This may have been answered elsewhere, but when you guys wrote the new engine, did you use any sort of base for it, in the same way the original Half-Life engine was written on the Quake2 engine?
I'm just wondering if the engine and tools are now sole proprietary to UWE?
If so, if you are able to disconnect the platform dependencies of DirectX, to have a multi platform engine and toolset that can port to Mac/Linux could be a boon to your bottom line. The tools look top notch already, and I'm eagerly anticipating this game.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1699927:date=Feb 10 2009, 09:55 AM:name=radforChrist)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(radforChrist @ Feb 10 2009, 09:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1699927"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This may have been answered elsewhere, but when you guys wrote the new engine, did you use any sort of base for it, in the same way the original Half-Life engine was written on the Quake2 engine?
I'm just wondering if the engine and tools are now sole proprietary to UWE?
If so, if you are able to disconnect the platform dependencies of DirectX, to have a multi platform engine and toolset that can port to Mac/Linux could be a boon to your bottom line. The tools look top notch already, and I'm eagerly anticipating this game.
On the NSTR2 point, the sooner the better!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I don't remember them saying it was based off of anything. I know Max has been working on this engine for years prior to NS2, and it seemed implied that he wrote the engine from "scratch".
KungFuSquirrelBasher of MuttonsJoin Date: 2002-01-26Member: 103Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
<!--quoteo(post=1699927:date=Feb 10 2009, 08:55 AM:name=radforChrist)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(radforChrist @ Feb 10 2009, 08:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1699927"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This may have been answered elsewhere, but when you guys wrote the new engine, did you use any sort of base for it, in the same way the original Half-Life engine was written on the Quake2 engine?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quake! Over 10 years and there's still confusion! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm just wondering if the engine and tools are now sole proprietary to UWE?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yep, the engine uses known technology, but it is not based on other people's code. The engine (and the tools) are UWE all the way.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If so, if you are able to disconnect the platform dependencies of DirectX, to have a multi platform engine and toolset that can port to Mac/Linux could be a boon to your bottom line. The tools look top notch already, and I'm eagerly anticipating this game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The engine is written against the DirectX 9 libraries. Most of that is abstracted away, but the engine is not immediately portable to non-microsoft platforms. The tools are completely cross platform though. (Not sure how that works out exactly. The GUI is done with wxWidgets, but as I understand it, the viewer is largely a GUI wrapped around the engine itself. If the engine isn't porting, then I can't see how the viewer can function properly on other platforms.)
Immediately after the announcement of the new engine, there was a lot of buzz about Linux/Mac ports in the community. Sadly, the devs themselves are only talking about ports to microsoft consoles. I will stop myself now, because I feel a huge rant creeping towards my keyboard.
PrefixÉirinn go BráchJoin Date: 2006-12-31Member: 59353Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1699932:date=Feb 10 2009, 03:31 PM:name=Private)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Private @ Feb 10 2009, 03:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1699932"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sadly, the devs themselves are only talking about ports to microsoft consoles. I will stop myself now, because I feel a huge rant creeping towards my keyboard.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not entirely true, both Max and Charlie said that they probably would port to other platforms such as Mac and Linux, but it wouldn't be done at the same time as the Windows version.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's not entirely true, both Max and Charlie said that they probably would port to other platforms such as Mac and Linux, but it wouldn't be done at the same time as the Windows version.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You are right.
(<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=Search&CODE=show&searchid=2590d18d80088fc878cb297ce2d9ae59&search_in=posts&result_type=posts&highlite=%2BLinux" target="_blank">Here's</a> a few posts of interest (I'm linking to a forum search, I don't know how long the link will be good))
None of the devs seems very enthusiastic about an OpenGL engine though. And while the devs are almost equally dismissive about a console port (Not now, but perhaps after 1.0), there's a lot of thinking-about-console that makes it into the twitter feed and podcasts. This doesn't mean that they are more enthusiastic about consoles, that is just the distinct impression I get. I fear that if they ever get the resources to do some porting, they will focus on reworking gameplay to work on a console, rather than rework the engine to run on Linux.
I think the builder is the most impressive and interesting. Does it tag versions? Do you have 'daily builds' of assets? Can you roll back? You know there's probably a market for such a tool as cruise control/ant but for in-game assets, especially with the growing cost and complexity of artwork.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1699966:date=Feb 10 2009, 04:53 PM:name=Rob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rob @ Feb 10 2009, 04:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1699966"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the builder is the most impressive and interesting. Does it tag versions? Do you have 'daily builds' of assets? Can you roll back? You know there's probably a market for such a tool as cruise control/ant but for in-game assets, especially with the growing cost and complexity of artwork.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sounds like a cool idea, but being imgs instead of text I'd have to believe any img repository would get bogged down real fast.
