<!--quoteo(post=1736359:date=Nov 5 2009, 11:30 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 5 2009, 11:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1736359"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The words of Yahtzee echo through my ears.
"Fans are whining, complaining dip######s who will never be happy with anything you do."
Or something. NS was a fairly popular mod. The only reason it's 'fringe' is because... it's 7 years old - only the most hardcore nerds still care about it. A lot of people played it and left over the years. And, I would add, I think the MINORITY of players actually give a ###### about 'TEH SK1LLZ' to the level you do or the 'fringe NS players' do. I loved NS to death, but I never played it so I could satisfy some primal nerd being inside me that demanded I show everyone how much better I am than them. I never played it <i>because</i> of the 'skill level' in it. I played it for fun, nothing more.
And in m opinion, a lot of NS's problems stemmed indirectly from the reliance on 'TEH SK1LLZ'. All the competitive players regarded themselves as superior beings to anyone who wasn't wearing a clan tag, the attitude in general was hostile to new players, and the Veteran program itself was a great ideal until you realized competitive players don't know their ass from a hole in the ground, and it collapsed up its own ass after ruining the game and filling the forums with elitists.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Multiplayer is inherently competitive. The deeper the game, or the more skill required to play at high level, will make the game life last longer.
If you are "playing the game for fun" you should have no problems with the game being deep.
<!--quoteo(post=1736359:date=Nov 5 2009, 09:30 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 5 2009, 09:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1736359"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The words of Yahtzee echo through my ears.
"Fans are whining, complaining dip######s who will never be happy with anything you do."
Or something. NS was a fairly popular mod. The only reason it's 'fringe' is because... it's 7 years old - only the most hardcore nerds still care about it. A lot of people played it and left over the years. And, I would add, I think the MINORITY of players actually give a ###### about 'TEH SK1LLZ' to the level you do or the 'fringe NS players' do. I loved NS to death, but I never played it so I could satisfy some primal nerd being inside me that demanded I show everyone how much better I am than them. I never played it <i>because</i> of the 'skill level' in it. I played it for fun, nothing more.
And in m opinion, a lot of NS's problems stemmed indirectly from the reliance on 'TEH SK1LLZ'. All the competitive players regarded themselves as superior beings to anyone who wasn't wearing a clan tag, the attitude in general was hostile to new players, and the Veteran program itself was a great ideal until you realized competitive players don't know their ass from a hole in the ground, and it collapsed up its own ass after ruining the game and filling the forums with elitists.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't plays NS for the challenge? You play it to feel like a space marine? There is something sadly pathetic about playing any game and not caring about the competitive element. Ironically, I think most people associate "nerd" with people that play non-competitive games, like table top role playing games. Trust me, there are a lot of people that want NS to be more like baseball and and less like Hello Kitty Online. Luckily, NS is a game that can easily please both: the people that want a competitive game and the people that want to play Hello Kitty Online (you).
You just sound like a queer when you claim competition is bad, everyone should be happy, everyone should play Hello Kitty Online, and everyone should play it just to have "fun".
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->(and yes, the fact that UWE plays table top role playing games in their office scares me)<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--quoteo(post=1736473:date=Nov 6 2009, 02:34 AM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Nov 6 2009, 02:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1736473"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You just sound like a queer when you claim competition is bad, everyone should be happy, everyone should play Hello Kitty Online, and everyone should play it just to have "fun".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed (well, maybe not with the queer part), and for a game to be fun it also has to be deep, balanced, and competitive.
And Temphage, if you really want the game to be "just for fun", I'm sure someone will make a 50 level combat mod for you.
<!--quoteo(post=1736487:date=Nov 6 2009, 11:07 AM:name=MuYeah)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MuYeah @ Nov 6 2009, 11:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1736487"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do you try to win when you play at all? Then you play competitively.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, and a role playing game is any game whatsoever that you play a role besides yourself, right?
<!--quoteo(post=1736391:date=Nov 5 2009, 07:37 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Nov 5 2009, 07:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1736391"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Veteran program?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Don't remember when it started, but it was basically a brilliant idea that involved getting a handful of NS clans and using them to decide balance and game direction. The effect it had on egos goes without saying.
<!--quoteo(post=1736433:date=Nov 6 2009, 12:08 AM:name=Frogg2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frogg2 @ Nov 6 2009, 12:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1736433"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Multiplayer is inherently competitive. The deeper the game, or the more skill required to play at high level, will make the game life last longer.
If you are "playing the game for fun" you should have no problems with the game being deep.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> When did depth or lack thereof ever come in to this? My favorite MPFPS game of all time was Tribes 2 which was a billion times deeper than NS2 will ever be, hell, deeper than any other game has been. And it also had this awesome lack of skill ceilings and other happy crap like that that people like homicide constantly whine and moan about.
<!--quoteo(post=1736473:date=Nov 6 2009, 07:34 AM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Nov 6 2009, 07:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1736473"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You don't plays NS for the challenge? You play it to feel like a space marine? There is something sadly pathetic about playing any game and not caring about the competitive element. Ironically, I think most people associate "nerd" with people that play non-competitive games, like table top role playing games. Trust me, there are a lot of people that want NS to be more like baseball and and less like Hello Kitty Online. Luckily, NS is a game that can easily please both: the people that want a competitive game and the people that want to play Hello Kitty Online (you).
You just sound like a queer when you claim competition is bad, everyone should be happy, everyone should play Hello Kitty Online, and everyone should play it just to have "fun".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let's get this straight. When I played NS, I'd load it up, jump in my favorite server, talk **** and hang out with the regs, and play a few games. Of course I wanted to win, that's the god damn point of the game. But I did not play with what I describe as the 'PLAY 2 WIN' mentality towards competition and winning. I do not whatsoever give even a fragment of a **** about leagues, clans, tags, and all the ridiculous moronic drama that comes along with that. I've been there, I've done that, and I'm never going there again.
