<!--quoteo(post=1719232:date=Jul 24 2009, 07:12 PM:name=niaccurshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (niaccurshi @ Jul 24 2009, 07:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1719232"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Learn to read. Open up the front page, press CTRL+F, type "stun" and see the result turn up as "not found" or "0 of 0".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, you certainly come off as a ######. If you read the concept art page, it says the gun acts like a "stun gun, for melee" when the right mouse click button is pressed.
La ChupacabraJoin Date: 2008-02-25Member: 63729Members
I have also mixed feelings about this idea (i.e. love the fact of having a pistol merged with a melee, but not this particular example). Mostly because pistol in NS1 was my favourite pistol ever (ex aequo with .223 pistol in Fallout 2 ;).
But I can understand NS2 is evolving etc. and _objectively_ I can agree that this "lightning gun"-ish thing (calling it a taser, no matter how accurate it may sound, is not really helping to not underrate it) fits nicely into it's role.
The only real issue I would like to point out (what has been already said by moultano, if not more people) is that both tagging and shocking are being activated by the same button may end up quite unpractical.
How about making the bolts do none or minimal damage (even less than a parasite) and the electricity attack to release automatically after tagging? Something like in Painkiller, as long as you center your aim on the tagged target the electricity will run. It's obvious that after the target is tagged one would like to fry it anyway...
In such a way you have a single action assigned to both mouse buttons, less confusion.
PrefixÉirinn go BráchJoin Date: 2006-12-31Member: 59353Members, Constellation
Don't like it at all. Really.
The pistol in NS was one of the key ingredients to making the game great, honestly I completely disagree with you on this new secondary weapon basis - that it shouldn't be as useful as the primary weapon.
Then what is the point? I think it should be just as useful - but in different situations, so a skulk that is trying to parasite from a distance you can clip it with a couple of shots so it has to go back to the hive, the same kind of tactic is extremely important for sporing lerks in NS 1. I realize that the game is different so there mightn't be need for a long range pistol to handle these particular situations, but it demonstrates the need for a useful side arm.
I would be better of reloading my lmg than taking out that taser - and I absolutely HATE that in other games.. unless of course I'm killing structures then I'd be better of using the taser (0 res) than a shotgun (>0res).
It's already been suggested by others: Let every marine spawn with a welder. To prevent an early advantage, make "armor welding" a mid-game tech and perhaps "door welding" too. The welder will serve as a last-resort melee weapon and a tool (to break stuff with (increased damage against structures) etc).
Another option is to keep the knife and pistol, but only let the marines spawn with the knife. They'll have to buy or pick up the pistol if they want it. The pistol isn't as essential as the knife is anyway. Give the knife increased damage against structures.
The taser just isn't bad ass. The aliens got huge teeths and can swallow humans whole - the marines are equiped with gadgets that are used to subdue college students... However! An idea that just popped up: If a smaller alien (skulk, gorge and lerk, and babblers of course!) is killed with taser darts, they should explode in a cloud of blood and gore. That would solve the lack of bad ass.
the more i think about the more i think.....! ,that the taser should look much more aggressiv aliens have a thick skin, and the taser looks so tiny. ppl might think the contacts shot out coult never get "into" their skin. i assume aliens would also need a lot of electricity to get hurt by tasers, so the taser itself would also need to look a little more beasty.. less like a startrek weapon & more like a weapon
the more i think about the more i think.....! ,that the taser should look much more aggressiv aliens have a thick skin, and the taser looks so tiny. ppl might think the contacts shot out coult never get "into" their skin. i assume aliens would also need a lot of electricity to get hurt by tasers, so the taser itself would also need to look a little more beasty.. less like a startrek weapon & more like a weapon<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good point. I think the barrel of this new weapon is very good. It blends the elements of the pistol and the melee weapon well. The problem I think most people will agree with is the grip, and the way the weapon is held. The way the weapon is held lends itself very much to the "knife" side of the hybrid. Perhaps too much? A further bending of the handle to give it more of a pistol edge may serve to remedy the problem. However this creates the new issue of making the weapon have a melee attack without looking ridiculous (imagine trying to stab someone with a pistol). Perhaps when melee mode is activated the grip retracts to form the one shown in the concept art? That could be quite interesting if the animation is brief and visually pleasing (accompanied by the prongs coming out and electrifying). Gameplay wise it is not necessary, but it contributes to the atmosphere of the game.
THE COMMUNITY WANTS (WELL MOST OF US) PISTOL KNIFE TO STAY!!
Why make everyhing so difficult did no one played Metal Gear Solid ? Ever took a look how snake is holding his knife ?? no ?? ok i got a picture for you :
<!--quoteo(post=1719267:date=Jul 25 2009, 05:30 AM:name=Namron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Namron @ Jul 25 2009, 05:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1719267"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's already been suggested by others: Let every marine spawn with a welder. To prevent an early advantage, make "armor welding" a mid-game tech and perhaps "door welding" too. The welder will serve as a last-resort melee weapon and a tool (to break stuff with (increased damage against structures) etc).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like this. It could just be a 'torch' at the beginning or something and you have to upgrade to a welder. But I have a feeling this would be displacing the problem. I'm not sure how it solves destruction of buildings being monotonous. It does get rid of the knife though.
