I'm not sure why a few posts have lashed out at Renegade as much as they have, because hes really not saying anything that extreme and troll (like NSFail), and is making some really good arguments.
I have to side with him. Its getting way too easy for developers to tone down game depth (simultaneously the learning curve and skill ceiling as well) in order just to see their sales jump. Its naive to think that "More Sales = Better Game." Making something pretty, bland, easy to pick up and play, and shallow can make TONS of sales, but that in no way means its actually a good game. What a lot of the people fear here (and do not confuse these people with the Trolls, as you seem really quick to jump on anyone who expresses doubt or worry), is that the quality, depth, complexity and thus "true-ness" (of the first NS) of the game will be sacrificed in order to make a more accessible, easy to play, and higher selling game to the mainstream audience.
Do you think the first NS would have been so good if it mainstreamed and just played as a regular online alien vs marine shooter? Do you think the first Deus Ex would have been so good if it had decided to stay main-stream for the time and not cross-genre rpg, adventure, and FPS, and instead just make a single genre game?
I'm not saying NS2 will do any of this. Personally, all of the news to date has been fine with me, since I plan to wait and see how it will play out in game, and I trust the team to do what they did with the first game. But I think its necessary you understand that people have some actual founded, logical fears, and thus stop writing them off as nay-sayers and trolls just to look like some UWE supporter-for-life.
I would much rather see UWE make NS2 as a game that pleases a million people and gets a million sales, rather than a game that pleases 50,000 hardcore fans and gets 50,000 sales. If they sell a ######load they will then have the resources to pander to the hardcore followers and make NS2:Classic (or whatever), or help support a mod group in that cause. If they pander to the hardcore fans straight up and fail to sell enough to profit, then they're just ###### right there, and as an extension, the hardcore fans are ###### too because there will be no more UWE to patch the game, support it with new content etc.
Mr. EpicJoin Date: 2003-08-01Member: 18660Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1737807:date=Nov 16 2009, 11:23 AM:name=blitz_krieg001)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (blitz_krieg001 @ Nov 16 2009, 11:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1737807"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would much rather see UWE make NS2 as a game that pleases a million people and gets a million sales, rather than a game that pleases 50,000 hardcore fans and gets 50,000 sales. If they sell a ######load they will then have the resources to pander to the hardcore followers and make NS2:Classic (or whatever), or help support a mod group in that cause. If they pander to the hardcore fans straight up and fail to sell enough to profit, then they're just ###### right there, and as an extension, the hardcore fans are ###### too because there will be no more UWE to patch the game, support it with new content etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That NEVER happens. Every game that ever turned to selling out NEVER EVER came back.
<!--quoteo(post=1737812:date=Nov 16 2009, 04:54 PM:name=CyberMantis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CyberMantis @ Nov 16 2009, 04:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1737812"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That NEVER happens. Every game that ever turned to selling out NEVER EVER came back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, lots of sales creates a lot more playerbase for any mods and such, but I just can't see NS2 gathering enough of playerbase when there are games like MW2, CS:S and TF2 on the market. Some small production just doesn't get enough of publicity, even if it's good.
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
I think a lot of people are mixing up very different things, making easy shortcuts.
Making the game easier to get into does not equal making the game dumb and lowering skill level. Games like chess or computer games like Starcraft are very easy to get into. Chess rules are really really easy but does that lower the skill level of chess? When a game is easy to get into you get to concentrate on very different things and that's where skill comes in. I do not see how getting used to a complicated system has anything to do with skill.
If a game can't appeal to the masses whats the point of the game? Having great sales theoretically is because its a great game. Nowadays there's the media and advertisement that plays a lot in sales but I don't think UWE is depending on them to make their sales. Personnaly i believe that UWE is going back to the roots of what a game should be. A game has to be easy to get into, a game has to be fun, it has to make you feel your opponent and be able to quickly analyze who's wining and who's on the lose. And i think this is where they want to go with NS2.
The core gameplay will not be about details. People only see the details but there is an invisible structure that really makes the game what it is. As Louis Khan said about building, you must start with the unmeasurable (the ideas, the core, the spirit) and turn that into measurable (the materiel product). People will only see the measurable yet this invisible unmeasurable will make this materiality different and unique from other measurables. A lot of people think it's the measurable that makes something but it is something much deeper, in the structure, that really makes something what it is. A lot of main-stream games are just a copy of another measurable game. Yet they do not have any spirit, any uniqueness but physical attributes ( the way the gun is shaped, the costumes the figures wear...). But your soul is not fooled and you know you've played this before (just another fps?).
But NS2 has a spirit, it is not based on its physicality but on its structure. And until we haven't playtested it, there is no way we can feel what this game is really going to be about.
If your only problem about NS2 is you would rather have a knife than and axe, a walking gorge rather than a sliding one, a knifing exo rather than a punching one... there's always going to be something you'll have a problem with. We might be in a material mentality driven society, but I'm sure you people agree that life can't be analyzed through materiality. It is the same with everything, as well as with games, spirituality is much more important and defines things in a much better way than materiality.
A the present point, what people are expressing is only their faith in NS2, we can't judge anything else from what we know and seen. Either you have faith and you are patiently waiting to see the result, either you don't have faith and all you see seems wrong. Through all these post we can analyze people's mentality, but there is nothing really influential on what NS2 will and should be. In the same way I know that if you have faith in NS2 and have a bit of experience with real life this post will make sens and if not, its just going to sound like crazy mumbling doomed to failure. It depends on whats on your mind? faith or failure?
