<!--quoteo(post=1730260:date=Oct 2 2009, 02:04 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Oct 2 2009, 02:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730260"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... in theory you can do something about it because if I remember right you can actually see cloaked units very very faintly.
I played NS solely because I like the atmosphere of the game and the FPS of the marines, I hated playing aliens and I hated commanding.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No you can't. A 100% cloaked skulk is completely invisible and makes no sound when walking.
Your lack of basic knowledge of NS is breathtaking. By your own admission, you know absolutely NOTHING about the alien game and commanding. Please stop.
I unignored you because people continue to respond to your posts in my thread. I did so to ask you to stop replying in any thread I create.
This thread reminds me the never ending old discussion about using scripts and skill... lol I was always saying that using scripts (meaning pistol/knife, duck/jump scripts and such) are for not skilled players and the ones that don't ever need that are the skilled ones, like me.
I think that the problem here came from that, you can't use scripts to speed up the rate fire or you movement. Every single time I read someone talking about skill ends confessing the use of pistol/knife and duck/jump scripts... pffff skill... yeah! right! :d
Lockdown mode is a great idea that makes the game more interesting, finding new ways to play NS. That is what I want on NS2. If I got the same thing that in NS1 I will hate it, I want new ways and that is what they promised for NS2. If in the alpha this shows that is not a good thing, then be sure they will modify/remove it from the game.
All the other discussion you are bringing to this thread is pure crap and don't belongs here.
<!--quoteo(post=1730262:date=Oct 2 2009, 07:11 PM:name=Opprobrious)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Opprobrious @ Oct 2 2009, 07:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730262"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No you can't. A 100% cloaked skulk is completely invisible and makes no sound when walking.
Your lack of basic knowledge of NS is breathtaking. By your own admission, you know absolutely NOTHING about the alien game and commanding. Please stop.
I unignored you because people continue to respond to your posts in my thread. I did so to ask you to stop replying in any thread I create.
Thank you in advance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I must be remembering an old version then, I haven't played in years, I got bored of it and then when I came back to it it had stagnated, everyone was doing pre-prepared strategies and only using jetpacks, and the mode of play had become the same every time because people had played it so much that they'd worked out exactly what the best strategy was and never deviated from it, also everyone was either really good or really bad, so I either got owned or killed easily, it basicaly felt like I probably wasn't required because the same effect could be achieved by simply rolling dice.
So yes I want to lower the skill cap, because I, rather optimistically, would like NS2 to remain fun a bit longer without having to play it constantly for five years until I know everyone else by name and have memorised every possible strategy.
I realise that all games suffer from stagnation, but I find the more enjoyable games are the ones where it's possible to at least play without having two years prior experience and the reflexes of a ten year old with ADHD on speed.
If NS2 doesn't do anything about the skill cap, I expect to see it go stale very quickly, and the only people playing it will be the same ones playing NS1, because nobody else can get into it and those that do will get bored of never using half the features because they're slightly less than optimal for winning.
That's what I found when I picked NS1 up again, perhaps I was simply very unfortunate, it's probably just as much the result of it having a small playerbase as it is of the game itself, but it fits the pattern of other such games I've played, and it's a shame, because I really enjoyed NS when nobody was quite sure exactly how to play it.
Well gosh sweet heart, if you're not going to play a game or a type of game long enough to get any good at it, how can you complain about dying? It's just not like that... this isn't Hello Kitty's Island Adventure or Final Fantasy where the game clearly loves you and wants you to win every time. Every really good player out there started as a noob in multiplayer first person shooters, and they died a lot. Then they slowly approached an average k:d ratio over the period of years... and if they kept at it, they continued to get better with diminishing returns.
From the people I've known well in NS, it was popularized by CS clans who spread it by word of mouth to their friends. They were already pretty good at cs and even that wasn't their first FPS. What I'm getting at here is that skill takes time just like anything else worth having. Yes, people's reactions peak at about age 21, but it doesn't really matter. There's a reason why some of us can spot someone using an aimbot a mile away and bring them down reliably.
Though, I feel we should at least have achievements for new players: Achievements: "I Spawned!" - spawn 1 time "Ready Room Attendant" - hit F4 when the other team outnumbers you by 1 "My first FPS" - Kill one of the opposing team after going 0:10+ "Doesn't Count!" - Get killed with the dialog prompt open "I'll distract them!" - Allow 5 consecutive commander way-points to expire "You're Squad 5!" - Be designated base builder for 3 games in a row "Natural Ejection" - Be first into the Comm Chair and reduce team resources to under 10 without building an IP "No pain, no gain" - Players average kills/day is exceeded by average forum posts/day
<!--quoteo(post=1730273:date=Oct 2 2009, 07:39 PM:name=Kiopaen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kiopaen @ Oct 2 2009, 07:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730273"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well gosh sweet heart, if you're not going to play a game or a type of game long enough to get any good at it, how can you complain about dying? It's just not like that... this isn't Hello Kitty's Island Adventure or Final Fantasy where the game clearly loves you and wants you to win every time. Every really good player out there started as a noob in multiplayer first person shooters, and they died a lot. Then they slowly approached an average k:d ratio over the period of years... and if they kept at it, they continued to get better with diminishing returns.
From the people I've known well in NS, it was popularized by CS clans who spread it by word of mouth to their friends. They were already pretty good at cs and even that wasn't their first FPS. What I'm getting at here is that skill takes time just like anything else worth having. Yes, people's reactions peak at about age 21, but it doesn't really matter. There's a reason why some of us can spot someone using an aimbot a mile away and bring them down reliably.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And, equally, there are reasons why some of us don't feel any desire to develop those skills, don't consider them worth having, and don't like CS.
I can get good at a game by playing it a lot, but I'm not going to play it a lot unless I enjoy the game, therefore if the game requires a huge amount of skill I don't possess in order to be fun, I'm not going to play it, and neither are any of the other people in the world who don't play solely for competitive reasons, and I promise you there are a lot more of them than there are people who are pure engines of competition and who cannot live without a game based on pure skill only.
I'm not just saying it because I'm not good at the game, although I'd be lying if I said that had nothing to do with it, I'm saying it because it makes sense. Failing to include ways for new players to get into the game by making it possible for old players to completely dominate them in every possible way is really really stupid, it alienates a huge number of people for the sake of a few people who would buy and play the game anyway, and then proceed to complain about balance on the forum regardless. I don't want to alienate hardcore competitive players but if it comes to a choice between them and everyone else who could possibly buy the game, then that's not really a choice, is it? I'd love nothing better than to have a game everyone in the world would enjoy but I really don't think it's possible, hell I don't even think it's logically possible let alone practically. So you have to make choices, cutting the end off the competitive scale to open up the game to the rest of the players makes infinitely more sense than keeping it exactly as it is. You already have NS 1 to be competitive, or starcraft, or quake, or unreal tournament, or armed assault or whatever takes your fancy, making a clone of NS1 for NS2 doesn't make sense.
I don't want it to be devoid of competition, because where's the sense in that? It's not neccesary for a game to be fun for new players, and it makes it more appealing to the semi-casual players who like a bit of sport but aren't going to spend their lives perfecting their game. I do however want it to be broadly appealing.
<!--quoteo(post=1730266:date=Oct 2 2009, 02:21 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Oct 2 2009, 02:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730266"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Everyone was either really good or really bad, so I either got owned or killed easily, it basicaly felt like I probably wasn't required because the same effect could be achieved by simply rolling dice.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a team game. No one should be shouldering enough to feel especially needed unless there are too few players or are unusually skilled for their server.
<!--quoteo(post=1730266:date=Oct 2 2009, 02:21 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Oct 2 2009, 02:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730266"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So yes I want to lower the skill cap, because I, rather optimistically, would like NS2 to remain fun a bit longer without having to play it constantly for five years until I know everyone else by name and have memorised every possible strategy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Math is hard! We should stop teaching it at 3rd grade so that everyone will understand what everyone else is doing! This is how you're coming across, and it's pretty much just a whine about not wanting to put in effort to get results.
<!--quoteo(post=1730266:date=Oct 2 2009, 02:21 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Oct 2 2009, 02:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730266"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I realise that all games suffer from stagnation, but I find the more enjoyable games are the ones where it's possible to at least play without having two years prior experience and the reflexes of a ten year old with ADHD on speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, but if you cater to that nature then you end up with addictinggames.com rather than beautiful works of art like NS2. Have you tried playing a musical instrument or a sport? I assure you, quickness is almost always required at upper echelons of play, it's unfortunate that it's not more relaxing; but if you want to do something more stunning, it may just take more practice. As a strange side note, a lot of the motions and "twitches" as you call then are known as "spinal cord reactions," that is, most of the thinking is handled by your repetitive task handling nerves in your spine and not in your head. You can train these things, but often they don't require more thought after you initially figure them out, just more practice. An interesting example of this is juggling, it's terrible for your head to figure out in real time, but once you get it trained your mind can almost disengage from it.
<!--quoteo(post=1730266:date=Oct 2 2009, 02:21 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Oct 2 2009, 02:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730266"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If NS2 doesn't do anything about the skill cap, I expect to see it go stale very quickly, and the only people playing it will be the same ones playing NS1, because nobody else can get into it and those that do will get bored of never using half the features because they're slightly less than optimal for winning.
