<!--quoteo(post=1741690:date=Nov 30 2009, 06:57 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ Nov 30 2009, 06:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1741690"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would think a compromise is to just list the composite score so that people with high kills score well, but so do people who build rts, destroy rts etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the UWE didn't want to include K/D's then the next best thing would be something like this but broken out into categories. If "enemy killed" points are going into "structures built" points then it kind of defeats the purpose entirely. The purpose, as I see it, is for a commander to be able to look at the scoreboard and know who favors what role and who's good/efficient at the role. If someone has a crappy connection and they spend most of their time defending / repairing / building that's equally important to know as the person who's a crack shot and off solo'ing 4 skulks. One needs mines and a welder and the other needs a shotty and some medpacks.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Well, under the unified resource model the player ultimately gets to pick their role, not the comm. In a situation where communication factors in that decision, the the scoreboard would be mainly irrelevant anyway.
But your point still stands. The scoreboard doesn't simply exist for bragging rights but should provide a breakdown of the accomplishments of a player throughout the game. In NS1, it was deficient at everything except K:D ratio really.
<!--quoteo(post=1741697:date=Nov 30 2009, 12:51 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SentrySteve @ Nov 30 2009, 12:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1741697"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the UWE didn't want to include K/D's then the next best thing would be something like this but broken out into categories. If "enemy killed" points are going into "structures built" points then it kind of defeats the purpose entirely. The purpose, as I see it, is for a commander to be able to look at the scoreboard and know who favors what role and who's good/efficient at the role. If someone has a crappy connection and they spend most of their time defending / repairing / building that's equally important to know as the person who's a crack shot and off solo'ing 4 skulks. One needs mines and a welder and the other needs a shotty and some medpacks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ultimately though this is only worth a damn on pub servers because anywhere with regs or otherwise we already know this rubbish, knowing the person is more familiar than whatever the stupid scoreboard says. And on pub servers I don't think any commander is likely going to give much of a ###### about it.
<!--quoteo(post=1741182:date=Nov 28 2009, 01:13 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Temphage @ Nov 28 2009, 01:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1741182"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And thus, a great argument as to why you should NOT have a scoreboard. Metagaming is not a feature.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While it is true certain forms of gamesmanship are annoying, we also have to be practical about <b>some</b> amount of meta-information that makes the overall game experience <i>work</i>. A death-cam is part of the meta-game, yet in certain games I would consider it an incredibly important feature to alleviate player frustration and a positive step to help new players self-educate.
Similarly, a decent scoreboard system fulfills several worthy purposes:<ul><li>It makes it easier to track who enters and leaves a game over time.</li><li>It provides a convenient list of players on each team.</li><li>It can help determine when teams are being stacked in a public game.</li><li>It helps people estimate out whether a given teammate is experienced or clueless.<ul><li>...Instead of forcing them to find out the hard way when that teammate fails in some key position.</li><li>...Allowing new players to know who they should probably follow.</li><li>...Helping the commander know who might best-use certain scarce equipment. (Watching out for confusing cause and effect.)</li></ul></li></ul>If you always played small games with a bunch of people you already know who all have microphones and are all decently experienced, then it's not a big deal. But the scoreboard--or something very much like it--really needs to exist to facilitate public play.
_____________
So the real question is which <b>specific</b> pieces of information do you want to remove from the scoreboard. For example, class details for the enemy Kharaa team. Or removing K:D-since-join in favor of Running-average-K:D, whatever.
The only thing i want to see on a scoreboard is resource and loadout / class for the own team, and ping globaly. You can display the overall kills the team has made, but no personal info and no sorting-by-kills. It was that way in "that build" without K: D and you still could access it by typing in a console command, so it wasn't <i>exactly</i> gone.
You guys do realise that some people only play online games to get lots of kills... You remove the scoreboard you alienate them.
Sell less games and make less money. Less updates for NS, as the NS team are less well off. Slower release of next Unknown World products...
Generaly as fans of such a small core gaming company who have struggled over the years to supply you with a good game. You should not be stabbing their profit in the eyes for your niggling little grude of a scoreboard and people who only play for KD ratio.
They PAY for the game too not just you so dont begrude them for playing the way they want.
