moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1696060:date=Dec 13 2008, 05:05 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Kouji_San @ Dec 13 2008, 05:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1696060"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not sure why, but sounds are indeed better in goldSRC... I mean WTF!!!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The way our brains localize sound is extremely situation dependent, so I could imagine that it's just a matter of getting used to it. (As an example, putting on a hat can screw up your localization of sound until you get used to it because it changes the way sound flows around your head.) I'd love to hear what technical things they do to suggest it though, because there are definitely well studied ways of making sound 3d that would be neat if they implemented.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tin Foil Hat: The Tin Foil Hat blinds sentries, making them ignore the scout. If, for some reason, the sentry begins to fire (at an enemy player) the scout can still be hurt by stray rockets/bullets. Most of you are probably thinking that this is way overpowered. But the scout is so fast that often his Tin Foil Hat falls off. To keep the hat on his head he must equip it, (holdind it on.) This makes capturing the intel/ getting behind enemy lines much easier, but to attack you must reveal yourself to nearby sentries.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I must say I like the idea. Change it to have some kind of charge and vision decreasing and we got a winnar.
<!--quoteo(post=1696234:date=Dec 17 2008, 06:15 AM:name=moultano)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(moultano @ Dec 17 2008, 06:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1696234"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The way our brains localize sound is extremely situation dependent, so I could imagine that it's just a matter of getting used to it. (As an example, putting on a hat can screw up your localization of sound until you get used to it because it changes the way sound flows around your head.) I'd love to hear what technical things they do to suggest it though, because there are definitely well studied ways of making sound 3d that would be neat if they implemented.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I think the main difference is how sound echoes in the later Source games. In L4D it's impossible to pinpoint a Boomer sometimes in outdoor sections with rocky terrain surrounding you. The sound bounces around everywhere and it seems to come from all directions. Also how in Source they have changed what sound you can hear depending on where you turn your screen, which wasn't as severe/refined in GoldSrc games.
QuaunautThe longest seven days in history...Join Date: 2003-03-21Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
Inspired by my DK in WoW:
Chain-Gun!
Its like a grappling hook, but if it hooks onto players, it pulls them back at the Scout, while if it hits a wall it pulls him forward. He could even switch weapons once its pulled them back or pulled him forward, and ready his shotty.
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
<!--quoteo(post=1696308:date=Dec 18 2008, 02:36 AM:name=Quaunaut)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Quaunaut @ Dec 18 2008, 02:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1696308"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Inspired by my DK in WoW:
Chain-Gun!
Its like a grappling hook, but if it hooks onto players, it pulls them back at the Scout, while if it hits a wall it pulls him forward. He could even switch weapons once its pulled them back or pulled him forward, and ready his shotty.
Imagine zipping past sentries like that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> While that might be fun, it definitely doesn't fit with TF2.
You also could have said it was inspired by the hook mod in Quake 3... or Counterstrike... both of which were probably the inspiration for the Chain-Gun in WoW. (And are also endlessly more fun in a 3d fps than I imagine it would be in WoW)
<!--quoteo(post=1696308:date=Dec 18 2008, 07:36 AM:name=Quaunaut)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Quaunaut @ Dec 18 2008, 07:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1696308"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Inspired by my DK in WoW:
Chain-Gun!
Its like a grappling hook, but if it hooks onto players, it pulls them back at the Scout, while if it hits a wall it pulls him forward. He could even switch weapons once its pulled them back or pulled him forward, and ready his shotty.
Imagine zipping past sentries like that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really like how they gave the engy more toys and at the same time gave the spy better means to deal with said toys. Actually zappin teleporters (especially lvl 3 ones) is moderately useful now, forcing the engy out of his nest to rebuild it and even longer to upgrade it back. Add in the winbomb nerf and you got some balancing WINrar.
Furthermore, dispensers are actually useful to heal at, not taking a century or so for a heavy to get some health back. Why, adding two of em can more or less replace a medic.
Nao gimme scout upgrade(s). I have a few friends who wont play again til they release new stuff.
The demo nerf is silly. The developers said (there's quotes somewhere but I'm too lazy) the problem is he's too good at 1v1s.
Allowing you to destroy an enemy demo's stickies does absolutely nothing for 1v1- it only nerfs his ability to lock down areas.