I don't completely dislike the taser. I think it's a step in the right direction. If marines had 2 weapons instead of 3, you could use a button like Q next to WASD to switch between them without faffing about with other buttons. It sounds dumb, but I wonder whether you could just have the taser attached to the pistol; having secondary fire do the taser business.
This idea just came to me... no idea if it'd mesh well into the game, but here goes:
A telescopic baton
(one of these things: <a href="http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_detail.html?s=MO2526" target="_blank">http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_detail.html?s=MO2526</a> )
Except <i>electrified</i>, and more futuristic looking.
Interesting. But I'm concerned that replacing knife/pistol with taser may become replacing <i>oomph</i> with <i>pew-pew</i>. I liked original Natural Selection because it doesn't have lasers. It's hard to find a sci-fi themed game which looks even a bit realistic and gritty.
<!--quoteo(post=1719293:date=Jul 25 2009, 03:57 PM:name=borsuk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (borsuk @ Jul 25 2009, 03:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1719293"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Interesting. But I'm concerned that replacing knife/pistol with taser may become replacing <i>oomph</i> with <i>pew-pew</i>. I liked original Natural Selection because it doesn't have lasers. It's hard to find a sci-fi themed game which looks even a bit realistic and gritty.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed, hope the team reads this.
<!--quoteo(post=1719290:date=Jul 25 2009, 10:43 AM:name=Nasdero)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nasdero @ Jul 25 2009, 10:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1719290"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->doas no one like my idea of just having the knife with pistol in hand (als explained 4 posts before) ????<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
###### i liked it! :P
I wonder if snake finds it harder reload that pistol or clear jams? But it is a interesting combination :)
Here devs... we don't even need a taser!!!!! (ya don't need pistol + knife or taser)
Instead just give us a weapons attachment that sticks on to any rifle, shotgun, flamethrower, grenade launcher.
So you just toggle over to its use with some key and there you go. Start zapping!!
It can look like some little plain black thing stuck to the gun with a wire sticking out the back... and take about 3 minutes to model + skin.
This fits in with other attachments that you promised at one point... like an attachable grenade launcher tube...maybe a flashlight...maybe a laser pointer (good for "spotting" invisible aliens :P)
Ummmm.... how about we drop the electrical crap and have a flamethrower attachment... i mean it forms a protective "shield" to the user (when it's shooting)... and it can kill structures... just make the fuel regenerate :P
P.s. devs... we don't need a lmg... just give us all hmgs.. (that'll accelerate NS2 delivery!!!)...
I will also add to the people complaining about "lazers" that this is the most realistic idea yet and it makes perfect sense. You can stun/slow them, do dmg, team dmg, some sort of static shield, and it's all something that fits perfectly into the NS world and isn't technology that is difficult at all to fathom for obvious reasons.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->doas no one like my idea of just having the knife with pistol in hand (als explained 4 posts before) ????<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Another example of this idea would be to do something similar to COD4 and their melee attack; simply have the knife attack be the pistols secondary fire. That way you've combined the knife / melee attack and secondary weapon into one "slot". This eliminates the need for idle animations for a knife or even a super detailed model since it will only be seen in motion.
I can understand trying to replace the traditional duo of the knife and pistol with some type of hardcore taser, but I don't think that gamers have tired of that combination just yet. In fact, I think there's a certain satisfaction for many players to engage enemies with a simple, reliable weapon like a knife.
In regards to destroying buildings, I was a person that never found it terribly boring to knife one down. There was always a certain amount of excitement knifing down a resource tower because I was vulnerable which seemed like a fair trade off given the importance of the structure. However, if you wanted to control the amount of time spent knifing each building, you could allow a marine to hold down the "Use" (E) a structure and have the marine surgically destroy the building with their knife. This allows fairly the same mechanics while being able to determine how long each building takes to destroy, and how much damage per second the marine causes without having to mess with the base damage of the knife causing imbalances. If the marine wanted to stop, they would simply let go of the use button and continue as normal with the structure taking the pre-determined amount of damage. Not the most refined idea, but I'm certain it would work.
The NS Crew must have seen one of the best modern alien films (relevant to Natural Selection) around in Starship Troopers? Remember the Seargant and his training on the Knife? It was a great clip:
It's the most basic of human weapons, it's something that is very useful for survival, it needs no ammo, it does good amounts of damage (in real life this is), and it makes perfect sense for Marines to be carrying a knife around in the game. It's also satisfying getting a knife kill.
