ground (and got busted) because of a incompatibility of movement and wall angle. Even worse sometime it just blocks you. The same kind of block when you are on the ground cloaked, walking and try to go up to the cieling without a jump. Sometimes it's a tricky job.
<b>Enable new strategy</b>
As you move differently, you have to consider that strategy change. If it is easier to get to a spot because of that, marins have to consider it differently. Ambushing would probably change.
<b>Enable new possibilities for maping</b>
Hive could have more vents and obsticles inside as alien can move faster and easier in there. Meaning it becomes a problem for a JP or single marin. This opens a lot more possibilities than todays system.
My 2 cents
To make things less nauseaus, I think the camera angle would change gradually, like if you jump from one wall to another, the view should rotate during the entire space, leaving you straight in the mittle of the jump, and done turning then you impact with the other wall.
I have played AvP 2 pretty much, and I think I know what they did wrong there, was making the base on wich your view orginate from to small. The effect was if you walked over a small ledge, like this: __|||__ , your view would "jump" alot. To help prevent this, the base on wich your vision would orginate from, would be the entire (or a long part) of the skulk model. Say you walked on the wall, coming to a corner, your view would start to bend as the front of your body reaches the corner, and continue bending untill your body is fully around the corner.
To conclude, I think view rotation would be a great way to bring wall and ceiling combat to the next level. You can't really rush forward to an enemy base on the wall, jump over to the opposite wall and sidestep onto the deiling, then leap down on the marines now.
Regards
Fluid Core
Theres obvious disadvantages of using the rotation but you do gain some "freedom" of movement. Ive played AvP's and a lot of the problems from "disorientation" also comes from the fact how its made, including the levels. When they use handful of almost identical textures for walls and ceilings, pitch black lighting, its no wonder you get problems. Some of the worst places to be in AvP were the airducts. Also the rotation of the view is so fast that most of the time you just have to know in advance which way it will rotate because its impossible to tell from just looking at the screen.
Also i remember that they had "two arrow" system as a "helper" in the hud. I think if you were on a wall, you couldnt really tell which way was up/down because it shows just two "arrows" on the sides of the screen pointing horizontally. However, if you were on the ceiling, you have one arrow on the top of the screen and so on. Also i think it only showed complete 45 degree rotations in the hud.
View rotation might not be the perfect solution, but neither is not being able to do it at all.
I think NS2 can't handle view rotation. IMO the maps of NS are already the most complicated in practically any game. Skulks need to learn the hiding spots all over every map, and more than half of them are off the floor.
If the players already knew the maps well, the view rotation could be cool. But when players dont know the maps, the view rotation will hinder their ability to learn, and badly. Its hard enough learning the ceilings of maps (especially almost no other game requires this so it seems so different), but add in a completely view realignment and suddenly the player is overwhelmed.
The AVP games were awesome, but I think view rotation should be left to them. I loved the idea of the view rotation, but when it came to practice, as soon as I got onto a wall/ceiling I was completely lost. From there I could only really use visible marines as landmarks for navigation; if none were visible, I'd just kinda run around and hope that what I came up to was a door leading somewhere useful. Usually it wasn't, and as soon as i let go, I'd fall in a completely other direction.
IMO its simply not worth all the hassle, but if you really must, set it to default on, but let the players turn it off if they choose. Some will express that one is better than the other, both ways.
But really, I think the devs already have way, way too much on their plate to be spending time on something as uncritical as this.
It's definitely going to take some playtesting to sort this one out. My gut feeling is that people who can handle and enjoy playing a melee only class will be fairly skilled gamers, and thus able to deal with the view rotation. The fact that the skulk is melee only is probably a bigger barrier for new players than anything else.
My idea: Uncap the vertical look for skulks so you can rotate a full circle by just looking up (like dystopia). Keep the way everything else the way it is in terms of walking on walls; don't turn the view automatically so people who want more immersion can just look up, and people who want to play like before are able to. Then just make it automatically reorient everything smoothly on the real ground if you're looking up or down further than 90 degrees (like dystopia again).
