Black Armour
Renegade.
Join Date: 2003-01-15 Member: 12313Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2003-01-15 Member: 12313Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">tell-tale signs</div>Is black armour really an attempt to garner support? Or is it telling of the gimmicky nature surrounding games today that pander to the casual market? You see it everywhere by different names: unlockables, achievements, upgrades, boosters, gamepoints, tokens, runes, etc - when it comes down to purchasing perks that affect in-game play, the game has stepped a clear boundary into gimmickry.
Why not simply continue the constellation program/icon? The problem is that many simply feign support and are unmotivated by such a minimal return on their deposit. Although most will deny it, many pre-orders are influenced by the prospect of getting "black armour". Had it been a constellation icon offered instead or just simply "eternal gratitude" the numbers would not have been the same. So more numbers is great right? Not if they are gained by marring the game with gimmicks. <!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Give a gorge a hat<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->, and you will see pre-orders sky rocket again, so is this going to be in the SSE ("Super-Special Edition")? I no more want to see random black-clad marines than gorges with hats, if it's simply a display of someone's purchased "wardrobe'. Its as gimmicky as TF2's "hats", "halos" and other such frivolous pandering to the casuals. Reward support, but not at the cost of the game its supporting.
Buts it's not just the whoring of support that is troublesome - like pink skulks in NS, black armour has a very real chance of impacting game play. Given the showcasing of maps and lighting to be overall on the dark side, one can imagine black armour as being a bias in the shadows. How much of a bias? Perhaps negligable, but it doesn't take much to cause jading. We already know of many biases such as ping, rates, interp, gamma, hitboxes, sparking, etc. Some are compensated for, others cannot be, and some have major impact (like the last). The closest example of how Black Armour may affect visibility is likely gamma. Arguably, anyone with skill can play at any gamma level, yet because high gamma offered a tangible advantage and was the cause of much flamewar and jading the devs moved to limit its value. I can only see Black Armour becoming another such biasing factor, and in the very least we'll only see another grieving excuse, something along the lines of "gg camo"
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Here's a challenge to the devs<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->: remove black armour, or make it removable client-side so we do not have to see it. Watch how many of your so-called "supporters" complain of being robbed - of what? their choice to show support? The problem is you haven't <i>asked</i> for support, you've sold it; at the price of subjecting your game to cheap gimmickry.
Why not simply continue the constellation program/icon? The problem is that many simply feign support and are unmotivated by such a minimal return on their deposit. Although most will deny it, many pre-orders are influenced by the prospect of getting "black armour". Had it been a constellation icon offered instead or just simply "eternal gratitude" the numbers would not have been the same. So more numbers is great right? Not if they are gained by marring the game with gimmicks. <!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Give a gorge a hat<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->, and you will see pre-orders sky rocket again, so is this going to be in the SSE ("Super-Special Edition")? I no more want to see random black-clad marines than gorges with hats, if it's simply a display of someone's purchased "wardrobe'. Its as gimmicky as TF2's "hats", "halos" and other such frivolous pandering to the casuals. Reward support, but not at the cost of the game its supporting.
Buts it's not just the whoring of support that is troublesome - like pink skulks in NS, black armour has a very real chance of impacting game play. Given the showcasing of maps and lighting to be overall on the dark side, one can imagine black armour as being a bias in the shadows. How much of a bias? Perhaps negligable, but it doesn't take much to cause jading. We already know of many biases such as ping, rates, interp, gamma, hitboxes, sparking, etc. Some are compensated for, others cannot be, and some have major impact (like the last). The closest example of how Black Armour may affect visibility is likely gamma. Arguably, anyone with skill can play at any gamma level, yet because high gamma offered a tangible advantage and was the cause of much flamewar and jading the devs moved to limit its value. I can only see Black Armour becoming another such biasing factor, and in the very least we'll only see another grieving excuse, something along the lines of "gg camo"
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Here's a challenge to the devs<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->: remove black armour, or make it removable client-side so we do not have to see it. Watch how many of your so-called "supporters" complain of being robbed - of what? their choice to show support? The problem is you haven't <i>asked</i> for support, you've sold it; at the price of subjecting your game to cheap gimmickry.
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Got SE for alpha, not for black armor.
So yeah, I give a #### about the black armor and don't care about the delayed alpha either. I only wish the editor would work for me as promised by the system req. , but so far each weekly update let me down.
I think you have a point though that black armor might affect gameplay.
But they can still add shiny little lights and other stuff to the black armor to level the playing field.
I don't agree though that the black armor encouraged more ppl to pre-order the SE, especially compared to the promissed access to the alpha version, which seems far more appealing.
special armour or not i was always going to get SE
Also, gammacheating through external tools ("powerstripping") is still possible, so we won't have dark corners anyway.
(Thanks, you morronic arses who stripped. you ruined the game.)