<!--quoteo(post=1742980:date=Dec 8 2009, 10:53 AM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PsympleJester @ Dec 8 2009, 10:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1742980"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You guys do realise that some people only play online games to get lots of kills... You remove the scoreboard you alienate them
They PAY for the game too not just you so dont begrude them for playing the way they want.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So basically UWE should remove the ability for servers to ban people so that nobody is stopped from 'playing the way they want to play'. Maybe I just love crappy shooter mechanics and all I care about is K:D stats. Maybe I like raging people and spend every life beelining for the hive to spawncamp skulks. Maybe I'm just not that great and want to use an aimbot.
I paid for it, I should be able to play the way I want!
Sorry, this is a <b>team game</b>. If you're playing because you just like shooting and having the 'highest score', may I suggest:
<!--quoteo(post=1743001:date=Dec 8 2009, 08:50 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Temphage @ Dec 8 2009, 08:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743001"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry, this is a <b>team game</b>. If you're playing because you just like shooting and having the 'highest score', may I suggest:
You realize that's not really a valid argument? A smart and successful UWE would find a way to incorporate all playstyles, including the players who want to play for kills, into their gameplay. Every player has something to add and in the case of someone who likes getting kills they're clearly best for offense / ambush / rambo.
Just because someone plays for a good K/D does not inherently mean they're 1) a mean person / ###### or 2) not a teamplayer. Jumping to such extremes makes you look like Temphage.
<!--quoteo(post=1743001:date=Dec 8 2009, 01:50 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Temphage @ Dec 8 2009, 01:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743001"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry, this is a <b>team game</b>. If you're playing because you just like shooting and having the 'highest score', may I suggest:
<!--quoteo(post=1742980:date=Dec 8 2009, 10:53 AM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PsympleJester @ Dec 8 2009, 10:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1742980"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Generaly as fans of such a small core gaming company who have struggled over the years to supply you with a good game. <b>You should not be stabbing their profit in the eyes for your niggling little grude of a scoreboard and people who only play for KD ratio.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well done your a true fan of this team. Show your gratitue by asking them to isolate your game to just your way of playing.
And im sorry but if you are comparing cheating to playing just for kills someone needs to take thier crybaby pills.
<!--quoteo(post=1743073:date=Dec 8 2009, 10:19 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SentrySteve @ Dec 8 2009, 10:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743073"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just because someone plays for a good K/D does not inherently mean they're 1) a mean person / ###### or 2) not a teamplayer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And in my infinite experience of over a decade of multiplayer FPS games, it usually does. What kind of person does the sniper class in BF2 attract? The kind of people who just want to get kills. What is the sniper doing <strike>99.999%</strike> 100% of the time? Completely ignoring his team and being utterly oblivious to everything except what's on the other side of his scope. That's what the purpose of EVERY sniper in every game is - not to help the team and even contribute in a meaningful fashion, but to scoop up the clueless retards who just want to get lots of kills. What is the purpose of the sniper in TF2? To kill other snipers. How profound.
Maybe the issue we're arguing is just semantics. There's people who are GOOD at getting kills... versus people who only play FOR kills. Everyone likes getting kills - it raises your pulse, gets the adrenaline going, and hey, you did something! Yay. Everyone gets kills in the course of the game (well, sans commanders I guess). When I think people who play FOR kills, I think of the snipers. I think of the people in Tribes who grab your only dropship to go kamikaze into the enemy base and make an ass of themselves before getting killed, only to respawn and do it again. I think of the guy in Natural Selection who leaps out and grabs one of the shotguns that were just dropped, and then runs all the way across the map doing ****-knows-what while utterly oblivious to anything else.
I don't see how you can claim the lack of K/D on the scoreboard is going to 'alienate' these people, and why we should really bother catering to them. The fact is that they're pretty much going to play any damn game no matter what. There isn't a forum full of these people where they debate which games have ways to mute your entire team and which don't. I won't even go as far to suggest that "playing for K/D" is what they do - rather, they're playing just for KILLS, not for the numbers on the scoreboard. These people are the substance of which pub horror stories are made of. The clueless noobs who simply refuse to learn how to play the game, and just care about the awesome mouseaim + hitscan gun mechanics. I'll bet if I dig through these forums I can find HUNDREDS of complaints about these kinds of people. Commander gets out to do something in base real quick, 'PLAY 4 KILLZ' jumps in, drops himself heavy armor and an HMG. Maybe he can't afford the HMG so he recycles the IPs real quick.