That's what I found when I picked NS1 up again, perhaps I was simply very unfortunate, it's probably just as much the result of it having a small playerbase as it is of the game itself, but it fits the pattern of other such games I've played, and it's a shame, because I really enjoyed NS when nobody was quite sure exactly how to play it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So basically you're pining for when everyone else was on the same level as you. This is bad because it's like the kid who got held back a year demanding that everyone else be held back too. That's not fair or nice. Though it is sad when the group finds an exploit in the map and refuses to play it any other way for fear of losing. A good option here is for constant tweaking and the releasing of new maps. I've always felt the aliens needed something equivalent to the siege turrets or at least something that can counter or misdirect them. The strategy of "build an impenetrable base there and win" loses a bit of luster as you're essentially attacking them with your automated defenses.
I don't particularly get why you want a skill cap. I can understand making the learning curve such that it's easy to get to the mid level and then very difficult to progress above that, but in an fps setting I'm fairly sure it's not possible. People start out way up there from past experiences in other games, it's not like there's always a clean slate. When killing floor came out there were people playing it just fine on hard mode from day one. When fighting against real people, there are lots of tricks that others will fall for time and time again. It doesn't matter what weapon you put in some people's hand because their tricks of the trade will still be effective.
NS1's death is hardly due to the skill ceiling. It's based on the fact that it was never very popular to begin with and the fact that it is based on a very old engine.
Games with high skill ceilings are the most popular in the world. Just take a look at CS, Starcraft, chess, go, etc.
Semi-casuals will need to accept the fact that they will never be that good.
One of the big problems I have with new games is they try and cater to too many people in too many ways. Let's look at TF2 for a second. Very amusing to play, but very boring as there's not much skill in it. There's sticky jumping but that's about it. When they took conq grenades away that was it for me. I also find everything far too slow in TF2 as well. What they did in my mind is take a very competetive game in TFC and turned it into a casual cluster bugger.
<!--quoteo(post=1730284:date=Oct 2 2009, 03:21 PM:name=dux)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dux @ Oct 2 2009, 03:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730284"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One of the big problems I have with new games is they try and cater to too many people in too many ways. Let's look at TF2<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I couldn't agree more.
I hope you aren't drawing too much inspiration from TF2. The game is awful.
It's true, you don't want to alienate the masses, so they could easily implement a tiered system of play so that only skilled players play against skilled players... The problem isn't the skill level though, it's that there's just not many people besides the hard-core players left any more. They've moved on to other games like the masses always do over time, just like you did. They're fickle and when NS2 launches I'm sure you'll find plenty of other noobs so long as it stays popular. If you go back to the original online games, there are still people playing them from time to time, and they're usually far above the typical noob's level. Currently TF2 is still fun for the masses because there's always a noob handy. The game's still popular and on the shelves. If you want to get kicked around a bit, I can recommend some incredibly vicious servers where your typical aimbot sniper/scout players will have to run for dear life.
In the end, what you're asking them to do is to try to cater to the fleeting popularity game. There's a term for this: selling out. They may wish to sell out, but then there's nothing special about them. They'll make more money at first, but their long term supporters will wander off and the fans that diligently spread their product by word of mouth will be replaced by advertisers who don't even care about it. You can see this in EA or Blizzard now days... they've sold out. They're more concerned about how much money they can make over interesting and innovative gameplay. You can see the switch for Blizzard if you follow Bill Roper's time with them.
There's something interesting that you can see with artists over the last hundred years... if they have a master piece, it's from before they've sold out.
<!--quoteo(post=1730287:date=Nov 4 1986, 04:35 PM:name=Kiopaen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kiopaen @ Nov 4 1986, 04:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730287"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's true, you don't want to alienate the masses, so they could easily implement a tiered system of play so that only skilled players play against skilled players... The problem isn't the skill level though, it's that there's just not many people besides the hard-core players left any more. They've moved on to other games like the masses always do over time, just like you did. They're fickle and when NS2 launches I'm sure you'll find plenty of other noobs so long as it stays popular. If you go back to the original online games, there are still people playing them from time to time, and they're usually far above the typical noob's level. Currently TF2 is still fun for the masses because there's always a noob handy. The game's still popular and on the shelves. If you want to get kicked around a bit, I can recommend some incredibly vicious servers where your typical aimbot sniper/scout players will have to run for dear life.
In the end, what you're asking them to do is to try to cater to the fleeting popularity game. There's a term for this: selling out. They may wish to sell out, but then there's nothing special about them. They'll make more money at first, but their long term supporters will wander off and the fans that diligently spread their product by word of mouth will be replaced by advertisers who don't even care about it. You can see this in EA or Blizzard now days... they've sold out. They're more concerned about how much money they can make over interesting and innovative gameplay. You can see the switch for Blizzard if you follow Bill Roper's time with them.
There's something interesting that you can see with artists over the last hundred years... if they have a master piece, it's from before they've sold out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:grey--><span style="color:grey"><!--/coloro-->Or often because that one masterpiece was pretty flukey and every attempt to recreate/surpass it misses out on what made it a masterpiece in the first place, or they just run out of ideas.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
You're basically asking for a turn based board game. There's a skill cap and no one's reflexes matter.
Not to sound like too much of a jerk, but are you sure you want to play an fps? I know lots of people that don't like them due to being bad at them... hell my motivation to keep playing was that I was bad at it. They're for competitive people. If you're not motivated by rage and anger to get that *f*ing guy back by killing him with your healspray/shovel/knife/toothbrush, then maybe you're not cut out for this kinda grit... We LIKE killing each other and ticking each other off. It fuels us with adrenalin and it's fun to take out your stress on a semi-psychotic killing spree. Enjoy it. Enjoy all of it. This is life, you have to take all of it in to live it, not just the parts you cherish. You're asking for a summer without rain or a romance without tears... it's a nice idea but it's just not a life worth living. You need one emotion to make the other more fulfilling. Sure it's a tad maudlin, but it's part of being a good sport while retaining your own tenacity.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One of the big problems I have with new games is they try and cater to too many people in too many ways. Let's look at TF2 for a second. Very amusing to play, but very boring as there's not much skill in it. There's sticky jumping but that's about it. When they took conq grenades away that was it for me. I also find everything far too slow in TF2 as well. What they did in my mind is take a very competetive game in TFC and turned it into a casual cluster bugger.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1730285:date=Oct 2 2009, 08:23 PM:name=)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ( @ Oct 2 2009, 08:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730285"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I couldn't agree more.
I hope you aren't drawing too much inspiration from TF2. The game is awful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's not terrible, but something quite indifferent. Reminds me of an old Pitchfork album review of Coldplay's Parachutes. The opening of it:
NS is cool partitially because you get to blink into 5 SGs as a fade, lose to a baserush as a commander. There's excitement, pressure, close calls and tought decisions whenever you play NS.
<!--quoteo(post=1730281:date=Oct 2 2009, 08:16 PM:name=Kiopaen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kiopaen @ Oct 2 2009, 08:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730281"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Math is hard! We should stop teaching it at 3rd grade so that everyone will understand what everyone else is doing! This is how you're coming across, and it's pretty much just a whine about not wanting to put in effort to get results.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a game, not reality, games are supposed to be fun, not educational.
There may be something character building about doing something horrible to get an eventual result but there is nothing fun about it, if I have the choice between something I enjoy from the start and something I enjoy only after years of effort, which do you think I'm going to pick?
All games get boring eventually, but better to have a game that does well and has a lot of players in that time than to have a game which nobody likes to begin with. Especially with a game which is supposedly so moddable, the goal should be to get as many players owning the game as possible, because then you'll have more people making stuff for it and more gamemodes which cater to more sub-groups.
<!--quoteo(post=1730294:date=Oct 2 2009, 08:58 PM:name=Kiopaen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kiopaen @ Oct 2 2009, 08:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730294"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're basically asking for a turn based board game. There's a skill cap and no one's reflexes matter.
Not to sound like too much of a jerk, but are you sure you want to play an fps? I know lots of people that don't like them due to being bad at them... hell my motivation to keep playing was that I was bad at it. They're for competitive people. If you're not motivated by rage and anger to get that *f*ing guy back by killing him with your healspray/shovel/knife/toothbrush, then maybe you're not cut out for this kinda grit... We LIKE killing each other and ticking each other off. It fuels us with adrenalin and it's fun to take out your stress on a semi-psychotic killing spree. Enjoy it. Enjoy all of it. This is life, you have to take all of it in to live it, not just the parts you cherish. You're asking for a summer without rain or a romance without tears... it's a nice idea but it's just not a life worth living. You need one emotion to make the other more fulfilling. Sure it's a tad maudlin, but it's part of being a good sport while retaining your own tenacity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Personally I've found life to be more enjoyable when you're content with it, rather than constnatly being miserable and hoping for something better.
I realise that it is neccesary in a multiplayer game to have some people taking the fall for others, and until we invent AI smart enough to render other players unneccesary I can even accept that having players piloting the enemies adds something to the experience, but there is accepting something as an unfortunate neccesity and there's making something that goes out of its way to make it as prevalent as possible.
The sucky parts of FPS, the grind to become remotely enjoyable, the constant dying, those are not selling points, they're things you want to avoid.
I like FPS games, I'm even fairly good at some of them, but even if I'm good at it I still think there should be a skill cap, I'm very good at empires mod for example but I am constantly expounding the need to make it more accessible and to remove things which allow very skilled or knowledgable players to kill all other players, even when I am one of the players skilled or knowledgable enough to do that.
NS1 might be enjoyable mainly because of the competitiveness, but that doesn't suggest to me that NS2 should try to be the same, it suggests to me that NS2 needs to find other ways of being fun as well, a game which is only fun for one reason is a game which isn't trying.
Generally I tend to think that simply being in a game should be fun, regardless of what you're doing, having the game on your screen should be consuming because the game is awesome to look at, immersive, and everything you do makes you go 'woah cool', like a good action movie, the camera should be cinematic, the atmosphere should be gripping, the story (if possible) should be engaging, and the special effects budget should be through the roof, you should want to play the game for everything about it, not just for one thing.
Oh and I hate TF2, although I find it marginally more playable than TFC.
<!--quoteo(post=1730301:date=Oct 2 2009, 11:22 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Oct 2 2009, 11:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730301"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I realise that it is neccesary in a multiplayer game to have some people taking the fall for others, and until we invent AI smart enough to render other players unneccesary I can even accept that having players piloting the enemies adds something to the experience, but there is accepting something as an unfortunate neccesity and there's making something that goes out of its way to make it as prevalent as possible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You just described a single player game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Generally I tend to think that simply being in a game should be fun, regardless of what you're doing, having the game on your screen should be consuming because the game is awesome to look at, immersive, and everything you do makes you go 'woah cool', like a good action movie, the camera should be cinematic, the atmosphere should be gripping, the story (if possible) should be engaging, and the special effects budget should be through the roof, you should want to play the game for everything about it, not just for one thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's exactly what I don't want: nice graphics but no substance.
You seem to be confusing accessibility with simplicity. Games are meant to be fun yes, but without any long-term challenges they tend to get boring very fast.
Multiplayer: I hate dying! Why can't I play against easy yet intelligent computers! Skill: I hate that other people can become good at things because it makes my life harder!
Ok, so the lesson here is that you're a bad sport. It's ok, it's the natural default. I think everyone spends some time at this stage. But you need to understand why you annoy some of us who've been doing multiplayer games for a long time. We like getting killed. The fact that we got killed means there's a challenge out there. We then try our damnedest to overcome that challenge... and accomplishing it is very satisfying. It gets better when the enemy taunts or flaunts their prowess because it makes killing them even more enjoyable.
If you want to play a first person shooter with easy AI in a fake multiplayer environment, I recommend Unreal. It has modes for this and I know some folks who routinely storm forts or capture flags in the leisure of being completely safe from harm. They win every time and seem to enjoy it. Personally, I think it's as simple and pointless as culling baby seals, but each to their own. Similarly, Serious Sam offers coop play against a computer. That's really more your style if you think about it. Killing floor is another good example if you put it on easy mode, though you'd probably dislike L4D because there are players on the opposite side.
In any case, at some point your victories in these games will become stale and you'll crave tougher opponents... you'll put it on tougher modes yet you'll get annoyed that it's essentially fighting an aim bot or they're just adding hp to the monsters... this is why we have multiplayer. It's the final contest. The ultimate prey because you're its prey too. I think that eventually you'll come back to multiplayer and honestly get into it, but you're just not good enough for it as can be shown by your attitude about it. You have no appreciation for its strengths and even seek to remove them. You're in the wrong type of game. That's all there is to it.
Maybe they'll make a mode for you, but it'll probably be from the modders or just one side set to AI if they have it at release.
How the hell does a game which looks marvellous and which I explicitly described as being 'gripping and engaging' have no substance, it must by definition have substance in order to be engaging, but graphics, sound, and story, be it simple consistency or an actual narrative, are vital to making a game immersive, and immersion magnifies everything else in the game, if you are constantly reminded that it's just a game and you aren't really there, it cheapens the entire experience.
And yes, I did describe a singleplayer game, single player games have a number of advantages over multiplayer games in that they are far more scripted, which is to say they can actually be put together by people who know what they are doing, whereas in multiplayer the action is unscripted, which usually means it's full of people hopping around and switching weapons constantly. I did say however that because the other characters are controlled by people rather than AI, this can have an advantage of making them seem more intelligent.
A good multiplayer game would make them also seem to be part of the world, they wouldn't act like players as much as characters, a good game also makes it so that this occurs naturally, players act like characters in the world because that is the best way to play the game, they don't feel forced to do it, they want to do it, and a good game also ensures that as few players as possible are treated unfairly by the world or the other characters, you wouldn't accept enemies with a huge and insurmountable advantage over you in a singleplayer game, so you shouldn't accept it in a multiplayer game.
As I also said, multiplayer games are problematic in this sense because the players are smart, so they will gladly horde guns and armor, and develop inhuman aim and reflexes, and mow down weaker players, but you can minimise this by ensuring all players have a means of attacking all other players, by capping the skill level just as you would the amount of guns a player can carry, you wouldn't let a player carry a nuke cannon with infinite ammo, so why would you let them carry their own naturally occuring aimbot?
<!--quoteo(post=1730305:date=Oct 2 2009, 10:02 PM:name=Kiopaen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kiopaen @ Oct 2 2009, 10:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730305"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So, here's you in a nutshell:
Multiplayer: I hate dying! Why can't I play against easy yet intelligent computers! Skill: I hate that other people can become good at things because it makes my life harder!
Ok, so the lesson here is that you're a bad sport. It's ok, it's the natural default. I think everyone spends some time at this stage. But you need to understand why you annoy some of us who've been doing multiplayer games for a long time. We like getting killed. The fact that we got killed means there's a challenge out there. We then try our damnedest to overcome that challenge... and accomplishing it is very satisfying. It gets better when the enemy taunts or flaunts their prowess because it makes killing them even more enjoyable.
If you want to play a first person shooter with easy AI in a fake multiplayer environment, I recommend Unreal. It has modes for this and I know some folks who routinely storm forts or capture flags in the leisure of being completely safe from harm. They win every time and seem to enjoy it. Personally, I think it's as simple and pointless as culling baby seals, but each to their own. Similarly, Serious Sam offers coop play against a computer. That's really more your style if you think about it. Killing floor is another good example if you put it on easy mode, though you'd probably dislike L4D because there are players on the opposite side.
In any case, at some point your victories in these games will become stale and you'll crave tougher opponents... you'll put it on tougher modes yet you'll get annoyed that it's essentially fighting an aim bot or they're just adding hp to the monsters... this is why we have multiplayer. It's the final contest. The ultimate prey because you're its prey too. I think that eventually you'll come back to multiplayer and honestly get into it, but you're just not good enough for it as can be shown by your attitude about it. You have no appreciation for its strengths and even seek to remove them. You're in the wrong type of game. That's all there is to it.
Maybe they'll make a mode for you, but it'll probably be from the modders or just one side set to AI if they have it at release.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not a bad sport, I'm not a sport at all, I don't derive pleasure from killing other people in games, nor do I derive pleasure from being killed. I am acutely aware that someone on the other end of my gun is annoyed because I killed them, the fun is in the experience, not the winning, winning a close game is something I dislike more than losing, because I was probably enjoying playing and unlike losing, there was probably something I could have done to avoid it.
I do play unreal and I enjoy it, but I also enjoy NS when it's not ridiculously competitive, I enjoy it more than unreal in fact because NS has a really good atmosphere, I think it's a good idea to expand on that. Left4dead has a nice idea but the lack of immersion and bland weaponry kind of ruins it. The levels aren't anything special and the atmosphere is more like a cheesy zombie film than something you can actually take seriously.
I intend to work on a better mode myself, I can map and have limited modelling ability so I should be able to make a lot of the stuff, and as I have no doubt bots will occur at some point, the AI framework will probably be there, it shouldn't be hard to make. I'd still like for there to be some degree of it in the normal game though, because as I said, a game which sells itself on modding ability needs a big playerbase.
<!--quoteo(post=1730262:date=Oct 2 2009, 02:11 PM:name=Opprobrious)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Opprobrious @ Oct 2 2009, 02:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730262"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No you can't. A 100% cloaked skulk is completely invisible and makes no sound when walking.
Your lack of basic knowledge of NS is breathtaking. By your own admission, you know absolutely NOTHING about the alien game and commanding. Please stop.
I unignored you because people continue to respond to your posts in my thread. I did so to ask you to stop replying in any thread I create.
Thank you in advance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm starting to feel like someone is portraying Chris as a very elaborate hoax to drive the 'immersiveness' and 'tactical gameplay' side of this, seemingly endless, discussion we're having on these forums to it's ridiculous end. Reductio ad absurdum. We have our very own Socrates here! I applaude your effort: very well done.
<!--quoteo(post=1730285:date=Oct 3 2009, 06:23 AM:name=Opprobrious)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Opprobrious @ Oct 3 2009, 06:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730285"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I couldn't agree more.
I hope you aren't drawing too much inspiration from TF2. The game is awful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But it's NOT awful. You are the minority when you say that. TF2 is one of the most popular multiplayer games to date, it is brilliant. Its brilliance comes from its simplicity. MANY lessons can be learned from a game like Team Fortress 2, and while NS2 isn't goint to be like TF2, you can surely draw some ideas from it as to what makes it so popular.
Oh and Chriss, when you said Left4Dead had bad immersion because it felt like it was a cheep zombie film unlike something you could take seriously, have you considered that they wanted you to feel like you were in a cheep zombie film? Because they were. Immersion isn't realism.
Spoken like a perma-gorge oblivious to what's going on around him. I admit, it's fun to run around and build little structures. But what then? Just keep making them until the server crashes or you hit a building limit? There's only one way to win and it's fighting. You might like tearing down structures, but the other team will come to defend them and there will be combat. You might like sneaking around, but where are you going? It will always end in combat because that's how you win the game if not just for the sake of ending it and getting a new map.
I like stalemates too, they're much more interesting than the typical anti-climactic rush endings. But there's only so much welding, building, and enjoying of the atmosphere that one can do. In the end, the combat needs to happen and you can enjoy the immersion as you do it. Why are the marines there? Why are the aliens there? It's all about that conflict and its as much a part of the atmosphere as everything else.
If you don't enjoy killing the other team, you should let your teammates know right off the bat. Maybe they'll let you run around and build or something, but I can't really see why the marines would take the conscientious objector along for the mission. Don't you think playing like Gandhi is ruining the atmosphere for the other players just as much as their weapon switching is for you? I can understand where you're coming from, but there's only so much ogling of the environment one can do. If you're really into that you can always start a server and set the server limit to one.
<!--quoteo(post=1730319:date=Oct 2 2009, 10:41 PM:name=TempesT487)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TempesT487 @ Oct 2 2009, 10:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730319"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But it's NOT awful. You are the minority when you say that. TF2 is one of the most popular multiplayer games to date, it is brilliant. Its brilliance comes from its simplicity. MANY lessons can be learned from a game like Team Fortress 2, and while NS2 isn't goint to be like TF2, you can surely draw some ideas from it as to what makes it so popular.
Oh and Chriss, when you said Left4Dead had bad immersion because it felt like it was a cheep zombie film unlike something you could take seriously, have you considered that they wanted you to feel like you were in a cheep zombie film? Because they were. Immersion isn't realism.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, I know they were going for that, I just don't find it much fun, it's good for a laugh but very much like cheesy zombie movies, you can't play it for long without getting bored.
It's very good at being a cheesy zombie movie game, and I admire the attention to detail put into making it like that, but that doesn't make it more fun.
<!--quoteo(post=1730317:date=Oct 2 2009, 10:29 PM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tjosan @ Oct 2 2009, 10:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730317"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm starting to feel like someone is portraying Chris as a very elaborate hoax to drive the 'immersiveness' and 'tactical gameplay' side of this, seemingly endless, discussion we're having on these forums to it's ridiculous end. Reductio ad absurdum. We have our very own Socrates here! I applaude your effort: very well done.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No I am actually this annoying.
<!--quoteo(post=1730325:date=Oct 2 2009, 10:56 PM:name=Kiopaen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kiopaen @ Oct 2 2009, 10:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730325"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Spoken like a perma-gorge oblivious to what's going on around him. I admit, it's fun to run around and build little structures. But what then? Just keep making them until the server crashes or you hit a building limit? There's only one way to win and it's fighting. You might like tearing down structures, but the other team will come to defend them and there will be combat. You might like sneaking around, but where are you going? It will always end in combat because that's how you win the game if not just for the sake of ending it and getting a new map.
I like stalemates too, they're much more interesting than the typical anti-climactic rush endings. But there's only so much welding, building, and enjoying of the atmosphere that one can do. In the end, the combat needs to happen and you can enjoy the immersion as you do it. Why are the marines there? Why are the aliens there? It's all about that conflict and its as much a part of the atmosphere as everything else.
If you don't enjoy killing the other team, you should let your teammates know right off the bat. Maybe they'll let you run around and build or something, but I can't really see why the marines would take the conscientious objector along for the mission. Don't you think playing like Gandhi is ruining the atmosphere for the other players just as much as their weapon switching is for you? I can understand where you're coming from, but there's only so much ogling of the environment one can do. If you're really into that you can always start a server and set the server limit to one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I said I didn't enjoy it, I didn't say I wouldn't do it. I don't thrill at the prospect of walking from one place to another in a game, but I do it because it's neccesary.
I enjoy games because I enjoy the feeling of playing them, not because I feel special due to having killed fifty people this round. Killing people is just what you do in an FPS, it isn't something I feel any particular way about, it's just there, like walking. Which is why I can enjoy games which don't involve killing people or competition because they can have just as much of an immersive and fun side as games which do.
NS was fun to me because I was creeping around a cool looking base with aliens and other marines, it was like being in an alien film (although i hadn't seen the alien films until after NS, ironically). Whether or not I killed lots of aliens was kinda beside the point, it was fun just being a marine in this atmospheric place. Then later on the game become more competitive and I couldn't just enjoy the game any more, becase I had to constantly do stuff right in order to even be in the game.
The combat contributes as much to the atmosphere as anything else in the game, you are after all a marine fighting aliens, that's the setting of the game (or possibly an alien fighting marines) and it needs a degree of competition to occur, otherwise people wouldn't do it, but I don't see it as the end to which the game is a means, just playing the game is the fun bit, winning or losing is secondary.
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
<!--quoteo(post=1730307:date=Oct 2 2009, 06:10 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Oct 2 2009, 06:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730307"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I intend to work on a better mode myself, I can map and have limited modelling ability so I should be able to make a lot of the stuff, and as I have no doubt bots will occur at some point, the AI framework will probably be there, it shouldn't be hard to make. I'd still like for there to be some degree of it in the normal game though, because as I said, a game which sells itself on modding ability needs a big playerbase.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You assume again that high popularity requires a low skill cap. That is patently false; as others have pointed out, some of the most popular and lasting games have very high skill caps.
I think you're drawing some mistaken conclusions from the current state of NS. In a more popular game you'll easily be able to play with a group of players all at roughly your skill level, whereas in NS today the top-heavy skill distribution and low server count make this impossible.
<!--quoteo(post=1730336:date=Oct 2 2009, 11:14 PM:name=a_civilian)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (a_civilian @ Oct 2 2009, 11:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730336"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You assume again that high popularity requires a low skill cap. That is patently false; as others have pointed out, some of the most popular and lasting games have very high skill caps.
I think you're drawing some mistaken conclusions from the current state of NS. In a more popular game you'll easily be able to play with a group of players all at roughly your skill level, whereas in NS today the top-heavy skill distribution and low server count make this impossible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know a game apart from possibly starcraft, which I've never played, only seen videos for, which is so hugely skill based as NS1 though.
In NS1 your basic encounter is a marine with low health but a highly accurate and powerful gun, which requires the utmost control and precision to use, being pitted against a small, fast, high-damage alien with a range of mobility skills which require the utmost control and precision to use.
Even unreal tournament isn't that crazy, in unreal tournament most of the guns have infinite clips, slow moving projectiles/broad spreads, or splash damage, any idiot can hit someone else with a rocket launcher or a minigun. In CS all the guns have spreads and you'll get as many kills from random headshots as you will from anything else, in NS you absolutely have to positively be right on otherwise you're dead. This does go away a bit in the later game for marines with shotguns and especially the HMG, and for the aliens the fade acid rockets and onos can be less taxing, but the real important stuff, capturing the ground early on, and the high damage fade and skulk abilities and even lerks, they still require vast amounts of skill to use.
There is no way in hell a new marine would stand any chance against a decent skulk, it's hard enough for good marines to consistently kill skulks, whereas in other games there is always the possibility the new player will get a rocket launcher, or that they'll save up a few rounds with the automatic cash income and buy an AK47.
NS needs things which let new players get into the game and which put less emphasis on skill, or at least on only one kind of skill, which is why things like this which give you considerable bonuses to ease of weapon use in exchange for a bit of forward planning are a good thing. More ways to be good at the game and/or less rewards for being good are neccesary.
I agree that more people playing will mean more public play, less chance of running into someone really good, but it won't take long for players to actually get good enough to completely own new players, and that's what I'm worried about. After it's been out for a while, I don't imagine you'll continue to get people joining, because they'll find it hard to get into the game.
So having to act like a marine trained to kill and perform missions ruined the immersion for you, got it.
After a while people will stop looking at the world in awe and start to focus on the game at hand while tacetly enjoying the environment without necessarily thinking about it. You shouldn't be surprised when people want to win in a game... There's definitively a wow factor to the look of this game, but ultimately when you peal the graphics away, there's still a game to be played. I find that a lot of modern games tend to only do one of these two things well and NS was a welcome change. Ultimately, a lot of the other players in the game are there to play an interesting first person shooter and they've been honing their skills to do just that. They're trying to be the best gosh-darn marine or skulk for their team that they can be.
Btw, from your comments it appears you preferred marines which surprises me as I found the aliens to have more immersion as it took away the last shred of familiarity.
<!--quoteo(post=1730342:date=Oct 2 2009, 11:41 PM:name=Kiopaen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kiopaen @ Oct 2 2009, 11:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730342"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So having to act like a marine trained to kill and perform missions ruined the immersion for you, got it.
After a while people will stop looking at the world in awe and start to focus on the game at hand while tacetly enjoying the environment without necessarily thinking about it. You shouldn't be surprised when people want to win in a game... There's definitively a wow factor to the look of this game, but ultimately when you peal the graphics away, there's still a game to be played. I find that a lot of modern games tend to only do one of these two things well and NS was a welcome change. Ultimately, a lot of the other players in the game are there to play an interesting first person shooter and they've been honing their skills to do just that. They're trying to be the best gosh-darn marine or skulk for their team that they can be.
Btw, from your comments it appears you preferred marines which surprises me as I found the aliens to have more immersion as it took away the last shred of familiarity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, having the constant stress of trying to stay alive made the game unenjoyable because when I'm doing that I might as well be playing pong, I can't pay attention to the visuals or the nuances of the game because I'm too busy trying to stay in the game. There's no point having a nice atmosphere or immersion or anything when all you're doing is trying to avoid dying, because actually taking a moment to enjoy the game means you'll probably die.
Yes a lot of games do have good graphics but NS2 has something new, it has the dynamic infestation and the base mechanic, it means the game isn't the same every time through, the players also help with this, and that stops the game being boring, it's like the difference between watching lots of scifi movies and watching only one, chances are they'll all be pretty similar, but the differences are enough to make it more enjoyable. This is also the reason that of all multiplayer games, empires mod is the only one I keep coming back to, depsite all its flaws and tendency to fall apart at the slightest hiccup, it's a bit different every time. This is also why I want to have randomised base layouts and thins for my cooperative mode. I don't like NS because it has a particularly good combat system because for my money it doesn't, I like it because it's just a bit different every time.
Fighting aliens is immersive, but doing nothing but fight aliens all the time under extreme pressure to perform is a chore, not a game.
I don't like aliens because I can't play them, I can't hit anything with the bites, so I have nothing to do other than build stuff as a gorge, which I rarely had the resources for and usually got yelled at for. Also I'm not an alien, so it's hard to feel like I'm one when I play the game. I'm not a marine either but I am at least human and would be using guns if I was presented with aliens trying to kill me.
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
edited October 2009
<!--quoteo(post=1730339:date=Oct 2 2009, 07:26 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Oct 2 2009, 07:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730339"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In NS1 your basic encounter is a marine with low health but a highly accurate and powerful gun, which requires the utmost control and precision to use, being pitted against a small, fast, high-damage alien with a range of mobility skills which require the utmost control and precision to use.
Even unreal tournament isn't that crazy, in unreal tournament most of the guns have infinite clips, slow moving projectiles/broad spreads, or splash damage, any idiot can hit someone else with a rocket launcher or a minigun. In CS all the guns have spreads and you'll get as many kills from random headshots as you will from anything else, in NS you absolutely have to positively be right on otherwise you're dead. This does go away a bit in the later game for marines with shotguns and especially the HMG, and for the aliens the fade acid rockets and onos can be less taxing, but the real important stuff, capturing the ground early on, and the high damage fade and skulk abilities and even lerks, they still require vast amounts of skill to use.
There is no way in hell a new marine would stand any chance against a decent skulk, it's hard enough for good marines to consistently kill skulks, whereas in other games there is always the possibility the new player will get a rocket launcher, or that they'll save up a few rounds with the automatic cash income and buy an AK47.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I actually agree with most of this post. NS is not very accessible. A new player is mostly helpless as skulk, and for some roles (fade and commander particularly), a player inexperienced in that role can easily cost a team the game. I suspect this was a significant factor limiting NS's popularity.
The point of contention is that this is not an issue of skill cap. You can make a game with a high skill cap that is also friendly to new players. Counter-Strike has a very high skill cap, and yet in that very post you laud it for its accessibility.
Comments
I played NS solely because I like the atmosphere of the game and the FPS of the marines, I hated playing aliens and I hated commanding.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No you can't. A 100% cloaked skulk is completely invisible and makes no sound when walking.
Your lack of basic knowledge of NS is breathtaking. By your own admission, you know absolutely NOTHING about the alien game and commanding. Please stop.
I unignored you because people continue to respond to your posts in my thread. I did so to ask you to stop replying in any thread I create.
Thank you in advance.
lol I was always saying that using scripts (meaning pistol/knife, duck/jump scripts and such) are for not skilled players and the ones that don't ever need that are the skilled ones, like me.
I think that the problem here came from that, you can't use scripts to speed up the rate fire or you movement. Every single time I read someone talking about skill ends confessing the use of pistol/knife and duck/jump scripts... pffff skill... yeah! right! :d
Lockdown mode is a great idea that makes the game more interesting, finding new ways to play NS. That is what I want on NS2. If I got the same thing that in NS1 I will hate it, I want new ways and that is what they promised for NS2.
If in the alpha this shows that is not a good thing, then be sure they will modify/remove it from the game.
All the other discussion you are bringing to this thread is pure crap and don't belongs here.
I'm too sleepy to check grammar, so eat that.
Your lack of basic knowledge of NS is breathtaking. By your own admission, you know absolutely NOTHING about the alien game and commanding. Please stop.
I unignored you because people continue to respond to your posts in my thread. I did so to ask you to stop replying in any thread I create.
Thank you in advance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I must be remembering an old version then, I haven't played in years, I got bored of it and then when I came back to it it had stagnated, everyone was doing pre-prepared strategies and only using jetpacks, and the mode of play had become the same every time because people had played it so much that they'd worked out exactly what the best strategy was and never deviated from it, also everyone was either really good or really bad, so I either got owned or killed easily, it basicaly felt like I probably wasn't required because the same effect could be achieved by simply rolling dice.
So yes I want to lower the skill cap, because I, rather optimistically, would like NS2 to remain fun a bit longer without having to play it constantly for five years until I know everyone else by name and have memorised every possible strategy.
I realise that all games suffer from stagnation, but I find the more enjoyable games are the ones where it's possible to at least play without having two years prior experience and the reflexes of a ten year old with ADHD on speed.
If NS2 doesn't do anything about the skill cap, I expect to see it go stale very quickly, and the only people playing it will be the same ones playing NS1, because nobody else can get into it and those that do will get bored of never using half the features because they're slightly less than optimal for winning.
That's what I found when I picked NS1 up again, perhaps I was simply very unfortunate, it's probably just as much the result of it having a small playerbase as it is of the game itself, but it fits the pattern of other such games I've played, and it's a shame, because I really enjoyed NS when nobody was quite sure exactly how to play it.
From the people I've known well in NS, it was popularized by CS clans who spread it by word of mouth to their friends. They were already pretty good at cs and even that wasn't their first FPS. What I'm getting at here is that skill takes time just like anything else worth having. Yes, people's reactions peak at about age 21, but it doesn't really matter. There's a reason why some of us can spot someone using an aimbot a mile away and bring them down reliably.
Though, I feel we should at least have achievements for new players:
Achievements:
"I Spawned!" - spawn 1 time
"Ready Room Attendant" - hit F4 when the other team outnumbers you by 1
"My first FPS" - Kill one of the opposing team after going 0:10+
"Doesn't Count!" - Get killed with the dialog prompt open
"I'll distract them!" - Allow 5 consecutive commander way-points to expire
"You're Squad 5!" - Be designated base builder for 3 games in a row
"Natural Ejection" - Be first into the Comm Chair and reduce team resources to under 10 without building an IP
"No pain, no gain" - Players average kills/day is exceeded by average forum posts/day
From the people I've known well in NS, it was popularized by CS clans who spread it by word of mouth to their friends. They were already pretty good at cs and even that wasn't their first FPS. What I'm getting at here is that skill takes time just like anything else worth having. Yes, people's reactions peak at about age 21, but it doesn't really matter. There's a reason why some of us can spot someone using an aimbot a mile away and bring them down reliably.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And, equally, there are reasons why some of us don't feel any desire to develop those skills, don't consider them worth having, and don't like CS.
I can get good at a game by playing it a lot, but I'm not going to play it a lot unless I enjoy the game, therefore if the game requires a huge amount of skill I don't possess in order to be fun, I'm not going to play it, and neither are any of the other people in the world who don't play solely for competitive reasons, and I promise you there are a lot more of them than there are people who are pure engines of competition and who cannot live without a game based on pure skill only.
I'm not just saying it because I'm not good at the game, although I'd be lying if I said that had nothing to do with it, I'm saying it because it makes sense. Failing to include ways for new players to get into the game by making it possible for old players to completely dominate them in every possible way is really really stupid, it alienates a huge number of people for the sake of a few people who would buy and play the game anyway, and then proceed to complain about balance on the forum regardless. I don't want to alienate hardcore competitive players but if it comes to a choice between them and everyone else who could possibly buy the game, then that's not really a choice, is it? I'd love nothing better than to have a game everyone in the world would enjoy but I really don't think it's possible, hell I don't even think it's logically possible let alone practically. So you have to make choices, cutting the end off the competitive scale to open up the game to the rest of the players makes infinitely more sense than keeping it exactly as it is. You already have NS 1 to be competitive, or starcraft, or quake, or unreal tournament, or armed assault or whatever takes your fancy, making a clone of NS1 for NS2 doesn't make sense.