It's hard to take your post seriously after reading this. You're stating that the majority of us (Who bought for other reasons than black armour) are liars, it's a pretty blank opinion and one which clearly shows you won't listen to the contrary, as we just 'deny it'. Not a good way to get your opinion across, which it very much is as there's no evidence to back up your claims.
<!--quoteo(post=1744265:date=Dec 19 2009, 06:32 AM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Dec 19 2009, 06:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1744265"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Buts it's not just the whoring of support that is troublesome - like pink skulks in NS, black armour has a very real chance of impacting game play. Given the showcasing of maps and lighting to be overall on the dark side, one can imagine black armour as being a bias in the shadows. How much of a bias? Perhaps negligable, but it doesn't take much to cause jading. We already know of many biases such as ping, rates, interp, gamma, hitboxes, sparking, etc. Some are compensated for, others cannot be, and some have major impact (like the last). The closest example of how Black Armour may affect visibility is likely gamma. Arguably, anyone with skill can play at any gamma level, yet because high gamma offered a tangible advantage and was the cause of much flamewar and jading the devs moved to limit its value. I can only see Black Armour becoming another such biasing factor, and in the very least we'll only see another grieving excuse, something along the lines of "gg camo"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good point, except as we can clearly see <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2009/9/first_peek_at_the_new_frontiersman" target="_blank">here</a>, marine armour has various blue lights which will clearly show up in dark places. We've also only seen user made maps with limited light options at the moment, expect the maps closer to release to have very balanced lighting, especially when all the lighting technology is in place.
<!--quoteo(post=1744265:date=Dec 19 2009, 06:32 AM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Dec 19 2009, 06:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1744265"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Here's a challenge to the devs<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->: remove black armour, or make it removable client-side so we do not have to see it. Watch how many of your so-called "supporters" complain of being robbed - of what? their choice to show support? The problem is you haven't <i>asked</i> for support, you've sold it; at the price of subjecting your game to cheap gimmickry.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They can't remove it. We've all paid for it, most of us not because of that but still, removing that feature wouldn't inspire much confidence in UWE's ability to deliver it's product. Sure, it's apart of what we paid for, we may not care about it now but we'd definitely care if it was taken from us, we certainly would feel robbed. I wouldn't mind if it was toggable or removable client side but that's just my opinion.
Because of the monumental amount of special edition pre orders, the NS2 we're getting is a lot more feature packed than the NS2 they were going to release. I think black amoured marines are a small price to pay for that, no pun intended.
Cause this discussion would seem even more artificial then it currently does, if it's not important in one of the most played league games.
However, a toggle option for green/black armour would be nice.
* Alpha testing
* Access to the editor
* Showing support, as a thank you for the original game/mod
I, personally, only wanted to show my support and had no idea about black armor until I had already pre-ordered. The early access to the editor was simply a pleasant surprise.
You see, this is no ordinary company and no ordinary production process. This is UWE taking a huge leap of faith and trying out something fairly new - developing WITH the community. By sharing with us, everything they do, they are taking a risk. Something that seems to be paying off for them, atleast by what fans seem to think.
I wanted to be a part of this, I want them to succeed because I liked their first product and I like their innovation and good will. This is why I pre-ordered.
I am sorry that you seem to think we are all out to get black armor and cannot see past gimmiky features. I am also sorry that you seem to believe that you can speak for me. Because you cannot.
I have my reasons for doing what I do. UWE has theirs. Perhaps if you spent more time trying to figure out your own reasons and wishes, you would be a happier person, spending less time looking for flaws and more time being a contributive member of the community.
Your challenge will be ignored, and I think you're personally insulting both the developers - by telling them to both trick their customers and that they already have by having black armour give any in-game advantage for monetary gain - and the community as a whole - by speaking as if you represent the whole of it while telling them they pre-ordered the game for abhorrent reasons.
All in all, your post is an unsubstantiated personal opinion claimed as fact and a direct (even if unwanted) insult to everyone reading it, and as such it can and will bring nothing more than misunderstanding and flames.
---
I don't care for black armour, even though black is cool by default. The other 20$ of my spending is support for the development team and early access to the best set of tools I've ever laid my hands on.
I won't deny the fact that black armor sounds cool but nothin more. I believe those who bought SE would have bought it without the black armor. It is just a gesture to make people happy don't dramatize.
-Turning your own black armor on or off (If you don't want to stand out in a server for example.)
-Turning off displaying black armor on your client, so that you don't see any difference. (If your this guy and don't want to see any differences)
-Server side setting to disable black armor for competitive games (or any sever that doesn't like the armor)
I think these are reasonable steps that allow for great flexibility.
If its that big of a ###### problem for you (Original Poster.)
Open a simple modeling program and apply the texture of the default armour over the Special Edition armour and everyone will once again be in the default armour.
I pre-ordered for the Tool Set and alpha.