I appreciate the need to minimalise, but to me it sounds like the game is being rushed (not saying it is, just feels this way). The pistol was maybe a bit too powerful in NS1 because of it's accuracy and rate of fire, so maybe the rate of fire could be reduced to compensate? But removing the knife and pistol and replacing with something that isn't too "natural" to us? Not for me.
If anything, I think more should be done to enable marines to take on something like the Fade or Onos with a knife. Maybe have a weak spot that the Marines could knife, a difficult area to hit as it might be small (maybe a vein on the neck that only the knife can slit?) that would do copious amounts of damage to the Onos in particular. This would add another dimension in terms of adding another very fun, but very difficult (imagine the risk associated with running at an Onos with a knife), element to the game that would be very satisfying if it's pulled off.
Please go more towards enhancing the knife rather than removing it.
I've read it a few times and I can't see any logical issues with it, it makes perfect sense to have, but for the life of me I can't shake the feeling that electro-zappers in NS would be silly.
I like that you're fixing the structure killing being slow, I like that you're trying to make an effective secondary weapon, I like that you're doing something different, but I don't like the idea of marines running around shooting lightning at aliens and particularly the idea of a taser being used to destroy buildings.
An anti-building weapon for the early game would, for my money, be some sort of little box which you stick into a structure and it does damage over time, or some sort of area effect thing which you can plant on the floor or walls and it does damage to alien structures as well as pushing back the infestation, like some sort of nanogrid booster or something, the aliens can chomp it to get rid of it while the marines have to protect it while it does its work.
But that defeats the point of combining the two weapons into one.
What about, you keep the pistol as a pistol, except make it based on the nanotechnology the marines favour. Instead of firing normal bullets it fires little balls of nanites at things, which do some damage over time when they hit. It should deplete ammo as you fire it but because the nanites can self-replicate, the ammo recharges. You can't just keep on blasting things with it, but you never run out of ammo for it completely, so it's always there for you to fall back on, you can also make it fairly powerful as a result, because you can never overstock the ammo for it, you might be able to kill one alien with competently it but it would then require a recharge. The damage over time also makes it a bit easier to use because one hit will do quite a bit of damage while not instantly incapacitating the alien, making it good for killing fleeing aliens but not neccesarily as good for stopping yourself getting munched. You can give it maybe a little window on the side which fills up with a silvery fluid as it recharges to show the nanite based ammo and when it hits things it makes a sort of splat decal as if a paintball burst there. The NS1 parasite sound would be perfect for this gun.
The secondary fire of the pistol would stab forward and dump a big load of nanites into something through a little tube on the side, which cause damage over time (marine nanotechnology is like an immune system to the alien bacteria isn't it?) which gives you your powerful melee attack and anti-structure weapon, dumping the nanites would deplete all the remaining energy in the gun because the nanites are what recharge it, it would then recharge, a full charge can do a good amount of damage to most structures, maybe 3/4 kill a res tower or something, then you can just blast it a few times with yout gun or something.
You could then go on to add some other functionality like charged primary attacks, or the ability to spray nanites by holding secondary fire to damage infestation or cause minor damage to aliens which get caught in it. Primary fire could also cause minor damage to the infestation. Spraying marine structures with secondary fire could make them resistant to damage, or injecting them with it could heal them. Injecting allies with the secondary fire could heal marines or repair their armor. There's loads you can do with the nanotechnology approach.
Quite similar in function, but without the 'graaa i am using the dark side FORCE LIGHTNING GRAAAA' feel to it.
" Me thinks we would've had a better reception for our pistol/knife solution if we described it like this... <a href="http://bit.ly/WVCH7" target="_blank">http://bit.ly/WVCH7</a> #fb "
I don't think this would be a better idea, because it looks way too much like a primary weapon instead of a smooth handy and small secondary one, like you presented it (I know you meant that ironically, but obviously some of our members here don't get it or don't want ot get it) Additionally I really don't get the people who are saying that this concept art looks not gritty or strong enough, there is just one little thing I would change, the controls ofcourse, because you could mess up easily if you want to charge or place new darts, and maybe the "melee" mode should look more like a blade formed plasma ray (having a plasma wristblade of the starcraft zealots of protoss in mind) the way it looks in the concept art it looks more or less like it won't deal any damage at all.
The TSA has a lot of theme based around electricity (even in NS1, maybe you never see it, because it sucks, but its there :) ) so I don't know why it shouldn't perfectly fit theme wise.
It shouldn't be too long ranged if you want to kill a ressource tower, because the thing (as mentioned often before) about kniving down a ressource tower is that it adds tension, because you are very vulnerable at that point (no vision and a loud slicing sound). So I think it would make the RT killing even more mononic if you can add your darts, move around the next corner and taze the hell our of that building, the only thing is that you might move back some time to attach new darts and thats not that different from holding one button and run around or jump up and down behind a RT or is it ?