<!--quoteo(post=1699968:date=Feb 10 2009, 04:57 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Feb 10 2009, 04:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1699968"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sounds like a cool idea, but being imgs instead of text I'd have to believe any img repository would get bogged down real fast.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
while its true there is more data in images then lines of text, hard drives and band width are cheap these days, even if you have a 1000 game builds, if each build of the game is 1gb, and you had to store the entire game every revision (which you don't) the cost of a hard drive big enough to store that repo is still under 500 dollars.
Also version control stuff can handle images and other files today, they just can't diff and merge them.
<!--quoteo(post=1699966:date=Feb 10 2009, 01:53 PM:name=Rob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rob @ Feb 10 2009, 01:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1699966"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the builder is the most impressive and interesting. Does it tag versions? Do you have 'daily builds' of assets? Can you roll back? You know there's probably a market for such a tool as cruise control/ant but for in-game assets, especially with the growing cost and complexity of artwork.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Revision control isn't part of the builder; for that we use Subversion.
When I was at Iron Lore I built a more complicated tool that handled revision control AND building of game assets, but it wasn't as good as an off-the shelf system like Perforce (which we used for code), and the artists were constantly fighting it and being annoyed. And of course since this was just a small part of my job, I never had enough time to make enhancements or support it as well as it needed.
The lesson I took away from that was it's better to build simple tools that can work together and with other tools. For example our art asset pipeline uses the Builder, a NVIDIA texture compression tool, Subversion, the FCollada plug-in for 3D Studio MAX, and our own model compiling tool. This saves effort by not duplicating the functionality we can get from 3rd parties, and also allows flexibility in how people work. For example, with Subversion we can use Tortise, SVN command line, a SVN client, etc. With COLLADA we can leverage other exporters and even support multiple art packages like Maya.
Enabling people to work the way they want to work is one of the guiding principles of our technology design, and so far I'm pretty happy with that direction.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Cory is messing around with some Flamethrower concepts<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Max, I hope you'll forgive me for being obnoxious in thinking that artists just need to be beaten into submission like coders have been when it comes to centralized version control. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
On a serious note, you answered my question fully. I still think the builder is the most impressive. I'm young and full of passion, you see.
Whoa, looking good! I love that siege gun animation, reminds me of starcrafts tanks when they showcased their big loads! Can’t wait for more videos like that one, even if it’s not the final game - THAT STUFF MOVES!! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
i was happy to see that your viewer has an option to view gloss but then was dissapointed to notice that you seem to not use any gloss textures. this indicates to me that you've decided to put technology restrictions on this game and therefore it will not be so spectacular and up to date.
<!--quoteo(post=1700348:date=Feb 14 2009, 08:22 AM:name=ViPr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ViPr @ Feb 14 2009, 08:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700348"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i was happy to see that your viewer has an option to view gloss but then was dissapointed to notice that you seem to not use any gloss textures. this indicates to me that you've decided to put technology restrictions on this game and therefore it will not be so spectacular and up to date.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It looked to me like they did in fact have a specular map, and that it was a colored specular map, which is preferable to the black and white ones.
<!--quoteo(post=1700348:date=Feb 14 2009, 02:22 PM:name=ViPr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ViPr @ Feb 14 2009, 02:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700348"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i was happy to see that your viewer has an option to view gloss but then was dissapointed to notice that you seem to not use any gloss textures. this indicates to me that you've decided to put technology restrictions on this game and therefore it will not be so spectacular and up to date.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We actually do have gloss maps...gloss maps, specular maps, normal maps, alpha maps, illumination maps, road maps...you want maps, we got 'em in NS2, don't worry.
<!--quoteo(post=1700358:date=Feb 14 2009, 04:14 PM:name=TychoCelchuuu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TychoCelchuuu @ Feb 14 2009, 04:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700358"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It looked to me like they did in fact have a specular map, and that it was a colored specular map, which is preferable to the black and white ones.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i think you are one of those people who think gloss maps and specular maps are the same thing but actually they are different and both are needed and yes one is color and the other is grey.
the specular map is basically for the color of the reflections and the gloss map affects the blurriness & clarity of the reflections because it's a generalized representation of the roughness & smoothness of a surface.
btw all the models shown in this video do not have a seperate gloss texture file listed with the other texture files. btw i see technical problems with the existing textures on the resource tower. i can elaborate if you guys want.
Amazing tools! These are the kind of tools i want when creating models for games <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Comments
I'm just wondering if the engine and tools are now sole proprietary to UWE?
If so, if you are able to disconnect the platform dependencies of DirectX, to have a multi platform engine and toolset that can port to Mac/Linux could be a boon to your bottom line. The tools look top notch already, and I'm eagerly anticipating this game.