But what would I know, I've never played a team FPS game before. It's not like we don't have 13+ years of consistent behavior in every multiplayer game ever made to base this on.
If you want to make a case for attracting an expanded audience, by all means go ahead and make threads suggesting sniper rifles or quick time events or whatever. But know this, "attracting an expanded audience" has been consistently without fail simply a euphemism for dumbing down the game to cater to a unibrowed mainstream crowd of casual mouthbreathers.
But since I don't want NS2 to stoop to that level, I guess I just hate this game.
<!--quoteo(post=1743083:date=Dec 8 2009, 11:14 PM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PsympleJester @ Dec 8 2009, 11:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743083"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And im sorry but if you are comparing cheating to playing just for kills someone needs to take thier crybaby pills.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry? You're not sorry about that. Why do people say that, that you're "sorry" about it. If you were really sorry you wouldn't have even wasted my time with this. The only thing you have to be sorry about would be the incredible lapse in logical faculties you seem to suffer from, as even after you read and responded to my <u>obviously intentionally ridiculous trollbait statement</u>, it didn't once occur to you that it was an inevitable consequence of your own laughably serious post.
Cheating is a gray area. It always has been. Sure you can say an aimbot is an 'obvious cheat' that, for some reason, people react to like it's the Holocaust. What if I'm using spiked models? Is that a cheat? Sure, why not? What if I delete sprites that are used to provide 'haze' in an area of the map? Is that cheating? What if I claim it was causing 'bad FPS'? What if I delete ambient sounds and amplify footstep sounds, replace walls with darker toned skins, replace my guns with blank models, and replace all player skins with colored ones? Where exactly do you draw the line between cheating and 'playing how I DESERVE TO BE ALLOWED TO PLAY'?
If you took such incredible offense as to my comparison, maybe in the future you shouldn't use such silly language as "They PAY for the game too not just you so dont begrude them for <u>playing the way they want</u>." You also ignored my more serious and apt trollbait statement about removing the ability to ban players, as that right there is giving server admins the power to ensure PAYING PLAYERS CONFORM TO A STANDARD, which is completely against what you said as well. How do you figure it's okay to ban people for spawncamping even if they want to play that way, but NOT okay to simply refuse to lower the game to a level to attract idiots?
<!--quoteo(post=1743088:date=Dec 9 2009, 12:38 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Temphage @ Dec 9 2009, 12:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743088"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->dumbing down the game to cater to a unibrowed mainstream crowd of casual mouthbreathers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lol yes mate because UWE shouldn't be aiming their game at Mainstream casual gamers should they? You do realised casual gamers are like 80% of gamers? You want them to remove things to get less people to play? Please do read what you are typing.
Its asthough you dont realise the people making this game are not your tailor, they are people with families and homes to support. It makes no sence to get rid of something that people expect. No matter how much you rage about behavoir you dont like.
Oh and seriosely stop being mellow dramatic. Its a scoreboard.
Oh and server side rules are seperate. If a server does not want a scoreboard they can remove it. You are comparing banning something with it not existing. Thats like comparing local law to global law. Just because one country in the world bans alchohol should all the alchohol in the entire world be destroyed?
If you dont want a scoreboard so bad make your own server and get rid of it. But the idea of removing it from the game to facilitate the need of 10% of the players because they have dilusions it turns normal players into stat crazed spawn camping hacking baby seal clubbing monsters is mellow dramatic.
<!--quoteo(post=1743091:date=Dec 9 2009, 01:02 AM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PsympleJester @ Dec 9 2009, 01:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743091"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lol yes mate because UWE shouldn't be aiming their game at Mainstream casual gamers should they? You do realised casual gamers are like 80% of gamers? You want them to remove things to get less people to play? Please do read what you are typing.
Its asthough you dont realise the people making this game are not your tailor, they are people with families and homes to support. It makes no sence to get rid of something that people expect. No matter how much you rage about behavoir you dont like.
Oh and seriosely stop being mellow dramatic. Its a scoreboard.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Is this your idea of a joke?