I don't get it why people consider it to be a weapon to kill Onoes, it is just a electrical discharging closecombat swiss army knive ... and why shouldn't that make perfect sense ? It should maybe with its stun attack only buy you a little time before you just die, because you failed in the first place to get rid of the attacking skulk, but it should also be useful to power up buidlings and kill or lets better say damage structures early on.
Maybe the community is just disappointed that you didn't release one of your already perfectly done primary kick-ass weapons and instead asked for advice on a very interesting idea of a secondary weapon, people want to see kick ass stuff that has no need to fit in a bigger picture, maybe this would've been the better "release" but if I interpret your post correctly, Flayra, I think you just wanted some useful feedback from the community and not reveal some kick-ass already done weapon.
On my behalf I never "abused" the pistol with scripts or any other mousewheel bindings or stuff like that, because I was too lazy to copy&paste or write a script on my own and I also felt it to be a bit lame to have such a weapon, maybe that's why I always failed as a marine and favored aliens more ... so rot in hell Evil Sniper Pistol, and long live the new Swiss Electrocuting Power Knive of the TSA :)
EDIT: I doubt that most of our members(especially the ones that just troll (and I don't want to upset anyone who is against the loss of pistol and can argue or has some usefull points there) ) has really read the thread so here are some quotes:
1. "However, the fact is that players often spend a significant amount of time using their knives on high health alien structures. That is, they stare at a big stationary object and hold down their left mouse button. And wait. There must be a way to lessen the monotony of this."
Someone ranted some posts above that the developers have basically no idea what they are talking about, because they lack the ingame experience (which I find is quite amusing, because the person refers especialy to NS2, which isn't released yet ... ) but I have to agree that it is very monotary to just wait and hit the structure, but at the same time it is very exciting, because you wait for people who are going to bite you to dead in a matter of seconds, so maybe this monotony he is refering to is just about HOW you attack the building.
2. "The long-range accuracy of the pistol along with it's high damage and essentially infinite rate of fire (which was added to give it more skill, but was commonly scripted) made it sort of an uber-weapon. We knew we didn't want it to function this way in NS2 but the question was, what to do with it?" So they just want to get rid of the abuse of a instant killing weapon (I might exaggerate at this point)
3. "The primary fire ability fires transponders into ranged targets. This is our basic pistol functionality and will let you try to stop a fleeing Lerk or nail an assaulting Skulk before your screen fades to black." There you have it BASIC PISTON FUNCTIONALITY (sorry for capslock, but sometimes it must be used) so there is nothing about, its just a very close combat weapon and thats it.
4. "Besides achieving our design goals, we think there are going to be a lot of other cool things players do with this weapon. Chaining of electricity, holding the alt-fire to form a "shield" that does damage if an alien runs into it, possibly even electrifying marine structures. It also means one less weapon to concept, model, texture, rig and animate!" So adding some functionality to keep the already stated "pillar" of the game that every weapon / life form should keep its functionality and should NOT be replaced by something else.
So my conclusion is: We should really take a close look at the devs post before ranting around (again only for those people who did so :) ) because as it looks for me this is a pistol with a limited rate of fire, whose darts deal impact damage, that can be charged to do additional over time damage, but the damage over time effect is ineffective against moving enemies and ineffective at a long range, in addition you get a special melee functionality and something that is usefull to kill buildings at a closer range, with darts that have to be reapplied to make it less boring. All in all if you read closely and came to the conclusion I came up with we will KEEP OUR PISTOL it just looks different and has way more usefull abilities beside sniping some skulks that are hiding in vents.
I hope I interpreted most of the things the devs posted on this topic correctly, because that way it would be quite awesome and would fit perfectly in the intended role of a secondary multi functional weapon.
i would even more accept lightsabers in ns2 than tasers... This community has so many partly so great ideas, please just sit down in your (maybe already new) office in San Fransisco read all this and than take 1 hour and discuss about the community ideas. If attachments to the Pistol (Bajonett?), holding the knife and pistol at the same time (Solid Snake) or one of the other good ideas does match and is possible to do. You have done very good so far Dev Team!! But at least its OUR game because we buy it and play it hopefully for years! Think about this and burry the taser...
"Aye, it's a great idea, though I will miss the ability for long range accurate weapons to nail that tiny little bit of skulk I can see around a corner. Spraying down a hallway with the LMG just doesn't always do the trick even as accurate as it is. I suspect the taser will also be range limited to something fairly close."
They can always add a secondary fire option to the LMG to go into single fire mode and act exactly like the pistol did in NS1.
People make fun about a taser weapon, but I would laugh at a marine running around with a bayonett, I mean this is such a centuries old weapon, why shouldn't it be replaced by something usefull ... the "Taser" is already holding a knife and a pistol at the same time, it has nothing to do with the Tasers we have around here today, they just choose a really poor name for that thing.