PLAY 2 WIN is what I describe as the mentality that everything overall is okay, as long as it means you can be better than someone else. This means gamma tweaking, using altered models and turning off the skulk and lerk jaws, having a billion macros and scripts set up, hell if the game allows it maybe using brighter skins, and that everything you could possibly do in the game is always okay, and anyone who disagrees is a "scrub", usually followed up with some idiotic glib response like "IM CAL-P LOL U NOOBS". When I talk about 'competitive playing', I'm not talking about just competing against other players, you idiot. I'm talking about the people who take this **** way too seriously, the ones who are taking the level of competition so high that they're almost missing the entire point of the game in the first place.
Of course, then there's the other antisocial behavior that comes along with PLAY 2 WIN, <i>especially</i> in the case of NS. It was always pretty badass seeing a clan jump on my server, all stack one team, steamroll the ever living **** out of the other until they all got tired of it and quit. Or maybe they'll just sit in the hive and spawncamp for 10 minutes with shotguns - hey, even though the rules say not to do it, the GAME lets you do it so clearly the rules are wrong. The best part was when it got to the point where we were accused of "banning skill". I'm not sure which stroke of logic that was based on, some of our admins were really, really good. But no, we didn't ban competitive clan-tag-wearing ***holes because they were a bunch of d***s. We were banning them because they were just too good for us. No, I can't make up that level of idiocy.
How about some real life analogies? When you go bowling with your friends, do you pull a gun on them and accuse them of their toe being over the line, and to mark it as a zero? I... really hope not, because when you're bowling with your friends you really just don't care THAT MUCH about winning the game. Everyone's playing to win, but at the same time, if you did take it seriously, you'd be using your own $1,200 ball and shoes, wouldn't you? Likewise, if one of your friends was a champion-league bowler and after every strike proceeded to describe exactly how ****ty you are at bowling and gloat because 'HE'S IN A LEAGUE AND YOU'RE NOT LOL', how long would it take before you stop inviting him to go bowling with you?
No. I don't play my games like that. Maybe because I'm against scripts, macros, and altering the game by whatever means to get any unfair advantage you possibly can, I should just go back to Hello Kitty Online. Clearly anyone who doesn't think that's well-adjusted behavior, as you put it: <!--quoteo(post=1736473:date=Nov 6 2009, 07:34 AM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Nov 6 2009, 07:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1736473"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->just sounds like a queer<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not that you'd know anything about being a worthless antisocial ###### on the internet or anything.
Some people are ambitious, and want to be the best they can at anything they try. Others like to do as little as possible and just hang out. The first type is always despised by the second because they actually accomplish things, while the second type have the time and energy left after not accomplishing anything to keep friends with everyone. And plant flowers. And look at rainbows.
Whenever I look at a rainbow I do it properly! With energy and purpose!
BadMouthIt ceases to be exclusive when you can have a custom member titlJoin Date: 2004-05-21Member: 28815Members
Homicide, that was uncalled for. I believe that people should enjoy a game any way they want, not what in how it was intended to be enjoyed. Although having more people enjoy the game it was meant to would be a nod to developers to good game design.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
This whole US vs THEM mentality you guys have towards each other is stupid and not necessary at all. Just don't tell other players how they "should" play the game and you'll be fine.
If you want to debate how players "should" play the game go to the <a href="http://unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=107799" target="_blank">turning off options thread</a> where you have actual interesting gameplay aspects to argue about. The tradeoff of putting a consistency check on or making an option of an "atmospheric feature" is actually a design decision where how big the skulk will be is probably 100% playtesting determined.
<!--quoteo(post=1736491:date=Nov 6 2009, 11:27 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 6 2009, 11:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1736491"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about some real life analogies? When you go bowling with your friends, do you pull a gun on them and accuse them of their toe being over the line, and to mark it as a zero?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Big Lebowski ftw
but on subject... i agree that there should be a limit to what people do to win. I always found scripts and skin replacements to be somewhat cheap. ya, you discovered something that the majority of the community hasnt picked up on yet but how does that make you "better"? Your skill hasnt increased, you just gave yourself an advantage over someone who either dosnt care enough to tinker with that stuff or just dosnt know about it.
If you are resorting to using backdoor "cheats" like scripts and skin replacements you are basically like a pro athlete taking roids for an extra edge over the competition. You are playing the same game but you have something that competition dosnt have.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1736543:date=Nov 6 2009, 01:44 PM:name=Voyager I)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Voyager I @ Nov 6 2009, 01:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1736543"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The obvious question to the anti-competitive types is "If all you care about is the experience, why bother with multiplayer?"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because bowling singleplayer is boring.
<!--quoteo(post=1736284:date=Nov 4 2009, 10:39 PM:name=Voyager I)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Voyager I @ Nov 4 2009, 10:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1736284"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Here's why people are so upset about Skulk size; even if you balance it out with extra health so that the average player takes the same number of bullets to kill a Skulk, that doesn't scale well with skill. I'll use two extreme examples to make my point clear.
Suppose the game was balanced so that the "average" player needed 25 bullets to kill a Skulk.
One version of the Skulk is so big and slow that players will <i>never</i> miss (it's just an example, bear with me). To stay within design parameters, this Skulk needs to be hit with 25 bullets to be killed.
Another version of the Skulk is so fast and small that players will barely be able to hit it. The "average" player will land 1/25 shots, so this Skulk only takes one bullet to kill.
For the "average" player, these Skulks are basically the same, and they can expect to kill two before reloading. However, when we start considering players who are better or worse than average, we can see how this doesn't scale at all. With a Skulk that gets hit by every bullet, it doesn't matter how good the person shooting it is; even a rookie will be just as effective as an aimbot. Conversely, when the Skulk takes one bullet to kill, the someone who never misses will be able to kill 50 without reloading, while someone with terrible aim might not manage to kill any.