<!--quoteo(post=1737769:date=Nov 16 2009, 02:59 AM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Nov 16 2009, 02:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1737769"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When NS1 vets get upset because of the lockdown ability, for example, it's because lockdown goes directly against one of the reasons why NS1 was great.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Do you even remember the last year or two of NS's active development life, from 2.0 to 3.0?
Being a 'vet' doesn't mean you know a damn thing, or that your opinion is even REMOTELY more valid than a "scrub", as we are called.
In my favorite comparison since the situations are similar, Tribes 1 to Tribes 2. Dynamix ignored the ###### out of the Tribes 1 vets who just moaned non-stop, and the game was better for it.
<!--quoteo(post=1737673:date=Nov 15 2009, 02:51 AM:name=Apollonius999)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Apollonius999 @ Nov 15 2009, 02:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1737673"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok so i've been reading updates, things like HA punching a skulk<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So that whole fight in Aliens where Ripley is in the mech thing and is fighting the Queen was a joke? The act of using a mobile suit of armor to punch aliens into squishy matter is just pure awesome. It might be funny- Because the alien is so squished. As for the belly slide- Have you seen the belly on that thing? He'd be an idiot if he <i>didn't</i> slide around on it.
You ask whats wrong with being a simple game. Well whats wrong with having a game that you enjoy and makes you laugh occasionally?
I'm a Vet from 1.0, and I always have thought NS1 was imbalanced in a bad way.
The Kharaa always got the short end of the stick, when it came to a competent team of Marines.
I like how it is/was in the old AvP games, where the Marines were considered the weaker race. Just like in the lore how they are preyed upon by the Predators, and how the Aliens are just too numerous and powerful when they get in the close range. It is just too much for the Marines to handle if both those teams are working together against the Marines (it happened, and it was pretty funny to get it going in a public game).
In all extent and purposes, the Predator equivalent in NS1 is the Fade. The Onos costed too much to bring out consistently, and the Lerk was really only useful until the 2nd Hive. Gorges are ripped out of the equation, because they are essentially NS1's version of an Alien Commander. Skulks however, were very weak in the early game. When they recieved Leap at Hive 2, then they were on an equal balance with the Marines.
Kind of like what is being done for NS2... OH SNAP!? NEW IDEAS IN MY NS2!?
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1737769:date=Nov 15 2009, 09:59 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Nov 15 2009, 09:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1737769"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->TF2 is a shallow game that becomes boring quickly because of the very small skill ceiling.
Also, way to compare a little known mod to the official sequel made by the developers who also packaged the game with two highly anticipated games.
NS2 may not be NS1 but the core fundamentals of NS1, in my opinion, should be present in NS2. I see those fundamentals as 1) teamwork 2) different teams with different playstyles 3) a commander and 4) fast paced gameplay. When NS1 vets get upset because of the lockdown ability, for example, it's because lockdown goes directly against one of the reasons why NS1 was great. Then everyone else floods in with "wait to playtest" or "NS2 does not equal NS1" as if that somehow adds something to the conversation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well those are your reasons NS1 is great but those aren't all of my reasons.
Given your stated reasons though I don't see why your against a lockdown mode. It requires your 1.) and enhances your 2.) with the onos as a contrast. It also ties into your 4), heavies and onos in NS1 are about using strategic advantages gained through map control; they're a core part of the RTS/FPS hybrid.
It minorly affects 3) but that's a necessity to go along with 4). Lockdown is a top tier ability, and you'll be able to buy your own equipment so you'll still be able to go jp and fade so it's not like that part of the game is suddenly removed.
This is dumb. It always comes down to the same thing. Its either troll posts or reverse-troll posts. Any discussion with a trace of doubt gets shut down by people like Silverfox and others. Either someone posts something absurdly dumb, or in the chance that someone posts some worthwhile discussion but HAPPENS to have a little doubt, all of a sudden, according to our "outstanding members of the community" they "hate NS2 and changes and blah blah blah blah". Once again only the people on the friges, extremes get heard. The noisy trolls, or the people that think any discussion, criticism, or worries, is hating on the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1737771:date=Nov 15 2009, 10:32 PM:name=Silver_Fox)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Silver_Fox @ Nov 15 2009, 10:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1737771"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The 'little known mod' was actually quite well known at the time specifically <b>because</b> it claimed it was going to take TF 'back to its roots' and be the fast paced game play that the original was.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If we're talking about the same mod, I believe it released right before or after the TF2 beta went out. The TF2 beta release mostly overshadowed the mod's release. It was not well known, in that argument you're just flat out wrong. The fact that you continue to compare this mod to a development studio who heavily marketed not only TF2 but also the other two games it came packaged with astounds me.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Saying something along the lines of them 'just' being a mod team vs a huge developer is irrelevant, because if the <b>game</b> they made was <b>that</b> good, people would be flocking to it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Irrelevant to what? The main thing you're comparing is player numbers from a mod, that was probably on front page of moddb and PHL for a few days, to that of a retail game released from one of the biggest development studios and the second biggest publisher. If you cannot see the difference that makes in publicity alone then I'm not going to type a thesis on the matter because you're clearly lost. Too bad we could take a poll from current TF2 players and ask if they've ever heard of Fortress Forever. I bet most would think it's an upcoming expansion.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I still fail to see why you can be so upset about changes that you haven't even tried yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know why you said "I'm so upset" because I'm not. You actually seem to be more upset in your counterarguments than me. My post laid out why people disagree with you, which you ignored and went into some irrelevant rant, and that repeating "wait to beta test it" or "NS1 isn't NS2" as a rebuttal doesn't add anything to the conversation.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just went back and deleted half of this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd hate to see the other half.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>1)</b> There is absolutely no negative to waiting until the game is playable and forming decisions based on actual game play - rather than theory crafting <b>2)</b> The game play will most certainly be different. I don't expect why people assume this not to be the case.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) The developers post what they're thinking to get feedback from NS1 fans. Theory crafting is the only possible method we have. If you do not think this is helpful then do not contribute to it. If UWE didn't want theory crafting we wouldn't know anything about NS2. Weak argument.