Im sure most people did like wise.
I wish people would stop ###### about not wanting skills to be recorded and not wanting people to have black armour (MINOR advantages) in a game that has yet to come out.
Next people will be complaining that NS2 is imba before its even released.
And then there's their large chest lights, the glowing blue lights on their backs, the glowing blue holographic visors over their faces that they are going to get, not to mention the GREEN weapons they are still going to be holding. The black armor is just going to look cool and special, not turn the marine into a super ninja.
--Cory
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When is that DLC coming out? :P
Strange. That's what my black coat does.
But thanks for clearing things up! Would it be too much to ask if you specifically playtested it for visibility as well?
<!--quoteo(post=1744279:date=Dec 19 2009, 06:06 AM:name=Fortune)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fortune @ Dec 19 2009, 06:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1744279"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's hard to take your post seriously after reading this. You're stating that the majority of us (Who bought for other reasons than black armour) are liars
<b>They can't remove it. We've all paid for it</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's hard to take your post seriously after you confuse the difference between <i>many</i> and <i>most</i>, and then go on to confirm my initial predictions that some people who buy SE think they are "owed" something for showing support.
<!--quoteo(post=1744290:date=Dec 19 2009, 09:51 AM:name=Razagal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Razagal @ Dec 19 2009, 09:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1744290"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are specific models enforced in competitive CS? (serious question, I don't know)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, very much for NS anyways, as I mention <b>pink skulks</b> was a tactic in the early days of competitive NS until they enforced model consistency and mandatory screenshot submission.
<!--quoteo(post=1744294:date=Dec 19 2009, 09:57 AM:name=DarkMantiZ)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DarkMantiZ @ Dec 19 2009, 09:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1744294"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What you seem to be forgetting is that so far, this community is mainly built up of dedicated fans and players of the original game. I doubt the majority of the pre-orders were made because of any "gimmicky" black armor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, many vs. most. It's great to see you're one of us, and if what you say is true then a toggleable solution should not be a problem.
<!--quoteo(post=1744298:date=Dec 19 2009, 10:20 AM:name=Draco_2k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Draco_2k @ Dec 19 2009, 10:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1744298"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What you're really arguing for is for one type of gimmick (icons) to be implemented over another (armour) without any substance to back up your claims<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Quite simply, icons are not attached to models and do not exist anywhere outside of the scoreboard, thus they have no impact on gameplay. As for the rest of your post, kindly please leave your bait in a tackle box.
<!--quoteo(post=1744333:date=Dec 19 2009, 01:37 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Dec 19 2009, 01:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1744333"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've seen several posts in several threads now about this black armor business, and it seems like people are imagining that we are taking the current marine and dumping a bucket of black, matte paint all over them. In that case, yes, it might effect gameplay. However, that is not how it is being handled. Just because a surface's local color is black, it doesn't mean it can't still pick up and reflect a lot of light. And, don't forget, there are plenty of areas where the lighter colored cloth breaks up the armor sections, as well as the many of the light grey metallic metal paneled areas on the armor that are going to be maintained.
And then there's their large chest lights, the glowing blue lights on their backs, the glowing blue holographic visors over their faces that they are going to get, not to mention the GREEN weapons they are still going to be holding. The black armor is just going to look cool and special, not turn the marine into a super ninja.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's fine, so long as the dev team is okay with sacrificing in-game equality (no matter how little) to give a pat on the back to those people who (as they claim here) do not want or need it anyways. As the responses would indicate, the only people wanting black armour are those who bought SE <i>for</i> it. These are the type of people I fear Black Armour is being targeted towards for all the wrong reasons.
Gameplay aside, from a gimmick standpoint, how does this differ from TF2 giving "hats" to those who pre-ordered L4D2?
Saying that everyone who bought it for the black armour must be some casual CoD-playing retard is ridiculous. Give me a break.
Might I add to this useless discussion that a green armor can be just as much of a camouflage as black. So should we also say "Screw you none SE buyers for being camouflaged like that?". Heck, should we perhaps force the marine to go out on the battlefield without armor at all!
Hey, come to think of it, noone has even seen the black armor skin yet... Go figure....
In other words... There is absolutely no argument here, so would you naysayers kindly go and have a cow already :P
I would even be happy if we black overpowered armor marines would get a pink helmet, so you greens can say "haha we won" ::D
My old friend False Dichotomy, corrupter of logic...
No one is suggesting anyone be "screwed", merely that an option be given to those of us who are gaming purists / competitive community and do not wish to see gimmicks during gameplay. It's nothing new, this has existed since the days of "forced models" in Quake.
Besides how much of a camouflage is an armored suit with lots of bright lights on it anyways... TSA might have made a booboo... I mean same goes for weapon tracers... They work both ways! (in his case the lights do. Well one way actually, which happens to be the wrong way D: )