I simply refuse to acknowledge that this post exists. The only thing I can possibly find to say to this is that you are everything that is wrong with gaming.
<!--quoteo(post=1743088:date=Dec 8 2009, 07:38 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Temphage @ Dec 8 2009, 07:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743088"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you want to make a case for attracting an expanded audience, by all means go ahead and make threads suggesting sniper rifles or quick time events or whatever. But know this, "attracting an expanded audience" has been consistently without fail simply a euphemism for dumbing down the game to cater to a unibrowed mainstream crowd of casual mouthbreathers.
But since I don't want NS2 to stoop to that level, I guess I just hate this game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As usual you go into insane defensive mode taking the opposing position to an extreme and mostly ignoring relevant points in the process. Pretty standard, really.
Someone who will take an APC and kamikaze it into another just to get a kill doesn't strike me as someone who cares about their K/D. This thread is about the removal of K/D from the scoreboard. I'm not sure what your side rant, in which you say the player you describe may not even care about their K/D, has to do with this thread.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh and seriosely stop being mellow dramatic. Its a scoreboard.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is Temphage. The mere suggestion of ads in the readyroom incites indescribable rage.
For the people who care about their stats, I refer you over to the stat thread. Our issue, it seems, was an issue of semantics. When you say "playing for K/D" you are describing people who are playing to maximize their stats. When I say "playing for K/D", I mean people who are playing simply to get kills.
I expressed my feelings on this on the first page. I'm fairly indifferent on the scoreboard issue. This entire page of arguing was a response to a certain someone saying we should be worried about "alienating" the people who play for kills and suggesting that therefore we should cater the game towards them. This really has nothing to do with the scoreboard being in the game or not, and more about reasons WHY it should be in the game or not, reasons that are flawed and also dumb.
<!--quoteo(post=1743095:date=Dec 9 2009, 01:09 AM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SentrySteve @ Dec 9 2009, 01:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743095"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is Temphage. The mere suggestion of ads in the readyroom incites indescribable rage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yet amazingly in the end, I was right. Funny thing, that. I'd get used to that though.
Wow, someone got out on the wrong side of bed this morning. You actually wrote 885 words getting angry on the subject of scoreboards and even managed to fit a "you are what is wrong with gaming" in there.
There's no reason to remove the scoreboard. If it doesn't show kills/deaths it is annoying for an awful lot of people. When playing a new game you are unfamiliar with and little things that deviate from the industry standard annoy you then you're less likely to play it again or recommend it to friends. That is at least one reason to have it. It is as simple as that.
The scoreboard is useful to rank yourself against your teammates and enemies. Not including it would be an error in my opinion, especially as Natural Selection's life was greatly lengthened by the competitive aspect of it.
Also, some people don't want teamwork. Anyone who only plays combat, for example. Anyhoo.
There's a somewhat casual-oriented game that has removed kills from anything but the personal scoreboard - Team Fortress 2. It still has a scoreboard, but it doesn't show K/D ratios for other players. It shows how many points people score, which is a better indicator of how much they contribute. A soldier can have dozens of kills and still be outscored by a medic.
This goes to show that having kills and deaths on a global scoreboard is far from necessary. I don't see people in TF2 complaining that they can't see the exact K/D of that other soldier - they'll know that most of his points come from shooting at enemies, just like they'll know that most of a medic's points come from healing.
Removing them from the personal scoreboard, however, is nonsense. Anyone can count how many kills they've made and how many times they've died, so why should they have to? The game might as well do that for them.
<!--quoteo(post=1743139:date=Dec 9 2009, 01:36 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Dec 9 2009, 01:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743139"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's a somewhat casual-oriented game that has removed kills from anything but the personal scoreboard - Team Fortress 2. It still has a scoreboard, but it doesn't show K/D ratios for other players. It shows how many points people score, which is a better indicator of how much they contribute. A soldier can have dozens of kills and still be outscored by a medic.
This goes to show that having kills and deaths on a global scoreboard is far from necessary. I don't see people in TF2 complaining that they can't see the exact K/D of that other soldier - they'll know that most of his points come from shooting at enemies, just like they'll know that most of a medic's points come from healing.