<!--quoteo(post=1719333:date=Jul 25 2009, 09:11 PM:name=1mannARMEE)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (1mannARMEE @ Jul 25 2009, 09:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1719333"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The TSA has a lot of theme based around electricity (even in NS1, maybe you never see it, because it sucks, but its there :) ) so I don't know why it shouldn't perfectly fit theme wise.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know they have electrified structures and I don't mind that too much, because in NS2 you could just have sparks fly off it when something chomps it, that's fine, but the idea of marines shooting chain lightning at aliens is a bit over the top I think.
I could go as far as a gun that shoots small bolts lightning in a line like a laser, but not zapping half a dozen aliens at once with constant streams of the stuff.
I also don't really think I'd want to fight aliens off with a taser, I'd want a big huge machete if I had to have a melee weapon, or ideally a suit of armor made of chainsaws, some thing that really looks dangerous.
Structures yes, because they're big and electrically powered so I can imagine them being able to electrocute things which touch them, but not handheld tesla coils because that seems silly, and not a taser for a melee attack, it just feels too weak.
I can imagine a squad of marines camping a room, everyone with their zaps.
While one is shooting out the transponders the rest is sparking their arcs, which basicly means that once a skulk gets into range it's toast.
This thing should ignite gas attacks (umbra / spores), so a lerk can counter this weapon (unless it has a rather limited ammo count on transponders / batterycharge on secondary so people won't idle with that)
edit <i>Note: Electricity is extremely deadly with the right power, so don't underestimate it</i>
...I hope that the transponders won't stick to boneshield and similar.
Comments
Well, you certainly come off as a ######. If you read the concept art page, it says the gun acts like a "stun gun, for melee" when the right mouse click button is pressed.
But I can understand NS2 is evolving etc. and _objectively_ I can agree that this "lightning gun"-ish thing (calling it a taser, no matter how accurate it may sound, is not really helping to not underrate it) fits nicely into it's role.
The only real issue I would like to point out (what has been already said by moultano, if not more people) is that both tagging and shocking are being activated by the same button may end up quite unpractical.
How about making the bolts do none or minimal damage (even less than a parasite) and the electricity attack to release automatically after tagging? Something like in Painkiller, as long as you center your aim on the tagged target the electricity will run. It's obvious that after the target is tagged one would like to fry it anyway...
In such a way you have a single action assigned to both mouse buttons, less confusion.
The pistol in NS was one of the key ingredients to making the game great, honestly I completely disagree with you on this new secondary weapon basis - that it shouldn't be as useful as the primary weapon.
Then what is the point? I think it should be just as useful - but in different situations, so a skulk that is trying to parasite from a distance you can clip it with a couple of shots so it has to go back to the hive, the same kind of tactic is extremely important for sporing lerks in NS 1. I realize that the game is different so there mightn't be need for a long range pistol to handle these particular situations, but it demonstrates the need for a useful side arm.
I would be better of reloading my lmg than taking out that taser - and I absolutely HATE that in other games.. unless of course I'm killing structures then I'd be better of using the taser (0 res) than a shotgun (>0res).
Oh well, I'll see how it works in the alpha.
R.I.P Pistol :(
Another option is to keep the knife and pistol, but only let the marines spawn with the knife. They'll have to buy or pick up the pistol if they want it. The pistol isn't as essential as the knife is anyway. Give the knife increased damage against structures.
The taser just isn't bad ass. The aliens got huge teeths and can swallow humans whole - the marines are equiped with gadgets that are used to subdue college students... However! An idea that just popped up: If a smaller alien (skulk, gorge and lerk, and babblers of course!) is killed with taser darts, they should explode in a cloud of blood and gore. That would solve the lack of bad ass.
the more i think about the more i think.....! ,that the taser should look much more aggressiv
aliens have a thick skin, and the taser looks so tiny. ppl might think the contacts shot out coult never get "into" their skin.
i assume aliens would also need a lot of electricity to get hurt by tasers, so the taser itself would also need to look a little more beasty.. less like a startrek weapon & more like a weapon
the more i think about the more i think.....! ,that the taser should look much more aggressiv
aliens have a thick skin, and the taser looks so tiny. ppl might think the contacts shot out coult never get "into" their skin.
i assume aliens would also need a lot of electricity to get hurt by tasers, so the taser itself would also need to look a little more beasty.. less like a startrek weapon & more like a weapon<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good point.
I think the barrel of this new weapon is very good. It blends the elements of the pistol and the melee weapon well. The problem I think most people will agree with is the grip, and the way the weapon is held. The way the weapon is held lends itself very much to the "knife" side of the hybrid. Perhaps too much? A further bending of the handle to give it more of a pistol edge may serve to remedy the problem. However this creates the new issue of making the weapon have a melee attack without looking ridiculous (imagine trying to stab someone with a pistol). Perhaps when melee mode is activated the grip retracts to form the one shown in the concept art? That could be quite interesting if the animation is brief and visually pleasing (accompanied by the prongs coming out and electrifying). Gameplay wise it is not necessary, but it contributes to the atmosphere of the game.