And I think most people who think the demo is OP are pandering to the "someone said he's OP on the forums so I think it too" train of thought. I can't speak for America, but in Europe I never see demos dominating a server. They were never overpowered to begin with- the 'problem' is that the skill ceiling for a demo is much higher e.g.: a great demo is a great player (but still keeps his shorcomings- i.e. fighting at close range) but a great pyro is a mediocre player. You don't simply choose the demo class on next spawn and become a ten times better player- it takes skill and smarts. Rather than nerfing the demo the devs should look at ways to the raise the skill ceiling for other classes.
But it's a sign of the times- modern multiplayer games all try to play off teamwork at the expense of everything else. Not a bad move from a developer's wallet point of view (casual console players can have fun) but entertaining hardcore games like Street Fighter 2 Turbo, Quake deathmatch and Starcraft are a dying (read: dying not dead) breed in the Western world.
AbraWould you kindlyJoin Date: 2003-08-17Member: 19870Members
<!--quoteo(post=1696625:date=Dec 23 2008, 06:30 PM:name=sherpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(sherpa @ Dec 23 2008, 06:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1696625"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The demo nerf is silly. The developers said (there's quotes somewhere but I'm too lazy) the problem is he's too good at 1v1s.
Allowing you to destroy an enemy demo's stickies does absolutely nothing for 1v1- it only nerfs his ability to lock down areas.
And I think most people who think the demo is OP are pandering to the "someone said he's OP on the forums so I think it too" train of thought. I can't speak for America, but in Europe I never see demos dominating a server. They were never overpowered to begin with- the 'problem' is that the skill ceiling for a demo is much higher e.g.: a great demo is a great player (but still keeps his shorcomings- i.e. fighting at close range) but a great pyro is a mediocre player. You don't simply choose the demo class on next spawn and become a ten times better player- it takes skill and smarts. Rather than nerfing the demo the devs should look at ways to the raise the skill ceiling for other classes.
But it's a sign of the times- modern multiplayer games all try to play off teamwork at the expense of everything else. Not a bad move from a developer's wallet point of view (casual console players can have fun) but entertaining hardcore games like Street Fighter 2 Turbo, Quake deathmatch and Starcraft are a dying (read: dying not dead) breed in the Western world.
IMO.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think they nerfed it because of his baseblowing ability?
I play as demo almost exclusively and I feel that it was a needed change. The idea of the sticky is to put it somewhere the enemy won't notice until it's too late. Allowing your stickies to be easily broken if spotted just reinforces this requirement. If you know what you are doing with demoman this change didn't really do anything.
What it DOES do is remove the obvious out-in-the-open stickyfield as an impassable obstacle. Few classes had the means to quickly dispose of a stickyfield no matter how glaringly obvious. Most classes would be stopped by even the most carelessly placed stickyfield as surely as if a wall had been erected.
A care- or skillfully placed stickyfield remains as useful as ever.
The demoman should have his stickies replaced with plastic explosives that require the demo be close to the wall/ground/ceiling to place, and only four max. The regular grenade launcher needs more than four grenades. Stickies should not be used offensively, and making them more difficult and hazardous to place would be a start towards a defensive weapon.
That's the problem with the current demo class. Let's list the perks:
-4 Grenades with the GL.
These grenades shoot out faster than the sticky launcher. And they do crazy ass dmg. Direct hit promises almost insta-kill with the lesser classes. (read:eng/scout etc etc)
-8 sticky bombs. Slower rof, but offers area denial. etc.
Nothing to be said that hasn't already been said. Why 8? A bit overkill imo. And factor in the chance to gather a crit sticky is increased = GG.
Valve has developed the demo class into something else. It's suppose to guard entrances. Guard the intel. Ensure bottlenacks are trapped nicely. It's the de facto BoobyTRAPPER class for TF. Now it's a glorified sentry buster. Much easier to uber a demo, lob the motherload of stickies and watch them be blown to bits. Who needs a spy? Kickback from sentries? No problem. Pyro can't get fast enough to sentry camps due to massive kickback. Their fire range wouldn't help fast enough. Soldiers fire their rockets . We know how that one goes with the upgraded dispensers.
- Decent health and speed. Strafe L-R + stickey = win.