2) Yes, the game play will be different. As I said in my first post, NS1 had core fundamentals that made it great. I told you what mine were and even with different game play I'd hope to see those fundamentals in NS2.
I've also noticed that you sensationalize the side you're arguing against. See some fun examples below:
I still fail to see why you can be so upset we'd all be playing Pong v393 There is, however, quite the negative of insisting you never see a feature in the game because of some sort of fear the game will some how be dramatically changed in some sort of magical way Perhaps Flayra will take the game in a direction I don't want to. Will it suck? Sure ... but I'm not going to demand his first born over it.
Learn to internet debate over worthless topics correctly.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Being a 'vet' doesn't mean you know a damn thing, or that your opinion is even REMOTELY more valid than a "scrub", as we are called.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I used the term 'vet' to describe someone who's played NS1 and is against a change in NS2 based off their NS1 experiences. I like the outburst of random rage though.
/edit:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well those are your reasons NS1 is great but those aren't all of my reasons.
Given your stated reasons though I don't see why your against a lockdown mode. It requires your 1.) and enhances your 2.) with the onos as a contrast. It also ties into your 4), heavies and onos in NS1 are about using strategic advantages gained through map control; they're a core part of the RTS/FPS hybrid.
It minorly affects 3) but that's a necessity to go along with 4). Lockdown is a top tier ability, and you'll be able to buy your own equipment so you'll still be able to go jp and fade so it's not like that part of the game is suddenly removed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the post everyone should be +1'ing. Take note Silver_Fox; it's concise, addresses my points with reason, and then backs them up.
Personally, I'm not against lockdown (I was just using it as an example in that post) but I'd be lying if I said I'm not concerned about it. Mainly because of my number 4 (fast paced gameplay). Honestly, you could say the development and use of anything that requires resources is "using a strategic advantage gained through map control" and is therefor "a core to the RTS/FPS hybird."
I think what were seeing here is a little bit of a heavy backlash after seeing the lengths to which people go to bash this game for no, for lack of a better word, good reason. Its akin to the fact that after a major terrorist attack, suddenly refusing to take off your shoes at an airport is an arrestable offense. Sorry Sentry, I think you just happened to post good criticism at a bad time and that why your getting a little flame :P
<!--quoteo(post=1737889:date=Nov 16 2009, 07:02 PM:name=JAmazon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JAmazon @ Nov 16 2009, 07:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1737889"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...after a major terrorist attack, suddenly refusing to take off your shoes at an airport is an arrestable offense...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you all went way off topic and ignored logical debates. Rather went on tangents while using references to try to explain. Then the references were seen as the main debate which was NS2 which is NOT NS1 because natural selection isn't natural selection. Since there was no Debate here because the majority of the users are obviously illiterate or full of rage themselves. Thank you for taking a debatable topic and calling the people who have supported and continue to support the game keeping their flagship alive a bunch of bitter shells. It's like an old man and a kid. The old man knows that fire burns, the little kid jumps with glee and tries to grab it.
Thanks for ruining the topic! For those that did stay on topic and try to support this as a discussion, Thanks. For the other half that just said "don't say anything before you play it" There is a reason they are getting input from the community for the game. Your obviously all down syndromes with a lack of synapse responses in the lobes of apparently burnt ash you call brains.
/###### over
p.s. I'll wait and see but i would rather get as much of it right the first time. Unless everyone falls in place with Microsoft releasing unfinished systems and lots of bugs NOT in the alpha / beta but in their full release.
The OP was that any new addition to the game is considered a joke no reasoning behind it other then "everyones laughing at you", so it was pretty much destined to fail. Just to show you what I mean
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->things like HA punching a skulk<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->knockback<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Same thing, right? <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->gorges belly sliding<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Didn't this come about after a huge thread dedicated to how cute the new gorge was and there should be something reflecting this? I can see this being a joke, because it was meant to be for a laugh. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and all this extra jazz<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Vague, so I can only assume its anything not carbon copied from ns1
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited November 2009
Short version of this thread and many more threads to come?
NS1 is in simple terms, bad game design even it was very groundbreaking for its time. This is mainly a result of the goldSRC engine limitations and the sheer learning curve required to even be able to stay alive for more then a minute. Not to mention the "one way win strategy" that is needed to win a round. To overcome these two obstacle, something HAS to change to making NS2 a better game...
A newbie for instance has to be able to contribute to the team effort, making them feel useful. If they mess up something, it shouldn't have much impact on the win or lose situation of the round. Like a Gorge building the wrong upgrade chamber, or a newbie jumping into the command chair and dropping weapons/outfit for himself. Players not building stuff for the marine team etc... <-- I've seen UWE address these problems in their discussions...
But making the core game easy to get into to be able to help out the team, doesn't mean dumbing down the game... It just means that newbies can actually play the game without rage-quiting due to lack of knowledge. A game can be as deep as NS1 (and even deeper), while still teaching the newbies the core elements... The individual skilled/knowledgeable player should of course still have their own "greater" impact on giving their team an advantage.