THE DEVS WANT A COMBO !
THE COMMUNITY WANTS (WELL MOST OF US) PISTOL KNIFE TO STAY!!
Why make everyhing so difficult did no one played Metal Gear Solid ? Ever took a look how snake is holding his knife ?? no ?? ok i got a picture for you :
<img src="http://i32.tinypic.com/307xidc.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
with thisd he cam perform blade attacks and fire bullets when he got some distance again.
well how the new weapons look should the devs decide.
I SAY PROBLEM SOLVED THREAD COULD BE CLOSED! ^^ ;-)
I like this. It could just be a 'torch' at the beginning or something and you have to upgrade to a welder. But I have a feeling this would be displacing the problem. I'm not sure how it solves destruction of buildings being monotonous. It does get rid of the knife though.
I don't completely dislike the taser. I think it's a step in the right direction. If marines had 2 weapons instead of 3, you could use a button like Q next to WASD to switch between them without faffing about with other buttons. It sounds dumb, but I wonder whether you could just have the taser attached to the pistol; having secondary fire do the taser business.
A telescopic baton
(one of these things: <a href="http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_detail.html?s=MO2526" target="_blank">http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_detail.html?s=MO2526</a> )
Except <i>electrified</i>, and more futuristic looking.
[big gun pic]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can you please resize that picture? Or at least use a link instead. That picture is huge.
Also, that weapon doesn't exactly seem side-arm sized.
Agreed, hope the team reads this.
###### i liked it! :P
I wonder if snake finds it harder reload that pistol or clear jams? But it is a interesting combination :)
Instead just give us a weapons attachment that sticks on to any rifle, shotgun, flamethrower, grenade launcher.
So you just toggle over to its use with some key and there you go. Start zapping!!
It can look like some little plain black thing stuck to the gun with a wire sticking out the back... and take about 3 minutes to model + skin.
This fits in with other attachments that you promised at one point... like an attachable grenade launcher tube...maybe a flashlight...maybe a laser pointer (good for "spotting" invisible aliens :P)
Ummmm.... how about we drop the electrical crap and have a flamethrower attachment... i mean it forms a protective "shield" to the user (when it's shooting)... and it can kill structures... just make the fuel regenerate :P
P.s. devs... we don't need a lmg... just give us all hmgs.. (that'll accelerate NS2 delivery!!!)...
Another example of this idea would be to do something similar to COD4 and their melee attack; simply have the knife attack be the pistols secondary fire. That way you've combined the knife / melee attack and secondary weapon into one "slot". This eliminates the need for idle animations for a knife or even a super detailed model since it will only be seen in motion.
I can understand trying to replace the traditional duo of the knife and pistol with some type of hardcore taser, but I don't think that gamers have tired of that combination just yet. In fact, I think there's a certain satisfaction for many players to engage enemies with a simple, reliable weapon like a knife.
In regards to destroying buildings, I was a person that never found it terribly boring to knife one down. There was always a certain amount of excitement knifing down a resource tower because I was vulnerable which seemed like a fair trade off given the importance of the structure. However, if you wanted to control the amount of time spent knifing each building, you could allow a marine to hold down the "Use" (E) a structure and have the marine surgically destroy the building with their knife. This allows fairly the same mechanics while being able to determine how long each building takes to destroy, and how much damage per second the marine causes without having to mess with the base damage of the knife causing imbalances. If the marine wanted to stop, they would simply let go of the use button and continue as normal with the structure taking the pre-determined amount of damage. Not the most refined idea, but I'm certain it would work.
The NS Crew must have seen one of the best modern alien films (relevant to Natural Selection) around in Starship Troopers? Remember the Seargant and his training on the Knife? It was a great clip:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1HcOVTrLRs" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1HcOVTrLRs</a>
It's the most basic of human weapons, it's something that is very useful for survival, it needs no ammo, it does good amounts of damage (in real life this is), and it makes perfect sense for Marines to be carrying a knife around in the game. It's also satisfying getting a knife kill.
I appreciate the need to minimalise, but to me it sounds like the game is being rushed (not saying it is, just feels this way). The pistol was maybe a bit too powerful in NS1 because of it's accuracy and rate of fire, so maybe the rate of fire could be reduced to compensate? But removing the knife and pistol and replacing with something that isn't too "natural" to us? Not for me.
If anything, I think more should be done to enable marines to take on something like the Fade or Onos with a knife. Maybe have a weak spot that the Marines could knife, a difficult area to hit as it might be small (maybe a vein on the neck that only the knife can slit?) that would do copious amounts of damage to the Onos in particular. This would add another dimension in terms of adding another very fun, but very difficult (imagine the risk associated with running at an Onos with a knife), element to the game that would be very satisfying if it's pulled off.
