<!--quoteo(post=1735268:date=Nov 1 2009, 03:43 PM:name=MuYeah)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MuYeah @ Nov 1 2009, 03:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735268"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You know thats a photoshop and not actual resized models, yes ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hehe you're right, its hard to notice at first but if you look at the shadows of the bottom skulk you can clearly see it. Anyway, I'm sure these scaling things will be rather easy to sort out during alpha- or beta-testing. If their engine makes any sense then any model can be scaled by changing a single variable.
Judging by the size increase, the game is moving away from the massive schism that player ability creates in NS1, that is, playing makes you less of cannon fodder if you don't know what you're doing, ultimately resulting in a game friendlier to beginners, which is better for both sides. Basic rule of game design is to not build for the fringe players, so I'm rather pleased to see it being embraced.
That said, I wouldn't put it past the team to have plans in mind for a miniaturization "upgrade" or a new, small replacement for the old skulk some time in the future when getting the game out is a little less pertinent.
Besides, if you can't figure out how to stomp newbs in NS2 without it being identical to NS1, you're not trying hard enough.
<!--quoteo(post=1735386:date=Nov 1 2009, 10:47 PM:name=savage^)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (savage^ @ Nov 1 2009, 10:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735386"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If their engine makes any sense then any model can be scaled by changing a single variable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really don't think thats how it works, especially with animated characters.
Seriously everyone, they are skulks. They are supposed to be the small maneuverable scouting unit. Making them big makes them generic and redundant. They should resemble small predators, not huge guard dogs.
<!--quoteo(post=1735273:date=Nov 2 2009, 01:07 AM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Nov 2 2009, 01:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735273"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I too think Skulks are too big, now. I want them about the size of the photoshop. Skulks <i>should</i> be small and fast and not the head to head counter to a lmg marine. There are other lifeforms for that job.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Skulks are changing. They are no longer what NS1 represented them as.
This is the problem with most complaints over these kinds of changes. The Skulk has a <b>new</b> game play style. Different abilites and is a new gameplay mechanic, his size is matched to this new play style. The Skulk's size is fine if it is now going to be a stronger alien, which it is.
So think about that before carrying on about what a skulk <i>should</i> be. They know how the skulk should be, not us.
<!--quoteo(post=1735411:date=Nov 2 2009, 12:54 AM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Nov 2 2009, 12:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735411"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Seriously everyone, they are skulks. They are supposed to be the small maneuverable scouting unit. Making them big makes them generic and redundant. They should resemble small predators, not huge guard dogs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont get where people get off saying how something is "supposed" to be. At this point all we know is that NS2 takes place int he same universe, it's also an RTS/FPS hybrid, and it's still aliens vs humans. In terms of the "evolution" of the Khaara, for all we know it could be a role reversal, where the throwaway units (the skulks) could turn into tanks. We still don't know how the game plays or specifically, how the skulk plays. Maybe they need him to be as big as a German Shepard.
I think Skulks are only a little bit too big. They shouldn't be as small as you people want them to be in the doctored screen shots though. Maybe 10% smaller would be nice.
BadMouthIt ceases to be exclusive when you can have a custom member titlJoin Date: 2004-05-21Member: 28815Members
I read somewhere that the skulks are now slightly slower but have more hp to make up for it. It does go with the increase in size for them. And now they do have leap as a hive 1 ability so it does compensate.
I don't really mind what size the skulks are in relation to the marines, the only thing that seemed odd was that the corridor seemed a bit small, I can't imagine it working from a gameplay perspective if the corridors are that size.
NS1 had lots of quite wide corridors and plenty of very big rooms, that corridor is tiny.
<!--quoteo(post=1735485:date=Nov 2 2009, 07:44 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Nov 2 2009, 07:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735485"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't really mind what size the skulks are in relation to the marines, the only thing that seemed odd was that the corridor seemed a bit small, I can't imagine it working from a gameplay perspective if the corridors are that size.