Doesn't take much skill to play a demo at all in TF2. Back in TFC, it was a sight to behold to actually see a demo that actually <i>assaults</i>.
<!--quoteo(post=1697152:date=Jan 5 2009, 03:43 AM:name=LockNLoaded)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(LockNLoaded @ Jan 5 2009, 03:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1697152"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why 8? A bit overkill imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's actually something I've though about, and I wonder if they even put much thought into it. TFC demo had 6/6, but could still lay a total of 8 remote-dets. It almost makes me think they just upped his clip size to match, and lower the nades to keep the 12 total non-reload shots available. :/
Disagree with everything LockNLoaded has to say- especially:
<!--quoteo(post=1697152:date=Jan 5 2009, 09:43 AM:name=LockNLoaded)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(LockNLoaded @ Jan 5 2009, 09:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1697152"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Doesn't take much skill to play a demo at all in TF2. Back in TFC, it was a sight to behold to actually see a demo that actually <i>assaults</i>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
2 issues:
1. The skillcap in TF2 is low, it's supposed to be a game Johnny Q. Casual Player can pick up a year from now and still compete with the experienced players. 2. Name a TF2 class that requires more skill than the demo. Okay- you didn't say the demo is less skillful than other TF2 classes, but he needs more about him than any other class.
I tried playing pyro by holding down mouse1 and w. The results may surprise you: I ended up out of ammo and running against the wall outside spawn. Then I got killed by a soldier. With the shovel.
"lol class X takes no skill" and "lol class Y takes much skill" arguments bore me and are ALWAYS biased.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1697184:date=Jan 5 2009, 09:41 PM:name=sherpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(sherpa @ Jan 5 2009, 09:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1697184"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2. Name a TF2 class that requires more skill than the demo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I could name one that is probably the least enjoyable class for Johnny Q. Casual right off the bat, this would be the spy. The only class where it is not possible to get a reliable amount of kills/assists by spamming bullets/projectiles in a general direction (newbie playstyle <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" /> ).
To be fair, most classes other then spy and sniper are playable as spam classes, yes even medic's needle rain <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> And sniper, well let's just say there are a lot of predictable spots to cover, the only real threat here are other snipers who are seemingly lured into sniper wars most of the time. And of course a good spy that is able to close the distance...
Skill and TF2, meh I don't really see it. Sure the game is very easy to learn, but lets be honest here, it is also quite easy to master. Lacking a lot of depth and random stuff to throw skill right back in yar face <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Actually, it's pretty easy to get a decent number of assists and some kills as well with a spy, simply through cautious revolvering. Play the class as if you didn't have disguises (in fact, don't disguise at all - if you do, it'll only attract attention once you're found out, and you WANT the opponents to underestimate you), and only use cloaking to run away, if at all, and you'll do okay because the revolver does so hefty damage. You can kill weakened opponents at ranges where only snipers would otherwise be a threat, or you can weaken opponents so that at an ally can finish them off with ease, netting you an assist. The spy is only "different" if you try to play it the way it was intended. Sure, you'll never be a top scorer this way, but you won't be the bottom feeder either.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
True, there is that powerfull sixshooter. Allthough other the classes give you more spamability, which in turn does give you more/easier kills. And last I checked, most players base their enjoyment on their score. Silly people they be <img src="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/style_images/1/folder_post_icons/icon6.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
All that ranting about my misgivings for the demo class i forgot what this thread was all about. The demo class is just begging for a nerf. Having them stickies destructible by bullets is just a temporary (read: a few secs) solution when any decent demo would blow them up and re-lay them all over again. Valve needs to do something about those numbers.
I agree that TF2 is "thumbed down" and "newbie friendly"...and that is why its doing so well for a game you can jump into easily after a hard day's work. And have some fun fragging.
But for those that say TF2 doesn't need any skill probably hasn't played a clan scrim AT ALL. Domination takes on a whole different feel unlike in those crappy pub games (aka target practice).
Not sure if this has been discussed but whatever happen to the scout de-cloaking abilities? Right now scouts don't get any incentive for <i>scouting</i> out other than being sentry fodder.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
I seriously still fail to see the hate for the Demo.
An unskilled Demo rather sucks, and can be easily countered now by destroying his bombs (HWGs are perfect for the obvious sticky fields), and his pipe launcher is rather pointless if you can't aim.