Removing them from the personal scoreboard, however, is nonsense. Anyone can count how many kills they've made and how many times they've died, so why should they have to? The game might as well do that for them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The thing is lolfighter the people dont want the scores so they cant see thier OWN score. Whilst we want scores so we can see OTHER peoples so to judge how to command ec cetra.
So the TF2 score board would actualy upset both parties in this debate.
How so? If your players score low, command defensively. If your players score high, command aggressively. You no longer have to worry about giving the shotguns or HMGs to people with high kill counts because people get their own stuff now anyway.
<!--quoteo(post=1743101:date=Dec 9 2009, 01:29 AM:name=Swift)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Swift @ Dec 9 2009, 01:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743101"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The scoreboard is useful to rank yourself against your teammates and enemies. Not including it would be an error in my opinion, especially as Natural Selection's life was greatly lengthened by the competitive aspect of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wasn't the CAL league of NS shut down in part because of cheating in ranked matches?
Also there's no competitive NS anymore, put still pub servers... the beneficial effects of competition are hilariously overblown and untrue.
I think any person who points to the most recent popular mainstream shooter (Team Fortress 2, Modern Warfare 1 and 2, Halo, Gears of War and so on) and goes "Natural Selection is <insert positive attribute>, if you like <insert perceived negative attribute> play THIS" should automatically forfeit all their creditability in the thread in which they did the digression.
The TF2 system has some merits, but it's primary flaw (shared with many other games) is that is is very sensitive to how <b>long</b> a player has been participating and racking up points.
In games with a "deaths" column, you can at least use it to guage their average effectiveness even in the absence of time information.
But if all you have is name and score and that score doesn't get reset for long periods of time...
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
<!--quoteo(post=1743180:date=Dec 9 2009, 04:22 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Dec 9 2009, 04:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743180"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wasn't the CAL league of NS shut down in part because of cheating in ranked matches?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I never heard of that, and the CAL-NS admin at the time was a clanmate of mine, so...
<!--quoteo(post=1743180:date=Dec 9 2009, 08:22 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Dec 9 2009, 08:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743180"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also there's no competitive NS anymore, put still pub servers...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The ENSL is still alive and European gathers are running regularly too.
<!--quoteo(post=1743191:date=Dec 9 2009, 10:42 PM:name=Terr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Terr @ Dec 9 2009, 10:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743191"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The TF2 system has some merits, but it's primary flaw (shared with many other games) is that is is very sensitive to how <b>long</b> a player has been participating and racking up points.
In games with a "deaths" column, you can at least use it to guage their average effectiveness even in the absence of time information.
But if all you have is name and score and that score doesn't get reset for long periods of time...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's only an issue if it never gets reset. In NS, it got reset after every round.
Comments
If the UWE didn't want to include K/D's then the next best thing would be something like this but broken out into categories. If "enemy killed" points are going into "structures built" points then it kind of defeats the purpose entirely. The purpose, as I see it, is for a commander to be able to look at the scoreboard and know who favors what role and who's good/efficient at the role. If someone has a crappy connection and they spend most of their time defending / repairing / building that's equally important to know as the person who's a crack shot and off solo'ing 4 skulks. One needs mines and a welder and the other needs a shotty and some medpacks.
But your point still stands. The scoreboard doesn't simply exist for bragging rights but should provide a breakdown of the accomplishments of a player throughout the game. In NS1, it was deficient at everything except K:D ratio really.
Ultimately though this is only worth a damn on pub servers because anywhere with regs or otherwise we already know this rubbish, knowing the person is more familiar than whatever the stupid scoreboard says. And on pub servers I don't think any commander is likely going to give much of a ###### about it.
While it is true certain forms of gamesmanship are annoying, we also have to be practical about <b>some</b> amount of meta-information that makes the overall game experience <i>work</i>. A death-cam is part of the meta-game, yet in certain games I would consider it an incredibly important feature to alleviate player frustration and a positive step to help new players self-educate.
