locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1668699:date=Jan 28 2008, 01:48 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Flayra @ Jan 28 2008, 01:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1668699"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only reason I think we will have an Alien Comm at all is to unify the resource model and make the game more uniform and balanced at all server sizes. -Charlie<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'll remember that in future posts. Maybe it's time to post again in the Marine Weapon System thread.
Kind of an addition to what MarcusAurelius said, or more of an idea play off of it....
Since there are 3 hives, would there be a possibility of 3 alien commanders? So one alien commander per hive....? That would result in some interesting gameplay.
And on the same note. What is the possibility of having multiple Marine Commanders? Sometimes having 1 commander can be tough, but building another comm chair later say in a hive room, would give another marine a chance to comm in that surrounding area. But the First comm would be the 5 Star General and be able to override the over comm's (Colonel perhaps) actions. For example if a marine goes in and builds/recycles too many structures to be a pain or because he is a noob, then the 5 Star Gen can cancel the upgrades....
The same ideas would be applied to Aliens. The first gorge would be the Queen and the next two gorges could be Princesses (lol) or Colony Leaders who would follow the rules set by the queen or would lose it's "wings" or whatever.....
Just some ideas to suggest. I am no expert but I have been playing for some time now.... But I always like to put in my 2 cents and it may evolve or create an epiphany for someone else (Charlie, Max, Cory, or anyone else on the forums).
In my opinion the adding an alien commander to game will remove a bit of <b>originality</b> from the game itself (<b>I think that aliens shouldn't have much organization because as we can clearly see their hunters/predators, not tactical fighters</b> (By the way, there are already some messages warning the alien players about structures/hives being attacked or the lack of Gorges on the team).
A thing i really enjoy about NS1 is the fact that marines are outnumbered, because as we can see in a 6 vs 6 game the marines will have 1 commander and the other <b>5 marines will be fighting against 6 aliens</b>.
If an alien commander is added this would change, because they would have a less fighters on the map, and by doing that marines can get some <b>advantage</b>.
I know that this advantage can be brought down because the aliens will also get some advantages by having a commander of their own.
But the point of my is that please think very seriously about the "Alien Commander" and please listen to the Community.
I believe an alien command is necessary to counterbalance the negative issues of the marine commander. If you remember the many threads about 'how to fix commander mode' you might understand how necessary it is to balance the fact that (in public games) a bad marine commander can handicap the marine team. If its unique and fun, it can only make the game better.
As for some interesting ideas for the alien commander I was thinking that putting the commander in charge of the functions of the other chambers. To replace the automatic functions of the dropped chambers.
- control the aiming and firing of the offensive chambers 1st person view - click on the defensive chambers to heal things in the area - click on the sensory chamber to cloak things in the area - in charge of the warning and alarm audio.
Instead of 'alien commander' how about the name Overmind? Semantic-net?
<!--quoteo(post=1668818:date=Jan 29 2008, 09:00 PM:name=StabbyKing)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StabbyKing @ Jan 29 2008, 09:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1668818"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Since there are 3 hives, would there be a possibility of 3 alien commanders? So one alien commander per hive....? That would result in some interesting gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmmm... 3 hives commanders, controlling the chamber connected to that hive.
That will be one to control Movement Chambers, one to Sensory Chambers and one to Defense Chambers.
No idea what the ChambControler will control yet...
Maybe every ChambControler will have a X powerups from X stk. Resource Towers to add on MCs,SCs and DCs. 1 Resource Towers = 1 MC point, 1 SC point and 1 DC point.
And if a Chamber whit powerups get destroyed, that powerup is free to use again, and... If a Resource Tower is destroyed and the ChambControl has used all his powerups, a random (or maybe the first/last used) powerup will be removed from that Chamber type the hive is connected to.
... just ideas...
oh, and it is still the gorges there build the MCs, SCs and DCs... ChambControlers is only adding points/controlling them...
The only problem I have with an alien commander is the enventuality of sucky commanders on both teams at the same time ruining everyone's fun.
I used to switch to aliens in order to avoid certian commanders which I knew would never, ever give anyone a shotty, but by some fluke would never be voted out of the chair.
So where is my escape from the comm of doom? The mythic third team?
On the other hand, the aliens were pretty disorganized in NS1. They didn't have a comm that could look around, give orders, etc. And, from what I can remember, it was pretty quiet on the alien team (cept for the occassional attempt to say "follow me" with a grunt sound). In most of the games I played in NS1 as the marines, there was almost non-stop chatter on the marine side. Course... most of that was an 11 year old screaming into his dad's mike "Shotty! Shotty! Shotty!"
Maybe a comm for the aliens will make that team more enjoyable to play. Or maybe it'll just become the marines with teeth and no guns.
All I can say is, there better be a big difference between the two comms. A big difference.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All I can say is, there better be a big difference between the two comms. A big difference.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Likely, there will be.
Hmm, it was mentioned on another thread the idea of a "hive mind", in that, every player on the team makes the decisions - requesting certain structures to be dropped, and approving them - essentially it would've been a voting system. There are obvious problems with this, of course.
I was thinking that instead of everyone on the team requesting/approving through votes, that would be left entirely up to the alien 'commander'. He'd be able to request certain structures be dropped by gorges, and he'd also be able to approve/deny certain structures dropped by gorges. It'd be something like a 'ghost structure' when a gorge initially drops one, and when the alien comm requests one.
The gorges still have a great degree of autonomy; and it would allow the alien team to still build in several places at once, and the alien comm would generally not have to focus on areas where building is present, since that's the job of the gorge. With the absence of an alien commander, then perhaps all structures are automatically approved.
Well, it's an idea.
I really like the idea of 'glowies', though they look more like tadpoles to me.. rather than.. whatever it was compared to in the video cast, I forget.
I like the idea put forward by someone earlier, about the 'glowies' when 'idle' interacting with the environment. They would scatter away like a school of fish, on the approach of a Marine. I guess they would have to stay within a certain proximity of the hive. And they would 're-settle' with the absence of any danger. When it comes time for a single alien to spawn, a few would attach to the ground, and A) momentarily transform into a number of eggs, then only one of those eggs 'birth' an alien, or B) though a few have attached, only one of those becomes an egg and then births an alien. The un-spawning glowies would (transform back into a glowie first, and) de-tach from the ground to float up and away again.
Might you guys institute another mode into ns? (It shouldn't require too much work, don't worry) That you might put-in the sort of suggestions people've had on this discussion that depend on everyone working together- the ones that make the game more complicated, such as the above voting system or extra comms, hive minds and such- in a mode specifically for people that want to cooperate and play a more complex game. Obviously, for the majority of ns games, someone will get in a mood or just plain be t3h nubsauce, jump in the chair or drop a chamber and screw everyone. Having really intricate team systems that require extreme cooperation doesn't work in the average pub game, and I think ns2 should be kept suited to the new and/or casual player, but were we the gamers able to search through game modes and find the one for us (like co, ns, ns(x)) everyone would win.
On a related note, I've always wanted a change in the commander ejection procedure: I think comms should be more easily ejected, but have the opportunity to be reelected. Also, in war if you mutiny and fail, there are consequences... perhaps making people think twice before starting a vote in ns, so that only legitimately annoying comms be ejected, would help.
Alien commander... Well, having alien using the hive and get an animated hive for all kind of action like teleport is good. But make the gorge a static unit will ruin aliens.