Now all of you "I want to discuss the same thing over and over again, just because I can" peeps... GTFO, you're even close to annoying me... And I never get annoyed, at all... :D
TLDR;<ul><li>Easy to learn core game elements so newbies can have fun as well, does not mean dumbing down a game. As long as there are more then just core elements to learn FFS</li><li>NS1's one way win strategies have to go, there have to be more then 3 ways to win a round (so newbies are able to make their mistakes and learn from them, without everyone getting mad at them)</li><li>Teamplay has priority over everything, even the one man wrecking crew!</li><li>Also something about you guys being boring and should stop discussing the same thing over and over again...</li><li>Another good post in this thread by <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=107882&st=37" target="_blank">Evil_bOb1</a></li><li>Now get yourself a cookie, sit back and sure as hell enjoy that cookie. While thinking up something interesting to discuss instead of these reruns :P</li></ul>
<!--quoteo(post=1738981:date=Nov 23 2009, 11:57 AM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Nov 23 2009, 11:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1738981"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->TLDR;<ul><li>Easy to learn core game elements so newbies can have fun as well, does not mean dumbing down a game. As long as there are more then just core elements to learn FFS</li><li>NS1's one way win strategies have to go, there have to be more then 3 ways to win a round (so newbies are able to make their mistakes and learn from them, without everyone getting mad at them)</li><li>Teamplay has priority over everything, even the one man wrecking crew!</li><li>Also something about you guys being boring and should stop discussing the same thing over and over again...</li><li>Another good post in this thread by <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=107882&st=37" target="_blank">Evil_bOb1</a></li><li>Now get yourself a cookie, sit back and sure as hell enjoy that cookie. While thinking up something interesting to discuss instead of these reruns :P</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just recently fired up NS1 for the first time in years. Hopped into a small server mostly comprised of unskilled players (and a handfull of wrecking crew guys who frequent the server). And the first thing I realised is that I had forgotten just about ALL the maps. People screaming ''go here FFS" as I stumbled the map open while trying to remember how this map in perticular played out. Getting eaten or shot a few times simply because I was to busy examining the map to react to it. It reminded me of how hard it was the first time I fired this game up. NS1 was pretty challenging to get use to compared to other FPS and it required alot more knowledge (maps and the many area names in each map, what to push and when depending on the alien hive) And people Rage pretty flippin badly if you mess even somthing small up.
Easy to learn core game elements will DEFINATLY make the game an easyer pill to swallow at the get go. Not everyone that plays a internet game is savy enuff to ignore the hateraid that follows the learning curve. (reminds me of old discussions of how Noob became slander instead of an apology or asking for help/understanding)
I dont know how they would get rid of the one way win strategies. The game to me seems pretty dependant on that. Early Fade or HA train usually always spell the end to come (its rare but ive seen tides turn). And usually either of these simply ment that in the early game one side was winning (and got more resources from that) Im interested to see solutions to this :]
<--- Boring
Im not one for cookies myself, but I'll tip my coffee mug your way.
^^Did the same thing recently and was being eaten alive by my team and the other team D: But after a few rounds I got my twitch back and remembered the flow of the game. NS1 is a truly unique FPS in that its one of the only ones I can think of where your skill in the game is actually a 'use it or lose it' kind of thing. I can jump into, for example, CODMW2 and completely annihilate, having never played the game before. I take a few weeks off of NS and I can't tell my boomstick from a candy cane :P
Yes I can see why a few additons would make the game where fat aliens vomit magic plants which shoot spikes at soldiers who all shoot like rambo and wear jetpacks infinitely more silly, because clearly the original is a serious social commentary and cannot be mocked in any way.
<!--quoteo(post=1739027:date=Nov 23 2009, 12:56 PM:name=JAmazon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JAmazon @ Nov 23 2009, 12:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1739027"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->^^Did the same thing recently and was being eaten alive by my team and the other team D: But after a few rounds I got my twitch back and remembered the flow of the game. NS1 is a truly unique FPS in that its one of the only ones I can think of where your skill in the game is actually a 'use it or lose it' kind of thing. I can jump into, for example, CODMW2 and completely annihilate, having never played the game before. I take a few weeks off of NS and I can't tell my boomstick from a candy cane :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I did the same exact thing recently! And I dont even OWN AN XBOX. I whooped on all my friends and gloated that they should try shooting a skulk. When I go back to a normal FPS; Headshot like crazy haha. So easy in comparison to leaping killer alien bobcats.
I like that the skill gap is that apparent though, it makes the game feel more acomplished. Just hard to find a balance for it.
<!--quoteo(post=1739028:date=Nov 23 2009, 06:04 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Nov 23 2009, 06:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1739028"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes I can see why a few additons would make the game where fat aliens vomit magic plants which shoot spikes at soldiers who all shoot like rambo and wear jetpacks infinitely more silly, because clearly the original is a serious social commentary and cannot be mocked in any way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<i>additions</i>
What are these magic plants you speak of?
No one claimed that Natural Selection is a social commentary or should maintain 'realism'. However, that doesn't mean we want emo gorges who can belly slide, skulk punching, movement/aim interference from being spit, tasers replacing a knife, and dual wielding heavy armor.
No one claimed that Natural Selection is a social commentary or should maintain 'realism'. However, that doesn't mean we want emo gorges who can belly slide, skulk punching, movement/aim interference from being spit, tasers replacing a knife, and dual wielding heavy armor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Offence chambers? They always looked like magic alien flowers to me.
NS and indeed, most multiplayer games, almost always have an element of silliness in them, it comes from doing something fun with other people. If you don't put it in people will make their own.