Similarly, a decent scoreboard system fulfills several worthy purposes:<ul><li>It makes it easier to track who enters and leaves a game over time.</li><li>It provides a convenient list of players on each team.</li><li>It can help determine when teams are being stacked in a public game.</li><li>It helps people estimate out whether a given teammate is experienced or clueless.<ul><li>...Instead of forcing them to find out the hard way when that teammate fails in some key position.</li><li>...Allowing new players to know who they should probably follow.</li><li>...Helping the commander know who might best-use certain scarce equipment. (Watching out for confusing cause and effect.)</li></ul></li></ul>If you always played small games with a bunch of people you already know who all have microphones and are all decently experienced, then it's not a big deal. But the scoreboard--or something very much like it--really needs to exist to facilitate public play.
_____________
So the real question is which <b>specific</b> pieces of information do you want to remove from the scoreboard. For example, class details for the enemy Kharaa team. Or removing K:D-since-join in favor of Running-average-K:D, whatever.
You can display the overall kills the team has made, but no personal info and no sorting-by-kills. It was that way in "that build" without K: D and you still could access it by typing in a console command, so it wasn't <i>exactly</i> gone.
You remove the scoreboard you alienate them.
Sell less games and make less money.
Less updates for NS, as the NS team are less well off.
Slower release of next Unknown World products...
Generaly as fans of such a small core gaming company who have struggled over the years to supply you with a good game.
You should not be stabbing their profit in the eyes for your niggling little grude of a scoreboard and people who only play for KD ratio.
They PAY for the game too not just you so dont begrude them for playing the way they want.
You remove the scoreboard you alienate them
They PAY for the game too not just you so dont begrude them for playing the way they want.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So basically UWE should remove the ability for servers to ban people so that nobody is stopped from 'playing the way they want to play'. Maybe I just love crappy shooter mechanics and all I care about is K:D stats. Maybe I like raging people and spend every life beelining for the hive to spawncamp skulks. Maybe I'm just not that great and want to use an aimbot.
I paid for it, I should be able to play the way I want!
Sorry, this is a <b>team game</b>. If you're playing because you just like shooting and having the 'highest score', may I suggest:
<img src="http://images.g4tv.com/ImageDb3/165945_S/Box-Art-Face-Off-Call-of-Duty-Modern-Warfare-vs-Call-of-Duty-Modern-Warfare-2.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://images.g4tv.com/ImageDb3/165945_S/Box-Art-Face-Off-Call-of-Duty-Modern-Warfare-vs-Call-of-Duty-Modern-Warfare-2.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You realize that's not really a valid argument? A smart and successful UWE would find a way to incorporate all playstyles, including the players who want to play for kills, into their gameplay. Every player has something to add and in the case of someone who likes getting kills they're clearly best for offense / ambush / rambo.
Just because someone plays for a good K/D does not inherently mean they're 1) a mean person / ###### or 2) not a teamplayer. Jumping to such extremes makes you look like Temphage.
<img src="http://images.g4tv.com/ImageDb3/165945_S/Box-Art-Face-Off-Call-of-Duty-Modern-Warfare-vs-Call-of-Duty-Modern-Warfare-2.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1742980:date=Dec 8 2009, 10:53 AM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PsympleJester @ Dec 8 2009, 10:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1742980"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Generaly as fans of such a small core gaming company who have struggled over the years to supply you with a good game.
<b>You should not be stabbing their profit in the eyes for your niggling little grude of a scoreboard and people who only play for KD ratio.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well done your a true fan of this team.
Show your gratitue by asking them to isolate your game to just your way of playing.
And im sorry but if you are comparing cheating to playing just for kills someone needs to take thier crybaby pills.
And in my infinite experience of over a decade of multiplayer FPS games, it usually does. What kind of person does the sniper class in BF2 attract? The kind of people who just want to get kills. What is the sniper doing <strike>99.999%</strike> 100% of the time? Completely ignoring his team and being utterly oblivious to everything except what's on the other side of his scope. That's what the purpose of EVERY sniper in every game is - not to help the team and even contribute in a meaningful fashion, but to scoop up the clueless retards who just want to get lots of kills. What is the purpose of the sniper in TF2? To kill other snipers. How profound.
Maybe the issue we're arguing is just semantics. There's people who are GOOD at getting kills... versus people who only play FOR kills. Everyone likes getting kills - it raises your pulse, gets the adrenaline going, and hey, you did something! Yay. Everyone gets kills in the course of the game (well, sans commanders I guess). When I think people who play FOR kills, I think of the snipers. I think of the people in Tribes who grab your only dropship to go kamikaze into the enemy base and make an ass of themselves before getting killed, only to respawn and do it again. I think of the guy in Natural Selection who leaps out and grabs one of the shotguns that were just dropped, and then runs all the way across the map doing ****-knows-what while utterly oblivious to anything else.