Please go more towards enhancing the knife rather than removing it.
Imagine a group of Marines tasing a poor single Gorge to death. Hmm, It sounds kind of sick.
Knife + Pistol + Welder + BunnyHop + Heavy + JetPack + Shotgun + LMG + Flashlight + Mines = Taser + Shield lol
but i would always bring a Knife.
I like that you're fixing the structure killing being slow, I like that you're trying to make an effective secondary weapon, I like that you're doing something different, but I don't like the idea of marines running around shooting lightning at aliens and particularly the idea of a taser being used to destroy buildings.
An anti-building weapon for the early game would, for my money, be some sort of little box which you stick into a structure and it does damage over time, or some sort of area effect thing which you can plant on the floor or walls and it does damage to alien structures as well as pushing back the infestation, like some sort of nanogrid booster or something, the aliens can chomp it to get rid of it while the marines have to protect it while it does its work.
But that defeats the point of combining the two weapons into one.
What about, you keep the pistol as a pistol, except make it based on the nanotechnology the marines favour. Instead of firing normal bullets it fires little balls of nanites at things, which do some damage over time when they hit. It should deplete ammo as you fire it but because the nanites can self-replicate, the ammo recharges. You can't just keep on blasting things with it, but you never run out of ammo for it completely, so it's always there for you to fall back on, you can also make it fairly powerful as a result, because you can never overstock the ammo for it, you might be able to kill one alien with competently it but it would then require a recharge. The damage over time also makes it a bit easier to use because one hit will do quite a bit of damage while not instantly incapacitating the alien, making it good for killing fleeing aliens but not neccesarily as good for stopping yourself getting munched. You can give it maybe a little window on the side which fills up with a silvery fluid as it recharges to show the nanite based ammo and when it hits things it makes a sort of splat decal as if a paintball burst there. The NS1 parasite sound would be perfect for this gun.
The secondary fire of the pistol would stab forward and dump a big load of nanites into something through a little tube on the side, which cause damage over time (marine nanotechnology is like an immune system to the alien bacteria isn't it?) which gives you your powerful melee attack and anti-structure weapon, dumping the nanites would deplete all the remaining energy in the gun because the nanites are what recharge it, it would then recharge, a full charge can do a good amount of damage to most structures, maybe 3/4 kill a res tower or something, then you can just blast it a few times with yout gun or something.
You could then go on to add some other functionality like charged primary attacks, or the ability to spray nanites by holding secondary fire to damage infestation or cause minor damage to aliens which get caught in it. Primary fire could also cause minor damage to the infestation. Spraying marine structures with secondary fire could make them resistant to damage, or injecting them with it could heal them. Injecting allies with the secondary fire could heal marines or repair their armor. There's loads you can do with the nanotechnology approach.
Quite similar in function, but without the 'graaa i am using the dark side FORCE LIGHTNING GRAAAA' feel to it.
I don't think this would be a better idea, because it looks way too much like a primary weapon instead of a smooth handy and small secondary one, like you presented it (I know you meant that ironically, but obviously some of our members here don't get it or don't want ot get it) Additionally I really don't get the people who are saying that this concept art looks not gritty or strong enough, there is just one little thing I would change, the controls ofcourse, because you could mess up easily if you want to charge or place new darts, and maybe the "melee" mode should look more like a blade formed plasma ray (having a plasma wristblade of the starcraft zealots of protoss in mind) the way it looks in the concept art it looks more or less like it won't deal any damage at all.
The TSA has a lot of theme based around electricity (even in NS1, maybe you never see it, because it sucks, but its there :) ) so I don't know why it shouldn't perfectly fit theme wise.
It shouldn't be too long ranged if you want to kill a ressource tower, because the thing (as mentioned often before) about kniving down a ressource tower is that it adds tension, because you are very vulnerable at that point (no vision and a loud slicing sound). So I think it would make the RT killing even more mononic if you can add your darts, move around the next corner and taze the hell our of that building, the only thing is that you might move back some time to attach new darts and thats not that different from holding one button and run around or jump up and down behind a RT or is it ?
I don't get it why people consider it to be a weapon to kill Onoes, it is just a electrical discharging closecombat swiss army knive ... and why shouldn't that make perfect sense ? It should maybe with its stun attack only buy you a little time before you just die, because you failed in the first place to get rid of the attacking skulk, but it should also be useful to power up buidlings and kill or lets better say damage structures early on.
Maybe the community is just disappointed that you didn't release one of your already perfectly done primary kick-ass weapons and instead asked for advice on a very interesting idea of a secondary weapon, people want to see kick ass stuff that has no need to fit in a bigger picture, maybe this would've been the better "release" but if I interpret your post correctly, Flayra, I think you just wanted some useful feedback from the community and not reveal some kick-ass already done weapon.