<!--quoteo(post=1739026:date=Nov 24 2009, 03:45 AM:name=Ashkajioni)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ashkajioni @ Nov 24 2009, 03:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1739026"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I dont know how they would get rid of the one way win strategies. The game to me seems pretty dependant on that. Early Fade or HA train usually always spell the end to come (its rare but ive seen tides turn). And usually either of these simply ment that in the early game one side was winning (and got more resources from that) Im interested to see solutions to this :]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The reason imo why the tide rarely turned in NS1 is due to the win conditions being so closely linked to the alien upgrade path. If the tide turned it was usually in the marines favour as their upgrade path was independent of hive control. Note that "solving" this wouldn't neccessarily make the game better though. Make it so the alien upgrades don't rely on the hives at all (so you can still spawn onos/fade even if you have only one hive, upgrade abilities aren't affected by a hive loss). How/when the aliens get the upgrade is another issue. Have more than three hives in a map, so fades/onos/upgrades are still available even if the marines have occupied 1 or 2 hives.
From the sounds of things, it seems NS2 will have this separation of win condition and upgrade path for the aliens, upgrades will be based less on having hives, and more on a players resources and commanders decisions?
<!--quoteo(post=1737792:date=Nov 16 2009, 10:46 AM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Nov 16 2009, 10:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1737792"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->concerned players who know what actually constitutes gameplay. I'm sure you'll remember us the next time you get punch-rushed by heavies. Allow me to be more specific: Look around - mainstream gaming is taking off, it's where the money is. Don't think for a second they couldn't sell milllions if they gave the gorge a sims wardrobe and called it modern warfare. So your opinion short-sights our entire stance as traditional players. It's not about sales, it's not about success - it's about whether or not you sell-out to them. TF2 is a sell-out; adding 'cool addons', making NS 'easier to play' and 'more quick to pick up' will make NS a sell-out too. So no - you can't please them all, but if you care about integrity, you'll please the ones that were with you from the start.
any idea can be play tested to work, but there's merit in drawing caution to gimmicks that shouldn't ever be.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahahahaha, someone "keeping it real". TF2 is not a sell-out. It is a really deep shooter that looks like it is some simple arcade game. I HATED the orginal TF for HL1. It bombed harder than anyone could imagine. But TF2 is great. Great style and it has some depth. I would be very happy if NS2 gets "mainstream" as in large sales and many people playing. And do not use words like integrity here. Making a mainstream game that appeals many people is in no way less "integrity" than some obscure game no one plays. And what is the issue with the SIMS 3 and MW2? Have not played MW2 yet but it looks really nice. Also making a game that sells a lot and is great (these things usually fall together and are not exclusive to each other like some obscure videogame alternative hippies think) is a very sensible thing. I mean you got to pay salaries to employees etc. And everyone working in games industry wants to make money off their work. And about people "being with you from the start" The initial base amount of players for NS2 will be NS1 players who liked the game. But the game has to appeal to new customers too, and even more than to NS1 players. So making a game that is appealing to completely new players is WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY more important than "keeping it real" with the "veterans". NS1 did not pay charlie's rent, but NS2 hopefully will.
Well, if you measure success by profit margin then TF2 has been a smash hit. If you measure it by overall gameplay, innovation, map design, replay value you could make a different conclusion about the game. Valve truly knows how to make an appealing game to casual players and children but if you think TF2 will have lasting appeal for years and will change the FPS genre all together you're delusional. The life cycle of that game is already in decay, well before they've finished with the class updates. Sniping competitive players within this community is appreciated, expected, and welcomed - please continue with the disrespect of players who liked NS enough to dedicate time to playing it beyond a public community, helped balance the game through the veteran program, and donate to the constellation program. These are the players who are more likely to spread the word to their friends about the game than a whole new influx of new players that magically hear about the game through UWE's marketing campaign. You forget that Valve is an enourmous company capable of television advertising (see L4D2 trailers during football, etc) that allow it sell copies of their games that are now being packaged together and cross-promoted.
Comments
I have to side with him. Its getting way too easy for developers to tone down game depth (simultaneously the learning curve and skill ceiling as well) in order just to see their sales jump. Its naive to think that "More Sales = Better Game." Making something pretty, bland, easy to pick up and play, and shallow can make TONS of sales, but that in no way means its actually a good game. What a lot of the people fear here (and do not confuse these people with the Trolls, as you seem really quick to jump on anyone who expresses doubt or worry), is that the quality, depth, complexity and thus "true-ness" (of the first NS) of the game will be sacrificed in order to make a more accessible, easy to play, and higher selling game to the mainstream audience.
Do you think the first NS would have been so good if it mainstreamed and just played as a regular online alien vs marine shooter? Do you think the first Deus Ex would have been so good if it had decided to stay main-stream for the time and not cross-genre rpg, adventure, and FPS, and instead just make a single genre game?
I'm not saying NS2 will do any of this. Personally, all of the news to date has been fine with me, since I plan to wait and see how it will play out in game, and I trust the team to do what they did with the first game. But I think its necessary you understand that people have some actual founded, logical fears, and thus stop writing them off as nay-sayers and trolls just to look like some UWE supporter-for-life.
just do this:
if (i_like_ns1 && i_dont_like_ns2)
play_ns1;
else
play_ns2;
You already have ns1, don't wait ns2 just to play a game that you already can play ;)
That NEVER happens. Every game that ever turned to selling out NEVER EVER came back.
Well, lots of sales creates a lot more playerbase for any mods and such, but I just can't see NS2 gathering enough of playerbase when there are games like MW2, CS:S and TF2 on the market. Some small production just doesn't get enough of publicity, even if it's good.