A Skilled Demo is a royal pita, but has some good counters as well. You can no longer remove his traps, as by the time you see em, you are dead, and his pipes are now deadly because he can aim. As it stands, his pipes still deal less damage on a direct hit then a soldier, and are harder to hit with. He has no mid/long range retaliatory reactions, close range he will probably hit you with a few pipes dead on. If the engie isn't really on his toes he can take down SGs nice and fast (I have defended an SG vs a demo with just a pistol before the newest patch, I am fairly sure I can do it after even easier). I mean, really the main problem is that good sticky traps are the bane of my existence because my main class is scout, and I play against a few good demos that can effectively block my passage with good traps.
As a note on spies: IIRC you could walk through enemy spies in TFC, where as in TF2 you can't, and thus scouts (And all classes) have a quick and easy spy check now.
however, I expect to see scouts getting a spy check and a SG counter with the update.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1697225:date=Jan 6 2009, 10:45 AM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Align @ Jan 6 2009, 10:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1697225"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think you could walk through players at all in TFC, same team or not. Exception for spies that play dead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> right, that was it!
I knew I was wrong, but I also knew that there was no way to spycheck with out spychecking...
I like my scout vs sentry upgrade <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
Shooting apart stickys is just a tiny tiny nerf kind of how I thought the pyro airblast could clear sentries from sticky fields but noooo, bombs IN the turret or on the other SIDE is unaffected. Same story here, you cant shoot the stickys that are lodged inside the sentry model. All this nerf does is avoiding massive sticky fields of unavoidable doom (which is good) but you still get enough of them in your face to die regardless as they are only vulnerable to damage after been a second on the ground. Choose to either shoot stickys around your feet or on the demoman himself and you will always loose doing the first. As others said as well, add in critchance and it's pretty darn mighty. This is why I like non-crit servers in one hand but dislike them because the heavy never gets his critstream which mostly stand for over half of his kills normally.
Also the demo has excellent long/mid range capabilities. No other class can threaten him on a long distance except the sniper but the demo doesn't need to charge his damage to shoot far, only the distance, without penalty to movement. I can't tell how many times I've fragged a sniper by just charging up a sticky and lobbing it across the map in his face just as I pass a corner. Versus a soldier on midrange he can shoot a lot more then the soldier and force him to move forward while backing away faster, making dodging and targeting easier, even less need to charge up for the distance. The only real threat is a enemy right in his face, a scout in open field or a rocketjumping soldier unless he has godlike aim with pipes. Nevertheless all 3 of these can be countered by sticky jumping away and demos has a lot more control over height and distance then a soldier to avoid death falls.
<!--quoteo(post=1697219:date=Jan 6 2009, 03:04 PM:name=Thansal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Thansal @ Jan 6 2009, 03:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1697219"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As it stands, his pipes still deal less damage on a direct hit then a soldier[...]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, they don't. I've played scout a lot, and I have received direct hits by both grenades and rockets, both at short and long ranges. A non-crit rocket has never managed to kill me at full health, a non-crit grenade has. And I've double-checked this after the recent patch, so I am certain those grenades weren't crit. Furthermore, TF2 Wiki agrees with me:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Note: Explosive damage varies depending on how it hits a player, the larger the classes hit box and the closer you are to the explosion the more damage you will take... Explosions do the most damage when they happen at the mid point of a player model, the explosion will cover more of the hit box and thus do the most damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never knew that, nor did I know the explosive damage of pipes had such large scale 64-132. Talk about irregular.
EDIT: [Rockets fired from a Level 3 Sentry can also be deflected.] :O
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1697231:date=Jan 6 2009, 11:34 AM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Jan 6 2009, 11:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1697231"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, they don't. I've played scout a lot, and I have received direct hits by both grenades and rockets, both at short and long ranges. A non-crit rocket has never managed to kill me at full health, a non-crit grenade has. And I've double-checked this after the recent patch, so I am certain those grenades weren't crit. Furthermore, TF2 Wiki agrees with me:
In fact, seems that grenades don't even have damage falloff.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
whups, I miss read that tbh.
Lolf is correct, ignore me <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Well, don't ignore.
I still don't care as it is damn harder to hit some one with a direct grenade (remember, bounce removes most of the damage).