NS1 had lots of quite wide corridors and plenty of very big rooms, that corridor is tiny.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well everything in that picture works a lot better from a style and atmosphere perspective. Bigger skulks are a lot more menacing than the tiny little hotdogs on legs that we had before, and the tight corridor and somewhat claustrophobic feeling you get from that marine POV works a lot better than, say, giant bright orange hallways of Eclipse...
Like I said, I like the big gun - it feels more like you're actually USING it, not spraying from your hip.
<!--quoteo(post=1735488:date=Nov 1 2009, 11:54 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 1 2009, 11:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735488"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well everything in that picture works a lot better from a style and atmosphere perspective. Bigger skulks are a lot more menacing than the tiny little hotdogs on legs that we had before, and the tight corridor and somewhat claustrophobic feeling you get from that marine POV works a lot better than, say, giant bright orange hallways of Eclipse...
Like I said, I like the big gun - it feels more like you're actually USING it, not spraying from your hip.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Size is only loosely associated with menace in real life, let alone in a video game where size only translates to a bigger target.
Also, all claustrophobic maps are commonly accepted as the worst maps in natural selection. Claustrophobic gameplay is bad gameplay. If you want to feel claustrophobic, put your computer in your closet.
good maps: veil, tanith, origin, eclipse (all have open hallways) bad maps: bast, shiva, mineshaft (all have narrow hallways)
The key to every successful map in NS is balancing the range vs melee combat WITHOUT making the players feel claustrophobic. Hell, eclipse isn't even a balanced map but people still love it because the hallways are simple and well sized. Players don't want to play against the map, they want to play against the other team.
<!--quoteo(post=1735491:date=Nov 2 2009, 03:11 AM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Nov 2 2009, 03:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735491"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Size is only loosely associated with menace in real life, let alone in a video game where size only translates to a bigger target.
Also, all claustrophobic maps are commonly accepted as the worst maps in natural selection. Claustrophobic gameplay is bad gameplay. If you want to feel claustrophobic, put your computer in your closet.
good maps: veil, tanith, origin, eclipse (all have open hallways) bad maps: bast, shiva, mineshaft (all have narrow hallways)
The key to every successful map in NS is balancing the range vs melee combat WITHOUT making the players feel claustrophobic. Hell, eclipse isn't even a balanced map but people still love it because the hallways are simple and well sized. Players don't want to play against the map, they want to play against the other team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed. Can anyone even imagine how much of the hallway an onos would occupy in <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/files/ns2/NS2_marine_hallway.jpg" target="_blank">that picture</a>? Or even just two or three more marines? The location that screenshot was taken might be somewhat at fault for giving the impression of some huge models (it could be considered a narrow hallway), but this is an issue that may need to be targeted during the alpha testing.
I don't think you can extrapolate a press-released screenshot made to show off as many things as possible and draw people in to full maps (notice how the skulk on the ceiling is running on a mesh with his legs spiking through it so people won't just think "hum that dog has sticky feet?! lol stupid game").
Especially with dux being apparently the only full time map guy they have. Not that he wouldn't follow a brief but I'm sure that his points about good map design would be listened to by the other devs.
I also remember reading a while back that the focus will be more on rooms and not on the hallways connecting them (hallways will be much shorter than some of the ones in NS1), so hopefully this will make things a bit less claustrophobic
Just stop whining, you guys don't even know anything about the game.
For all you know the MG will kick like a mule. Then having tiny skulks like you guys want will make it impossible to kill anything.
You guys seriously argue over the stupidest things "omg the skulk too small ok?"
The developers know what they are doing. Personally I think the new skulk looks much better. This time when one surprises you.. you might actually jump a bit, but in the last game it was like fighting little kittens.
<!--quoteo(post=1735489:date=Nov 2 2009, 07:56 AM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Nov 2 2009, 07:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735489"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The scale of the models is relative the ether frame?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1735541:date=Nov 2 2009, 11:14 AM:name=-Diesel-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (-Diesel- @ Nov 2 2009, 11:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735541"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just stop whining, you guys don't even know anything about the game.
The developers know what they are doing. Personally I think the new skulk looks much better. This time when one surprises you.. you might actually jump a bit, but in the last game it was like fighting little kittens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd say almost everyone who has made posts in this thread are not whining at all. Saying, "the skulk looks a little big, it seems very easy to shoot," or, "the marine machine gun view model is taking up a large portion of the screen, it might create an awkward blind spot," are both pieces of constructive criticism that are merely pointing out what is clearly shown in a screenshot.
And with your second comment, the original skulks were perfectly sized when one takes into consideration their role as a class and how little health they had. If you took an NS1 skulk and made it larger, it would quickly lose the very small edge it originally had. The skulk was intended to be a quick, nimble, but vulnerable fighter, and making it bigger just to make it scarier is actually a scary thought in itself.
You must realize that with some of the higher class aliens and perhaps a heavy / exoskeleton or two that hallway would become a deathtrap very fast. And in addition to how large the new marine structures are?
This is something that may need to be targeted during alpha testing.
<!--quoteo(post=1735541:date=Nov 2 2009, 04:14 PM:name=-Diesel-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (-Diesel- @ Nov 2 2009, 04:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735541"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally I think the new skulk looks much better. This time when one surprises you.. you might actually jump a bit, but in the last game it was like fighting little kittens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agree 100%, I was actually quite pleasantly surprised by the screenshot because I was expecting the skulk scale to be silly like NS1. But instead it's actually a creature that looks menacing to a human, versus something you'd probably just boot into a wall if it attacked you.
<!--quoteo(post=1735606:date=Nov 2 2009, 06:37 PM:name=Voyager I)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Voyager I @ Nov 2 2009, 06:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735606"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it doesn't have to be some big dog-looking thing to plausibly tear apart a human<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can justify it intellectually all you want, but I'm talking about the visceral response to an image rendered on my computer monitor.
As a still screen, bigger probably does equate to scarier.
However, in motion, I think there's a solid case for the monster that's too fast and small to track properly, but still fully capable of eviscerating you of you don't stop it. As long as they don't look like the kind of thing you could swat off the back of your neck like a spiky chihuahua, I think smaller could actually be <i>more</i> scary.
<!--quoteo(post=1735610:date=Nov 2 2009, 06:50 PM:name=Voyager I)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Voyager I @ Nov 2 2009, 06:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735610"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->However, in motion<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nobody has seen it in motion, except in NS1, where it looked IMO kind of silly. Like I said, just speaking for myself, I had a gut reaction to the new screens that made me really like the changes in scale that have been implemented.
<!--quoteo(post=1735403:date=Nov 2 2009, 01:27 AM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Nov 2 2009, 01:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735403"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really don't think thats how it works, especially with animated characters.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It shouldn't be hard at all to make an algorithm for resizing a model, if your program already has a 3d grid system you just move every point a proportional amount towards/away from the center. Straightforward math, which computers are good at. Textures are flat images, and even MSPaint can resize those (though I wouldn't advise using MSPaint for your textures...). Not so sure about the animation, but if it has key frames it could just apply the above on each and, well, that's it.
So yeah, considering the cleverness of programmers and capabilities of computers, it should be doable in a few minutes.
<!--quoteo(post=1735616:date=Nov 2 2009, 07:13 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Nov 2 2009, 07:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735616"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Straightforward math, which computers are good at. Not so sure about the animation, but if it has key frames it could just apply the above on each and, well, that's it.So yeah, considering the cleverness of programmers and capabilities of computers, it should be doable in a few minutes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its kind of hard for me to respond to this because I don't know exactly how Spark deals with animation, and I can't speak to the mathematics behind animation either. All I can say is, having worked with several 3d software packages and several 3d game engines, everything goes to hell when you rescale a skinned 3d model. It's got something to do with the relative transformation of vertex co-ordinates, but I can't get any more specific than that...I don't have a background in math...the problem is something like, when you change the scale, you are changing the position at which transformations are occurring, so for example if a bone rotates 25% to drive the location of a vertex on the model at position 2,3,6... and you change the vertex position to 6,8,10 because you have scaled the whole model, when the bone rotates 25% in its animation, the end result is different because all the numbers have changed. Does this make sense?