Obviously good design comes somewhere between these two extremes, but the general concern here is that Skulks that are easier to hit but take more bullets to kill will devalue good aim, and games that don't reward skilled play tend to become shallow and uninteresting for good players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Or at least, shallow and uninteresting for players with Bawlz amplified reactions.
Personally, I'd much rather reward the player who thought through their line of attack and was able to execute a good plan competently than reward the player with little to no plan who has honed their twitch skills and reaction time to nanoseconds. And this is as entirely selfish as people who prefer the reverse.. because I'm better with the plan and patience than I am with the hopping around like a crack-bunny.
So to me these changes to the skulk seem like a good thing. Sure, make skulks weaker against those who aren't dead-eye shots by making them larger and slower, and stronger against the aimbot target-shooter by giving them more hit-points, as long as I control the situation where I'm attacking from (and leap from the get-go is a step in this direction) that's not going to be a problem. And in return, those dead-eye shots? They're going to have to learn to play *my* game.. make sure that they control the situation when they get into the room, and not simply rely on being able to pick me off with a mouse-wheel pistol after my second bite.
To me, the best moments of NS weren't those rare times where I topped the score-board for my team, they were those times when this group of random people from across the internet just seemed to gel into a solid team and we beat back for a while what seemed to be certain death, or finally cracked that strong-hold the other team had developed. Competitive? Sure. But competitive for team-play and tactics.. not for how many kills I managed to pull before dying. Hell, I rarely had a positive K:D ratio, because I'd often play bait or distraction.
I think what I'm getting at here is that a reduction in twitch skill isn't necessarily a reduction in the skill required to play the game.. it's a transition to a different skill-set.
The best games reward both strategic skills <i>and</i> mechanical skills. If anything, strategy can be even <i>more</i> important in games that reward aim heavily; mistakes can be capitalized on much more effectively and every opportunity has the potential for meaningful results.
Even in games like TF2, which emphasizes teamwork and strategy and intentionally limits the abilities of skilled players, the primary determining factor in any match is deathmatching. Only if there is a rough parity of fragging power does strategy begin to matter. The only difference from a game like Counter-Strike is that in TF2 the impact of an individual is limited, so it's more important to have better deathmatchers on average than to have one exceptional player.
<!--quoteo(post=1736563:date=Nov 6 2009, 04:35 PM:name=Kwil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kwil @ Nov 6 2009, 04:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1736563"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally, I'd much rather reward the player who thought through their line of attack and was able to execute a good plan competently than reward the player with little to no plan who has honed their twitch skills and reaction time to nanoseconds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ever watch a pro quake/UT player? They know exactly which weapons to use and when to use them and they make these decisions in fractions of a second. This is the kind of "think out their attack" gibberish you are talking about. Most players always 'think out their attack' as it's one of the most basic and fundamental aspects to gameplay. The difference between us and pro quake/UT players is that they also have <i>incredible</i> twitch skill.
I've yet to meet a gamer with high twitch skill who doesn't exceed at virtually all other aspects of the game. That's because twitch is a skill that takes a lot of time and practice to acquire where as planning out an attack takes a few seconds and a basic understanding of the game. We shouldn't be rewarding the skill that takes a few seconds to learn (planning), but rather the skill that allows players to grow and come become better throughout fast paced FPS games (twitch).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->a reduction in twitch skill isn't necessarily a reduction in the skill required to play the game.. it's a transition to a different skill-set.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That different skill set is shallow and boring. See TF2.
Oddly enough, I'm actually for the increased skulk size. I think that with leap at level one skulks will be flying around everywhere and there will still be plently of twitch. I just wanted to post because I'm tired of seeing people bash twitch skill. It's the most in-depth and difficult skill to master and I don't know why someone would want to remove that depth.
Don't know but I can say for sure (atleast european) competitive players get annoying pretty fast. On pub servers they always complain about ping/lag/loss/warping/reg but they still want to own some "nubs", when a round seems to be lost, they leave and thats it.
Well... not everyone is like that but a lot of them.
<!--quoteo(post=1736583:date=Nov 6 2009, 06:20 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Nov 6 2009, 06:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1736583"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ever watch a pro quake/UT player? They know exactly which weapons to use and when to use them and they make these decisions in fractions of a second. This is the kind of "think out their attack" gibberish you are talking about. Most players always 'think out their attack' as it's one of the most basic and fundamental aspects to gameplay. The difference between us and pro quake/UT players is that they also have <i>incredible</i> twitch skill.
I've yet to meet a gamer with high twitch skill who doesn't exceed at virtually all other aspects of the game. That's because twitch is a skill that takes a lot of time and practice to acquire where as planning out an attack takes a few seconds and a basic understanding of the game. We shouldn't be rewarding the skill that takes a few seconds to learn (planning), but rather the skill that allows players to grow and come become better throughout fast paced FPS games (twitch).
That different skill set is shallow and boring. See TF2.
Oddly enough, I'm actually for the increased skulk size. I think that with leap at level one skulks will be flying around everywhere and there will still be plently of twitch. I just wanted to post because I'm tired of seeing people bash twitch skill. It's the most in-depth and difficult skill to master and I don't know why someone would want to remove that depth.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And here we come to the crux of the matter.. shallow and boring for you, who happens to revere twitch skill, as far as I can see.
Sorry, but if you think choosing a certain weapon for a given situation is "planning out your attack" you have absolutely no clue what a plan is. That's a reaction or, at best, a tactic. And one that, like twitch skill, is best done when it's relegated to muscle memory, which is what you're advocating for: You see situation A, you do action B without even having to think about it. I'm advocating where you have to think ahead of time to make sure you get into or avoid situation A or B before it ever occurs.
They're different skills. That you think one is boring is entirely your right. It's also your personal opinion, and one that I happen to disagree with. It's part and parcel of the RTS side of NS2, one that I'm hoping we'll see considerably strengthened.
Sure, planning doesn't take any practice. After all, it's just thinking. But then again, reacting to someone attacking doesn't take any practice either.
What takes practice is doing it well. And I'm hoping that NS2 will be a game where doing the thinking part well is as important as doing the killing part well.
Something to take into account is they maybe not be using hit boxes but the actual alien geometry... Which will make the aliens pretty hard to hit so scaling them up a bit probably balances that out.
<!--quoteo(post=1736491:date=Nov 6 2009, 11:27 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 6 2009, 11:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1736491"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't remember when it started, but it was basically a brilliant idea that involved getting a handful of NS clans and using them to decide balance and game direction. The effect it had on egos goes without saying.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That sounds like a terrible idea, if you balance it based on a tiny portion of the games played you are going to get bad balance, you balance it based on how everyone plays. The larger your sample size the better your understanding of the game will be and the better your balance changes will be able to reflect the changes which need to be made.
<!--quoteo(post=1736619:date=Nov 7 2009, 02:36 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Nov 7 2009, 02:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1736619"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That sounds like a terrible idea, if you balance it based on a tiny portion of the games played you are going to get bad balance, you balance it based on how everyone plays. The larger your sample size the better your understanding of the game will be and the better your balance changes will be able to reflect the changes which need to be made.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Are you sure? Blizzard has been using this method for awhile. Look at TF2 valve has balanced it for pubs and there are only 4 classes that really get used in competitive play.
Durr I think the game should be playable by everyone.
Starcraft is accesible but deep. Two new players playing works well, two intermediate works well, two pro works well. But, there is no luck that is going to allow the noob to beat the pro.
Blizzard has SC pro's paid to beta test, but they aren't who make the game. They take their input to make sure it's playable at a playable level, but the developers are mostly not very good and know how to take that suggestion to make it work well for themselves. A game can be very good competitively but also accesible.
NS really had a lot of things that weren't intuitive. It can play just as well, if not better, by being much more understandable.
Size modification could be an interesting Kharaa mutation. Say, one of options in Movement chamber would be "size reduction". It would reduce your model size and hitbox by about 15%. Less bullets hit, easier to hide, ability to enter otherwise inaccessible areas.
<!--quoteo(post=1736597:date=Nov 6 2009, 09:19 PM:name=Kwil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kwil @ Nov 6 2009, 09:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1736597"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry, but if you think choosing a certain weapon for a given situation is "planning out your attack" you have absolutely no clue what a plan is. That's a reaction or, at best, a tactic. And one that, like twitch skill, is best done when it's relegated to muscle memory, which is what you're advocating for: You see situation A, you do action B without even having to think about it. I'm advocating where you have to think ahead of time to make sure you get into or avoid situation A or B before it ever occurs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you're speaking out of ignorance with the above quoted text. If you think high level gamers in Quake or UT don't plan out their movements to avoid situation A or B before it occurs you're flat out wrong. That's planning, that's strategy.
One thing we can agree on is that we both want the RTS side more beefy but that can be very difficult and tricky. See my post (a couple replies down) <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=102260&st=240" target="_blank">here</a> where I explain why.
<!--quoteo(post=1736632:date=Nov 7 2009, 12:28 PM:name=Frogg2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frogg2 @ Nov 7 2009, 12:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1736632"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you sure? Blizzard has been using this method for awhile. Look at TF2 valve has balanced it for pubs and there are only 4 classes that really get used in competitive play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Starcraft was balanced by a process of attrition that took <b>over four years</b> of constant see-saw patching to achieve.
Just for the record, not all players play competitively. The word "competitive" has a different meaning in online games, it means much more than just playing to win. Of course, everyone is playing to win. For me, at least, the distinction between a competitive player and one that is not, is how far they are willing to go to get an advantage.
A more casual player will play the game out of the box, won't troll forums for better strategies or tips and is generally self-sufficient. A competitive player will tune the game to their liking outside the box with things like scripts, and will generally participate in the community more because they get invested in their game.
<!--quoteo(post=1736474:date=Nov 6 2009, 03:01 AM:name=kast)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kast @ Nov 6 2009, 03:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1736474"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ignore what homicide has to say, I'm sure hes just cranky because he got back from his prostate exam by Dr. Jellyfinger.
Love<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hahahaha
Sick!
Yeah, Homicide is just another "omg I'm cal k?" person to me.
<b>Can we get back on topic guys? This is not a competitive v casual thread. This is a "how do you feel about the size of the Skulks and Lurk in the recently posted screenshots" thread. Let's try and keep it on topic and <u>civil</u>, thanks.</b>
Seeing the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/files/ns2/NS2_marine_hallway.jpg" target="_blank">NS2_marine_hallway screenshot</a> really gives us a good idea of the art style NS2 is going for -- everything is bigger and badder than the original. The guns are louder, the bullets are bigger, the hallways are darker, and the aliens look like they've gotten a lesson or two from Vin Diesel on being a big beefy badass. From an <i>artistic standpoint alone,</i> I quite like the idea of <b>angry, doberman-sized aliens</b> creeping through the infrastructure of the map -- it's <i>unnerving,</i> to say the least. NS2 looks a whole helluva lot meaner than it's predecessor already, and <i>I like it.</i> It's like, <i>damn</i> Flayra, where'd all this <i>attitude</i> come from? And where can I get <i>more</i> of it?
The small-yet-fast nature of NS1 Skulks made them frustrating and unimpressive for new players to experience: "What was that blur-thing that just killed me? How am I supposed to hit that? How come it's so small but kills so many of us?" And then when the shoe's on the other foot: "How am I supposed to kill a gun-totting Marine and his buddies when I die to a stray fart?" There weren't any issues with the gameplay of the Skulk -- in fact it was pretty spot on for what the Skulk was -- but it's time for a change, because the old Skulk is simply underwhelming and not nearly as awesome as this new beast we've been presented with.
The new Skulk is clearly meant to strike a balance between both new and old players alike. Why do you think that it's larger, slower, has more HP, <i>but has hive one leap?</i> New players are going to find the new Skulk easier to hit as a Marine due to the increased size, easier to kill with as an Alien due to the increased health, and more fun to experience from both ends of the spectrum because <i><u>it just plain looks <b>way</b> cooler</u></i> (and it's more satisfying to shoot than tissue-paper Skulks). Old, skilled players are going to have a lot of fun with hive one leap to make up for being slower and larger target. I mean, look at the Hunter's wall jump in L4D -- new players are kind of clumsy with it, but experienced players will make your jaw hit the floor with how easily they can fling themselves about the map, making themselves VERY difficult-to-hit targets. Size isn't everything!
Remember everyone trying to stack Marines because no one really wanted to play the small, fragile, tiny Aliens? Don't think for a second that such a trend went unnoticed by the developers -- kiss those days goodbye with <i>Dieselfied</i> Skulks.
Also, I saw a lot of people mentioning what the Skulk's role is "supposed to be". For the record we don't know jack about the Fade in NS2, and it's pretty obvious from it's evolution through NS1 that the developers were never really 100% happy with the way he turned out. So maybe the Fade's role is going to shift a bit, and it leaves room for Skulks to be bigger and beefier and more badass, because the Fade is just going to be so over-the-top that it dwarfs whatever you thought was "too big" about the Skulk. ;) Just food for thought...
All in all, I like the new size increases. Skulks and Lurks were a little on the small, <i>pesky-feeling</i> side in NS1 -- as if they felt like more of an annoyance rather than an actual threat -- and now they actually look big and menacing and ####ing <b><i><u>dangerous</b></i></u>. Consider my pants creamed. Thumbs up from me.
Even tho some posters have taken a step towards the flamey-way, I actually found a few riveting reads in here. :P
The first time I saw the SS what was in my head was: "Ridiculous."
But I guess the leap action will make up for *some* of it. I must say I'll miss the feeling of vulnerability in the start on Aliens tho, when you needed to zerg or be sneaky to cope. From the "looks of it" it's gonna be a leap!->turn to next corridor->leap!->turn->leap!-turnAMAGAWDMARINERAWRAWRAWRAWRWAR!!! -tactic now. Just has a tad less flavor dunnit. But yeah, we'll see in the alpha.
EDIT: Felt like adding a mad-fanboi-oldschool-part: Being a rather good shot myself I loved how I was able to plow thru a horde of bad aliens and then getting owned by some superwickedninjainsane wall-roller. Scroll-bunnyhopping alone was awesome.
Comments
"Fans are whining, complaining dip######s who will never be happy with anything you do."
Or something. NS was a fairly popular mod. The only reason it's 'fringe' is because... it's 7 years old - only the most hardcore nerds still care about it. A lot of people played it and left over the years. And, I would add, I think the MINORITY of players actually give a ###### about 'TEH SK1LLZ' to the level you do or the 'fringe NS players' do. I loved NS to death, but I never played it so I could satisfy some primal nerd being inside me that demanded I show everyone how much better I am than them. I never played it <i>because</i> of the 'skill level' in it. I played it for fun, nothing more.
And in m opinion, a lot of NS's problems stemmed indirectly from the reliance on 'TEH SK1LLZ'. All the competitive players regarded themselves as superior beings to anyone who wasn't wearing a clan tag, the attitude in general was hostile to new players, and the Veteran program itself was a great ideal until you realized competitive players don't know their ass from a hole in the ground, and it collapsed up its own ass after ruining the game and filling the forums with elitists.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Multiplayer is inherently competitive. The deeper the game, or the more skill required to play at high level, will make the game life last longer.
If you are "playing the game for fun" you should have no problems with the game being deep.
"Fans are whining, complaining dip######s who will never be happy with anything you do."
Or something. NS was a fairly popular mod. The only reason it's 'fringe' is because... it's 7 years old - only the most hardcore nerds still care about it. A lot of people played it and left over the years. And, I would add, I think the MINORITY of players actually give a ###### about 'TEH SK1LLZ' to the level you do or the 'fringe NS players' do. I loved NS to death, but I never played it so I could satisfy some primal nerd being inside me that demanded I show everyone how much better I am than them. I never played it <i>because</i> of the 'skill level' in it. I played it for fun, nothing more.
And in m opinion, a lot of NS's problems stemmed indirectly from the reliance on 'TEH SK1LLZ'. All the competitive players regarded themselves as superior beings to anyone who wasn't wearing a clan tag, the attitude in general was hostile to new players, and the Veteran program itself was a great ideal until you realized competitive players don't know their ass from a hole in the ground, and it collapsed up its own ass after ruining the game and filling the forums with elitists.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't plays NS for the challenge? You play it to feel like a space marine?
There is something sadly pathetic about playing any game and not caring about the competitive element. Ironically, I think most people associate "nerd" with people that play non-competitive games, like table top role playing games. Trust me, there are a lot of people that want NS to be more like baseball and and less like Hello Kitty Online. Luckily, NS is a game that can easily please both: the people that want a competitive game and the people that want to play Hello Kitty Online (you).
You just sound like a queer when you claim competition is bad, everyone should be happy, everyone should play Hello Kitty Online, and everyone should play it just to have "fun".
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->(and yes, the fact that UWE plays table top role playing games in their office scares me)<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Love
Agreed (well, maybe not with the queer part), and for a game to be fun it also has to be deep, balanced, and competitive.
And Temphage, if you really want the game to be "just for fun", I'm sure someone will make a 50 level combat mod for you.
Yeah, and a role playing game is any game whatsoever that you play a role besides yourself, right?
<!--quoteo(post=1736391:date=Nov 5 2009, 07:37 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Nov 5 2009, 07:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1736391"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Veteran program?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't remember when it started, but it was basically a brilliant idea that involved getting a handful of NS clans and using them to decide balance and game direction. The effect it had on egos goes without saying.
<!--quoteo(post=1736433:date=Nov 6 2009, 12:08 AM:name=Frogg2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frogg2 @ Nov 6 2009, 12:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1736433"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Multiplayer is inherently competitive. The deeper the game, or the more skill required to play at high level, will make the game life last longer.
If you are "playing the game for fun" you should have no problems with the game being deep.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When did depth or lack thereof ever come in to this? My favorite MPFPS game of all time was Tribes 2 which was a billion times deeper than NS2 will ever be, hell, deeper than any other game has been. And it also had this awesome lack of skill ceilings and other happy crap like that that people like homicide constantly whine and moan about.
<!--quoteo(post=1736473:date=Nov 6 2009, 07:34 AM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Nov 6 2009, 07:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1736473"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You don't plays NS for the challenge? You play it to feel like a space marine?
There is something sadly pathetic about playing any game and not caring about the competitive element. Ironically, I think most people associate "nerd" with people that play non-competitive games, like table top role playing games. Trust me, there are a lot of people that want NS to be more like baseball and and less like Hello Kitty Online. Luckily, NS is a game that can easily please both: the people that want a competitive game and the people that want to play Hello Kitty Online (you).
You just sound like a queer when you claim competition is bad, everyone should be happy, everyone should play Hello Kitty Online, and everyone should play it just to have "fun".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let's get this straight. When I played NS, I'd load it up, jump in my favorite server, talk **** and hang out with the regs, and play a few games. Of course I wanted to win, that's the god damn point of the game. But I did not play with what I describe as the 'PLAY 2 WIN' mentality towards competition and winning. I do not whatsoever give even a fragment of a **** about leagues, clans, tags, and all the ridiculous moronic drama that comes along with that. I've been there, I've done that, and I'm never going there again.
PLAY 2 WIN is what I describe as the mentality that everything overall is okay, as long as it means you can be better than someone else. This means gamma tweaking, using altered models and turning off the skulk and lerk jaws, having a billion macros and scripts set up, hell if the game allows it maybe using brighter skins, and that everything you could possibly do in the game is always okay, and anyone who disagrees is a "scrub", usually followed up with some idiotic glib response like "IM CAL-P LOL U NOOBS". When I talk about 'competitive playing', I'm not talking about just competing against other players, you idiot. I'm talking about the people who take this **** way too seriously, the ones who are taking the level of competition so high that they're almost missing the entire point of the game in the first place.
Of course, then there's the other antisocial behavior that comes along with PLAY 2 WIN, <i>especially</i> in the case of NS. It was always pretty badass seeing a clan jump on my server, all stack one team, steamroll the ever living **** out of the other until they all got tired of it and quit. Or maybe they'll just sit in the hive and spawncamp for 10 minutes with shotguns - hey, even though the rules say not to do it, the GAME lets you do it so clearly the rules are wrong. The best part was when it got to the point where we were accused of "banning skill". I'm not sure which stroke of logic that was based on, some of our admins were really, really good. But no, we didn't ban competitive clan-tag-wearing ***holes because they were a bunch of d***s. We were banning them because they were just too good for us. No, I can't make up that level of idiocy.
How about some real life analogies? When you go bowling with your friends, do you pull a gun on them and accuse them of their toe being over the line, and to mark it as a zero? I... really hope not, because when you're bowling with your friends you really just don't care THAT MUCH about winning the game. Everyone's playing to win, but at the same time, if you did take it seriously, you'd be using your own $1,200 ball and shoes, wouldn't you? Likewise, if one of your friends was a champion-league bowler and after every strike proceeded to describe exactly how ****ty you are at bowling and gloat because 'HE'S IN A LEAGUE AND YOU'RE NOT LOL', how long would it take before you stop inviting him to go bowling with you?
No. I don't play my games like that. Maybe because I'm against scripts, macros, and altering the game by whatever means to get any unfair advantage you possibly can, I should just go back to Hello Kitty Online. Clearly anyone who doesn't think that's well-adjusted behavior, as you put it:
<!--quoteo(post=1736473:date=Nov 6 2009, 07:34 AM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Nov 6 2009, 07:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1736473"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->just sounds like a queer<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not that you'd know anything about being a worthless antisocial ###### on the internet or anything.
Whenever I look at a rainbow I do it properly! With energy and purpose!
If you want to debate how players "should" play the game go to the <a href="http://unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=107799" target="_blank">turning off options thread</a> where you have actual interesting gameplay aspects to argue about. The tradeoff of putting a consistency check on or making an option of an "atmospheric feature" is actually a design decision where how big the skulk will be is probably 100% playtesting determined.
The Big Lebowski ftw
but on subject... i agree that there should be a limit to what people do to win. I always found scripts and skin replacements to be somewhat cheap. ya, you discovered something that the majority of the community hasnt picked up on yet but how does that make you "better"? Your skill hasnt increased, you just gave yourself an advantage over someone who either dosnt care enough to tinker with that stuff or just dosnt know about it.
If you are resorting to using backdoor "cheats" like scripts and skin replacements you are basically like a pro athlete taking roids for an extra edge over the competition. You are playing the same game but you have something that competition dosnt have.
Because bowling singleplayer is boring.
Suppose the game was balanced so that the "average" player needed 25 bullets to kill a Skulk.
One version of the Skulk is so big and slow that players will <i>never</i> miss (it's just an example, bear with me). To stay within design parameters, this Skulk needs to be hit with 25 bullets to be killed.
Another version of the Skulk is so fast and small that players will barely be able to hit it. The "average" player will land 1/25 shots, so this Skulk only takes one bullet to kill.
For the "average" player, these Skulks are basically the same, and they can expect to kill two before reloading. However, when we start considering players who are better or worse than average, we can see how this doesn't scale at all. With a Skulk that gets hit by every bullet, it doesn't matter how good the person shooting it is; even a rookie will be just as effective as an aimbot. Conversely, when the Skulk takes one bullet to kill, the someone who never misses will be able to kill 50 without reloading, while someone with terrible aim might not manage to kill any.
Obviously good design comes somewhere between these two extremes, but the general concern here is that Skulks that are easier to hit but take more bullets to kill will devalue good aim, and games that don't reward skilled play tend to become shallow and uninteresting for good players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or at least, shallow and uninteresting for players with Bawlz amplified reactions.
Personally, I'd much rather reward the player who thought through their line of attack and was able to execute a good plan competently than reward the player with little to no plan who has honed their twitch skills and reaction time to nanoseconds. And this is as entirely selfish as people who prefer the reverse.. because I'm better with the plan and patience than I am with the hopping around like a crack-bunny.
So to me these changes to the skulk seem like a good thing. Sure, make skulks weaker against those who aren't dead-eye shots by making them larger and slower, and stronger against the aimbot target-shooter by giving them more hit-points, as long as I control the situation where I'm attacking from (and leap from the get-go is a step in this direction) that's not going to be a problem. And in return, those dead-eye shots? They're going to have to learn to play *my* game.. make sure that they control the situation when they get into the room, and not simply rely on being able to pick me off with a mouse-wheel pistol after my second bite.
To me, the best moments of NS weren't those rare times where I topped the score-board for my team, they were those times when this group of random people from across the internet just seemed to gel into a solid team and we beat back for a while what seemed to be certain death, or finally cracked that strong-hold the other team had developed. Competitive? Sure. But competitive for team-play and tactics.. not for how many kills I managed to pull before dying. Hell, I rarely had a positive K:D ratio, because I'd often play bait or distraction.
I think what I'm getting at here is that a reduction in twitch skill isn't necessarily a reduction in the skill required to play the game.. it's a transition to a different skill-set.
One that I personally approve of.
Even in games like TF2, which emphasizes teamwork and strategy and intentionally limits the abilities of skilled players, the primary determining factor in any match is deathmatching. Only if there is a rough parity of fragging power does strategy begin to matter. The only difference from a game like Counter-Strike is that in TF2 the impact of an individual is limited, so it's more important to have better deathmatchers on average than to have one exceptional player.
Ever watch a pro quake/UT player? They know exactly which weapons to use and when to use them and they make these decisions in fractions of a second. This is the kind of "think out their attack" gibberish you are talking about. Most players always 'think out their attack' as it's one of the most basic and fundamental aspects to gameplay. The difference between us and pro quake/UT players is that they also have <i>incredible</i> twitch skill.
I've yet to meet a gamer with high twitch skill who doesn't exceed at virtually all other aspects of the game. That's because twitch is a skill that takes a lot of time and practice to acquire where as planning out an attack takes a few seconds and a basic understanding of the game. We shouldn't be rewarding the skill that takes a few seconds to learn (planning), but rather the skill that allows players to grow and come become better throughout fast paced FPS games (twitch).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->a reduction in twitch skill isn't necessarily a reduction in the skill required to play the game.. it's a transition to a different skill-set.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That different skill set is shallow and boring. See TF2.
Oddly enough, I'm actually for the increased skulk size. I think that with leap at level one skulks will be flying around everywhere and there will still be plently of twitch. I just wanted to post because I'm tired of seeing people bash twitch skill. It's the most in-depth and difficult skill to master and I don't know why someone would want to remove that depth.
On pub servers they always complain about ping/lag/loss/warping/reg but they still want to own some "nubs", when a round seems to be lost, they leave and thats it.
Well... not everyone is like that but a lot of them.
I've yet to meet a gamer with high twitch skill who doesn't exceed at virtually all other aspects of the game. That's because twitch is a skill that takes a lot of time and practice to acquire where as planning out an attack takes a few seconds and a basic understanding of the game. We shouldn't be rewarding the skill that takes a few seconds to learn (planning), but rather the skill that allows players to grow and come become better throughout fast paced FPS games (twitch).
That different skill set is shallow and boring. See TF2.
Oddly enough, I'm actually for the increased skulk size. I think that with leap at level one skulks will be flying around everywhere and there will still be plently of twitch. I just wanted to post because I'm tired of seeing people bash twitch skill. It's the most in-depth and difficult skill to master and I don't know why someone would want to remove that depth.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And here we come to the crux of the matter.. shallow and boring for you, who happens to revere twitch skill, as far as I can see.
Sorry, but if you think choosing a certain weapon for a given situation is "planning out your attack" you have absolutely no clue what a plan is. That's a reaction or, at best, a tactic. And one that, like twitch skill, is best done when it's relegated to muscle memory, which is what you're advocating for: You see situation A, you do action B without even having to think about it. I'm advocating where you have to think ahead of time to make sure you get into or avoid situation A or B before it ever occurs.
They're different skills. That you think one is boring is entirely your right. It's also your personal opinion, and one that I happen to disagree with. It's part and parcel of the RTS side of NS2, one that I'm hoping we'll see considerably strengthened.
Sure, planning doesn't take any practice. After all, it's just thinking. But then again, reacting to someone attacking doesn't take any practice either.
What takes practice is doing it well. And I'm hoping that NS2 will be a game where doing the thinking part well is as important as doing the killing part well.
That sounds like a terrible idea, if you balance it based on a tiny portion of the games played you are going to get bad balance, you balance it based on how everyone plays. The larger your sample size the better your understanding of the game will be and the better your balance changes will be able to reflect the changes which need to be made.
Are you sure? Blizzard has been using this method for awhile. Look at TF2 valve has balanced it for pubs and there are only 4 classes that really get used in competitive play.
Starcraft is accesible but deep. Two new players playing works well, two intermediate works well, two pro works well. But, there is no luck that is going to allow the noob to beat the pro.
Blizzard has SC pro's paid to beta test, but they aren't who make the game. They take their input to make sure it's playable at a playable level, but the developers are mostly not very good and know how to take that suggestion to make it work well for themselves.
A game can be very good competitively but also accesible.
NS really had a lot of things that weren't intuitive. It can play just as well, if not better, by being much more understandable.
I think you're speaking out of ignorance with the above quoted text. If you think high level gamers in Quake or UT don't plan out their movements to avoid situation A or B before it occurs you're flat out wrong. That's planning, that's strategy.
One thing we can agree on is that we both want the RTS side more beefy but that can be very difficult and tricky. See my post (a couple replies down) <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=102260&st=240" target="_blank">here</a> where I explain why.
Starcraft was balanced by a process of attrition that took <b>over four years</b> of constant see-saw patching to achieve.
People like to overlook that fact.
Just for the record, not all players play competitively. The word "competitive" has a different meaning in online games, it means much more than just playing to win. Of course, everyone is playing to win. For me, at least, the distinction between a competitive player and one that is not, is how far they are willing to go to get an advantage.
A more casual player will play the game out of the box, won't troll forums for better strategies or tips and is generally self-sufficient. A competitive player will tune the game to their liking outside the box with things like scripts, and will generally participate in the community more because they get invested in their game.
Love<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hahahaha
Sick!
Yeah, Homicide is just another "omg I'm cal k?" person to me.
Seeing the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/files/ns2/NS2_marine_hallway.jpg" target="_blank">NS2_marine_hallway screenshot</a> really gives us a good idea of the art style NS2 is going for -- everything is bigger and badder than the original. The guns are louder, the bullets are bigger, the hallways are darker, and the aliens look like they've gotten a lesson or two from Vin Diesel on being a big beefy badass. From an <i>artistic standpoint alone,</i> I quite like the idea of <b>angry, doberman-sized aliens</b> creeping through the infrastructure of the map -- it's <i>unnerving,</i> to say the least. NS2 looks a whole helluva lot meaner than it's predecessor already, and <i>I like it.</i> It's like, <i>damn</i> Flayra, where'd all this <i>attitude</i> come from? And where can I get <i>more</i> of it?
The small-yet-fast nature of NS1 Skulks made them frustrating and unimpressive for new players to experience: "What was that blur-thing that just killed me? How am I supposed to hit that? How come it's so small but kills so many of us?" And then when the shoe's on the other foot: "How am I supposed to kill a gun-totting Marine and his buddies when I die to a stray fart?" There weren't any issues with the gameplay of the Skulk -- in fact it was pretty spot on for what the Skulk was -- but it's time for a change, because the old Skulk is simply underwhelming and not nearly as awesome as this new beast we've been presented with.
The new Skulk is clearly meant to strike a balance between both new and old players alike. Why do you think that it's larger, slower, has more HP, <i>but has hive one leap?</i> New players are going to find the new Skulk easier to hit as a Marine due to the increased size, easier to kill with as an Alien due to the increased health, and more fun to experience from both ends of the spectrum because <i><u>it just plain looks <b>way</b> cooler</u></i> (and it's more satisfying to shoot than tissue-paper Skulks). Old, skilled players are going to have a lot of fun with hive one leap to make up for being slower and larger target. I mean, look at the Hunter's wall jump in L4D -- new players are kind of clumsy with it, but experienced players will make your jaw hit the floor with how easily they can fling themselves about the map, making themselves VERY difficult-to-hit targets. Size isn't everything!
Remember everyone trying to stack Marines because no one really wanted to play the small, fragile, tiny Aliens? Don't think for a second that such a trend went unnoticed by the developers -- kiss those days goodbye with <i>Dieselfied</i> Skulks.
Also, I saw a lot of people mentioning what the Skulk's role is "supposed to be". For the record we don't know jack about the Fade in NS2, and it's pretty obvious from it's evolution through NS1 that the developers were never really 100% happy with the way he turned out. So maybe the Fade's role is going to shift a bit, and it leaves room for Skulks to be bigger and beefier and more badass, because the Fade is just going to be so over-the-top that it dwarfs whatever you thought was "too big" about the Skulk. ;) Just food for thought...
All in all, I like the new size increases. Skulks and Lurks were a little on the small, <i>pesky-feeling</i> side in NS1 -- as if they felt like more of an annoyance rather than an actual threat -- and now they actually look big and menacing and ####ing <b><i><u>dangerous</b></i></u>. Consider my pants creamed. Thumbs up from me.
Even tho some posters have taken a step towards the flamey-way, I actually found a few riveting reads in here. :P
The first time I saw the SS what was in my head was: "Ridiculous."
But I guess the leap action will make up for *some* of it. I must say I'll miss the feeling of vulnerability in the start on Aliens tho, when you needed to zerg or be sneaky to cope. From the "looks of it" it's gonna be a leap!->turn to next corridor->leap!->turn->leap!-turnAMAGAWDMARINERAWRAWRAWRAWRWAR!!! -tactic now. Just has a tad less flavor dunnit. But yeah, we'll see in the alpha.
EDIT: Felt like adding a mad-fanboi-oldschool-part: Being a rather good shot myself I loved how I was able to plow thru a horde of bad aliens and then getting owned by some superwickedninjainsane wall-roller. Scroll-bunnyhopping alone was awesome.