Yes, in a game where most of the classes don't take much skill, and also do not reward skill that much, the Demo and the Spy are counterintuitive, but not over powered or anything.
Meh, my 2 rants are still: 1) Pyro: a single glancing shot and you NEED to go heal up. It isn't that I think they are easy or anything, they just annoy me as they take you out of combat almost immediately. 2) SGs vs Scouts. In a game that has no hard counters, the SG is a hard counter to the scout.
MY biggest gripe is still with the sniper. Turn a corner, headshot, dead. You can't fight back, and you can't dodge his projectiles. Sure, you can run around like a retard and hope to throw off his aim, but the better he gets, the less useful it becomes. If he can lay his crosshairs on your head and click mouse1 at the same time, he wins, and there is nothing you can do to counter it unless you yourself are a sniper or spy.
Comments
The way our brains localize sound is extremely situation dependent, so I could imagine that it's just a matter of getting used to it. (As an example, putting on a hat can screw up your localization of sound until you get used to it because it changes the way sound flows around your head.) I'd love to hear what technical things they do to suggest it though, because there are definitely well studied ways of making sound 3d that would be neat if they implemented.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tin Foil Hat: The Tin Foil Hat blinds sentries, making them ignore the scout. If, for some reason, the sentry begins to fire (at an enemy player) the scout can still be hurt by stray rockets/bullets. Most of you are probably thinking that this is way overpowered. But the scout is so fast that often his Tin Foil Hat falls off. To keep the hat on his head he must equip it, (holdind it on.) This makes capturing the intel/ getting behind enemy lines much easier, but to attack you must reveal yourself to nearby sentries.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I must say I like the idea. Change it to have some kind of charge and vision decreasing and we got a winnar.
Chain-Gun!
Its like a grappling hook, but if it hooks onto players, it pulls them back at the Scout, while if it hits a wall it pulls him forward. He could even switch weapons once its pulled them back or pulled him forward, and ready his shotty.
Imagine zipping past sentries like that.
Chain-Gun!
Its like a grappling hook, but if it hooks onto players, it pulls them back at the Scout, while if it hits a wall it pulls him forward. He could even switch weapons once its pulled them back or pulled him forward, and ready his shotty.
Imagine zipping past sentries like that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While that might be fun, it definitely doesn't fit with TF2.
You also could have said it was inspired by the hook mod in Quake 3... or Counterstrike... both of which were probably the inspiration for the Chain-Gun in WoW. (And are also endlessly more fun in a 3d fps than I imagine it would be in WoW)
Chain-Gun!
Its like a grappling hook, but if it hooks onto players, it pulls them back at the Scout, while if it hits a wall it pulls him forward. He could even switch weapons once its pulled them back or pulled him forward, and ready his shotty.
Imagine zipping past sentries like that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Link called, he wants his hookshot back :3
Furthermore, dispensers are actually useful to heal at, not taking a century or so for a heavy to get some health back. Why, adding two of em can more or less replace a medic.
Nao gimme scout upgrade(s). I have a few friends who wont play again til they release new stuff.
Allowing you to destroy an enemy demo's stickies does absolutely nothing for 1v1- it only nerfs his ability to lock down areas.
And I think most people who think the demo is OP are pandering to the "someone said he's OP on the forums so I think it too" train of thought. I can't speak for America, but in Europe I never see demos dominating a server. They were never overpowered to begin with- the 'problem' is that the skill ceiling for a demo is much higher e.g.: a great demo is a great player (but still keeps his shorcomings- i.e. fighting at close range) but a great pyro is a mediocre player. You don't simply choose the demo class on next spawn and become a ten times better player- it takes skill and smarts. Rather than nerfing the demo the devs should look at ways to the raise the skill ceiling for other classes.
But it's a sign of the times- modern multiplayer games all try to play off teamwork at the expense of everything else. Not a bad move from a developer's wallet point of view (casual console players can have fun) but entertaining hardcore games like Street Fighter 2 Turbo, Quake deathmatch and Starcraft are a dying (read: dying not dead) breed in the Western world.
IMO.
Allowing you to destroy an enemy demo's stickies does absolutely nothing for 1v1- it only nerfs his ability to lock down areas.