Let's put thing together. Marins have a commander wich is static but can guard the MS. Marins have ranged weapon (believe me; it's *ù$ù* usefull). Marins are all the same kind (speed/health/armor) at the begining.
Alien don't have a commander. Alien only have melee weapon as first weapon (skulk,fade,onos). So they truly rely on map. You can't ambush in an allay. You need doors / cavities / darkness / turns / hiding position etc... Alien have to divide the team at the begining. Gorges to produce RTs, chambers and Hives. Skulks to spot and counter the enemy.
It can be useful in FFA but not in Clan play. Gorge are the first supporting unit. They heal basic units (if they don't die) to make skulks avoid a full length travel to the hive. That is clearly good to have a support unit on-site.
In clanplay you have usually 2 gorge for RTs at the begining. 1 stays gorge (permagorge) and do the first chamber. Then he helps player heal on designated spot to hold. a 3rd teammate does the last 2 chambers. There is still 3 players who will get to 50res aproximatively at the same time. 1 will make hive, 2 will evovle as fade. If no hive wanted you have 3 fades. The permagorge try to make more RTS or structures. The guy who did a RT and got back skulk usually can go Lerk when fades arrive.
It may vary depending on clan and strategy but mainly ... this is a standart option.
Making the gorge a static unit is a leak in the plan. It weaken alien teamwork (supporting gorge). Usually a clanplayer knows the job. They don't need orders. Only signals: "Problem here!", "1 Marins there! wounded" etc. I think i would prefer a gorge on the spot instead of a WP style thing, whatever the plan is. A good skulk that kills a marins (in clanplay) always get damaged. A gorge is really usfull. You can stay on the zone and deny acces, you don't have to leave and go to the hive for recovering.
If it happens to be validated: There is definitly somthing to change on the basic alien units. And who will lauch hives and who will do upgrade chambers.
A captain (on the spot) can do the trick. He's on the spot and can give local orders. For example a gorge drop a sign like we do on CO_ server with sporemines plugin (just a command to bind). This sign can indicate that 'this' is a spot to defend.
For synchronized attacks; standard voice command can do the trick. As i never saw a good commander keeping silent.
It may be good for FFA style. New players can find it usefull to have direction and action to do. But... In the mean time including a tutorial in the game and the possibility to walk in the map without making a server can help new players.
You could think about the way Hive will be destroyed by Marines, like destroying first the 4 "legs" that fix at ceiling Hive Room (with Welder, for example), Hive will fall down on the floor (with a suffer sound of Hive) and finishing destroy shooting with a stronger weapon.
Hmm... *thinking* I think I am not so interested in a alien commander after all actually when I thinking about it.
But the illustration of the Gorge get taken/swallowed by the Hive using the tentacles look so cool... ... but how do it get out... through the ovipositor, or the hive vomit it back out...
But... if not commander, what could the animation be used for then... Small creature teleport to other Hives there is under attack, faster healing or resources when inside Hive, ....
bah.. now to the <!--coloro:#F4A460--><span style="color:#F4A460"><!--/coloro-->glowing creatures<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->...
I like the glowing creatures (caterpillars). When making maps, could it also be made so there is a option to put egg-pointers to where the glowies shall fly to and become eggs? (on floor, wall, ceiling, inside pipes...).
I also like the idea that the glowing creatures interacting with the environment, and then marines is shotting they will fly/float really really fast, so they hard to hit, to random ground or egg-point and become eggs, and if the Hive is shoot at there will fly a lot of them out from the Hive into the air.
I can see one way an Alien Commander might work to unify the resource model, and that's to give him a resource model similar to the early Gorge. In older versions of NS, the Gorge got a bigger proportion of the res generated by RTs than non-Gorges. The problem with this was that everyone went Gorge to get lots of resources so they could become a better lifeform.
If this only applied to an Alien 'field commander', you'd have a player who got a bigger influx of res and who could distribute it as he/she saw fit, BUT (and crucially) could not use this res to upgrade to a bigger/better lifeform.
E.g. Alien 'commander/general/marshall/name irrelevant' has 20 res accumulated and his team is made up of: - A Gorge with 2 res - A Lerk with 34 res - A Skulk with 29 res
Let's assume for this example that the Aliens have 1 Hive, and they have 1 MC placed down. The Commander here has the option of the following: - Give the res to the Gorge and ask him to drop 2 more MCs - Give the res to the Lerk and ask him to go Fade - Give the res to the Skulk and ask him to drop the Hive
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Now, here's where it gets interesting. A lot of the time with a system like this you'd get players who might 'take the res and run', i.e. they'd receive a big bonus of res from the Alien comm, but instead of building a hive they'd drop 4 OCs or something incredibly unhelpful.
Instead of thinking of the giving of res as a 'donation', what happens if it's is more of an 'allocation' or a 'promise'?
E.g. in the same scenario, the game could be designed so that the Alien comm could decide that a Hive was the most important use of these resources. In this case he would move to the Hive area and use a first-person build menu to select an intended Hive location (this in turn is added to all Alien team members' maps/minimaps). On the next page of the menu, he assigns the task to a player from a list that shows all of their personal resource points. Finally, with the player selected, the commander chooses how much res to 'allocate/promise' him (up to the maximum allowed for the task in question, e.g. the maximum allocation for a Hive would be 50 res).
Now, the player who has been promised the 20 res to put up the Hive receives an audio alert that says: "You have been chosen" (or something to that effect) ...and a message alert that reads: "Evolve to Gorge and build the Hive at this location" ...and a waypoint that shows up on the map/minimap and first-person view (or maybe something more subtle than a WP, since the Kharaa have more on-screen clutter what with parasite and SoF)
When the player evolves to Gorge and selects their build menu, they will have enough resources to drop a Hive (using the comm's 'resource allocation') but for other structures they will only have their own personal resources to use towards build costs.
There is one essential ingredient to this design, and that is that -like the Marine Comm, the Alien comm must have a 'vote off' system so that it can't be exploited by griefers or selfish players who just want to give their friends resources. On the other hand, this would allow beginners to host their own servers and deal out res to their friends to give them a quick taste of the Fade/Onos/Lerk, etc.
This Alien commander design has a lot of benefits: - Can be toggled off/on as a server CVAR to switch between comm:grunt team resource distribution or grunt:grunt distro - The Alien comm deals no direct damage, so does not represent a lucrative choice for a selfish kills-obsessed player - With the Alien comm enabled, Alien beginners are nurtured and given prompts on effective resource use by the comm - This Alien comm does not affect which class an Alien player can be, nor does it affect what chamber is dropped - it simply incentivises the Alien comm's chosen strategy
The main problem with this design is that, at a high skill level where every resource point counts, an Alien commander who isn't allocating res for sensible expenditure will drag the team down, just like a sluggish or incompetant commander does for the Marines. However, this design ensure that Aliens still have the opportunity of winning without a good commander (a competant one should do just fine). This way the Alien leader doesn't have to carry the team so much and there is less pressure on beginners.
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How would I design the Alien comm in terms of combat/movement within the first-person?