I don't see how you can claim the lack of K/D on the scoreboard is going to 'alienate' these people, and why we should really bother catering to them. The fact is that they're pretty much going to play any damn game no matter what. There isn't a forum full of these people where they debate which games have ways to mute your entire team and which don't. I won't even go as far to suggest that "playing for K/D" is what they do - rather, they're playing just for KILLS, not for the numbers on the scoreboard. These people are the substance of which pub horror stories are made of. The clueless noobs who simply refuse to learn how to play the game, and just care about the awesome mouseaim + hitscan gun mechanics. I'll bet if I dig through these forums I can find HUNDREDS of complaints about these kinds of people. Commander gets out to do something in base real quick, 'PLAY 4 KILLZ' jumps in, drops himself heavy armor and an HMG. Maybe he can't afford the HMG so he recycles the IPs real quick.
But what would I know, I've never played a team FPS game before. It's not like we don't have 13+ years of consistent behavior in every multiplayer game ever made to base this on.
If you want to make a case for attracting an expanded audience, by all means go ahead and make threads suggesting sniper rifles or quick time events or whatever. But know this, "attracting an expanded audience" has been consistently without fail simply a euphemism for dumbing down the game to cater to a unibrowed mainstream crowd of casual mouthbreathers.
But since I don't want NS2 to stoop to that level, I guess I just hate this game.
<!--quoteo(post=1743083:date=Dec 8 2009, 11:14 PM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PsympleJester @ Dec 8 2009, 11:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743083"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And im sorry but if you are comparing cheating to playing just for kills someone needs to take thier crybaby pills.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry? You're not sorry about that. Why do people say that, that you're "sorry" about it. If you were really sorry you wouldn't have even wasted my time with this. The only thing you have to be sorry about would be the incredible lapse in logical faculties you seem to suffer from, as even after you read and responded to my <u>obviously intentionally ridiculous trollbait statement</u>, it didn't once occur to you that it was an inevitable consequence of your own laughably serious post.
Cheating is a gray area. It always has been. Sure you can say an aimbot is an 'obvious cheat' that, for some reason, people react to like it's the Holocaust. What if I'm using spiked models? Is that a cheat? Sure, why not? What if I delete sprites that are used to provide 'haze' in an area of the map? Is that cheating? What if I claim it was causing 'bad FPS'? What if I delete ambient sounds and amplify footstep sounds, replace walls with darker toned skins, replace my guns with blank models, and replace all player skins with colored ones? Where exactly do you draw the line between cheating and 'playing how I DESERVE TO BE ALLOWED TO PLAY'?
If you took such incredible offense as to my comparison, maybe in the future you shouldn't use such silly language as "They PAY for the game too not just you so dont begrude them for <u>playing the way they want</u>." You also ignored my more serious and apt trollbait statement about removing the ability to ban players, as that right there is giving server admins the power to ensure PAYING PLAYERS CONFORM TO A STANDARD, which is completely against what you said as well. How do you figure it's okay to ban people for spawncamping even if they want to play that way, but NOT okay to simply refuse to lower the game to a level to attract idiots?
Lol yes mate because UWE shouldn't be aiming their game at Mainstream casual gamers should they?
You do realised casual gamers are like 80% of gamers?
You want them to remove things to get less people to play?
Please do read what you are typing.
Its asthough you dont realise the people making this game are not your tailor, they are people with families and homes to support.
It makes no sence to get rid of something that people expect.
No matter how much you rage about behavoir you dont like.
Oh and seriosely stop being mellow dramatic.
Its a scoreboard.
Oh and server side rules are seperate.
If a server does not want a scoreboard they can remove it.
You are comparing banning something with it not existing.
Thats like comparing local law to global law.
Just because one country in the world bans alchohol should all the alchohol in the entire world be destroyed?
If you dont want a scoreboard so bad make your own server and get rid of it.