Making the game easier to get into does not equal making the game dumb and lowering skill level. Games like chess or computer games like Starcraft are very easy to get into. Chess rules are really really easy but does that lower the skill level of chess? When a game is easy to get into you get to concentrate on very different things and that's where skill comes in. I do not see how getting used to a complicated system has anything to do with skill.
If a game can't appeal to the masses whats the point of the game? Having great sales theoretically is because its a great game. Nowadays there's the media and advertisement that plays a lot in sales but I don't think UWE is depending on them to make their sales. Personnaly i believe that UWE is going back to the roots of what a game should be. A game has to be easy to get into, a game has to be fun, it has to make you feel your opponent and be able to quickly analyze who's wining and who's on the lose. And i think this is where they want to go with NS2.
The core gameplay will not be about details. People only see the details but there is an invisible structure that really makes the game what it is. As Louis Khan said about building, you must start with the unmeasurable (the ideas, the core, the spirit) and turn that into measurable (the materiel product). People will only see the measurable yet this invisible unmeasurable will make this materiality different and unique from other measurables. A lot of people think it's the measurable that makes something but it is something much deeper, in the structure, that really makes something what it is. A lot of main-stream games are just a copy of another measurable game. Yet they do not have any spirit, any uniqueness but physical attributes ( the way the gun is shaped, the costumes the figures wear...). But your soul is not fooled and you know you've played this before (just another fps?).
But NS2 has a spirit, it is not based on its physicality but on its structure. And until we haven't playtested it, there is no way we can feel what this game is really going to be about.
If your only problem about NS2 is you would rather have a knife than and axe, a walking gorge rather than a sliding one, a knifing exo rather than a punching one... there's always going to be something you'll have a problem with. We might be in a material mentality driven society, but I'm sure you people agree that life can't be analyzed through materiality. It is the same with everything, as well as with games, spirituality is much more important and defines things in a much better way than materiality.
A the present point, what people are expressing is only their faith in NS2, we can't judge anything else from what we know and seen. Either you have faith and you are patiently waiting to see the result, either you don't have faith and all you see seems wrong. Through all these post we can analyze people's mentality, but there is nothing really influential on what NS2 will and should be. In the same way I know that if you have faith in NS2 and have a bit of experience with real life this post will make sens and if not, its just going to sound like crazy mumbling doomed to failure. It depends on whats on your mind? faith or failure?
Great post +1
A little flowery, but everyone should read this and internalize it before continuing with the internet :P
Do you even remember the last year or two of NS's active development life, from 2.0 to 3.0?
Being a 'vet' doesn't mean you know a damn thing, or that your opinion is even REMOTELY more valid than a "scrub", as we are called.
In my favorite comparison since the situations are similar, Tribes 1 to Tribes 2. Dynamix ignored the ###### out of the Tribes 1 vets who just moaned non-stop, and the game was better for it.
So that whole fight in Aliens where Ripley is in the mech thing and is fighting the Queen was a joke? The act of using a mobile suit of armor to punch aliens into squishy matter is just pure awesome. It might be funny- Because the alien is so squished. As for the belly slide- Have you seen the belly on that thing? He'd be an idiot if he <i>didn't</i> slide around on it.
You ask whats wrong with being a simple game. Well whats wrong with having a game that you enjoy and makes you laugh occasionally?
The Kharaa always got the short end of the stick, when it came to a competent team of Marines.
I like how it is/was in the old AvP games, where the Marines were considered the weaker race. Just like in the lore how they are preyed upon by the Predators, and how the Aliens are just too numerous and powerful when they get in the close range. It is just too much for the Marines to handle if both those teams are working together against the Marines (it happened, and it was pretty funny to get it going in a public game).
In all extent and purposes, the Predator equivalent in NS1 is the Fade. The Onos costed too much to bring out consistently, and the Lerk was really only useful until the 2nd Hive. Gorges are ripped out of the equation, because they are essentially NS1's version of an Alien Commander. Skulks however, were very weak in the early game. When they recieved Leap at Hive 2, then they were on an equal balance with the Marines.
Kind of like what is being done for NS2... OH SNAP!? NEW IDEAS IN MY NS2!?
(Yeah...)
Also, way to compare a little known mod to the official sequel made by the developers who also packaged the game with two highly anticipated games.
NS2 may not be NS1 but the core fundamentals of NS1, in my opinion, should be present in NS2. I see those fundamentals as 1) teamwork 2) different teams with different playstyles 3) a commander and 4) fast paced gameplay. When NS1 vets get upset because of the lockdown ability, for example, it's because lockdown goes directly against one of the reasons why NS1 was great. Then everyone else floods in with "wait to playtest" or "NS2 does not equal NS1" as if that somehow adds something to the conversation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well those are your reasons NS1 is great but those aren't all of my reasons.
Given your stated reasons though I don't see why your against a lockdown mode. It requires your 1.) and enhances your 2.) with the onos as a contrast. It also ties into your 4), heavies and onos in NS1 are about using strategic advantages gained through map control; they're a core part of the RTS/FPS hybrid.
It minorly affects 3) but that's a necessity to go along with 4). Lockdown is a top tier ability, and you'll be able to buy your own equipment so you'll still be able to go jp and fade so it's not like that part of the game is suddenly removed.
Guess this is the internet afterall.