I don't want it to be devoid of competition, because where's the sense in that? It's not neccesary for a game to be fun for new players, and it makes it more appealing to the semi-casual players who like a bit of sport but aren't going to spend their lives perfecting their game. I do however want it to be broadly appealing.
It's a team game. No one should be shouldering enough to feel especially needed unless there are too few players or are unusually skilled for their server.
<!--quoteo(post=1730266:date=Oct 2 2009, 02:21 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Oct 2 2009, 02:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730266"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So yes I want to lower the skill cap, because I, rather optimistically, would like NS2 to remain fun a bit longer without having to play it constantly for five years until I know everyone else by name and have memorised every possible strategy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Math is hard! We should stop teaching it at 3rd grade so that everyone will understand what everyone else is doing! This is how you're coming across, and it's pretty much just a whine about not wanting to put in effort to get results.
<!--quoteo(post=1730266:date=Oct 2 2009, 02:21 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Oct 2 2009, 02:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730266"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I realise that all games suffer from stagnation, but I find the more enjoyable games are the ones where it's possible to at least play without having two years prior experience and the reflexes of a ten year old with ADHD on speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, but if you cater to that nature then you end up with addictinggames.com rather than beautiful works of art like NS2. Have you tried playing a musical instrument or a sport? I assure you, quickness is almost always required at upper echelons of play, it's unfortunate that it's not more relaxing; but if you want to do something more stunning, it may just take more practice. As a strange side note, a lot of the motions and "twitches" as you call then are known as "spinal cord reactions," that is, most of the thinking is handled by your repetitive task handling nerves in your spine and not in your head. You can train these things, but often they don't require more thought after you initially figure them out, just more practice. An interesting example of this is juggling, it's terrible for your head to figure out in real time, but once you get it trained your mind can almost disengage from it.
<!--quoteo(post=1730266:date=Oct 2 2009, 02:21 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Oct 2 2009, 02:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730266"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If NS2 doesn't do anything about the skill cap, I expect to see it go stale very quickly, and the only people playing it will be the same ones playing NS1, because nobody else can get into it and those that do will get bored of never using half the features because they're slightly less than optimal for winning.
That's what I found when I picked NS1 up again, perhaps I was simply very unfortunate, it's probably just as much the result of it having a small playerbase as it is of the game itself, but it fits the pattern of other such games I've played, and it's a shame, because I really enjoyed NS when nobody was quite sure exactly how to play it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So basically you're pining for when everyone else was on the same level as you. This is bad because it's like the kid who got held back a year demanding that everyone else be held back too. That's not fair or nice. Though it is sad when the group finds an exploit in the map and refuses to play it any other way for fear of losing. A good option here is for constant tweaking and the releasing of new maps. I've always felt the aliens needed something equivalent to the siege turrets or at least something that can counter or misdirect them. The strategy of "build an impenetrable base there and win" loses a bit of luster as you're essentially attacking them with your automated defenses.
I don't particularly get why you want a skill cap. I can understand making the learning curve such that it's easy to get to the mid level and then very difficult to progress above that, but in an fps setting I'm fairly sure it's not possible. People start out way up there from past experiences in other games, it's not like there's always a clean slate. When killing floor came out there were people playing it just fine on hard mode from day one. When fighting against real people, there are lots of tricks that others will fall for time and time again. It doesn't matter what weapon you put in some people's hand because their tricks of the trade will still be effective.
Games with high skill ceilings are the most popular in the world. Just take a look at CS, Starcraft, chess, go, etc.
Semi-casuals will need to accept the fact that they will never be that good.
I couldn't agree more.
I hope you aren't drawing too much inspiration from TF2. The game is awful.
In the end, what you're asking them to do is to try to cater to the fleeting popularity game. There's a term for this: selling out. They may wish to sell out, but then there's nothing special about them. They'll make more money at first, but their long term supporters will wander off and the fans that diligently spread their product by word of mouth will be replaced by advertisers who don't even care about it. You can see this in EA or Blizzard now days... they've sold out. They're more concerned about how much money they can make over interesting and innovative gameplay. You can see the switch for Blizzard if you follow Bill Roper's time with them.
There's something interesting that you can see with artists over the last hundred years... if they have a master piece, it's from before they've sold out.
In the end, what you're asking them to do is to try to cater to the fleeting popularity game. There's a term for this: selling out. They may wish to sell out, but then there's nothing special about them. They'll make more money at first, but their long term supporters will wander off and the fans that diligently spread their product by word of mouth will be replaced by advertisers who don't even care about it. You can see this in EA or Blizzard now days... they've sold out. They're more concerned about how much money they can make over interesting and innovative gameplay. You can see the switch for Blizzard if you follow Bill Roper's time with them.
There's something interesting that you can see with artists over the last hundred years... if they have a master piece, it's from before they've sold out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:grey--><span style="color:grey"><!--/coloro-->Or often because that one masterpiece was pretty flukey and every attempt to recreate/surpass it misses out on what made it a masterpiece in the first place, or they just run out of ideas.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
~~Sickle~~
Not to sound like too much of a jerk, but are you sure you want to play an fps? I know lots of people that don't like them due to being bad at them... hell my motivation to keep playing was that I was bad at it. They're for competitive people. If you're not motivated by rage and anger to get that *f*ing guy back by killing him with your healspray/shovel/knife/toothbrush, then maybe you're not cut out for this kinda grit... We LIKE killing each other and ticking each other off. It fuels us with adrenalin and it's fun to take out your stress on a semi-psychotic killing spree. Enjoy it. Enjoy all of it. This is life, you have to take all of it in to live it, not just the parts you cherish. You're asking for a summer without rain or a romance without tears... it's a nice idea but it's just not a life worth living. You need one emotion to make the other more fulfilling. Sure it's a tad maudlin, but it's part of being a good sport while retaining your own tenacity.
<!--quoteo(post=1730285:date=Oct 2 2009, 08:23 PM:name=)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ( @ Oct 2 2009, 08:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730285"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I couldn't agree more.
I hope you aren't drawing too much inspiration from TF2. The game is awful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not terrible, but something quite indifferent. Reminds me of an old Pitchfork album review of Coldplay's Parachutes. The opening of it:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Pretty, lovely, fine, fair, comely, pleasant, agreeable, acceptable, adequate, satisfactory, nice, benign, harmless, innocuous, innocent, largely unobjectionable, safe, forgettable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS is cool partitially because you get to blink into 5 SGs as a fade, lose to a baserush as a commander. There's excitement, pressure, close calls and tought decisions whenever you play NS.
It's a game, not reality, games are supposed to be fun, not educational.
There may be something character building about doing something horrible to get an eventual result but there is nothing fun about it, if I have the choice between something I enjoy from the start and something I enjoy only after years of effort, which do you think I'm going to pick?
All games get boring eventually, but better to have a game that does well and has a lot of players in that time than to have a game which nobody likes to begin with. Especially with a game which is supposedly so moddable, the goal should be to get as many players owning the game as possible, because then you'll have more people making stuff for it and more gamemodes which cater to more sub-groups.
<!--quoteo(post=1730294:date=Oct 2 2009, 08:58 PM:name=Kiopaen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kiopaen @ Oct 2 2009, 08:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730294"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're basically asking for a turn based board game. There's a skill cap and no one's reflexes matter.
Not to sound like too much of a jerk, but are you sure you want to play an fps? I know lots of people that don't like them due to being bad at them... hell my motivation to keep playing was that I was bad at it. They're for competitive people. If you're not motivated by rage and anger to get that *f*ing guy back by killing him with your healspray/shovel/knife/toothbrush, then maybe you're not cut out for this kinda grit... We LIKE killing each other and ticking each other off. It fuels us with adrenalin and it's fun to take out your stress on a semi-psychotic killing spree. Enjoy it. Enjoy all of it. This is life, you have to take all of it in to live it, not just the parts you cherish. You're asking for a summer without rain or a romance without tears... it's a nice idea but it's just not a life worth living. You need one emotion to make the other more fulfilling. Sure it's a tad maudlin, but it's part of being a good sport while retaining your own tenacity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Personally I've found life to be more enjoyable when you're content with it, rather than constnatly being miserable and hoping for something better.
I realise that it is neccesary in a multiplayer game to have some people taking the fall for others, and until we invent AI smart enough to render other players unneccesary I can even accept that having players piloting the enemies adds something to the experience, but there is accepting something as an unfortunate neccesity and there's making something that goes out of its way to make it as prevalent as possible.
The sucky parts of FPS, the grind to become remotely enjoyable, the constant dying, those are not selling points, they're things you want to avoid.
I like FPS games, I'm even fairly good at some of them, but even if I'm good at it I still think there should be a skill cap, I'm very good at empires mod for example but I am constantly expounding the need to make it more accessible and to remove things which allow very skilled or knowledgable players to kill all other players, even when I am one of the players skilled or knowledgable enough to do that.