I personally think the skulk's new size is fine. It doesn't appear to be that much bigger, and depending on map layout, size may not even factor in. After all, once it's 1/2 a foot away from you size really ceases to be such a big issue.
<!--quoteo(post=1735638:date=Nov 2 2009, 03:55 PM:name=Path)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Path @ Nov 2 2009, 03:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735638"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I personally think the skulk's new size is fine. It doesn't appear to be that much bigger, and depending on map layout, size may not even factor in. After all, once it's 1/2 a foot away from you size really ceases to be such a big issue.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, unless you suck at aiming then the size doesn't matter.
Comments
Hehe you're right, its hard to notice at first but if you look at the shadows of the bottom skulk you can clearly see it. Anyway, I'm sure these scaling things will be rather easy to sort out during alpha- or beta-testing. If their engine makes any sense then any model can be scaled by changing a single variable.
Basic rule of game design is to not build for the fringe players, so I'm rather pleased to see it being embraced.
That said, I wouldn't put it past the team to have plans in mind for a miniaturization "upgrade" or a new, small replacement for the old skulk some time in the future when getting the game out is a little less pertinent.
Besides, if you can't figure out how to stomp newbs in NS2 without it being identical to NS1, you're not trying hard enough.
I really don't think thats how it works, especially with animated characters.
Looks MUCH better
Big skulks are alright.. but then they wouldn't be skulks, name them something else.
Skulks are changing. They are no longer what NS1 represented them as.
This is the problem with most complaints over these kinds of changes. The Skulk has a <b>new</b> game play style. Different abilites and is a new gameplay mechanic, his size is matched to this new play style.
The Skulk's size is fine if it is now going to be a stronger alien, which it is.
So think about that before carrying on about what a skulk <i>should</i> be. They know how the skulk should be, not us.
I dont get where people get off saying how something is "supposed" to be. At this point all we know is that NS2 takes place int he same universe, it's also an RTS/FPS hybrid, and it's still aliens vs humans. In terms of the "evolution" of the Khaara, for all we know it could be a role reversal, where the throwaway units (the skulks) could turn into tanks. We still don't know how the game plays or specifically, how the skulk plays. Maybe they need him to be as big as a German Shepard.
NS1 had lots of quite wide corridors and plenty of very big rooms, that corridor is tiny.
NS1 had lots of quite wide corridors and plenty of very big rooms, that corridor is tiny.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well everything in that picture works a lot better from a style and atmosphere perspective. Bigger skulks are a lot more menacing than the tiny little hotdogs on legs that we had before, and the tight corridor and somewhat claustrophobic feeling you get from that marine POV works a lot better than, say, giant bright orange hallways of Eclipse...
Like I said, I like the big gun - it feels more like you're actually USING it, not spraying from your hip.
The scale of the models is relative the ether frame?
Like I said, I like the big gun - it feels more like you're actually USING it, not spraying from your hip.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Size is only loosely associated with menace in real life, let alone in a video game where size only translates to a bigger target.
Also, all claustrophobic maps are commonly accepted as the worst maps in natural selection. Claustrophobic gameplay is bad gameplay. If you want to feel claustrophobic, put your computer in your closet.
good maps: veil, tanith, origin, eclipse (all have open hallways)
bad maps: bast, shiva, mineshaft (all have narrow hallways)
The key to every successful map in NS is balancing the range vs melee combat WITHOUT making the players feel claustrophobic. Hell, eclipse isn't even a balanced map but people still love it because the hallways are simple and well sized. Players don't want to play against the map, they want to play against the other team.
Also, all claustrophobic maps are commonly accepted as the worst maps in natural selection. Claustrophobic gameplay is bad gameplay. If you want to feel claustrophobic, put your computer in your closet.
good maps: veil, tanith, origin, eclipse (all have open hallways)
bad maps: bast, shiva, mineshaft (all have narrow hallways)
The key to every successful map in NS is balancing the range vs melee combat WITHOUT making the players feel claustrophobic. Hell, eclipse isn't even a balanced map but people still love it because the hallways are simple and well sized. Players don't want to play against the map, they want to play against the other team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed. Can anyone even imagine how much of the hallway an onos would occupy in <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/files/ns2/NS2_marine_hallway.jpg" target="_blank">that picture</a>? Or even just two or three more marines? The location that screenshot was taken might be somewhat at fault for giving the impression of some huge models (it could be considered a narrow hallway), but this is an issue that may need to be targeted during the alpha testing.
Especially with dux being apparently the only full time map guy they have. Not that he wouldn't follow a brief but I'm sure that his points about good map design would be listened to by the other devs.
The skulks size is perfect as it is.
The gun is macho and perfect as it is.
Just stop whining, you guys don't even know anything about the game.
For all you know the MG will kick like a mule. Then having tiny skulks like you guys want will make it impossible to kill anything.
You guys seriously argue over the stupidest things "omg the skulk too small ok?"
The developers know what they are doing. Personally I think the new skulk looks much better. This time when one surprises you.. you might actually jump a bit, but in the last game it was like fighting little kittens.
what?
The developers know what they are doing. Personally I think the new skulk looks much better. This time when one surprises you.. you might actually jump a bit, but in the last game it was like fighting little kittens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd say almost everyone who has made posts in this thread are not whining at all. Saying, "the skulk looks a little big, it seems very easy to shoot," or, "the marine machine gun view model is taking up a large portion of the screen, it might create an awkward blind spot," are both pieces of constructive criticism that are merely pointing out what is clearly shown in a screenshot.
And with your second comment, the original skulks were perfectly sized when one takes into consideration their role as a class and how little health they had. If you took an NS1 skulk and made it larger, it would quickly lose the very small edge it originally had. The skulk was intended to be a quick, nimble, but vulnerable fighter, and making it bigger just to make it scarier is actually a scary thought in itself.
You must realize that with some of the higher class aliens and perhaps a heavy / exoskeleton or two that hallway would become a deathtrap very fast. And in addition to how large the new marine structures are?
This is something that may need to be targeted during alpha testing.
Agree 100%, I was actually quite pleasantly surprised by the screenshot because I was expecting the skulk scale to be silly like NS1. But instead it's actually a creature that looks menacing to a human, versus something you'd probably just boot into a wall if it attacked you.
Seriously though, it doesn't have to be some big dog-looking thing to plausibly tear apart a human, especially when its body is 50% claw by weight.
You can justify it intellectually all you want, but I'm talking about the visceral response to an image rendered on my computer monitor.
However, in motion, I think there's a solid case for the monster that's too fast and small to track properly, but still fully capable of eviscerating you of you don't stop it. As long as they don't look like the kind of thing you could swat off the back of your neck like a spiky chihuahua, I think smaller could actually be <i>more</i> scary.
Nobody has seen it in motion, except in NS1, where it looked IMO kind of silly. Like I said, just speaking for myself, I had a gut reaction to the new screens that made me really like the changes in scale that have been implemented.
It shouldn't be hard at all to make an algorithm for resizing a model, if your program already has a 3d grid system you just move every point a proportional amount towards/away from the center. Straightforward math, which computers are good at. Textures are flat images, and even MSPaint can resize those (though I wouldn't advise using MSPaint for your textures...).
Not so sure about the animation, but if it has key frames it could just apply the above on each and, well, that's it.
So yeah, considering the cleverness of programmers and capabilities of computers, it should be doable in a few minutes.
Its kind of hard for me to respond to this because I don't know exactly how Spark deals with animation, and I can't speak to the mathematics behind animation either. All I can say is, having worked with several 3d software packages and several 3d game engines, everything goes to hell when you rescale a skinned 3d model. It's got something to do with the relative transformation of vertex co-ordinates, but I can't get any more specific than that...I don't have a background in math...the problem is something like, when you change the scale, you are changing the position at which transformations are occurring, so for example if a bone rotates 25% to drive the location of a vertex on the model at position 2,3,6... and you change the vertex position to 6,8,10 because you have scaled the whole model, when the bone rotates 25% in its animation, the end result is different because all the numbers have changed. Does this make sense?
Yeah, unless you suck at aiming then the size doesn't matter.
The new size looks great.