On my behalf I never "abused" the pistol with scripts or any other mousewheel bindings or stuff like that, because I was too lazy to copy&paste or write a script on my own and I also felt it to be a bit lame to have such a weapon, maybe that's why I always failed as a marine and favored aliens more ... so rot in hell Evil Sniper Pistol, and long live the new Swiss Electrocuting Power Knive of the TSA :)
EDIT: I doubt that most of our members(especially the ones that just troll (and I don't want to upset anyone who is against the loss of pistol and can argue or has some usefull points there) ) has really read the thread so here are some quotes:
1. "However, the fact is that players often spend a significant amount of time using their knives on high health alien structures. That is, they stare at a big stationary object and hold down their left mouse button. And wait. There must be a way to lessen the monotony of this."
Someone ranted some posts above that the developers have basically no idea what they are talking about, because they lack the ingame experience (which I find is quite amusing, because the person refers especialy to NS2, which isn't released yet ... ) but I have to agree that it is very monotary to just wait and hit the structure, but at the same time it is very exciting, because you wait for people who are going to bite you to dead in a matter of seconds, so maybe this monotony he is refering to is just about HOW you attack the building.
2. "The long-range accuracy of the pistol along with it's high damage and essentially infinite rate of fire (which was added to give it more skill, but was commonly scripted) made it sort of an uber-weapon. We knew we didn't want it to function this way in NS2 but the question was, what to do with it?" So they just want to get rid of the abuse of a instant killing weapon (I might exaggerate at this point)
3. "The primary fire ability fires transponders into ranged targets. This is our basic pistol functionality and will let you try to stop a fleeing Lerk or nail an assaulting Skulk before your screen fades to black." There you have it BASIC PISTON FUNCTIONALITY (sorry for capslock, but sometimes it must be used) so there is nothing about, its just a very close combat weapon and thats it.
4. "Besides achieving our design goals, we think there are going to be a lot of other cool things players do with this weapon. Chaining of electricity, holding the alt-fire to form a "shield" that does damage if an alien runs into it, possibly even electrifying marine structures. It also means one less weapon to concept, model, texture, rig and animate!" So adding some functionality to keep the already stated "pillar" of the game that every weapon / life form should keep its functionality and should NOT be replaced by something else.
So my conclusion is: We should really take a close look at the devs post before ranting around (again only for those people who did so :) ) because as it looks for me this is a pistol with a limited rate of fire, whose darts deal impact damage, that can be charged to do additional over time damage, but the damage over time effect is ineffective against moving enemies and ineffective at a long range, in addition you get a special melee functionality and something that is usefull to kill buildings at a closer range, with darts that have to be reapplied to make it less boring. All in all if you read closely and came to the conclusion I came up with we will KEEP OUR PISTOL it just looks different and has way more usefull abilities beside sniping some skulks that are hiding in vents.
I hope I interpreted most of the things the devs posted on this topic correctly, because that way it would be quite awesome and would fit perfectly in the intended role of a secondary multi functional weapon.
Thanks !
i would even more accept lightsabers in ns2 than tasers... This community has so many partly so great ideas,
please just sit down in your (maybe already new) office in San Fransisco read all this and than take 1 hour and
discuss about the community ideas. If attachments to the Pistol (Bajonett?), holding the knife and pistol at the same time (Solid Snake) or
one of the other good ideas does match and is possible to do. You have done very good so far Dev Team!! But at least its OUR game
because we buy it and play it hopefully for years! Think about this and burry the taser...
Honestly
Marcel Busch (Germany)
They can always add a secondary fire option to the LMG to go into single fire mode and act exactly like the pistol did in NS1.
I know they have electrified structures and I don't mind that too much, because in NS2 you could just have sparks fly off it when something chomps it, that's fine, but the idea of marines shooting chain lightning at aliens is a bit over the top I think.
I could go as far as a gun that shoots small bolts lightning in a line like a laser, but not zapping half a dozen aliens at once with constant streams of the stuff.
I also don't really think I'd want to fight aliens off with a taser, I'd want a big huge machete if I had to have a melee weapon, or ideally a suit of armor made of chainsaws, some thing that really looks dangerous.
Structures yes, because they're big and electrically powered so I can imagine them being able to electrocute things which touch them, but not handheld tesla coils because that seems silly, and not a taser for a melee attack, it just feels too weak.
While one is shooting out the transponders the rest is sparking their arcs, which basicly means that once a skulk gets into range it's toast.
This thing should ignite gas attacks (umbra / spores), so a lerk can counter this weapon (unless it has a rather limited ammo count on transponders / batterycharge on secondary so people won't idle with that)
edit
<i>Note: Electricity is extremely deadly with the right power, so don't underestimate it</i>
...I hope that the transponders won't stick to boneshield and similar.
<a href="http://gamepolitics.com/2009/07/25/don039t-sue-me-bro-taser-drops-suit-against-second-life" target="_blank">http://gamepolitics.com/2009/07/25/don039t...nst-second-life</a>