Development Blog Update - Unknown Worlds Podcast #25
Flayra
Game Director, Unknown Worlds EntertainmentSan Francisco Join Date: 2002-01-22 Member: 3Super Administrators, NS2 Developer, Subnautica Developer
Game Director, Unknown Worlds EntertainmentSan Francisco Join Date: 2002-01-22 Member: 3Super Administrators, NS2 Developer, Subnautica Developer
Comments
I'll edit this post after I get to listen closely to the podcast. I just wanted to voice my support. (sheesh now it feels like a race to complete ns_eis)
/me drops and SC and disappears
Hey bty is that glowee eating the plant in the lower right part of the image ? Are they herbivores or omnivores ? Hmm I wonder it the carnivores in that ecosystem might get energy from them. If so make sure you have enough fiddling about to snack on LOL
i think the skylight will be an amazing addition, but to contrast differnent parts of the map you will still need plenty of dark areas or rooms with fluroesent lighting. if you had to walk half way across the map, passing through dimly lit corridors, glowing furnace areas, flickering lights in certain rooms, when you finally arrive to the biodome with its natural flowing light, it would make it that much more impressive.
BTW there's only one thing missing from the biodome concept - where's pauly shore? LOL
Good to hear that he's back in team. Though I was expecting something more from this podcast
so whats the release date? j/k <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Please consider map dynamics as well - Source has some amazing tools with inputs and outputs, they can allow for very diverse, fascinating gameplay if used tastefully.
I think light rooms are not a good starting point for aliens.
The atmosphere is still very nice, but I don't think it fits the NS1 one.
And really, this all depends on how the game's mechanics end up working.
It would be cool to see a Marine Start concept or two.
Maybe with a command chair...
...I'm having a little trouble with that room for the film.
I really can't wait to play this game.
Since most lighting in Source is pre-compiled into the map (unlike say doom3) I doubt dynamic infestation will be able to block light from the sky. I can see UWE have been influenced by the popularity of sunny FPS environments like Farcry and Dust, but it strikes me as really bad news for the team without guns.
Kind of disappointed you didn't talk more about the marines purcahsing weapons whose prototype proved so contentious following the last podcast.
Very pleased to hear squeal joining the team full time, I think his influence and inspiration it will bring a great improvement.
<b>1. Bright Alien environments</b>
Since Aliens are the <i>unknown</i>, they are supposed to be the sinister team. The way they move and attack (ambush, cloak, sudden leaps, incapacitating webs) all goes to create an eerie feel to the game when playing as a Marine. Having bright, airy Hives just doesn't fit with this mood.
It also breaks a strong design point most of NS's maps had. For me, as you enter deeper into Alien territory, the environment should feel more hostile. One of the basic trends in NS has been the movement from well-lit Marine areas to more sombre, more dangerous Alien territory. This not only creates mood but it also acts as a very subtle but very intuitive signposting system: if you're moving towards darker areas you're moving towards where the Aliens are likely to be. This makes a massive improvement to map navigation and helps new players learn maps quickly. As I say, playing with this balance is basically breaking a very effective system that can be harnessed to great reward.
<b>2. Charlie's comment on persistent play and environments</b>
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you spend so many hours playing a game I think it's really nice to be somewhere that's a more beautiful environment than somewhere that's dingier and creepier.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The fact is in a multiplayer, the more you play, for every player the aethetic elements become de-emphasised (as the non-essential information gets condensed into 'chunks' in the brain's memory) and the formal elements gain a stronger focus. The fact that the Hive is more aesthetically beautiful has absolutely no impact on persistent play, it's the way it works in terms of the game's mechanics that should be receiving the greatest attention. See Jesper Juul "Half-Real: Videogames between Real Rules and Fictional Worlds" and Raph Koster "A Theory of Fun for Game Design".
<b>3. Spaciousness and Hives</b>
This brings me to the next major point about the concept art. Even if we ignore the general lighting scheme, the actual architectral design is very weak for an Alien Hive. It looks the size of Refinery in Bast, which is a terrible Hive for Aliens because of the vast distances they have to travel and the massive advantage Jetpackers get over all Alien lifeforms. Even if Jetpackers aren't used, Marines can still place PGs far from the Hive and still have line of sight. I understand this is a concept piece, but I really hope that whoever you have mapping this knows not to take the concept art at face value, and understands just how much it needs to be adapted from the outset to fit with NS's gameplay.
Also it would make sense that an organism like that would prefer sunlight. Most hive rooms in the current ns are near a heat source. Engine, furnace, biodome, ventilation etc. So a greenhouse would presumedly be ideal. And u assume the light is an advantage. To me those rays of light looked strong enough to obscure vision.
These issues aside, i think it is also a mistake to assume the aesthetic is unimportant, even in multiplayer. I really do think that many people have turned away from ns because it looks old. IMMERSION is so important. It makes people feel like they are part of a game, and makes them more likely to play again. Don't get me wrong, games that spend far too much time on the gloss have got the balance wrong, and an average game is the result. But, that said, i'm really looking forward to a visually impressive game.
PS: UWE team, i have not played NS in more that 18 months now. The Australian community is gone, RIP ausNS. But i know there is a community in hibernation down here... so give us an awesome game to revive it! I know you will <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
<b>1. Bright Alien environments</b>
Since Aliens are the <i>unknown</i>, they are supposed to be the sinister team. The way they move and attack (ambush, cloak, sudden leaps, incapacitating webs) all goes to create an eerie feel to the game when playing as a Marine. Having bright, airy Hives just doesn't fit with this mood.