On the NSTR2 point, the sooner the better!
I'm just wondering if the engine and tools are now sole proprietary to UWE?
If so, if you are able to disconnect the platform dependencies of DirectX, to have a multi platform engine and toolset that can port to Mac/Linux could be a boon to your bottom line. The tools look top notch already, and I'm eagerly anticipating this game.
On the NSTR2 point, the sooner the better!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I don't remember them saying it was based off of anything. I know Max has been working on this engine for years prior to NS2, and it seemed implied that he wrote the engine from "scratch".
Quake! Over 10 years and there's still confusion! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Yep, the engine uses known technology, but it is not based on other people's code. The engine (and the tools) are UWE all the way.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If so, if you are able to disconnect the platform dependencies of DirectX, to have a multi platform engine and toolset that can port to Mac/Linux could be a boon to your bottom line. The tools look top notch already, and I'm eagerly anticipating this game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The engine is written against the DirectX 9 libraries. Most of that is abstracted away, but the engine is not immediately portable to non-microsoft platforms. The tools are completely cross platform though. (Not sure how that works out exactly. The GUI is done with wxWidgets, but as I understand it, the viewer is largely a GUI wrapped around the engine itself. If the engine isn't porting, then I can't see how the viewer can function properly on other platforms.)
Immediately after the announcement of the new engine, there was a lot of buzz about Linux/Mac ports in the community. Sadly, the devs themselves are only talking about ports to microsoft consoles. I will stop myself now, because I feel a huge rant creeping towards my keyboard.
That's not entirely true, both Max and Charlie said that they probably would port to other platforms such as Mac and Linux, but it wouldn't be done at the same time as the Windows version.
You are right.
(<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=Search&CODE=show&searchid=2590d18d80088fc878cb297ce2d9ae59&search_in=posts&result_type=posts&highlite=%2BLinux" target="_blank">Here's</a> a few posts of interest (I'm linking to a forum search, I don't know how long the link will be good))
None of the devs seems very enthusiastic about an OpenGL engine though. And while the devs are almost equally dismissive about a console port (Not now, but perhaps after 1.0), there's a lot of thinking-about-console that makes it into the twitter feed and podcasts. This doesn't mean that they are more enthusiastic about consoles, that is just the distinct impression I get. I fear that if they ever get the resources to do some porting, they will focus on reworking gameplay to work on a console, rather than rework the engine to run on Linux.
Sounds like a cool idea, but being imgs instead of text I'd have to believe any img repository would get bogged down real fast.
A man can dream.
Also version control stuff can handle images and other files today, they just can't diff and merge them.
Revision control isn't part of the builder; for that we use Subversion.
When I was at Iron Lore I built a more complicated tool that handled revision control AND building of game assets, but it wasn't as good as an off-the shelf system like Perforce (which we used for code), and the artists were constantly fighting it and being annoyed. And of course since this was just a small part of my job, I never had enough time to make enhancements or support it as well as it needed.
The lesson I took away from that was it's better to build simple tools that can work together and with other tools. For example our art asset pipeline uses the Builder, a NVIDIA texture compression tool, Subversion, the FCollada plug-in for 3D Studio MAX, and our own model compiling tool. This saves effort by not duplicating the functionality we can get from 3rd parties, and also allows flexibility in how people work. For example, with Subversion we can use Tortise, SVN command line, a SVN client, etc. With COLLADA we can leverage other exporters and even support multiple art packages like Maya.
Enabling people to work the way they want to work is one of the guiding principles of our technology design, and so far I'm pretty happy with that direction.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Adding minigun ... -Charlie<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
..lol.
NS2==TF2.
On a serious note, you answered my question fully. I still think the builder is the most impressive. I'm young and full of passion, you see.
Can’t wait for more videos like that one, even if it’s not the final game - THAT STUFF MOVES!! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Oh, and I enjoy seeing these updates. I wish there was more technical jargon.
It looked to me like they did in fact have a specular map, and that it was a colored specular map, which is preferable to the black and white ones.
We actually do have gloss maps...gloss maps, specular maps, normal maps, alpha maps, illumination maps, road maps...you want maps, we got 'em in NS2, don't worry.
--Cory
i think you are one of those people who think gloss maps and specular maps are the same thing but actually they are different and both are needed and yes one is color and the other is grey.
the specular map is basically for the color of the reflections and the gloss map affects the blurriness & clarity of the reflections because it's a generalized representation of the roughness & smoothness of a surface.
btw all the models shown in this video do not have a seperate gloss texture file listed with the other texture files. btw i see technical problems with the existing textures on the resource tower. i can elaborate if you guys want.
keep up with the good updates.
These are the kind of tools i want when creating models for games <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />