I dont think Alien Commander is a good idea.
fr0st2k
Join Date: 2004-04-26 Member: 28210Members
Join Date: 2004-04-26 Member: 28210Members
In NS, the difference between aliens and Marines are CLEAR. They bother feel completely different. However, once you eradicate that difference, balancing will force both sides to become more and more the same.
I can see it now: Marines -> ranged team / Aliens -> Melee team
The alien commander is just a bad idea, and imo will most likely steam roll the uniqueness of each side.
I actually posted a suggestion concerning balance and differentiation that i feel goes with this in the suggestion forum.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=107932" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=107932</a>
I can see it now: Marines -> ranged team / Aliens -> Melee team
The alien commander is just a bad idea, and imo will most likely steam roll the uniqueness of each side.
I actually posted a suggestion concerning balance and differentiation that i feel goes with this in the suggestion forum.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=107932" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=107932</a>
Comments
im worried that the effects of this change wont be apparent until a long time after the game is finished.
I can see it now: Marines -> ranged team / Aliens -> Melee team
The alien commander is just a bad idea, and imo will most likely steam roll the uniqueness of each side.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Having a central decision maker won't change the uniqueness of each side since the aliens will still be melee and marines will still be ranged and were in NS1. The only difference is having a central decider on upgrade path (previously decided by who could drop upgrade chambers first/which chamber order the admins on a server didn't kick people for using).
I don't like it either but I see and understand the need for the alien commander. My only hope is that they somehow make both the commanders feel different. They have a lot of work to do because in my opinion commanding was by far the weakest part of NS1 and now they've introduced multiple commanders which I think is borderline impossible to make work. By "make work" I mean adding value to each commander so that they're busy, doing something important, and would not be more useful as a FPS player on the front line.
There are very good reasons why the Alien Commander now exists and it is to solve a simple problem: NS1 could not scale because the two sides have different resource systems. The Marines had their resources funneled and managed by the Commander and the Aliens had their resources divvied up evenly between the entire time. Combined with the nature of the two sides, where the Marines have global upgrades that affect every marine for only one fixed cost and the Aliens who need to pay individually to be competitive against better equipped or upgraded marines, a problem emerges. Marines are stronger in larger games and weaker in smaller games, where each individual alien has more resources to make themselves more effective.
To have each side to share one resource system, means that both sides need have a <b>similar</b> structure. That means each side has its own commander, since the resource tower system is already unified. I bold "similar" because that does not mean the two commanders are the same. The development team said that the two function completely different, the Marine Commander leads the team, while the Alien Commander supports them.
I support idea of two commanders because it makes sense and disagree with the knee-jerk reaction that is presented here.
"you have to test it out so stop whining"
this is the stupidest thing a person could say. you can say that for everything.
"hey guys, lets have each player control 3 skulks at the same time"
"woah thats a horrible idea"
"no stfu, you have to test it out first"
There are very good reasons why the Alien Commander now exists and it is to solve a simple problem: NS1 could not scale because the two sides have different resource systems. The Marines had their resources funneled and managed by the Commander and the Aliens had their resources divvied up evenly between the entire time. Combined with the nature of the two sides, where the Marines have global upgrades that affect every marine for only one fixed cost and the Aliens who need to pay individually to be competitive against better equipped or upgraded marines, a problem emerges. Marines are stronger in larger games and weaker in smaller games, where each individual alien has more resources to make themselves more effective.
To have each side to share one resource system, means that both sides need have a <b>similar</b> structure. That means each side has its own commander, since the resource tower system is already unified. I bold "similar" because that does not mean the two commanders are the same. The development team said that the two function completely different, the Marine Commander leads the team, while the Alien Commander supports them.
I support idea of two commanders because it makes sense and disagree with the knee-jerk reaction that is presented here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
aren't there other ways to balance this rather than making each side the same? That was one of the things that make NS unique to me...that i could choose which team i wanted to play on, and get a different experience. However... with an alien commander, its not going to matter what side i pick. This in turn is just going to ruin the unique feel that NS had in the first place: and to be honest, eliminate one of its most flavorful selling points.
It took them something like 5 years to get NS right for 6 vs 6 and even now the game has got huge amount of flaws in it's structure (ineffective moments where people are just waiting for the round to finish, games that are decided too early). Large server balance is still a total mess. You can't afford to have that massive balancing period in a commercial game. In addition the alien side is still ridiculously limited to res peaks, which makes a lot of strategies pretty single minded pushes for hives and fades.
I'm going to see how it works, they've got a huge amount of potential improvements with alien commander. If NS2 fails to use those and alien commander doesn't fix anything I'll start complaining.
I'm going to see how it works, they've got a huge amount of potential improvements with alien commander. If NS2 fails to use those and alien commander doesn't fix anything I'll start complaining.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
then there is an inherent flaw in the core design. Having already created the first game, they should understand the general philosophies behind making a new design that be balanced.
If i were making a game, I would spend the first month...each 8 hour day... at a table discussing what we wanted in the game, and formulating the gameplay around that. Asking questions like: "How fast do we want the rounds to be?" "How much reliance on team members do we want?" "What is the difference between aliens and marines?" "How can we blend these gameplay mechanics into one feasible game?"
However...one of their core values should be maintaining a unique feel between aliens and marines. With 2 commanders, you are eliminating it almost immediately. Yes...its similar to an RTS, but its not one. Its and FPS/rts hybrid. You can look at games like SC, and say, all 3 races have a unique feel and play differently. The question is, will that be able to transition over into an FPS? Gameplay and that unique feel in RTS games is based on micromanagement of units and their abilities. In NS, the commander isnt moving those units around, they are all player controlled, so micromanagement isn't a factor. For the players, the unique feel comes from actually completing tasks...If both races sides task are the same (run to node, build, listen to commander), then you are effectively killing your very own game.
This is exactly what they did. They did this by introducing the alien commander. People are telling you the reasons why it's necessary and you're just ignoring them. We know practically nothing about the aliens in NS2 and saying "well both sides now have RTS players so they're not different anymore" is a statement you're making too soon. Although it will be difficult to achieve it's possible that both RTS sides will play differently and may have different roles.
Like I said in my earlier post I'm against the idea of the alien commander but I realize the game cannot properly be balanced without one. Saying "that's just a simplistic approach to fix the problem" as a rebuttal to the additional of an alien commander is weak unless you back up your statement with your suggestion toward an asymmetrical yet balanced resource model.
That's an improvement in my eyes. One of the main reasons why people were intimidated by commanding was because the FPS players would just yell for things constantly. In short, the commander was in complete control of how much fun the marines were going to have. This is horrible game design. Even if the commander in incompetent being able to buy your own shotgun with a few buddies to give your team a chance should be an option. With the commander in less direct control of the FPS players' game the tension that existed between the two sides may ease.
Like I said in my earlier post I'm against the idea of the alien commander but I realize the game cannot properly be balanced without one. Saying "that's just a simplistic approach to fix the problem" as a rebuttal to the additional of an alien commander is weak unless you back up your statement with your suggestion toward an asymmetrical yet balanced resource model.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your reasoning is, "it can't be balanced." Explain why. I dont believe that at all. You said because it took them years to balance 6v6? Well isn't that why i responding with the post you quoted? concerning their core design? I honestly dont think im ignoring anything.
I listed a thread in my OP that describes the general idea of balancing. Its crude, but it serves at least as a blueprint for how i think they can balance.
I listed a thread in my OP that describes the general idea of balancing. Its crude, but it serves at least as a blueprint for how i think they can balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You seem to be missing the point of the alien commander which is to create a resource model which can be balanced. I say you're missing the point because the thread you listed in your OP makes no mention of the resource model but instead generic references to "balance" and the friendly AOE's as if they're somehow related. Although it's difficult to understand you, I believe you're saying you don't think the NS1 resource model is unbalanced. Anyone with moderate experience would disagree with you and Flayra (in the shacknews interview I believe) already explained why the old model had to go.
To add to that, it is possible to have asymmetrical gameplay even with commanders on both sides. You must note that even though they are both called commanders, I would think that their roles for NS2 would differ drastically. Sure, it is not as asymmetrical as NS1, in that the marines had a commander and aliens didn't, but not being as asymmetrical does not mean not being asymmetrical at all.
It's like saying the empire states building is not tall because it is not as tall as the taipei 101.
You should have stopped typing the thread title at "I don't think".*
*I felt this is was way too clever not to use.
You should have stopped typing the thread title at "I don't think".*
*I felt this is was way too clever not to use.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ok great. you have successfully made me not care at all about this game. And i assure you, it will flop. quote me on this.
The addition of an alien commander and by extension a balanced resource model -- NS'2 downfall.
I might write a song about it.
Now that she's dynamic it sounds reasonable to make her player controlled, because there's no knowing what she'll be up to with such powers.
And this coming from someone who can't stand the idea of alien commanders, but at least I'm willing to see where it goes. It's really the fact that even on servers with a good comm population, commanders were in short supply and had too much responsibility and too much control over the marine game. I preferred some of the independence of the alien side, and if they can keep the independence while fixing the resource issues, I'll be more than happy.
But in all seriousness, relax and please stomach the idea that NS2 won't be exactly like NS1. The first game wasn't perfect and major game changes are <b>needed</b>. If you are this upset with the game's development process, then stop visiting the forums and wait until the alpha is announced or the game is released, and only then place your judgment on the game when it's closer to being tangible or is already completed.
But in all seriousness, relax and please stomach the idea that NS2 won't be exactly like NS1. The first game wasn't perfect and major game changes are <b>needed</b>. If you are this upset with the game's development process, then stop visiting the forums and wait until the alpha is announced or the game is released, and only then place your judgment on the game when it's closer to being tangible or is already completed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, anyone who was decent at NS1 would know how overly imbalanced both sides are when compared to each other.
Even Starcraft has its flaws, and it has been refined "A LOT" of times. And even still, some units are never/rarely used. Scout anyone?
The reason Starcraft is not completely imbalanced is that all "Workers/SCVs/Drones/Probes", collect the same type of resources and the same amount per a trip. This is not the case with NS1, and it is why it will always be impossible to have a good balance without a change to the resource models.