But the idea of removing it from the game to facilitate the need of 10% of the players because they have dilusions it turns normal players into stat crazed spawn camping hacking baby seal clubbing monsters is mellow dramatic.
You do realised casual gamers are like 80% of gamers?
You want them to remove things to get less people to play?
Please do read what you are typing.
Its asthough you dont realise the people making this game are not your tailor, they are people with families and homes to support.
It makes no sence to get rid of something that people expect.
No matter how much you rage about behavoir you dont like.
Oh and seriosely stop being mellow dramatic.
Its a scoreboard.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is this your idea of a joke?
I simply refuse to acknowledge that this post exists. The only thing I can possibly find to say to this is that you are everything that is wrong with gaming.
But since I don't want NS2 to stoop to that level, I guess I just hate this game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As usual you go into insane defensive mode taking the opposing position to an extreme and mostly ignoring relevant points in the process. Pretty standard, really.
Someone who will take an APC and kamikaze it into another just to get a kill doesn't strike me as someone who cares about their K/D. This thread is about the removal of K/D from the scoreboard. I'm not sure what your side rant, in which you say the player you describe may not even care about their K/D, has to do with this thread.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh and seriosely stop being mellow dramatic.
Its a scoreboard.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is Temphage. The mere suggestion of ads in the readyroom incites indescribable rage.
I expressed my feelings on this on the first page. I'm fairly indifferent on the scoreboard issue. This entire page of arguing was a response to a certain someone saying we should be worried about "alienating" the people who play for kills and suggesting that therefore we should cater the game towards them. This really has nothing to do with the scoreboard being in the game or not, and more about reasons WHY it should be in the game or not, reasons that are flawed and also dumb.
<!--quoteo(post=1743095:date=Dec 9 2009, 01:09 AM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SentrySteve @ Dec 9 2009, 01:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743095"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is Temphage. The mere suggestion of ads in the readyroom incites indescribable rage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yet amazingly in the end, I was right. Funny thing, that. I'd get used to that though.
There's no reason to remove the scoreboard. If it doesn't show kills/deaths it is annoying for an awful lot of people. When playing a new game you are unfamiliar with and little things that deviate from the industry standard annoy you then you're less likely to play it again or recommend it to friends. That is at least one reason to have it. It is as simple as that.
The scoreboard is useful to rank yourself against your teammates and enemies. Not including it would be an error in my opinion, especially as Natural Selection's life was greatly lengthened by the competitive aspect of it.
Also, some people don't want teamwork. Anyone who only plays combat, for example. Anyhoo.
First post in forever. Just my $0.02.
This goes to show that having kills and deaths on a global scoreboard is far from necessary. I don't see people in TF2 complaining that they can't see the exact K/D of that other soldier - they'll know that most of his points come from shooting at enemies, just like they'll know that most of a medic's points come from healing.
Removing them from the personal scoreboard, however, is nonsense. Anyone can count how many kills they've made and how many times they've died, so why should they have to? The game might as well do that for them.
This goes to show that having kills and deaths on a global scoreboard is far from necessary. I don't see people in TF2 complaining that they can't see the exact K/D of that other soldier - they'll know that most of his points come from shooting at enemies, just like they'll know that most of a medic's points come from healing.
Removing them from the personal scoreboard, however, is nonsense. Anyone can count how many kills they've made and how many times they've died, so why should they have to? The game might as well do that for them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The thing is lolfighter the people dont want the scores so they cant see thier OWN score.
Whilst we want scores so we can see OTHER peoples so to judge how to command ec cetra.
So the TF2 score board would actualy upset both parties in this debate.
Wasn't the CAL league of NS shut down in part because of cheating in ranked matches?
Also there's no competitive NS anymore, put still pub servers... the beneficial effects of competition are hilariously overblown and untrue.
In games with a "deaths" column, you can at least use it to guage their average effectiveness even in the absence of time information.
But if all you have is name and score and that score doesn't get reset for long periods of time...
I never heard of that, and the CAL-NS admin at the time was a clanmate of mine, so...
The ENSL is still alive and European gathers are running regularly too.
In games with a "deaths" column, you can at least use it to guage their average effectiveness even in the absence of time information.
But if all you have is name and score and that score doesn't get reset for long periods of time...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's only an issue if it never gets reset. In NS, it got reset after every round.