And I think most people who think the demo is OP are pandering to the "someone said he's OP on the forums so I think it too" train of thought. I can't speak for America, but in Europe I never see demos dominating a server. They were never overpowered to begin with- the 'problem' is that the skill ceiling for a demo is much higher e.g.: a great demo is a great player (but still keeps his shorcomings- i.e. fighting at close range) but a great pyro is a mediocre player. You don't simply choose the demo class on next spawn and become a ten times better player- it takes skill and smarts. Rather than nerfing the demo the devs should look at ways to the raise the skill ceiling for other classes.
But it's a sign of the times- modern multiplayer games all try to play off teamwork at the expense of everything else. Not a bad move from a developer's wallet point of view (casual console players can have fun) but entertaining hardcore games like Street Fighter 2 Turbo, Quake deathmatch and Starcraft are a dying (read: dying not dead) breed in the Western world.
IMO.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think they nerfed it because of his baseblowing ability?
A care- or skillfully placed stickyfield remains as useful as ever.
-4 Grenades with the GL.
These grenades shoot out faster than the sticky launcher. And they do crazy ass dmg. Direct hit promises almost insta-kill with the lesser classes. (read:eng/scout etc etc)
-8 sticky bombs.
Slower rof, but offers area denial. etc.
Nothing to be said that hasn't already been said. Why 8? A bit overkill imo. And factor in the chance to gather a crit sticky is increased = GG.
Valve has developed the demo class into something else. It's suppose to guard entrances. Guard the intel. Ensure bottlenacks are trapped nicely. It's the de facto BoobyTRAPPER class for TF. Now it's a glorified sentry buster. Much easier to uber a demo, lob the motherload of stickies and watch them be blown to bits. Who needs a spy? Kickback from sentries? No problem. Pyro can't get fast enough to sentry camps due to massive kickback. Their fire range wouldn't help fast enough. Soldiers fire their rockets . We know how that one goes with the upgraded dispensers.
- Decent health and speed.
Strafe L-R + stickey = win.
Doesn't take much skill to play a demo at all in TF2. Back in TFC, it was a sight to behold to actually see a demo that actually <i>assaults</i>.
I have no opinion on demoman at this time.
That's actually something I've though about, and I wonder if they even put much thought into it. TFC demo had 6/6, but could still lay a total of 8 remote-dets. It almost makes me think they just upped his clip size to match, and lower the nades to keep the 12 total non-reload shots available. :/
<!--quoteo(post=1697152:date=Jan 5 2009, 09:43 AM:name=LockNLoaded)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(LockNLoaded @ Jan 5 2009, 09:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1697152"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Doesn't take much skill to play a demo at all in TF2. Back in TFC, it was a sight to behold to actually see a demo that actually <i>assaults</i>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
2 issues:
1. The skillcap in TF2 is low, it's supposed to be a game Johnny Q. Casual Player can pick up a year from now and still compete with the experienced players.
2. Name a TF2 class that requires more skill than the demo. Okay- you didn't say the demo is less skillful than other TF2 classes, but he needs more about him than any other class.
"lol class X takes no skill" and "lol class Y takes much skill" arguments bore me and are ALWAYS biased.
I could name one that is probably the least enjoyable class for Johnny Q. Casual right off the bat, this would be the spy. The only class where it is not possible to get a reliable amount of kills/assists by spamming bullets/projectiles in a general direction (newbie playstyle <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" /> ).
To be fair, most classes other then spy and sniper are playable as spam classes, yes even medic's needle rain <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> And sniper, well let's just say there are a lot of predictable spots to cover, the only real threat here are other snipers who are seemingly lured into sniper wars most of the time. And of course a good spy that is able to close the distance...
Skill and TF2, meh I don't really see it. Sure the game is very easy to learn, but lets be honest here, it is also quite easy to master. Lacking a lot of depth and random stuff to throw skill right back in yar face <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
But it is fun, well at least for a while...
I agree that TF2 is "thumbed down" and "newbie friendly"...and that is why its doing so well for a game you can jump into easily after a hard day's work. And have some fun fragging.
But for those that say TF2 doesn't need any skill probably hasn't played a clan scrim AT ALL. Domination takes on a whole different feel unlike in those crappy pub games (aka target practice).
Not sure if this has been discussed but whatever happen to the scout de-cloaking abilities? Right now scouts don't get any incentive for <i>scouting</i> out other than being sentry fodder.
An unskilled Demo rather sucks, and can be easily countered now by destroying his bombs (HWGs are perfect for the obvious sticky fields), and his pipe launcher is rather pointless if you can't aim.
A Skilled Demo is a royal pita, but has some good counters as well. You can no longer remove his traps, as by the time you see em, you are dead, and his pipes are now deadly because he can aim. As it stands, his pipes still deal less damage on a direct hit then a soldier, and are harder to hit with. He has no mid/long range retaliatory reactions, close range he will probably hit you with a few pipes dead on. If the engie isn't really on his toes he can take down SGs nice and fast (I have defended an SG vs a demo with just a pistol before the newest patch, I am fairly sure I can do it after even easier). I mean, really the main problem is that good sticky traps are the bane of my existence because my main class is scout, and I play against a few good demos that can effectively block my passage with good traps.
As a note on spies:
IIRC you could walk through enemy spies in TFC, where as in TF2 you can't, and thus scouts (And all classes) have a quick and easy spy check now.
however, I expect to see scouts getting a spy check and a SG counter with the update.
right, that was it!
I knew I was wrong, but I also knew that there was no way to spycheck with out spychecking...
Shooting apart stickys is just a tiny tiny nerf kind of how I thought the pyro airblast could clear sentries from sticky fields but noooo, bombs IN the turret or on the other SIDE is unaffected. Same story here, you cant shoot the stickys that are lodged inside the sentry model. All this nerf does is avoiding massive sticky fields of unavoidable doom (which is good) but you still get enough of them in your face to die regardless as they are only vulnerable to damage after been a second on the ground. Choose to either shoot stickys around your feet or on the demoman himself and you will always loose doing the first. As others said as well, add in critchance and it's pretty darn mighty. This is why I like non-crit servers in one hand but dislike them because the heavy never gets his critstream which mostly stand for over half of his kills normally.
Also the demo has excellent long/mid range capabilities. No other class can threaten him on a long distance except the sniper but the demo doesn't need to charge his damage to shoot far, only the distance, without penalty to movement. I can't tell how many times I've fragged a sniper by just charging up a sticky and lobbing it across the map in his face just as I pass a corner. Versus a soldier on midrange he can shoot a lot more then the soldier and force him to move forward while backing away faster, making dodging and targeting easier, even less need to charge up for the distance. The only real threat is a enemy right in his face, a scout in open field or a rocketjumping soldier unless he has godlike aim with pipes. Nevertheless all 3 of these can be countered by sticky jumping away and demos has a lot more control over height and distance then a soldier to avoid death falls.
No, they don't. I've played scout a lot, and I have received direct hits by both grenades and rockets, both at short and long ranges. A non-crit rocket has never managed to kill me at full health, a non-crit grenade has. And I've double-checked this after the recent patch, so I am certain those grenades weren't crit. Furthermore, TF2 Wiki agrees with me:
<a href="http://tf2wiki.net/wiki/Grenade_launcher" target="_blank">Grenade Launcher</a>
<a href="http://tf2wiki.net/wiki/Rocket_launcher" target="_blank">Rocket Launcher</a>
In fact, seems that grenades don't even have damage falloff.
I never knew that, nor did I know the explosive damage of pipes had such large scale 64-132. Talk about irregular.
EDIT: [Rockets fired from a Level 3 Sentry can also be deflected.] :O
<a href="http://tf2wiki.net/wiki/Grenade_launcher" target="_blank">Grenade Launcher</a>
<a href="http://tf2wiki.net/wiki/Rocket_launcher" target="_blank">Rocket Launcher</a>
In fact, seems that grenades don't even have damage falloff.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
whups, I miss read that tbh.
Lolf is correct, ignore me <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Well, don't ignore.
I still don't care as it is damn harder to hit some one with a direct grenade (remember, bounce removes most of the damage).
Yes, in a game where most of the classes don't take much skill, and also do not reward skill that much, the Demo and the Spy are counterintuitive, but not over powered or anything.
Meh, my 2 rants are still:
1) Pyro: a single glancing shot and you NEED to go heal up. It isn't that I think they are easy or anything, they just annoy me as they take you out of combat almost immediately.
2) SGs vs Scouts. In a game that has no hard counters, the SG is a hard counter to the scout.