The Alien commander is about as fast as a level 3 celerity walker Fade, and about the size of a Fade. In fact, you could just make him a specially evolved Fade whose claws have de-evolved and whose acid-rocket gun has a more prominant function. He can't fly or blink or leap or anything that would make him too powerful in the right hands. He does have a goo gun that can immobilise Marines but not damage them, allowing him to join the battle as a support class or to make a quick getaway in a one-on-one encounter. The goo gun is his only ability until a chamber is dropped, at which point he gains another ability. He dies just the same if the Alien team has no Hives.
- <b>Goo Gun</b> Causes infestation to grow on the surface aimed at; limited range. If aimed at a Marine, temporarily slows their movement by growing infestation on the floor below them and disables their weapons temporarily; and causes jetpackers to fall out of the sky and land in a blob of infestation on the floor. Can be fired in a prolonged burst to disable an enemy structure (or simply make it operate at reduced efficiency). - <b>Hive teleport</b> (available when MC unlocked) Allows Alien comm to enter a section of infestation and transport to a Hive; has a warmup and cooldown time - Alien comm does not teleport to a Hive directly, he must travel 'through the infestation' for in excess of 5 seconds. The Hive transportation time is dependant on how many of the 3 MCs the team currently holds. Requires 50% adrenaline to activate. - <b>Regen Egg</b> (available when DC unlocked) Alien Comm becomes a larger version of the Alien spawn egg, becoming immobile and vulnerable to concentrated enemy fire, but gaining significant armour bonuses and regenerating health at 15% hp/second. The Alien comm can only emerge once on full health. The regen rate is higher with 3 DCs than with 1 or 0. Requires full adrenaline to activate. - <b>Ethereal</b> (available when SC unlocked) Alien comm can take advantage of the SC's cloaking ability while using this ability, which drains adrenaline. Using any other ability will bring him out of cloak. If the team only has one SC in play the cloaking effect is the same as if a normal Alien were using level 1 cloak. If the team's SCs have been destroyed, the power can still be used but is only effective while motionless.
The Alien commander cannot deal direct damage, and has only self-preservation and support abilities. If killed, the Alien commander will respawn, but with no resources. He can escape by growing an infestation patch on the wall and then using it to transport to a Hive. He can regain health quickly by 'egging'. All of this means that the Alien commander can avoid the FPS combat if necessary and focus on marshalling resources according to his own personal strategy. It also makes the Alien resource system less transparent, and harder for Marines to guess at what the Aliens have up their sleeve. E.g. an Alien comm could give a 30 res Skulk 50 res to go Fade, and if the Fade died he may still be able to return just seconds later if he had accumulated enough res from kills.
You know... It only just occurred to me that it would make sense for the aliens to evolve into something that mimics the marine commander mode. If the TSA are the only things in the galaxy that can stand up to them, then it would make sense for a highly adaptive bacteria to start analysing and emulating the strengths of their enemy...
<!--quoteo(post=1669024:date=Jan 30 2008, 05:21 PM:name=Revenge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Revenge @ Jan 30 2008, 05:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1669024"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You know... It only just occurred to me that it would make sense for the aliens to evolve into something that mimics the marine commander mode. If the TSA are the only things in the galaxy that can stand up to them, then it would make sense for a highly adaptive bacteria to start analysing and emulating the strengths of their enemy...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So when do we see bio-guns?
How will the HUD for the alien comm look? It shouldn't just be the marine HUD with slimey edges.
The alien comm should see the map like an alien would: the marine's territory is foriegn, the creep (or infestation, I forget the name. Green mat thing). Think the "fog of war" that any RTS map starts with, a black cloud surronding your base that lifts as you explore. The marines, on the other hand, have full scematics of the map (it is their ship/lab/mine/whatever). Maybe the icons for allies, enemies, etc should stay the same, but how the alien and marine comms begin a game (and what their first objectives are) should be completely different.
Since the aliens have only just arrived on whatever rock/ship they're on, they would naturally be forced to explore their environment before launching attacks. That fits nicely into the fact that everyone starts as a skulk, which is perfect for scouting, but was never really used specifically for that purpose (from my experience, it wasn't. People who have been playing longer can dispute that claim). This could also make the parisite attack alot more valuable. Not only do you know where your target is, but he'll do the scouting for you!
The marines, on the other hand, know exactly where they are, but are constrained by their limited begining equipment. They have to research new weapons before attacking the hive. They might gain alot of ground in the first five minutes, but once the aliens get themselves oriented, they'll lose most of it to raids.
Quite a balence, eh?
Slightly off topic, but still on the subject of comms and gaining info/advantages:
I was also thinking that there might be points on the map where the aliens can steal info about the marines, providing some sort of advantage (I guess it could depend on the map. Maybe at an armory, the benifit would be greater resistance to bullets. Or at a hospital, the aliens could find where humans are weaker and raises their attack damage)
On the marine side, labs could provide info on the aliens (if I recall, one was seen in the concept art, with the aliens trapped in giant glass cages), granting them some sort of advantage (better accuracy, better armor, etc).
It's not technically correct though. The TSA are called in to save near-hopeless causes where its either they save it or you nuke the station. The bacterium goes dormant without anything to do, but once the marines are detected, it goes back into overtime and makes hives and skulks and stuff.
Not a bad pod cast, good to see some evolution, going on,
A few things i was anticipating being mentioned
It looks like the hive would spawn on the ground unravel then shoot up tentacles to the ceiling raising its self up with the ground tentacles before sorts of bursting spreading the first lot of seeded DI
Additionally from what most hive rooms have involved, and i don't know how much it will cripple the source engine, it looked like from the shots in the video pod cast before i actually opened up the art work that the tentacles at the bottom were leaking water, and it seams to run true with most to all hive rooms, areas were hives fit nicely usually sit in a slightly lowered bay area, in which theres usually some water.
It seams to me like that would add the ultimate to a dynamic atmospheric hive room, the tentacles also drink from this water to regular the immense heat the hive is producing sort of like any thing biological that uses or produces copious amounts of energy, the steam the bi product of this which would form droplets on the ceiling DI and run down the walls or even drip from the ceiling. A few rooms in episode 1 pulled this effect off., even the antiline caves looked like it had this effect but more so ant like with stalagmites.
I can see the flyies landing and they do resemble the base to the current ns1 egg, landing and just there whole color change they blend in with the DI they land on accumulate its color and the immense energy inside them glows a fierce orange as immense heat is exhausted and the pink embryo inside grows rapidly hardening with a fine white transparent skin over it before the whole things burst and the remains soak into the DI. To further this the hive needs to be up high, and the flyies really need to land on walls ceilings in vents, keeping marines on guard all the time from all angles.
I don't know if flyies should appear on motion it might give hives away, but it would surely be great to see it mess with motion on a hive camp.
Seams like your having heaps of fun guys keep it up.
- Great vidcast, but could you raise the volume (not on the Jingle, it's fine).
- You would probably save the community a lot of trouble by changing the working name of the Alien "Commander" ASAP. If it's different, why call it the same thing? My suggestion is Hivemind (or some other "mindthing") but take a name that fits its role.
- I suggest that to keep Aliens as individuals, the "mindthing" could focus on team issues rather than ordering individuals around. Perhaps things like upgrade selection, focused spawning in one hive, DI growth direction, etc.
- It would be nice to hear what you plan to do with the Gorge in NS2. With a "mindthing", how will that change his role? It would be nice if you could discuss this in some future podcast/vidcast.