My idea: Uncap the vertical look for skulks so you can rotate a full circle by just looking up (like dystopia). Keep the way everything else the way it is in terms of walking on walls; don't turn the view automatically so people who want more immersion can just look up, and people who want to play like before are able to. Then just make it automatically reorient everything smoothly on the real ground if you're looking up or down further than 90 degrees (like dystopia again).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
damn. i really need to play this dystopia. i've heard a lot about it. (and i've no idea what you're going on about here -- maybe if i played dystopia i'd know)
i think the view rotation
is to complikatet
in NS, i hate it that i cant look to the other side or down, while i'm on the walls
my idea is that you wall walk like NS
but when you press crouch
youre fixt on this wall
you can`t jump or go to a other wall
once you disable it when you press crouch again
that make it easyer for new guys
to wall-walk
(sorry for my bad enghlish) <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
edit : all guys who will view rotation load and play now this game --> <a href="http://tremulous.net/files/" target="_blank">http://tremulous.net/files/</a>
Harimau...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->hmm... so... you're concerned it'll make the skulk less useable - but really, aren't they trying to downplay the role of the skulk in NS2 anyway? since NS had something like aliens going skulk 90% of the time. and skulk being one of the most advanced (in terms of skill) aliens. sure, a lot of the fun with playing on the alien team in NS was from playing skulk, but it's the default unevolved alien - it has too much importance for its position. plus, it was much, much too hard for new players to get into - and i don't care what you say, NS2 needs new players, it can't rely on the hardcore fanboys with biased views and elitist attitudes. so. you either kill the utility and learning curve of the skulk, or perhaps you choose something else as the 'starting class' and have the skulk become an early evolution.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wtf? Never make a class less usable. And then you go on about how they need to be more usable? I dont know why you went into another elitist rant, either...
But it does sound like you should comment on this other post i made about a <a href="http://unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=103385" target="_blank"><u>new, more newb-friendly starting class</u></a>, which imo is exactly what NS2 needs (without changing the current skulk whatsoever).
*walk key.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I dont know why you went into another elitist rant, either...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Clear lower class attitude. Anyone who is better obviously doesn't know what they are talking about because their elitist attitudes get in the way of their thinking.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But it does sound like you should comment on this other post i made about a <a href="http://unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=103385" target="_blank"><u>new, more newb-friendly starting class</u></a>, which imo is exactly what NS2 needs (without changing the current skulk whatsoever).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, NS2 needs to be a HP battle. Forsake all skill, just turn it into a number crunching game.
HI I HAVE MORE HP THAN YOU, I WIN.
The player just runs around like a helpless bunny rabbit (hint hint), then when you decide to climb a wall, press and hold mouse 2 and up you go.
This would prevent new players from becoming disoriented every time they bumped up against a wall or crate or whatever. This would make it a "I am conciously doing this and want my view flipped around" sort of thing rather than a "omg where did that marine I was biting at go!" sort of thing. This also has the effect of making it more of an ability, like lerks flapping, onos charging, and fade blinking. It sort of seperates it from the basic movement abilities. Don't want to become disoriented? Don't touch that button until you get comfortable with the basic movements in the game!
Plus, how many new players want to use wall walking when trying to kill something anyway? (Upside down kill achievements for advanced users? :o)
The reason I say make it a bind for the mouse 2 is because really, you aren't using that button for anything important right now are you? (I haven't followed any of the podcasts) In NS1 it's the popup menu. The best thing I ever did was move the popup to mouse 3 and make my second mouse button my fade blink in 3.2. I hated fading before that, I fail at weapon switch. But after that, it just felt so natural.
This got me thinking, why not for the skulk wall walk too? Particularly with rotating view.
Well, that's just my 2 cents on the matter.