If we're talking about the same mod, I believe it released right before or after the TF2 beta went out. The TF2 beta release mostly overshadowed the mod's release. It was not well known, in that argument you're just flat out wrong. The fact that you continue to compare this mod to a development studio who heavily marketed not only TF2 but also the other two games it came packaged with astounds me.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Saying something along the lines of them 'just' being a mod team vs a huge developer is irrelevant, because if the <b>game</b> they made was <b>that</b> good, people would be flocking to it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Irrelevant to what? The main thing you're comparing is player numbers from a mod, that was probably on front page of moddb and PHL for a few days, to that of a retail game released from one of the biggest development studios and the second biggest publisher. If you cannot see the difference that makes in publicity alone then I'm not going to type a thesis on the matter because you're clearly lost. Too bad we could take a poll from current TF2 players and ask if they've ever heard of Fortress Forever. I bet most would think it's an upcoming expansion.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I still fail to see why you can be so upset about changes that you haven't even tried yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know why you said "I'm so upset" because I'm not. You actually seem to be more upset in your counterarguments than me. My post laid out why people disagree with you, which you ignored and went into some irrelevant rant, and that repeating "wait to beta test it" or "NS1 isn't NS2" as a rebuttal doesn't add anything to the conversation.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just went back and deleted half of this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd hate to see the other half.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>1)</b> There is absolutely no negative to waiting until the game is playable and forming decisions based on actual game play - rather than theory crafting <b>2)</b> The game play will most certainly be different. I don't expect why people assume this not to be the case.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) The developers post what they're thinking to get feedback from NS1 fans. Theory crafting is the only possible method we have. If you do not think this is helpful then do not contribute to it. If UWE didn't want theory crafting we wouldn't know anything about NS2. Weak argument.
2) Yes, the game play will be different. As I said in my first post, NS1 had core fundamentals that made it great. I told you what mine were and even with different game play I'd hope to see those fundamentals in NS2.
I've also noticed that you sensationalize the side you're arguing against. See some fun examples below:
I still fail to see why you can be so upset
we'd all be playing Pong v393
There is, however, quite the negative of insisting you never see a feature in the game because of some sort of fear the game will some how be dramatically changed in some sort of magical way
Perhaps Flayra will take the game in a direction I don't want to. Will it suck? Sure ... but I'm not going to demand his first born over it.
Learn to internet debate over worthless topics correctly.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Being a 'vet' doesn't mean you know a damn thing, or that your opinion is even REMOTELY more valid than a "scrub", as we are called.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I used the term 'vet' to describe someone who's played NS1 and is against a change in NS2 based off their NS1 experiences. I like the outburst of random rage though.
/edit:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well those are your reasons NS1 is great but those aren't all of my reasons.
Given your stated reasons though I don't see why your against a lockdown mode. It requires your 1.) and enhances your 2.) with the onos as a contrast. It also ties into your 4), heavies and onos in NS1 are about using strategic advantages gained through map control; they're a core part of the RTS/FPS hybrid.
It minorly affects 3) but that's a necessity to go along with 4). Lockdown is a top tier ability, and you'll be able to buy your own equipment so you'll still be able to go jp and fade so it's not like that part of the game is suddenly removed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the post everyone should be +1'ing. Take note Silver_Fox; it's concise, addresses my points with reason, and then backs them up.
Personally, I'm not against lockdown (I was just using it as an example in that post) but I'd be lying if I said I'm not concerned about it. Mainly because of my number 4 (fast paced gameplay). Honestly, you could say the development and use of anything that requires resources is "using a strategic advantage gained through map control" and is therefor "a core to the RTS/FPS hybird."
<a href="http://www.xkcd.com/651/" target="_blank">http://www.xkcd.com/651/</a>
Thanks for ruining the topic! For those that did stay on topic and try to support this as a discussion, Thanks. For the other half that just said "don't say anything before you play it" There is a reason they are getting input from the community for the game. Your obviously all down syndromes with a lack of synapse responses in the lobes of apparently burnt ash you call brains.
/###### over
p.s. I'll wait and see but i would rather get as much of it right the first time. Unless everyone falls in place with Microsoft releasing unfinished systems and lots of bugs NOT in the alpha / beta but in their full release.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->things like HA punching a skulk<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->knockback<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Same thing, right?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->gorges belly sliding<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Didn't this come about after a huge thread dedicated to how cute the new gorge was and there should be something reflecting this? I can see this being a joke, because it was meant to be for a laugh.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and all this extra jazz<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Vague, so I can only assume its anything not carbon copied from ns1
NS1 is in simple terms, bad game design even it was very groundbreaking for its time. This is mainly a result of the goldSRC engine limitations and the sheer learning curve required to even be able to stay alive for more then a minute. Not to mention the "one way win strategy" that is needed to win a round. To overcome these two obstacle, something HAS to change to making NS2 a better game...
A newbie for instance has to be able to contribute to the team effort, making them feel useful. If they mess up something, it shouldn't have much impact on the win or lose situation of the round. Like a Gorge building the wrong upgrade chamber, or a newbie jumping into the command chair and dropping weapons/outfit for himself. Players not building stuff for the marine team etc... <-- I've seen UWE address these problems in their discussions...
But making the core game easy to get into to be able to help out the team, doesn't mean dumbing down the game... It just means that newbies can actually play the game without rage-quiting due to lack of knowledge. A game can be as deep as NS1 (and even deeper), while still teaching the newbies the core elements... The individual skilled/knowledgeable player should of course still have their own "greater" impact on giving their team an advantage.