Here are some ideas for alien commander: - Commander mode is first available for the second hive or hive upgrade - The alien commanders actions draws from his/her own resource pool rather than a global pool. Makes the aliens change commander often. - The commander can remote-infest human resource-towers so they slowly take damage over time until removed (50res). - Can produce poisonous glands on infestation near the hive (14res pr gland) - Marines take small amount of damage over time - Psychic hive scream - Disorient invading marines for 2 sec (30 res pr hivescream) - Requires good coordination and teamwork to be useful - Glowie boost - Temporarily boosts the amount of glowies in the hive area to increase the spawn rate shortly. (30 res, doubles spawn rate, lasts 30 seconds) - Tentacle lash - Kick back marines standing just next to the tentacles (5 res) - Get marines to a distance of the hive to make it harder to shoot directly at.
Each of the commander abilities can be incredibly useful and powerful in situations, which is why I made them so expensive. That way it requires very good coordination to use these abilities well. The price also encourages many different aliens to become commander over the game while the marines typically only select 1 commander. This emphasizes the individuality of the aliens even though they have hivemind and there are both defensive as well as offensive abilities.
Also the alien commander has only control over the environment around the hives (except it can remote-infest marine restowers through pipe-systems) and can't give alien players commands. Again you treat the aliens as individual organisms.
- Makes the hive an actual "playable" character in some sense.
If they take from their own resource pool that negates the entire point of implementing the alien commander in the first place. I do like the concept of the aliens getting more 'active' comm abilities as opposed to the marines passive upgrades.
- All alien characters leave a pheromone around when they move, invisible to all except for the AC. This pheromone gradually decays over time though.
+ View is always that of one of the alien players(not topdown like the marine commander), so in a sense its like spectator mode. However it can also roam by using the pheromone as a sort of track, so it can view the present alien location or its recent travel path.
+ The AC can detect very specific information about Marine/Marine buildings if they are within proximity to an alien player. IE things like health, armor, weapon type, ammo left, maybe even their orders, thus letting the alien it is spectating know valuable information about its opponent. Visually it would be displayed like annotations to scent of fear
+ The AC can 'tag' or illuminate(similar to scent of fear) specific targets which become viewable to all aliens, allowing aliens to focus attacks on certain things.
+ No direct control over building(left to gorges) but it can lay out suggestions for gorges to build specific buildings. Gorges can choose to ignore though if they wish.
+ Can reassign resources from certain aliens to others(possible safety though like leaving a certain amount for an upgrade or 2) to prevent hoarding or just for efficiency
+ AC can also lay down waypoints to specific areas using the map
+ Can have as many ACs as there are hives but as such the alien team will lose a potentially valuable player from the front lines. benefits are with large scale games where you might have clueless people etc
+ Possible influence over the infestation(although I dont know if there are any real benefits to this)
cant think of anything else, but that would certainly be a different experience to the marine com
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->+ Can reassign resources from certain aliens to others(possible safety though like leaving a certain amount for an upgrade or 2) to prevent hoarding or just for efficiency<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> sigh.. well this says it all: <!--QuoteBegin-Align+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Align)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If they take from their own resource pool that negates the entire point of implementing the alien commander in the first place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I also don't like the idea you suggested - that the alien comm has so little control over buildings to place <i>(unless this was based on the above assumption, where if it's your own resources, you'll spend it your way)</i>. The alien comm is essentially the great unifier - unify resources, unify the team, unify the strategy.
An idea for the 'glowies', either AI or dead player controlled would be as a kind of minor hive defense - this would stop some of the more immediate spawn camping problems in public games.
For instance, if a lone rine or two of them enters the room then the glowies could swarm them - at the least brightening their screen and distracting them or at the most disturbing their aim etc, this of course would be stoppable via a hive rush where the glowies would leg it back to the hive or maybe even become unusable if the commander scans so as not to stop hive rushes with shotties etc.
I know the whole way the game is played is likely to evolve but thought this might be a nice addition using your current concepts.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For instance, if a lone rine or two of them enters the room then the glowies could swarm them - at the least brightening their screen and distracting them<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> kinda like star wars republic commando?
I haven't read all the responses yet (geesh!) but I did want to make one point:
An Alien Commander will <b>ONLY be included if it is totally unique and not like the Marine Commander</b>. You absolutely won't see an Alien Comm. dropping medpacks and giving orders to squads of aliens. It's just not going to happen, there would be no point. More important than an Alien Commander is <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/about/" target="_blank">two unique sides</a> (it's first in the list and definitely the most important point). <b>The only reason I think we will have an Alien Comm. at all is to unify the resource model and make the game more uniform and balanced at all server sizes.</b> <b>If it feels generic or removes the uniqueness from the aliens, it will be removed</b>.
We should be able to fix the volume problem for future videocasts.
-Charlie<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
From the bolded part of your post, I am guessing the Alien Commander gets all the resources and distributes them between players?
If that's how it may work, I don't really like that idea mainly because it may mean that the aliens would be too dependent on getting res from the alien commander, some aliens might not be able to do whatever they want.
I like aliens, and playing as aliens more than marines because aliens allows players to do basically anything they want. Unlike the Marines, where they depend on getting equipment and structures from the commander, aliens can just do whatever they want without the need of a "commander".
Now I know the alien commander may not like what I described above but I'm just pointing that out, just in case that is what you may have in mind for an alien commander.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only reason I think we will have an Alien Comm. at all is to unify the resource model and make the game more uniform and balanced at all server sizes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Personally, I think aliens are balanced on all server sizes, well at least in big servers. I play often on a 15v15 server, no mods or plugins or anything that affects gameplay. I'd say the game is fairly balance.
Yes aliens do get very little resources when it's divided by 15 players, but it's not as bad as it sounds. Players are encouraged to work together and attack an area together and get kills for resources. Resources from kills makes a huge difference, usually a few players manage to get 50 resources in the 3-4 minute mark, enough to build a hive.
Kills mean a lot to aliens(in 15v15, especially) because more kills = more resources = more resources to use to build more structures or to gestate into new lifeforms. To get kills, aliens need to organize attacks, work together and ambush the marines, etc.
Because of the way aliens get resources individually/separately AND aliens have the flexibility of doing anything they want, I think it encourages a lot of team work for the alien team.
Without getting further into detail of what a 15v15 is like(for those who never played), I'd say it's fairly balance. When I say it's fairly balance, I mean it. If both teams had equally skilled and cooperative players, marines and aliens would probably each win 50/50.
I played both marines and aliens enough on the 15v15 to know that the game is fairly balance, even though the alien team's resources are divided 15 ways.
This is just to point out that 15v15 is fairly balanced and the resource model/system for aliens works, even 15v15 games, in case any of you developers were wondering if the resource system needs adjustment for the aliens or not.