NS1 might be enjoyable mainly because of the competitiveness, but that doesn't suggest to me that NS2 should try to be the same, it suggests to me that NS2 needs to find other ways of being fun as well, a game which is only fun for one reason is a game which isn't trying.
Generally I tend to think that simply being in a game should be fun, regardless of what you're doing, having the game on your screen should be consuming because the game is awesome to look at, immersive, and everything you do makes you go 'woah cool', like a good action movie, the camera should be cinematic, the atmosphere should be gripping, the story (if possible) should be engaging, and the special effects budget should be through the roof, you should want to play the game for everything about it, not just for one thing.
Oh and I hate TF2, although I find it marginally more playable than TFC.
You just described a single player game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Generally I tend to think that simply being in a game should be fun, regardless of what you're doing, having the game on your screen should be consuming because the game is awesome to look at, immersive, and everything you do makes you go 'woah cool', like a good action movie, the camera should be cinematic, the atmosphere should be gripping, the story (if possible) should be engaging, and the special effects budget should be through the roof, you should want to play the game for everything about it, not just for one thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's exactly what I don't want: nice graphics but no substance.
You seem to be confusing accessibility with simplicity.
Games are meant to be fun yes, but without any long-term challenges they tend to get boring very fast.
Multiplayer: I hate dying! Why can't I play against easy yet intelligent computers!
Skill: I hate that other people can become good at things because it makes my life harder!
Ok, so the lesson here is that you're a bad sport. It's ok, it's the natural default. I think everyone spends some time at this stage. But you need to understand why you annoy some of us who've been doing multiplayer games for a long time. We like getting killed. The fact that we got killed means there's a challenge out there. We then try our damnedest to overcome that challenge... and accomplishing it is very satisfying. It gets better when the enemy taunts or flaunts their prowess because it makes killing them even more enjoyable.
If you want to play a first person shooter with easy AI in a fake multiplayer environment, I recommend Unreal. It has modes for this and I know some folks who routinely storm forts or capture flags in the leisure of being completely safe from harm. They win every time and seem to enjoy it. Personally, I think it's as simple and pointless as culling baby seals, but each to their own. Similarly, Serious Sam offers coop play against a computer. That's really more your style if you think about it. Killing floor is another good example if you put it on easy mode, though you'd probably dislike L4D because there are players on the opposite side.
In any case, at some point your victories in these games will become stale and you'll crave tougher opponents... you'll put it on tougher modes yet you'll get annoyed that it's essentially fighting an aim bot or they're just adding hp to the monsters... this is why we have multiplayer. It's the final contest. The ultimate prey because you're its prey too. I think that eventually you'll come back to multiplayer and honestly get into it, but you're just not good enough for it as can be shown by your attitude about it. You have no appreciation for its strengths and even seek to remove them. You're in the wrong type of game. That's all there is to it.
Maybe they'll make a mode for you, but it'll probably be from the modders or just one side set to AI if they have it at release.
And yes, I did describe a singleplayer game, single player games have a number of advantages over multiplayer games in that they are far more scripted, which is to say they can actually be put together by people who know what they are doing, whereas in multiplayer the action is unscripted, which usually means it's full of people hopping around and switching weapons constantly. I did say however that because the other characters are controlled by people rather than AI, this can have an advantage of making them seem more intelligent.
A good multiplayer game would make them also seem to be part of the world, they wouldn't act like players as much as characters, a good game also makes it so that this occurs naturally, players act like characters in the world because that is the best way to play the game, they don't feel forced to do it, they want to do it, and a good game also ensures that as few players as possible are treated unfairly by the world or the other characters, you wouldn't accept enemies with a huge and insurmountable advantage over you in a singleplayer game, so you shouldn't accept it in a multiplayer game.
As I also said, multiplayer games are problematic in this sense because the players are smart, so they will gladly horde guns and armor, and develop inhuman aim and reflexes, and mow down weaker players, but you can minimise this by ensuring all players have a means of attacking all other players, by capping the skill level just as you would the amount of guns a player can carry, you wouldn't let a player carry a nuke cannon with infinite ammo, so why would you let them carry their own naturally occuring aimbot?
<!--quoteo(post=1730305:date=Oct 2 2009, 10:02 PM:name=Kiopaen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kiopaen @ Oct 2 2009, 10:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730305"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So, here's you in a nutshell:
Multiplayer: I hate dying! Why can't I play against easy yet intelligent computers!
Skill: I hate that other people can become good at things because it makes my life harder!
Ok, so the lesson here is that you're a bad sport. It's ok, it's the natural default. I think everyone spends some time at this stage. But you need to understand why you annoy some of us who've been doing multiplayer games for a long time. We like getting killed. The fact that we got killed means there's a challenge out there. We then try our damnedest to overcome that challenge... and accomplishing it is very satisfying. It gets better when the enemy taunts or flaunts their prowess because it makes killing them even more enjoyable.
If you want to play a first person shooter with easy AI in a fake multiplayer environment, I recommend Unreal. It has modes for this and I know some folks who routinely storm forts or capture flags in the leisure of being completely safe from harm. They win every time and seem to enjoy it. Personally, I think it's as simple and pointless as culling baby seals, but each to their own. Similarly, Serious Sam offers coop play against a computer. That's really more your style if you think about it. Killing floor is another good example if you put it on easy mode, though you'd probably dislike L4D because there are players on the opposite side.
In any case, at some point your victories in these games will become stale and you'll crave tougher opponents... you'll put it on tougher modes yet you'll get annoyed that it's essentially fighting an aim bot or they're just adding hp to the monsters... this is why we have multiplayer. It's the final contest. The ultimate prey because you're its prey too. I think that eventually you'll come back to multiplayer and honestly get into it, but you're just not good enough for it as can be shown by your attitude about it. You have no appreciation for its strengths and even seek to remove them. You're in the wrong type of game. That's all there is to it.
Maybe they'll make a mode for you, but it'll probably be from the modders or just one side set to AI if they have it at release.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not a bad sport, I'm not a sport at all, I don't derive pleasure from killing other people in games, nor do I derive pleasure from being killed. I am acutely aware that someone on the other end of my gun is annoyed because I killed them, the fun is in the experience, not the winning, winning a close game is something I dislike more than losing, because I was probably enjoying playing and unlike losing, there was probably something I could have done to avoid it.
I do play unreal and I enjoy it, but I also enjoy NS when it's not ridiculously competitive, I enjoy it more than unreal in fact because NS has a really good atmosphere, I think it's a good idea to expand on that. Left4dead has a nice idea but the lack of immersion and bland weaponry kind of ruins it. The levels aren't anything special and the atmosphere is more like a cheesy zombie film than something you can actually take seriously.
I intend to work on a better mode myself, I can map and have limited modelling ability so I should be able to make a lot of the stuff, and as I have no doubt bots will occur at some point, the AI framework will probably be there, it shouldn't be hard to make. I'd still like for there to be some degree of it in the normal game though, because as I said, a game which sells itself on modding ability needs a big playerbase.
Your lack of basic knowledge of NS is breathtaking. By your own admission, you know absolutely NOTHING about the alien game and commanding. Please stop.
I unignored you because people continue to respond to your posts in my thread. I did so to ask you to stop replying in any thread I create.
Thank you in advance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes I agree with you.
I hope you aren't drawing too much inspiration from TF2. The game is awful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But it's NOT awful. You are the minority when you say that. TF2 is one of the most popular multiplayer games to date, it is brilliant. Its brilliance comes from its simplicity. MANY lessons can be learned from a game like Team Fortress 2, and while NS2 isn't goint to be like TF2, you can surely draw some ideas from it as to what makes it so popular.
Oh and Chriss, when you said Left4Dead had bad immersion because it felt like it was a cheep zombie film unlike something you could take seriously, have you considered that they wanted you to feel like you were in a cheep zombie film? Because they were. Immersion isn't realism.
I like stalemates too, they're much more interesting than the typical anti-climactic rush endings. But there's only so much welding, building, and enjoying of the atmosphere that one can do. In the end, the combat needs to happen and you can enjoy the immersion as you do it. Why are the marines there? Why are the aliens there? It's all about that conflict and its as much a part of the atmosphere as everything else.
If you don't enjoy killing the other team, you should let your teammates know right off the bat. Maybe they'll let you run around and build or something, but I can't really see why the marines would take the conscientious objector along for the mission. Don't you think playing like Gandhi is ruining the atmosphere for the other players just as much as their weapon switching is for you? I can understand where you're coming from, but there's only so much ogling of the environment one can do. If you're really into that you can always start a server and set the server limit to one.
Oh and Chriss, when you said Left4Dead had bad immersion because it felt like it was a cheep zombie film unlike something you could take seriously, have you considered that they wanted you to feel like you were in a cheep zombie film? Because they were. Immersion isn't realism.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, I know they were going for that, I just don't find it much fun, it's good for a laugh but very much like cheesy zombie movies, you can't play it for long without getting bored.
It's very good at being a cheesy zombie movie game, and I admire the attention to detail put into making it like that, but that doesn't make it more fun.
<!--quoteo(post=1730317:date=Oct 2 2009, 10:29 PM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tjosan @ Oct 2 2009, 10:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730317"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm starting to feel like someone is portraying Chris as a very elaborate hoax to drive the 'immersiveness' and 'tactical gameplay' side of this, seemingly endless, discussion we're having on these forums to it's ridiculous end. Reductio ad absurdum. We have our very own Socrates here! I applaude your effort: very well done.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No I am actually this annoying.
<!--quoteo(post=1730325:date=Oct 2 2009, 10:56 PM:name=Kiopaen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kiopaen @ Oct 2 2009, 10:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730325"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Spoken like a perma-gorge oblivious to what's going on around him. I admit, it's fun to run around and build little structures. But what then? Just keep making them until the server crashes or you hit a building limit? There's only one way to win and it's fighting. You might like tearing down structures, but the other team will come to defend them and there will be combat. You might like sneaking around, but where are you going? It will always end in combat because that's how you win the game if not just for the sake of ending it and getting a new map.
I like stalemates too, they're much more interesting than the typical anti-climactic rush endings. But there's only so much welding, building, and enjoying of the atmosphere that one can do. In the end, the combat needs to happen and you can enjoy the immersion as you do it. Why are the marines there? Why are the aliens there? It's all about that conflict and its as much a part of the atmosphere as everything else.
If you don't enjoy killing the other team, you should let your teammates know right off the bat. Maybe they'll let you run around and build or something, but I can't really see why the marines would take the conscientious objector along for the mission. Don't you think playing like Gandhi is ruining the atmosphere for the other players just as much as their weapon switching is for you? I can understand where you're coming from, but there's only so much ogling of the environment one can do. If you're really into that you can always start a server and set the server limit to one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I said I didn't enjoy it, I didn't say I wouldn't do it. I don't thrill at the prospect of walking from one place to another in a game, but I do it because it's neccesary.
I enjoy games because I enjoy the feeling of playing them, not because I feel special due to having killed fifty people this round. Killing people is just what you do in an FPS, it isn't something I feel any particular way about, it's just there, like walking. Which is why I can enjoy games which don't involve killing people or competition because they can have just as much of an immersive and fun side as games which do.
NS was fun to me because I was creeping around a cool looking base with aliens and other marines, it was like being in an alien film (although i hadn't seen the alien films until after NS, ironically). Whether or not I killed lots of aliens was kinda beside the point, it was fun just being a marine in this atmospheric place. Then later on the game become more competitive and I couldn't just enjoy the game any more, becase I had to constantly do stuff right in order to even be in the game.
The combat contributes as much to the atmosphere as anything else in the game, you are after all a marine fighting aliens, that's the setting of the game (or possibly an alien fighting marines) and it needs a degree of competition to occur, otherwise people wouldn't do it, but I don't see it as the end to which the game is a means, just playing the game is the fun bit, winning or losing is secondary.
You assume again that high popularity requires a low skill cap. That is patently false; as others have pointed out, some of the most popular and lasting games have very high skill caps.
I think you're drawing some mistaken conclusions from the current state of NS. In a more popular game you'll easily be able to play with a group of players all at roughly your skill level, whereas in NS today the top-heavy skill distribution and low server count make this impossible.
I think you're drawing some mistaken conclusions from the current state of NS. In a more popular game you'll easily be able to play with a group of players all at roughly your skill level, whereas in NS today the top-heavy skill distribution and low server count make this impossible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know a game apart from possibly starcraft, which I've never played, only seen videos for, which is so hugely skill based as NS1 though.
In NS1 your basic encounter is a marine with low health but a highly accurate and powerful gun, which requires the utmost control and precision to use, being pitted against a small, fast, high-damage alien with a range of mobility skills which require the utmost control and precision to use.
Even unreal tournament isn't that crazy, in unreal tournament most of the guns have infinite clips, slow moving projectiles/broad spreads, or splash damage, any idiot can hit someone else with a rocket launcher or a minigun. In CS all the guns have spreads and you'll get as many kills from random headshots as you will from anything else, in NS you absolutely have to positively be right on otherwise you're dead. This does go away a bit in the later game for marines with shotguns and especially the HMG, and for the aliens the fade acid rockets and onos can be less taxing, but the real important stuff, capturing the ground early on, and the high damage fade and skulk abilities and even lerks, they still require vast amounts of skill to use.
There is no way in hell a new marine would stand any chance against a decent skulk, it's hard enough for good marines to consistently kill skulks, whereas in other games there is always the possibility the new player will get a rocket launcher, or that they'll save up a few rounds with the automatic cash income and buy an AK47.
NS needs things which let new players get into the game and which put less emphasis on skill, or at least on only one kind of skill, which is why things like this which give you considerable bonuses to ease of weapon use in exchange for a bit of forward planning are a good thing. More ways to be good at the game and/or less rewards for being good are neccesary.
I agree that more people playing will mean more public play, less chance of running into someone really good, but it won't take long for players to actually get good enough to completely own new players, and that's what I'm worried about. After it's been out for a while, I don't imagine you'll continue to get people joining, because they'll find it hard to get into the game.
After a while people will stop looking at the world in awe and start to focus on the game at hand while tacetly enjoying the environment without necessarily thinking about it. You shouldn't be surprised when people want to win in a game... There's definitively a wow factor to the look of this game, but ultimately when you peal the graphics away, there's still a game to be played. I find that a lot of modern games tend to only do one of these two things well and NS was a welcome change. Ultimately, a lot of the other players in the game are there to play an interesting first person shooter and they've been honing their skills to do just that. They're trying to be the best gosh-darn marine or skulk for their team that they can be.
Btw, from your comments it appears you preferred marines which surprises me as I found the aliens to have more immersion as it took away the last shred of familiarity.
After a while people will stop looking at the world in awe and start to focus on the game at hand while tacetly enjoying the environment without necessarily thinking about it. You shouldn't be surprised when people want to win in a game... There's definitively a wow factor to the look of this game, but ultimately when you peal the graphics away, there's still a game to be played. I find that a lot of modern games tend to only do one of these two things well and NS was a welcome change. Ultimately, a lot of the other players in the game are there to play an interesting first person shooter and they've been honing their skills to do just that. They're trying to be the best gosh-darn marine or skulk for their team that they can be.
Btw, from your comments it appears you preferred marines which surprises me as I found the aliens to have more immersion as it took away the last shred of familiarity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, having the constant stress of trying to stay alive made the game unenjoyable because when I'm doing that I might as well be playing pong, I can't pay attention to the visuals or the nuances of the game because I'm too busy trying to stay in the game. There's no point having a nice atmosphere or immersion or anything when all you're doing is trying to avoid dying, because actually taking a moment to enjoy the game means you'll probably die.
Yes a lot of games do have good graphics but NS2 has something new, it has the dynamic infestation and the base mechanic, it means the game isn't the same every time through, the players also help with this, and that stops the game being boring, it's like the difference between watching lots of scifi movies and watching only one, chances are they'll all be pretty similar, but the differences are enough to make it more enjoyable. This is also the reason that of all multiplayer games, empires mod is the only one I keep coming back to, depsite all its flaws and tendency to fall apart at the slightest hiccup, it's a bit different every time. This is also why I want to have randomised base layouts and thins for my cooperative mode. I don't like NS because it has a particularly good combat system because for my money it doesn't, I like it because it's just a bit different every time.
Fighting aliens is immersive, but doing nothing but fight aliens all the time under extreme pressure to perform is a chore, not a game.
I don't like aliens because I can't play them, I can't hit anything with the bites, so I have nothing to do other than build stuff as a gorge, which I rarely had the resources for and usually got yelled at for. Also I'm not an alien, so it's hard to feel like I'm one when I play the game. I'm not a marine either but I am at least human and would be using guns if I was presented with aliens trying to kill me.
When I asked you to please stop, why did you continue?
Your posts are incredibly off topic.
Start your own bad thread to discuss bad ideas.
Even unreal tournament isn't that crazy, in unreal tournament most of the guns have infinite clips, slow moving projectiles/broad spreads, or splash damage, any idiot can hit someone else with a rocket launcher or a minigun. In CS all the guns have spreads and you'll get as many kills from random headshots as you will from anything else, in NS you absolutely have to positively be right on otherwise you're dead. This does go away a bit in the later game for marines with shotguns and especially the HMG, and for the aliens the fade acid rockets and onos can be less taxing, but the real important stuff, capturing the ground early on, and the high damage fade and skulk abilities and even lerks, they still require vast amounts of skill to use.
There is no way in hell a new marine would stand any chance against a decent skulk, it's hard enough for good marines to consistently kill skulks, whereas in other games there is always the possibility the new player will get a rocket launcher, or that they'll save up a few rounds with the automatic cash income and buy an AK47.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I actually agree with most of this post. NS is not very accessible. A new player is mostly helpless as skulk, and for some roles (fade and commander particularly), a player inexperienced in that role can easily cost a team the game. I suspect this was a significant factor limiting NS's popularity.
The point of contention is that this is not an issue of skill cap. You can make a game with a high skill cap that is also friendly to new players. Counter-Strike has a very high skill cap, and yet in that very post you laud it for its accessibility.