It also breaks a strong design point most of NS's maps had. For me, as you enter deeper into Alien territory, the environment should feel more hostile. One of the basic trends in NS has been the movement from well-lit Marine areas to more sombre, more dangerous Alien territory. This not only creates mood but it also acts as a very subtle but very intuitive signposting system: if you're moving towards darker areas you're moving towards where the Aliens are likely to be. This makes a massive improvement to map navigation and helps new players learn maps quickly. As I say, playing with this balance is basically breaking a very effective system that can be harnessed to great reward.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I imagine Cory's concept is of a hive so newly constructed that it has not yet had the time to spread infestation. I have very quickly modified Cory's concept to show what I think it might look like a few moments after the hive is built, when the infestation begins to spread. I imagine things will feel extremely hostile after a minute or two.
<img src="http://www.adam.com.au/thelanges/ns2/biohive.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
(the little dots everywhere are supposed to be infestation spores or something)
I also think that DI will add a lot of atmosphere to yet rather clean and bright scenes, especially considering that DI is also supposed to shut down some lights/light emitting computers/etc.
I fully agree to my foreposters, DI can get it darker and hostile, but don't overbright it. It would ruin the hostile athmosphere.
P.S: let's get a paypal account up to buy the guys an AC! ;D
Do Work!
I like the idea of having natural sunlight and environments that look like they were inhabited until recently. Will there be a day night cycle for the sunlight?
I'm not sure if I like the brighter maps yet, but I find it really hard to imagine what it'll look like ingame.
Also, was it just me or did our 'piggy' friend sound a little nervous?
<img src="http://fc02.deviantart.com/fs26/f/2008/164/3/0/NS2_Biosphere_1680x1050_by_Th3Juic3.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
I'm realy looking forward to this game. i hope is going to be as great as it sounds <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
I honestly cannot think of any NS1 map where this applies. I can't think of too many 'dark areas' off the top of my head, however, I have jacked up my brightness to max and may have even tweaked gamma. I would assume that most players also adjust brightness, but I don't really know.
I think a much better signposting system would be DI. Instead of having predetermined dark areas around the map, DI would let the player know more efficiently that they're about to enter a hostile area and if they continue on their path eventually they'll hit a hive.
Also, I don't think a couple of bright hives are a bad idea. Even on maps with bright hives I would assume there would still be darker areas - I doubt the whole map would be as bright as a sun room. If the devs are trying to tell a story on each map, and for one map that story is "the aliens came and took over a terraforming research station" clearly there would be bright areas some of which may be hives. Who knows - maybe the next 'story' they want to tell is one of an abandoned underground mining station that's running on flickering backup power.
I just see this as a little variety, and as such, don't think it's anything to get too concerned about. Now, if every hive was a happy-bright-fun-time then I'd start to worry.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>2. Charlie's comment on persistent play and environments</b>
The fact is in a multiplayer, the more you play, for every player the aethetic elements become de-emphasised ...The fact that the Hive is more aesthetically beautiful has absolutely no impact on persistent play<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed. Aesthetic elements can even become annoying when all I want to do is get some kills. It seems Charlie defined "beautiful" as an opposite of "dark and gritty." I don't think thats necessarily the case, but maybe the message that they are trying to get across is that NS2 maps aren't going to be pigeonholed into being called "cold" / "dark" / "abandoned" / etc.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>3. Spaciousness and Hives</b>
the actual architectral design is very weak for an Alien Hive....I really hope that whoever you have mapping this knows not to take the concept art at face value<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed. That is not an alien friendly hive, however I don't think we'd see this <i>exact</i> hive in the game. I even remember hearing about how hives may not have predetermined spots (I think I heard that, anyway) and at this point in the development stage maybe the dev's don't even know how they want hives to work. I'd think this concept piece was used more for getting the 'feel' of the map rather than source material for individual rooms.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->These issues aside, i think it is also a mistake to assume the aesthetic is unimportant, even in multiplayer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I never said it was unimportant. I just believe that Charlie's comment about making it bright with longplay in mind is slightly flawed. Making it bright with the first impressions of the game in mind is a far less flawed argument.
To reiterate what Chrome said: it is highly unlikely that the UWE team has found some way to make DI affect the overall lighting. The only way this could happen is if they had the Hive (or maybe a DI_presence entity) triggering a set of lights to turn off. This would add a lot of work for mappers when creating Hive rooms (although it would be a pretty nice effect). The problem here is that it would mean Marines no longer have to check for cloaked Hives by firing at them or moving into them.
The 'mist' effect would be interesting, but there is an issue with these sort of effects creating a lot of lag (at least they did on the GoldSrc engine).
To whomever said 'plants need light to grow': artificial 'grow lamps' are in common usage today. There's nothing to say they would be less feasible in the imagined future of the NS universe. You can even see the 'plant-pods' have lights built into them. Therefore it seems safe to say the skylight is primarily an artistic choice, and one that I would argue would seem to compromise gameplay (based off the current info we have).
Lastly what I said about spaciousness still stands. This is less a concern about the CA and more one about making sure that the mapper's interpret and adapt the CA to their needs, instead of just copying it wholesale.
[EDIT]
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think a much better signposting system would be DI. Instead of having predetermined dark areas around the map, DI would let the player know more efficiently that they're about to enter a hostile area and if they continue on their path eventually they'll hit a hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I agree that DI would be a much more effective system, both in how it can operate procedurally (not requiring extra efforts on the part of the mapper) and also how it fits more closely with the theme. If DI did work how we all think it's going to work, then I'm fine with it replacing darkness as a signposting system.
Perhaps the brighter maps idea is an effort to minimalise the need/advantage for 'gamma hax'.
P.S. I agree with SentrySteve on all his points (although I am incredibly wary about the notion of non-mapper-defined Hive locations, but that's another discussion).
P.P.S. Almost all maps use this technique (a lot don't use it explicitly), even veil has a subtle light-dark lighting system.