Hi there, I haven't read all thread replies (but many), seen great ideas from members, but missed some "realistic" (I know, were alking about aliens) points with that Hive/Commander issue... Fuzilogic scored with that particular idea (didn't check if someone else did suggest it):
<!--quoteo(post=1669272:date=Feb 2 2008, 02:34 AM:name=fuzilogic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fuzilogic @ Feb 2 2008, 02:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1669272"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->+ Can have as many ACs as there are hives but as such the alien team will lose a potentially valuable player from the front lines. benefits are with large scale games where you might have clueless people etc<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was just thinking the same, which I want put together with other ideas:
I really do agree with people saying the alien "commander" should stop being called so, at once. Like the "Hivemind" name some people proposed. It won't be the same role as a rine commander, doesn't sound realistic (""), and make people think about an adaptation of the rine commander to alien assets... Like having <b>only one</b> mind/commander. And I <b>cannot</b> imagine a hive <b>without</b> a mind, if it has to be integrated in NS2. For me, as for Fuzilogic, it has to be a hive-related concept, not a team-related one. Like a kind of Area Control Mind, centered arount a particular hive. Why only have a single "intelligent" planifier for alien swarm? This is just an anthropomorphist idea <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" /> So having a Mind for each Hive, I easily <u><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->imagine a gorge becoming the Mind of a given Hive by simply evolving into it<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></u>! It really sounds logical to me... One gorge, evolving into one hive, this way beconming one "Mind". The player <b>is</b> the Hive. When the Hive is destroyed (or killed, since now it would be really be alive), so is the player. And another gorge shall attempt to evolve as a Hive later on.... What can be more realistic? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Last, I think those minds should <b>not</b> be able to control other alien players in any way... Like others said before, one "hive area mind" should only help other alien players in the area by droping some (few) pheromons and controlling environment (DI, all infested human structures, etc). Also by being able to use some defensive actions of the Hive itself (slaping, deploying poison fog, ...), managing (local) flies/eggs production... Also ressources would be allocated on an area basis, that is, additional ressources would be earned from only this Hive area.
Just think about that new evolving tree branch: <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skulk.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::skulk::" border="0" alt="skulk.gif" /> -> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/pudgy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::gorge::" border="0" alt="pudgy.gif" /> -> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/hive5.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::hive::" border="0" alt="hive5.gif" />
For my <a href="http://www.lerk.de/2008/02/die-rolle-des-hives/" target="_blank">German article on this topic</a> I made a little animaion: <img src="http://www.lerk.de/bilder/hive-alien-commaner.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Comments
-Charlie<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll remember that in future posts. Maybe it's time to post again in the Marine Weapon System thread.
Since there are 3 hives, would there be a possibility of 3 alien commanders? So one alien commander per hive....? That would result in some interesting gameplay.
And on the same note. What is the possibility of having multiple Marine Commanders? Sometimes having 1 commander can be tough, but building another comm chair later say in a hive room, would give another marine a chance to comm in that surrounding area. But the First comm would be the 5 Star General and be able to override the over comm's (Colonel perhaps) actions. For example if a marine goes in and builds/recycles too many structures to be a pain or because he is a noob, then the 5 Star Gen can cancel the upgrades....
The same ideas would be applied to Aliens. The first gorge would be the Queen and the next two gorges could be Princesses (lol) or Colony Leaders who would follow the rules set by the queen or would lose it's "wings" or whatever.....
Just some ideas to suggest. I am no expert but I have been playing for some time now.... But I always like to put in my 2 cents and it may evolve or create an epiphany for someone else (Charlie, Max, Cory, or anyone else on the forums).
Thats all for me!
Stabby Out
A thing i really enjoy about NS1 is the fact that marines are outnumbered, because as we can see in a 6 vs 6 game the marines will have 1 commander and the other <b>5 marines will be fighting against 6 aliens</b>.
If an alien commander is added this would change, because they would have a less fighters on the map, and by doing that marines can get some <b>advantage</b>.
I know that this advantage can be brought down because the aliens will also get some advantages by having a commander of their own.
But the point of my is that please think very seriously about the "Alien Commander" and please listen to the Community.
Best of Luck
Blade01
As for some interesting ideas for the alien commander I was thinking that putting the commander in charge of the functions of the other chambers. To replace the automatic functions of the dropped chambers.
- control the aiming and firing of the offensive chambers 1st person view
- click on the defensive chambers to heal things in the area
- click on the sensory chamber to cloak things in the area
- in charge of the warning and alarm audio.
Instead of 'alien commander' how about the name Overmind? Semantic-net?
Hmmm... 3 hives commanders, controlling the chamber connected to that hive.
That will be one to control Movement Chambers, one to Sensory Chambers and one to Defense Chambers.
No idea what the ChambControler will control yet...
Maybe every ChambControler will have a X powerups from X stk. Resource Towers to add on MCs,SCs and DCs.
1 Resource Towers = 1 MC point, 1 SC point and 1 DC point.
And if a Chamber whit powerups get destroyed, that powerup is free to use again, and...
If a Resource Tower is destroyed and the ChambControl has used all his powerups, a random (or maybe the first/last used) powerup will be removed from that Chamber type the hive is connected to.
... just ideas...
oh, and it is still the gorges there build the MCs, SCs and DCs... ChambControlers is only adding points/controlling them...
I used to switch to aliens in order to avoid certian commanders which I knew would never, ever give anyone a shotty, but by some fluke would never be voted out of the chair.
So where is my escape from the comm of doom? The mythic third team?
On the other hand, the aliens were pretty disorganized in NS1. They didn't have a comm that could look around, give orders, etc. And, from what I can remember, it was pretty quiet on the alien team (cept for the occassional attempt to say "follow me" with a grunt sound). In most of the games I played in NS1 as the marines, there was almost non-stop chatter on the marine side. Course... most of that was an 11 year old screaming into his dad's mike "Shotty! Shotty! Shotty!"
Maybe a comm for the aliens will make that team more enjoyable to play. Or maybe it'll just become the marines with teeth and no guns.
All I can say is, there better be a big difference between the two comms. A big difference.
Likely, there will be.
Hmm, it was mentioned on another thread the idea of a "hive mind", in that, every player on the team makes the decisions - requesting certain structures to be dropped, and approving them - essentially it would've been a voting system. There are obvious problems with this, of course.
I was thinking that instead of everyone on the team requesting/approving through votes, that would be left entirely up to the alien 'commander'. He'd be able to request certain structures be dropped by gorges, and he'd also be able to approve/deny certain structures dropped by gorges. It'd be something like a 'ghost structure' when a gorge initially drops one, and when the alien comm requests one.
The gorges still have a great degree of autonomy; and it would allow the alien team to still build in several places at once, and the alien comm would generally not have to focus on areas where building is present, since that's the job of the gorge. With the absence of an alien commander, then perhaps all structures are automatically approved.
Well, it's an idea.
I really like the idea of 'glowies', though they look more like tadpoles to me.. rather than.. whatever it was compared to in the video cast, I forget.
I like the idea put forward by someone earlier, about the 'glowies' when 'idle' interacting with the environment. They would scatter away like a school of fish, on the approach of a Marine. I guess they would have to stay within a certain proximity of the hive. And they would 're-settle' with the absence of any danger. When it comes time for a single alien to spawn, a few would attach to the ground, and A) momentarily transform into a number of eggs, then only one of those eggs 'birth' an alien, or B) though a few have attached, only one of those becomes an egg and then births an alien. The un-spawning glowies would (transform back into a glowie first, and) de-tach from the ground to float up and away again.
Obviously, for the majority of ns games, someone will get in a mood or just plain be t3h nubsauce, jump in the chair or drop a chamber and screw everyone. Having really intricate team systems that require extreme cooperation doesn't work in the average pub game, and I think ns2 should be kept suited to the new and/or casual player, but were we the gamers able to search through game modes and find the one for us (like co, ns, ns(x)) everyone would win.