Now all of you "I want to discuss the same thing over and over again, just because I can" peeps... GTFO, you're even close to annoying me... And I never get annoyed, at all... :D
TLDR;<ul><li>Easy to learn core game elements so newbies can have fun as well, does not mean dumbing down a game. As long as there are more then just core elements to learn FFS</li><li>NS1's one way win strategies have to go, there have to be more then 3 ways to win a round (so newbies are able to make their mistakes and learn from them, without everyone getting mad at them)</li><li>Teamplay has priority over everything, even the one man wrecking crew!</li><li>Also something about you guys being boring and should stop discussing the same thing over and over again...</li><li>Another good post in this thread by <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=107882&st=37" target="_blank">Evil_bOb1</a></li><li>Now get yourself a cookie, sit back and sure as hell enjoy that cookie. While thinking up something interesting to discuss instead of these reruns :P</li></ul>
I just recently fired up NS1 for the first time in years. Hopped into a small server mostly comprised of unskilled players (and a handfull of wrecking crew guys who frequent the server). And the first thing I realised is that I had forgotten just about ALL the maps. People screaming ''go here FFS" as I stumbled the map open while trying to remember how this map in perticular played out. Getting eaten or shot a few times simply because I was to busy examining the map to react to it. It reminded me of how hard it was the first time I fired this game up. NS1 was pretty challenging to get use to compared to other FPS and it required alot more knowledge (maps and the many area names in each map, what to push and when depending on the alien hive) And people Rage pretty flippin badly if you mess even somthing small up.
Easy to learn core game elements will DEFINATLY make the game an easyer pill to swallow at the get go. Not everyone that plays a internet game is savy enuff to ignore the hateraid that follows the learning curve. (reminds me of old discussions of how Noob became slander instead of an apology or asking for help/understanding)
I dont know how they would get rid of the one way win strategies. The game to me seems pretty dependant on that. Early Fade or HA train usually always spell the end to come (its rare but ive seen tides turn). And usually either of these simply ment that in the early game one side was winning (and got more resources from that) Im interested to see solutions to this :]
<--- Boring
Im not one for cookies myself, but I'll tip my coffee mug your way.
I did the same exact thing recently! And I dont even OWN AN XBOX. I whooped on all my friends and gloated that they should try shooting a skulk. When I go back to a normal FPS; Headshot like crazy haha. So easy in comparison to leaping killer alien bobcats.
I like that the skill gap is that apparent though, it makes the game feel more acomplished. Just hard to find a balance for it.
-off to work now-
<i>additions</i>
What are these magic plants you speak of?
No one claimed that Natural Selection is a social commentary or should maintain 'realism'. However, that doesn't mean we want emo gorges who can belly slide, skulk punching, movement/aim interference from being spit, tasers replacing a knife, and dual wielding heavy armor.
What are these magic plants you speak of?
No one claimed that Natural Selection is a social commentary or should maintain 'realism'. However, that doesn't mean we want emo gorges who can belly slide, skulk punching, movement/aim interference from being spit, tasers replacing a knife, and dual wielding heavy armor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Offence chambers? They always looked like magic alien flowers to me.
NS and indeed, most multiplayer games, almost always have an element of silliness in them, it comes from doing something fun with other people. If you don't put it in people will make their own.
The reason imo why the tide rarely turned in NS1 is due to the win conditions being so closely linked to the alien upgrade path. If the tide turned it was usually in the marines favour as their upgrade path was independent of hive control. Note that "solving" this wouldn't neccessarily make the game better though.
Make it so the alien upgrades don't rely on the hives at all (so you can still spawn onos/fade even if you have only one hive, upgrade abilities aren't affected by a hive loss). How/when the aliens get the upgrade is another issue.
Have more than three hives in a map, so fades/onos/upgrades are still available even if the marines have occupied 1 or 2 hives.
From the sounds of things, it seems NS2 will have this separation of win condition and upgrade path for the aliens, upgrades will be based less on having hives, and more on a players resources and commanders decisions?
Allow me to be more specific:
Look around - mainstream gaming is taking off, it's where the money is. Don't think for a second they couldn't sell milllions if they gave the gorge a sims wardrobe and called it modern warfare. So your opinion short-sights our entire stance as traditional players. It's not about sales, it's not about success - it's about whether or not you sell-out to them. TF2 is a sell-out; adding 'cool addons', making NS 'easier to play' and 'more quick to pick up' will make NS a sell-out too. So no - you can't please them all, but if you care about integrity, you'll please the ones that were with you from the start.
any idea can be play tested to work, but there's merit in drawing caution to gimmicks that shouldn't ever be.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahahahaha, someone "keeping it real". TF2 is not a sell-out. It is a really deep shooter that looks like it is some simple arcade game. I HATED the orginal TF for HL1. It bombed harder than anyone could imagine. But TF2 is great. Great style and it has some depth.
I would be very happy if NS2 gets "mainstream" as in large sales and many people playing. And do not use words like integrity here. Making a mainstream game that appeals many people is in no way less "integrity" than some obscure game no one plays. And what is the issue with the SIMS 3 and MW2? Have not played MW2 yet but it looks really nice.
Also making a game that sells a lot and is great (these things usually fall together and are not exclusive to each other like some obscure videogame alternative hippies think) is a very sensible thing. I mean you got to pay salaries to employees etc. And everyone working in games industry wants to make money off their work.
And about people "being with you from the start"
The initial base amount of players for NS2 will be NS1 players who liked the game. But the game has to appeal to new customers too, and even more than to NS1 players. So making a game that is appealing to completely new players is WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY more important than "keeping it real" with the "veterans".
NS1 did not pay charlie's rent, but NS2 hopefully will.
Just a "veteran" here "keeping it real".