On a related note, I've always wanted a change in the commander ejection procedure: I think comms should be more easily ejected, but have the opportunity to be reelected. Also, in war if you mutiny and fail, there are consequences... perhaps making people think twice before starting a vote in ns, so that only legitimately annoying comms be ejected, would help.
Let's put thing together.
Marins have a commander wich is static but can guard the MS.
Marins have ranged weapon (believe me; it's *ù$ù* usefull).
Marins are all the same kind (speed/health/armor) at the begining.
Alien don't have a commander.
Alien only have melee weapon as first weapon (skulk,fade,onos). So they truly rely on map. You can't ambush in an allay. You need doors / cavities / darkness / turns / hiding position etc...
Alien have to divide the team at the begining. Gorges to produce RTs, chambers and Hives. Skulks to spot and counter the enemy.
It can be useful in FFA but not in Clan play. Gorge are the first supporting unit. They heal basic units (if they don't die) to make skulks avoid a full length travel to the hive. That is clearly good to have a support unit on-site.
In clanplay you have usually 2 gorge for RTs at the begining.
1 stays gorge (permagorge) and do the first chamber. Then he helps player heal on designated spot to hold.
a 3rd teammate does the last 2 chambers.
There is still 3 players who will get to 50res aproximatively at the same time.
1 will make hive, 2 will evovle as fade. If no hive wanted you have 3 fades.
The permagorge try to make more RTS or structures.
The guy who did a RT and got back skulk usually can go Lerk when fades arrive.
It may vary depending on clan and strategy but mainly ... this is a standart option.
Making the gorge a static unit is a leak in the plan. It weaken alien teamwork (supporting gorge). Usually a clanplayer knows the job. They don't need orders. Only signals: "Problem here!", "1 Marins there! wounded" etc. I think i would prefer a gorge on the spot instead of a WP style thing, whatever the plan is. A good skulk that kills a marins (in clanplay) always get damaged. A gorge is really usfull. You can stay on the zone and deny acces, you don't have to leave and go to the hive for recovering.
If it happens to be validated: There is definitly somthing to change on the basic alien units. And who will lauch hives and who will do upgrade chambers.
A captain (on the spot) can do the trick. He's on the spot and can give local orders. For example a gorge drop a sign like we do on CO_ server with sporemines plugin (just a command to bind). This sign can indicate that 'this' is a spot to defend.
For synchronized attacks; standard voice command can do the trick. As i never saw a good commander keeping silent.
It may be good for FFA style. New players can find it usefull to have direction and action to do.
But... In the mean time including a tutorial in the game and the possibility to walk in the map without making a server can help new players.
I think I am not so interested in a alien commander after all actually when I thinking about it.
But the illustration of the Gorge get taken/swallowed by the Hive using the tentacles look so cool...
... but how do it get out... through the ovipositor, or the hive vomit it back out...
But... if not commander, what could the animation be used for then...
Small creature teleport to other Hives there is under attack, faster healing or resources when inside Hive, ....
bah.. now to the <!--coloro:#F4A460--><span style="color:#F4A460"><!--/coloro-->glowing creatures<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->...
I like the glowing creatures (caterpillars).
When making maps, could it also be made so there is a option to put egg-pointers to where the glowies shall fly to and become eggs? (on floor, wall, ceiling, inside pipes...).
I also like the idea that the glowing creatures interacting with the environment, and then marines is shotting they will fly/float really really fast, so they hard to hit, to random ground or egg-point and become eggs, and if the Hive is shoot at there will fly a lot of them out from the Hive into the air.
hmm... cant think of more right now.
If this only applied to an Alien 'field commander', you'd have a player who got a bigger influx of res and who could distribute it as he/she saw fit, BUT (and crucially) could not use this res to upgrade to a bigger/better lifeform.
E.g. Alien 'commander/general/marshall/name irrelevant' has 20 res accumulated and his team is made up of:
- A Gorge with 2 res
- A Lerk with 34 res
- A Skulk with 29 res
Let's assume for this example that the Aliens have 1 Hive, and they have 1 MC placed down. The Commander here has the option of the following:
- Give the res to the Gorge and ask him to drop 2 more MCs
- Give the res to the Lerk and ask him to go Fade
- Give the res to the Skulk and ask him to drop the Hive
---
Now, here's where it gets interesting. A lot of the time with a system like this you'd get players who might 'take the res and run', i.e. they'd receive a big bonus of res from the Alien comm, but instead of building a hive they'd drop 4 OCs or something incredibly unhelpful.
Instead of thinking of the giving of res as a 'donation', what happens if it's is more of an 'allocation' or a 'promise'?
E.g. in the same scenario, the game could be designed so that the Alien comm could decide that a Hive was the most important use of these resources. In this case he would move to the Hive area and use a first-person build menu to select an intended Hive location (this in turn is added to all Alien team members' maps/minimaps). On the next page of the menu, he assigns the task to a player from a list that shows all of their personal resource points. Finally, with the player selected, the commander chooses how much res to 'allocate/promise' him (up to the maximum allowed for the task in question, e.g. the maximum allocation for a Hive would be 50 res).
Now, the player who has been promised the 20 res to put up the Hive receives an audio alert that says:
"You have been chosen" (or something to that effect)
...and a message alert that reads:
"Evolve to Gorge and build the Hive at this location"
...and a waypoint that shows up on the map/minimap and first-person view (or maybe something more subtle than a WP, since the Kharaa have more on-screen clutter what with parasite and SoF)
When the player evolves to Gorge and selects their build menu, they will have enough resources to drop a Hive (using the comm's 'resource allocation') but for other structures they will only have their own personal resources to use towards build costs.
There is one essential ingredient to this design, and that is that -like the Marine Comm, the Alien comm must have a 'vote off' system so that it can't be exploited by griefers or selfish players who just want to give their friends resources. On the other hand, this would allow beginners to host their own servers and deal out res to their friends to give them a quick taste of the Fade/Onos/Lerk, etc.
This Alien commander design has a lot of benefits:
- Can be toggled off/on as a server CVAR to switch between comm:grunt team resource distribution or grunt:grunt distro
- The Alien comm deals no direct damage, so does not represent a lucrative choice for a selfish kills-obsessed player
- With the Alien comm enabled, Alien beginners are nurtured and given prompts on effective resource use by the comm
- This Alien comm does not affect which class an Alien player can be, nor does it affect what chamber is dropped - it simply incentivises the Alien comm's chosen strategy
The main problem with this design is that, at a high skill level where every resource point counts, an Alien commander who isn't allocating res for sensible expenditure will drag the team down, just like a sluggish or incompetant commander does for the Marines. However, this design ensure that Aliens still have the opportunity of winning without a good commander (a competant one should do just fine). This way the Alien leader doesn't have to carry the team so much and there is less pressure on beginners.
---
How would I design the Alien comm in terms of combat/movement within the first-person?
The Alien commander is about as fast as a level 3 celerity walker Fade, and about the size of a Fade. In fact, you could just make him a specially evolved Fade whose claws have de-evolved and whose acid-rocket gun has a more prominant function. He can't fly or blink or leap or anything that would make him too powerful in the right hands. He does have a goo gun that can immobilise Marines but not damage them, allowing him to join the battle as a support class or to make a quick getaway in a one-on-one encounter. The goo gun is his only ability until a chamber is dropped, at which point he gains another ability. He dies just the same if the Alien team has no Hives.
- <b>Goo Gun</b>
Causes infestation to grow on the surface aimed at; limited range. If aimed at a Marine, temporarily slows their movement by growing infestation on the floor below them and disables their weapons temporarily; and causes jetpackers to fall out of the sky and land in a blob of infestation on the floor. Can be fired in a prolonged burst to disable an enemy structure (or simply make it operate at reduced efficiency).
- <b>Hive teleport</b> (available when MC unlocked)
Allows Alien comm to enter a section of infestation and transport to a Hive; has a warmup and cooldown time - Alien comm does not teleport to a Hive directly, he must travel 'through the infestation' for in excess of 5 seconds. The Hive transportation time is dependant on how many of the 3 MCs the team currently holds. Requires 50% adrenaline to activate.
- <b>Regen Egg</b> (available when DC unlocked)
Alien Comm becomes a larger version of the Alien spawn egg, becoming immobile and vulnerable to concentrated enemy fire, but gaining significant armour bonuses and regenerating health at 15% hp/second. The Alien comm can only emerge once on full health. The regen rate is higher with 3 DCs than with 1 or 0. Requires full adrenaline to activate.
- <b>Ethereal</b> (available when SC unlocked)
Alien comm can take advantage of the SC's cloaking ability while using this ability, which drains adrenaline. Using any other ability will bring him out of cloak. If the team only has one SC in play the cloaking effect is the same as if a normal Alien were using level 1 cloak. If the team's SCs have been destroyed, the power can still be used but is only effective while motionless.
The Alien commander cannot deal direct damage, and has only self-preservation and support abilities. If killed, the Alien commander will respawn, but with no resources. He can escape by growing an infestation patch on the wall and then using it to transport to a Hive. He can regain health quickly by 'egging'. All of this means that the Alien commander can avoid the FPS combat if necessary and focus on marshalling resources according to his own personal strategy. It also makes the Alien resource system less transparent, and harder for Marines to guess at what the Aliens have up their sleeve. E.g. an Alien comm could give a 30 res Skulk 50 res to go Fade, and if the Fade died he may still be able to return just seconds later if he had accumulated enough res from kills.
So when do we see bio-guns?
How will the HUD for the alien comm look? It shouldn't just be the marine HUD with slimey edges.
The alien comm should see the map like an alien would: the marine's territory is foriegn, the creep (or infestation, I forget the name. Green mat thing). Think the "fog of war" that any RTS map starts with, a black cloud surronding your base that lifts as you explore. The marines, on the other hand, have full scematics of the map (it is their ship/lab/mine/whatever). Maybe the icons for allies, enemies, etc should stay the same, but how the alien and marine comms begin a game (and what their first objectives are) should be completely different.
Since the aliens have only just arrived on whatever rock/ship they're on, they would naturally be forced to explore their environment before launching attacks. That fits nicely into the fact that everyone starts as a skulk, which is perfect for scouting, but was never really used specifically for that purpose (from my experience, it wasn't. People who have been playing longer can dispute that claim). This could also make the parisite attack alot more valuable. Not only do you know where your target is, but he'll do the scouting for you!
The marines, on the other hand, know exactly where they are, but are constrained by their limited begining equipment. They have to research new weapons before attacking the hive. They might gain alot of ground in the first five minutes, but once the aliens get themselves oriented, they'll lose most of it to raids.
Quite a balence, eh?
Slightly off topic, but still on the subject of comms and gaining info/advantages:
I was also thinking that there might be points on the map where the aliens can steal info about the marines, providing some sort of advantage (I guess it could depend on the map. Maybe at an armory, the benifit would be greater resistance to bullets. Or at a hospital, the aliens could find where humans are weaker and raises their attack damage)
On the marine side, labs could provide info on the aliens (if I recall, one was seen in the concept art, with the aliens trapped in giant glass cages), granting them some sort of advantage (better accuracy, better armor, etc).
Just a thought...
A few things i was anticipating being mentioned
It looks like the hive would spawn on the ground unravel then shoot up tentacles to the ceiling raising its self up with the ground tentacles before sorts of bursting spreading the first lot of seeded DI
Additionally from what most hive rooms have involved, and i don't know how much it will cripple the source engine, it looked like from the shots in the video pod cast before i actually opened up the art work that the tentacles at the bottom were leaking water, and it seams to run true with most to all hive rooms, areas were hives fit nicely usually sit in a slightly lowered bay area, in which theres usually some water.
It seams to me like that would add the ultimate to a dynamic atmospheric hive room, the tentacles also drink from this water to regular the immense heat the hive is producing sort of like any thing biological that uses or produces copious amounts of energy, the steam the bi product of this which would form droplets on the ceiling DI and run down the walls or even drip from the ceiling. A few rooms in episode 1 pulled this effect off., even the antiline caves looked like it had this effect but more so ant like with stalagmites.
I can see the flyies landing and they do resemble the base to the current ns1 egg, landing and just there whole color change they blend in with the DI they land on accumulate its color and the immense energy inside them glows a fierce orange as immense heat is exhausted and the pink embryo inside grows rapidly hardening with a fine white transparent skin over it before the whole things burst and the remains soak into the DI.
To further this the hive needs to be up high, and the flyies really need to land on walls ceilings in vents, keeping marines on guard all the time from all angles.
I don't know if flyies should appear on motion it might give hives away, but it would surely be great to see it mess with motion on a hive camp.
Seams like your having heaps of fun guys keep it up.
- Great vidcast, but could you raise the volume (not on the Jingle, it's fine).
- You would probably save the community a lot of trouble by changing the working name of the Alien "Commander" ASAP.
If it's different, why call it the same thing? My suggestion is Hivemind (or some other "mindthing") but take a name that fits its role.
- I suggest that to keep Aliens as individuals, the "mindthing" could focus on team issues rather than ordering individuals around.
Perhaps things like upgrade selection, focused spawning in one hive, DI growth direction, etc.
- It would be nice to hear what you plan to do with the Gorge in NS2. With a "mindthing", how will that change his role?
It would be nice if you could discuss this in some future podcast/vidcast.
thanks
- Commander mode is first available for the second hive or hive upgrade
- The alien commanders actions draws from his/her own resource pool rather than a global pool. Makes the aliens change commander often.
- The commander can remote-infest human resource-towers so they slowly take damage over time until removed (50res).
- Can produce poisonous glands on infestation near the hive (14res pr gland) - Marines take small amount of damage over time
- Psychic hive scream - Disorient invading marines for 2 sec (30 res pr hivescream) - Requires good coordination and teamwork to be useful
- Glowie boost - Temporarily boosts the amount of glowies in the hive area to increase the spawn rate shortly. (30 res, doubles spawn rate, lasts 30 seconds)
- Tentacle lash - Kick back marines standing just next to the tentacles (5 res) - Get marines to a distance of the hive to make it harder to shoot directly at.
Each of the commander abilities can be incredibly useful and powerful in situations, which is why I made them so expensive. That way it requires very good coordination
to use these abilities well. The price also encourages many different aliens to become commander over the game while the marines typically only select 1 commander.
This emphasizes the individuality of the aliens even though they have hivemind and there are both defensive as well as offensive abilities.
Also the alien commander has only control over the environment around the hives (except it can remote-infest marine restowers through pipe-systems) and can't give alien players commands. Again you treat the aliens as individual organisms.
- Makes the hive an actual "playable" character in some sense.
I do like the concept of the aliens getting more 'active' comm abilities as opposed to the marines passive upgrades.
- All alien characters leave a pheromone around when they move, invisible to all except for the AC. This pheromone gradually decays over time though.
+ View is always that of one of the alien players(not topdown like the marine commander), so in a sense its like spectator mode. However it can also roam by using the pheromone as a sort of track, so it can view the present alien location or its recent travel path.
+ The AC can detect very specific information about Marine/Marine buildings if they are within proximity to an alien player. IE things like health, armor, weapon type, ammo left, maybe even their orders, thus letting the alien it is spectating know valuable information about its opponent.
Visually it would be displayed like annotations to scent of fear
+ The AC can 'tag' or illuminate(similar to scent of fear) specific targets which become viewable to all aliens, allowing aliens to focus attacks on certain things.
+ No direct control over building(left to gorges) but it can lay out suggestions for gorges to build specific buildings. Gorges can choose to ignore though if they wish.
+ Can reassign resources from certain aliens to others(possible safety though like leaving a certain amount for an upgrade or 2) to prevent hoarding or just for efficiency
+ AC can also lay down waypoints to specific areas using the map
+ Can have as many ACs as there are hives but as such the alien team will lose a potentially valuable player from the front lines. benefits are with large scale games where you might have clueless people etc
+ Possible influence over the infestation(although I dont know if there are any real benefits to this)
cant think of anything else, but that would certainly be a different experience to the marine com
sigh..
well this says it all:
<!--QuoteBegin-Align+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Align)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If they take from their own resource pool that negates the entire point of implementing the alien commander in the first place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I also don't like the idea you suggested - that the alien comm has so little control over buildings to place <i>(unless this was based on the above assumption, where if it's your own resources, you'll spend it your way)</i>. The alien comm is essentially the great unifier - unify resources, unify the team, unify the strategy.
For instance, if a lone rine or two of them enters the room then the glowies could swarm them - at the least brightening their screen and distracting them or at the most disturbing their aim etc, this of course would be stoppable via a hive rush where the glowies would leg it back to the hive or maybe even become unusable if the commander scans so as not to stop hive rushes with shotties etc.
I know the whole way the game is played is likely to evolve but thought this might be a nice addition using your current concepts.
kinda like star wars republic commando?
I haven't read all the responses yet (geesh!) but I did want to make one point:
An Alien Commander will <b>ONLY be included if it is totally unique and not like the Marine Commander</b>. You absolutely won't see an Alien Comm. dropping medpacks and giving orders to squads of aliens. It's just not going to happen, there would be no point. More important than an Alien Commander is <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/about/" target="_blank">two unique sides</a> (it's first in the list and definitely the most important point). <b>The only reason I think we will have an Alien Comm. at all is to unify the resource model and make the game more uniform and balanced at all server sizes.</b> <b>If it feels generic or removes the uniqueness from the aliens, it will be removed</b>.
We should be able to fix the volume problem for future videocasts.
-Charlie<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
From the bolded part of your post, I am guessing the Alien Commander gets all the resources and distributes them between players?
If that's how it may work, I don't really like that idea mainly because it may mean that the aliens would be too dependent on getting res from the alien commander, some aliens might not be able to do whatever they want.
I like aliens, and playing as aliens more than marines because aliens allows players to do basically anything they want. Unlike the Marines, where they depend on getting equipment and structures from the commander, aliens can just do whatever they want without the need of a "commander".
Now I know the alien commander may not like what I described above but I'm just pointing that out, just in case that is what you may have in mind for an alien commander.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only reason I think we will have an Alien Comm. at all is to unify the resource model and make the game more uniform and balanced at all server sizes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Personally, I think aliens are balanced on all server sizes, well at least in big servers. I play often on a 15v15 server, no mods or plugins or anything that affects gameplay. I'd say the game is fairly balance.
Yes aliens do get very little resources when it's divided by 15 players, but it's not as bad as it sounds. Players are encouraged to work together and attack an area together and get kills for resources. Resources from kills makes a huge difference, usually a few players manage to get 50 resources in the 3-4 minute mark, enough to build a hive.
Kills mean a lot to aliens(in 15v15, especially) because more kills = more resources = more resources to use to build more structures or to gestate into new lifeforms. To get kills, aliens need to organize attacks, work together and ambush the marines, etc.
Because of the way aliens get resources individually/separately AND aliens have the flexibility of doing anything they want, I think it encourages a lot of team work for the alien team.
Without getting further into detail of what a 15v15 is like(for those who never played), I'd say it's fairly balance. When I say it's fairly balance, I mean it. If both teams had equally skilled and cooperative players, marines and aliens would probably each win 50/50.
I played both marines and aliens enough on the 15v15 to know that the game is fairly balance, even though the alien team's resources are divided 15 ways.
This is just to point out that 15v15 is fairly balanced and the resource model/system for aliens works, even 15v15 games, in case any of you developers were wondering if the resource system needs adjustment for the aliens or not.
I haven't read all thread replies (but many), seen great ideas from members, but missed some "realistic" (I know, were alking about aliens) points with that Hive/Commander issue... Fuzilogic scored with that particular idea (didn't check if someone else did suggest it):
<!--quoteo(post=1669272:date=Feb 2 2008, 02:34 AM:name=fuzilogic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fuzilogic @ Feb 2 2008, 02:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1669272"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->+ Can have as many ACs as there are hives but as such the alien team will lose a potentially valuable player from the front lines. benefits are with large scale games where you might have clueless people etc<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was just thinking the same, which I want put together with other ideas:
I really do agree with people saying the alien "commander" should stop being called so, at once. Like the "Hivemind" name some people proposed. It won't be the same role as a rine commander, doesn't sound realistic (""), and make people think about an adaptation of the rine commander to alien assets... Like having <b>only one</b> mind/commander. And I <b>cannot</b> imagine a hive <b>without</b> a mind, if it has to be integrated in NS2. For me, as for Fuzilogic, it has to be a hive-related concept, not a team-related one. Like a kind of Area Control Mind, centered arount a particular hive. Why only have a single "intelligent" planifier for alien swarm? This is just an anthropomorphist idea <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
So having a Mind for each Hive, I easily <u><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->imagine a gorge becoming the Mind of a given Hive by simply evolving into it<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></u>! It really sounds logical to me... One gorge, evolving into one hive, this way beconming one "Mind". The player <b>is</b> the Hive. When the Hive is destroyed (or killed, since now it would be really be alive), so is the player. And another gorge shall attempt to evolve as a Hive later on.... What can be more realistic? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Last, I think those minds should <b>not</b> be able to control other alien players in any way... Like others said before, one "hive area mind" should only help other alien players in the area by droping some (few) pheromons and controlling environment (DI, all infested human structures, etc). Also by being able to use some defensive actions of the Hive itself (slaping, deploying poison fog, ...), managing (local) flies/eggs production... Also ressources would be allocated on an area basis, that is, additional ressources would be earned from only this Hive area.
Just think about that new evolving tree branch: <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skulk.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::skulk::" border="0" alt="skulk.gif" /> -> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/pudgy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::gorge::" border="0" alt="pudgy.gif" /> -> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/hive5.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::hive::" border="0" alt="hive5.gif" />
<img src="http://www.lerk.de/bilder/hive-alien-commaner.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />