<!--quoteo(post=1757163:date=Mar 5 2010, 04:48 AM:name=Rizz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rizz @ Mar 5 2010, 04:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757163"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If this topic weren't written by a member for members to read, the outcome would be different.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the devs think and select what to release very carefully not to dull image of NS2 while members do not. Also there are those who believe blindly in UWE and do not give a second thought for their comments for example how it would effect gameplay or how would people in public react to it.
<!--quoteo(post=1757130:date=Mar 4 2010, 11:57 PM:name=friedricekid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (friedricekid @ Mar 4 2010, 11:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757130"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->why is it fun to triumph over imaginary aliens or imaginary future space marines in an imaginary spaceship with people you don't even know doing random tasks like welding, biting, and commanding anyway?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, for one thing the Aliens are controlled by REAL people doing their best to thwart your efforts. Thus, you have to use REAL TEAMWORK (which includes tasks like welding) to win the game.
Wait, let me repeat that: Real people (that you do not even know) doing real teamwork!
I dislike the idea of achievements, I will attempt to elaborate a little because... I am bored. Everything I am about to say has probably been said before.
I feel, personally, that whenever I am playing for an achievement I am focusing less on the actual game. I.e. I don't care if my team is loosing, as long as I am racking in kills with my bonesaw. Or healing stuff, or whatever. By extension, I assume other players are less focused on the game while they are working on their achievements. You might argue that a gorge healing is a gorge healing. Whether he is healing in order to heal 50000 hp or because his team needs him to heal doesn't matter. But to me, it does. It matters a lot. In my experience, the gorge healing because his team needs him to heal is more engaged in the game than his achievement counterpart. He is following the flow of the battles, he is paying attention to his team, he is more likely to heal the right thing at the right time - this includes stopping the constant health spray to do something that will benefit the team more.
My point here is that no matter how well you align your achievements towards teamplay, they will scatter the focus of players while they are being done. In doing so, they hurt teamplay.
In addition, I don't think achievements adds much. They might conceivably be used to teach some elements of the game mechanics, some L4D achievements works well in this respect, but there are other ways to do this that doesn't involve people ignoring (or focusing less on) teams needs. Achievements doesn't add depth to the game. They don't add contents. At best, they give you additional things 'to do'.
As for 'everyone else does it', 'everyone expects it', and 'NS2 won't sell as many copies if you don't', I don't care. I don't need another generic sci-fi shooter.
<!--quoteo(post=1757163:date=Mar 5 2010, 01:48 AM:name=Rizz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rizz @ Mar 5 2010, 01:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757163"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I for one agree with the original poster and think that achievements would give this game replay value. It is what achievements do, even when you get bored with a game, you can always replay it for achievements or what not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I whole-heartedly disagree. No added value, and all the achievements in the world wouldn't warrant a replay if the core game is boring.
<!--quoteo(post=1757163:date=Mar 5 2010, 03:48 AM:name=Rizz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rizz @ Mar 5 2010, 03:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757163"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, infact, if this topic were written by an official NS2 game developer stating that they were going to implement achievements, everyone would react differently.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not necessarily. Per se, how much flak the Taser got...
<!--quoteo(post=1757163:date=Mar 5 2010, 03:48 AM:name=Rizz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rizz @ Mar 5 2010, 03:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757163"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What happens when a good suggestion like this doesn't get implemented because the game developers listened to a small community which supports a big project? All I can assume is that the game wouldn't be the same as if it were implemented. A lot of these type of suggestions really require a bigger community decision than just the hard-core NS members that already reside here, granted that they should be the ones that shape the future for the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I gather UW have already figured this out, at least I don't think they adhere to forums like the gospel. Listening to the vocal minority will always result in a disaster, and listening to majority... Will actually bear the same results.
Personally, I dread to think what NS2 would be if it followed the wishes of any self-proclaimed "pros" as much as I dread to think of it having performance-enhancing paid DLC.
<!--quoteo(post=1757164:date=Mar 5 2010, 04:06 AM:name=Triggerman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Triggerman @ Mar 5 2010, 04:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757164"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To say achievements have no positive outcome is just ignoring facts, it's a well established thing in gaming and probably will stay like that. Gives some more replayability for the sake of... nothing I guess, but it's like that shiny penny as Draco put it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Gotta catch 'em all!
But yeah, achievements, to me, only make sense when they encourage fun gameplay. Like that ever-present Gnome Quest, or playing on harder setting, or doing something otherwise interesting... In Mutli-Player it's a bit more complex because fun things for you can turn out to be not so fun for your teammates, and... Actually I that's about the culprit of this.
<!--quoteo(post=1757168:date=Mar 5 2010, 04:15 AM:name=Private)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Private @ Mar 5 2010, 04:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757168"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wait, let me repeat that: Real people (that you do not even know) doing real teamwork!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I have positively no idea how it makes the game any more real. What are you trying to say here?..
<!--quoteo(post=1757168:date=Mar 5 2010, 04:15 AM:name=Private)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Private @ Mar 5 2010, 04:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757168"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My point here is that no matter how well you align your achievements towards teamplay, they will scatter the focus of players while they are being done. In doing so, they hurt teamplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good point. Then what needs be done when implementing achievements is to consider and playtest any such scenarios... And if you can't think of any, don't do achievements. Or maybe do the boring ones, "Run 1,000,000 miles" or whatever... For whatever reason... God I hate those.
<!--quoteo(post=1757168:date=Mar 5 2010, 04:15 AM:name=Private)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Private @ Mar 5 2010, 04:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757168"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They don't add contents. At best, they give you additional things 'to do'.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That'd be gameplay. Unfortunately usually boring, but still gameplay.
<!--quoteo(post=1757163:date=Mar 4 2010, 07:48 PM:name=Rizz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rizz @ Mar 4 2010, 07:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757163"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If this topic weren't written by a member for members to read, the outcome would be different. I always find it disgusting how members react to another members thread. Most members will read another members thread/post with negativity and criticism (like you are with this post you're reading, you're not open minded) and react that way. No, infact, if this topic were written by an official NS2 game developer stating that they were going to implement achievements, everyone would react differently.
"Oh what a great idea!" "What achievements do you think you'll consider" "I have a few suggestions" blah blah blah
I for one agree with the original poster and think that achievements would give this game replay value. It is what achievements do, even when you get bored with a game, you can always replay it for achievements or what not. What happens when a good suggestion like this doesn't get implemented because the game developers listened to a small community which supports a big project? All I can assume is that the game wouldn't be the same as if it were implemented. A lot of these type of suggestions really require a bigger community decision than just the hard-core NS members that already reside here, granted that they should be the ones that shape the future for the game. However, I believe this game will explode when it comes out and it'll encounter non-NS played people. You then will get people who want achievements or some other stuff that people in the current community (now) think is a bad idea. Sniper Rifle anyone? Battle Rifle?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1) If the devs were posting this you'd best believe there'd be just as much outrage. The only thing that the poster not being a dev changes is that the replies may contain more condescension and less coming to terms.
2) This is an internet forum. If you're not reading a post so you can pick it apart later and look superior you're not doing it right.
3) If you're tired of playing NS and are simply replaying to gather some silly assortment of achievements then I think I speak for everyone when I say GTFO my server. We're too busy actually playing and liking the game for what it is.
4) If you can't see the merits behind discouraging stupid posts and why silly, poorly-thought-out ideas need to be publicly chastised, then please refrain from posting any.
As for the "non-NS people who want achievements", we'll deal with them accordingly here.
<!--quoteo(post=1757167:date=Mar 4 2010, 05:14 PM:name=-Diesel-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (-Diesel- @ Mar 4 2010, 05:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757167"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Achievements are for games like TF2 and call of doodie.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Achievements are for games hundreds of people have played every single day for the past few years and will continue to be played for years to come?
I'd only agree with this if the achievements were completely teamplay based. Anything that encourages solo behaviour, like someone mentioned before - "knife an onos", would just be bad for gameplay, and could potentially lose rounds.
Achievements such as "<i>Win a match (at least 7v7) in under 10 minutes</i>", "<i>Successfully defend an attacked resource node</i>", "<i>Weld an additional 5000 armor on your teammates in a single round</i>" ----- i.e. anything that would encourage additional teamwork would be brilliant imo.
I think they would be a fine addition, and some players out there love them (another incentive to preorder/buy) but in the big picture, pretty low on the totem pole at the moment. Maybe something to consider post-release.
<!--quoteo(post=1757173:date=Mar 4 2010, 08:44 PM:name=Popenator)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Popenator @ Mar 4 2010, 08:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757173"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Renegade: What games do you currently play?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Although here's not the place to discuss it, I don't play much of anything lately. The last multilayer game I played seriously was Battlefield 2, the best, probably NS.
Following your line of questioning: yes, I may still play a game regardless of achievements or unlocks but like my brief foray into L4D, I find it cultivates a certain type of playerbase in which one finds themselves surrounded by an overwhelming number of permanent noobs, griefers, and over all incompetent players. This increases with the degree to which the game can be labeled "casual" (compare players of CS 1.6 & NS to BF2 to L4D to TF2).
<!--quoteo(post=1757176:date=Mar 4 2010, 09:05 PM:name=bhaz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bhaz @ Mar 4 2010, 09:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757176"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Achievements such as "<i>Win a match (at least 7v7) in under 10 minutes</i>", "<i>Successfully defend an attacked resource node</i>", "<i>Weld an additional 5000 armor on your teammates in a single round</i>" ----- i.e. anything that would encourage additional teamwork would be brilliant imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This displays the rampant naivety or disregard for deeper thought put into the typical pro-achievement example. It should take no longer than 5 seconds to realize your suggestions will lead to a much higher incident of 1) shotgun rushes 2) RT camping 3) Weld-monkeying
It's not as simple as "anything that increases teamwork", and it's mildly insulting to see such drivel being posted when some attempt to spend time formulating their arguments while others afford not more than five seconds of thought.
I can predict what the more intelligent may attempt as a pro-achievement example (no surprise a good example still has yet to be given): Something that is awarded for X behaviour but only when Y and not if Z in order to make sure X is not abused.
X, Y, Z will progressively approach ideals and values that supposedly encourage good gameplay; however as I predict, the day will come when finally the 'ultimate achievement' is crafted and in utter embarrassment the crafters shall read back its description and realize that it sounds more or less like a tutorial of how to play NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=1757189:date=Mar 4 2010, 09:11 PM:name=Enjoy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Enjoy @ Mar 4 2010, 09:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757189"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Okay so I don't log in to post much... But For this I just had too. And I vote NO BLOODY FREEKIN achievements in ns2 or refund! Thank you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your threats are simply ridiculous, I hate to break it to you, but them including achievements will cause NS2 to sell hundreds more copies, pretty much negating any whining you are bringing to the table. The moral is UWE will decide what they want to do based on how they feel and how they want to grow their company and their product.
Now, you see, you oppose "un-good achievements"; don't take that as opposing the concept of an achievement.
As for me, I'd love to see the following: [Marines] <b>Physician Favorite</b> Obtain 100 Med Packs <b>Sgt. Johnson</b> Kill 4 or more Kharaa in a single life <b>Popenator</b> Kill 0 or less Kharaa in a single life
[Kharaa] <b>Discovery Channel</b> Get healed by a Gorge <b>Evolution</b> Become an Onos <b>Glutton</b> Kill 4 or more Marines in a single life
[Misc] <b>Newb in charge</b> Command at least 3 players for 5 minutes in a single round with less than 40% of the vote committed against you at any time.
Edit: If they add achievements, I'll buy a third copy of the game to negate yours. I love silly achievements that much. There is also proof that more people play TF2 when new achievements are added, so my investment to replace the money lost would be a gain in the long run: I'LL ACTUALLY HAVE PEOPLE TO PLAY THE GAME WITH.
I made a TF2 rant post a while back, so a bit of what I said applies here.
One of reasons why I dislike TF2(and prefer TFC over TF2) are the achievements.
Achievements(in my experience in BF2 and TF2):
1. Usually promotes less teamwork(due to players trying to get achievements).
Example 1(if NS2 had similar to TF2 achievements): Instead of an Onos trying to take down marine base, he's too busy trying to get a kill with his "Taunt Attack"(which launches a hadoken attack, but it takes 5 seconds to charge and only hits one marine near the Onos).
Of course NS2 achievements don't have to be like that.
Example 2(In Battlefield 2. Example of "promotes less teamwork due to achievements"): a lot of people create a squad even though there are 5-7 other squads(with few players in them). Rather than just join an existing squad(and get the benefits of being able to spawn at the squad leader's location), a lot of people would rather just create a squad, even if there are 5-7 other empty(empty except for Squad Leader) squads created already.
Know why? Well, you can unlock a few ribbons and/or medals by having 10, 25, and then 100 squad leader hours respectively.
Though you do need hours as Squad Members too, but once people are done accumulating their 100 hours as Squad Member, they're going for Squad Leader(even if it doesn't help their team).
2. As noted above, it makes people like me try to unlock them all when I'd rather play the game for fun. Rather than play the game for what it is, it changes the game to be an "unlock them alll" type of game.
<b>Now achievements can work in NS2 but if they do silly achievements like knife 18 skulks; then it's going to detract from the gameplay.</b>
People would be too busy trying to get their expert knife badge rather than playing the game for fun.
Then you'd have idle servers or achievement servers(TF2 is plagued with them, but not that I mind because I can unlock everything easily) or knife/pistol only servers(BF2).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But achievements in games like L4D and <b>TF2 do encourage higher skilled gameplay for example. They encourage you to try skills that you might not even think of</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not sure about L4D but I disagree with TF2:
1. There are more <screw you team> achievements than <okay guys, I'll help you win> achievements. Examples include: <assist in really specific tasks> . While the "specific task" in question can help the team sometimes, the problem is there are also more times when doing something else helps the team more.
Example: Assist in burning five enemies with a single ÃœberCharge on a Pyro.
For most player medics, rather than the medic helping the player or class who is doing the best, the medic is just going to look for the pyro to assist, even if the pyro isn't doing good or if someone else is doing better(and could use the help).
Why? Well that's because that's the fastest/easiest way to unlock that achievement. Sure you can just help whoever is contributing (or needs help) the most, but odds are you won't unlock all your achievements as fast as (for example of the above achievement) just going for that pyro and sticking with the pyro all game.
2. <b>Also when TFC was popular, most people played the game to the best of their ability without any "incentives" like achievements.
They played to win but also played to have fun.
Rocket jumps, conc jumping(medic, scouts), etc.
TFC had no achievements but players still played to the best of their ability to help their team and win.</b>
<b>Summary:</b> Achievements(ones that require a specific task) should not be in NS2. At the most, they should only do a rank/level point system(without the achievements, just levels/points). Now I know people are going to respond with <i>"UWE should cater to more players, who are used to ranks or achievements"</i>, true but they shouldn't do anything that might detract from the gameplay(stuff like making players obtain a Taunt Attack kill to unlock <x achievement> for example).
They can just track stats like in BF series, just anything but <insert do specific, teamwork damaging, tasks here> achievements.
Edit: I'm not totally against achievements like badges and stuff, I'm just against the really specific ones like the TF2 achievements. Also I guess a lot of my post only applies to TF2 actually, I don't mind achievements that much in BF2(since for the most part, they aren't so bad). So achievements like BF2 = okay, don't mind so much. Achievements like TF2 = don't want.
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
I didn't read quite everything, but the issues you have with BF and TF2 seem to be summed up with this:
Achievements that are a means to unlock STUFF is detrimental to good teamplay.
The Achievements in TF2 were never a problem before players were required to do them to unlock weapons. I find it to be a very great addition to a game when they serve no ulterior purpose.
<!--quoteo(post=1757201:date=Mar 4 2010, 10:35 PM:name=Popenator)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Popenator @ Mar 4 2010, 10:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757201"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now, you see, you oppose "un-good achievements"; don't take that as opposing the concept of an achievement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There's as many good achievements as there are true scotsmen. In otherwords: none, "good achievement" is an oxymoron. I'll attempt to humour your examples though:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[Marines] <b>Physician Favorite</b> Obtain 100 Med Packs <b>Sgt. Johnson</b> Kill 4 or more Kharaa in a single life <b>Popenator</b> Kill 0 or less Kharaa in a single life<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1) Med-request spamming even moreso than now, intentional fall damage, achievement-back-scratching "you go comm drop me 100, then I'll go comm and do the same. Sure we'll ruin the game, but hey we'z gettin' our chevements yo" 2) Most pub nubs are already ratio ######s, let's add more incentive: Comm: "Everyone phase and rush the hive now, it's almost down!" Rine: "Negative comm, I just killed 3 skulks - I'm not gonna suicide rush till I get my chevement yo!" 3) facetious I hope... wouldn't want to be on a rine team attempting this achievement.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[Kharaa] <b>Discovery Channel</b> Get healed by a Gorge <b>Evolution</b> Become an Onos <b>Glutton</b> Kill 4 or more Marines in a single life<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1) as absurd as a "start game" achievement 2) again, both absurd and do we really need more onos res######s? 3) see #3 from last set
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[Misc] <b>Newb in charge</b> Command at least 3 players for 5 minutes in a single round with less than 40% of the vote committed against you at any time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> a) useless and b) "oh hai I has my chevement now, eject, bye"
Already you can see my predictions coming true: Command X players for Y minutes with Z. How long before someone finally suggests this Achievement: "Spawn, listen to commander, play as a team for at least as long as it is required to win by killing the enemies base with 6 or more players via skill, teamwork and upgrades provided by built resnodes at techpoints".
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Edit: If they add achievements, I'll buy a third copy of the game to negate yours. I love silly achievements that much. There is also proof that more people play TF2 when new achievements are added, so my investment to replace the money lost would be a gain in the long run: I'LL ACTUALLY HAVE PEOPLE TO PLAY THE GAME WITH.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And if they don't I'll ensure I recommend the game to friends which will more than compensate your three copies. Silly achievements and numbers aside, if you think sales or large numbers is the final determiner for quality then you're right up there with Bobby Kotick, or more justly, right <i>down</i> there.
Thanks for the sum up Psyke! saved me the time of reading unnecessarily
How about we put it this way... if someone is dumb enough or such a renegade to put his team at risk of loosing because of he goes off on his own to fulfill his own goal is the type of player that wouldn't be much of a team player to begin with. If this player does the achievements while not jeopardizing the team's chances or during typical battles(as they should be) it is a non-problem.
Achievements should be hidden so players wouldn't know what to do to achieve them. They would just get it after doing a specific task they didnt know was an achievement.
The amount of backlash against the idea of achievements in games in this thread is mind boggling.
The very fact that people are quoting the TF2 achievements seems to me that no one complaining about the achievement farmers in TF2 has any kind of contact with the vast majority of the community. While I wont deny that TF2 does have plenty of people who play to gain the achievements, it is absurd to say that there is any kind of majority of the player base that plays in this manner.
Whats more is the fact that there seems to be an automatic assumption that the inclusion of achievements in some way makes the vast majority of the people who play a game become solely focused on those achievements. I don't know about you all, but I don't play any of my games to gain some obscure achievement. However, the inclusion of achievements like "Get X kills in Y form/weapon/etc" does not do anything to harm the flow or teamwork of the game (especially so if those achievements are over a 'lifetime'). The very idea that achievements in some way detract from the gameplay of a game seems to me to be absurd and I've yet to see a post in this thread that actually PROVES that achievements do anything but provide some eye candy for the vast majority.
<!--quoteo(post=1757223:date=Mar 4 2010, 11:36 PM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Mar 4 2010, 11:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757223"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And if they don't I'll ensure I recommend the game to friends which will more than compensate your three copies. Silly achievements and numbers aside, if you think sales or large numbers is the final determiner for quality then you're right up there with Bobby Kotick, or more justly, right <i>down</i> there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It may not be the final determiner for quality. It will very likely be the determiner as to whether there's an NS3.
As a side note, I doubt you have enough friends to compensate for what achievements can bring in.
However, I still don't understand the argument against them. I mean, you've already indicated you're in favor of a tutorial, however making a good tutorial is a helluva lot harder than making a bunch of achievements and letting people tutor themselves in the live game -- for starters, you don't need to generate any tutorial AI. If it's because you're afraid it'll encourage people to be ######s, I'm afraid that's gonna happen anyway, and if the achievements are set up correctly, at least those who are being ######s will be doing something marginally useful for the team rather than simply griefing it. If it's because you're an elitist who simply doesn't want to play with nubs who might be having fun getting their achievements, I'm sure it'd be pretty damned easy to set up a server with achievement gain shut off.
In fact, that strikes me as the best answer yet. Make whether your actions on a server count toward achievements something that can be toggled at the server level. That way, you can go play your ultra-leet devoted game, and the rest of us can have fun trying to get achievements while playing.
<!--quoteo(post=1757238:date=Mar 5 2010, 03:06 AM:name=Kwil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kwil @ Mar 5 2010, 03:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757238"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It will very likely be the determiner as to whether there's an NS3.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->If it's not obvious yet, I'd prefer there be no NS3 if NS2 becomes a casual fest simply to feed sales. Scruples are hard to find in this industry, their harder to come by than profits, but if there's one thing I have to believe it's that UWE has them.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I mean, you've already indicated you're in favor of a tutorial, however making a good tutorial is a helluva lot harder than making a bunch of achievements and letting people tutor themselves in the live game -- for starters, you don't need to generate any tutorial AI.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->It's like saying teaching a kid to read is a helluva lot harder than giving him a piece of candy every time he sounds out a word correctly. Learning via a string of vain rewards in no way compares to teaching core values. The same way you can envision a child trying to abuse the "candy" learning system is the same way you can bet players will end up abusing achievements. There's no such thing as 'abusing' a tutorial.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If it's because you're afraid it'll encourage people to be ######s, I'm afraid that's gonna happen anyway, and if the achievements are set up correctly, at least those who are being ######s will be doing something marginally useful for the team rather than simply griefing it. If it's because you're an elitist who simply doesn't want to play with nubs who might be having fun getting their achievements, I'm sure it'd be pretty damned easy to set up a server with achievement gain shut off.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And if achievements aren't there in the first place, most of these people will not be either. There will always be people who play incompetently; however no one plays incompetently simply to do so - there are three major reasons: 1) Griefing 2) achievements 3) sheer lack of skill. Removing even one of these will greatly improve the playerbase.
Am I elitist for not wanting silly vacuous rewards in NS? No more so than you are vain and petty for wanting them. Achievements may fit in silly throwaway play-and-forget games like TF2, but if it's my last hope, NS2 will not be such a game, and so will not benefit from the same form of enterfeignment.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In fact, that strikes me as the best answer yet. Make whether your actions on a server count toward achievements something that can be toggled at the server level. That way, you can go play your ultra-leet devoted game, and the rest of us can have fun trying to get achievements while playing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's not about what one crowd wants, it's about what <i>fits</i> into NS gameplay. Shall we also make a Hats server? Unlocks server too? And thus spoke the naive NS Player: "That way you can go play your ultra-leet devoted classic NS and the rest of us can have fun leveling up and killing stuff while playing combat".
Idling isn't caused by achievements - it's the result of a 'stupid' drop system.
Check out the sheer number of people in those idle servers. They aren't playing in your games sir, they're idling. They, too, spent money on the game.
I am not, however, looking for sales- I'm looking for a consistent player base for this game. (Who the hell wants to play NS2 with the same 30 people on a server located thousands of miles away?)
Achievements brings people in, and it keeps 'em there. When you make a huge gap between the easy achievements and the hard ones you'll find that people will forget that they're even trying to gain achievements anymore, and yet they have an incentive to play the game again.
If you don't think something *fits* into ns2... well... there's a mod for that ;)
<!--quoteo(post=1757176:date=Mar 5 2010, 06:05 AM:name=bhaz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bhaz @ Mar 5 2010, 06:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757176"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Achievements such as "<i>Win a match (at least 7v7) in under 10 minutes</i>", "<i>Successfully defend an attacked resource node</i>", "<i>Weld an additional 5000 armor on your teammates in a single round</i>" ----- i.e. anything that would encourage additional teamwork would be brilliant imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did you give any thought on this? I believe any of those arguments can be turned upsidedown. Theres always a time for everything and players doing a single thing whole match isnt really effective. Win in match in 10min may lead to a straight hive rush. Also you dont anyone welding you when aliens rush or you dont want to see HA train in vent welding eachother in order to gain "achievements". Defending RT after its being bitten is also stupid.
Stupid bonuses like these will mostly attract "simple" people and these will never be contributing to the competitive scene.
I'm certain there would be significant amount of advertising, but how much do you want to dumb down the game. In the end it might not be off anyones liking.
<!--quoteo(post=1757277:date=Mar 5 2010, 09:59 PM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Mar 5 2010, 09:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757277"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Did you give any thought on this?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not really, it was just a one minute reply, there was even a guy flame-baiting me a couple of pages back. :)
Reading through these past few pages though, I see your point. Forcing a strategy or play style on to a team just for the sake of getting an achievement is pretty bad.
Kwil, Robin, Cyanide - Just to mention a few pro-achivements.
Ever read or heard the quote "You can give an idiot wisdom, but he will never learn to think for himself" ? To draw a comparison, take TF2 for example. If you never thought of rocket jumping, before the soldier achivements were introduced, or never thought of making a pipe-bomb jump, how do you learn to think on your own then? Something should differ in skills, let it alone be your aiming or your brain? Achievements are silly imho, sure they can be fun and everything, but dind't we all have fun before achivements were introduced to games? CS, Tribes2, Quake, UT? Insted of striving towards getting some achievements we perfected our skills, wheter it be rocket jumping, headshotting or flying a transporter..
<!--quoteo(post=1757282:date=Mar 5 2010, 02:19 PM:name=Nyu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nyu @ Mar 5 2010, 02:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757282"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Kwil, Robin, Cyanide - Just to mention a few pro-achivements.
Ever read or heard the quote "You can give an idiot wisdom, but he will never learn to think for himself" ? To draw a comparison, take TF2 for example. If you never thought of rocket jumping, before the soldier achivements were introduced, or never thought of making a pipe-bomb jump, how do you learn to think on your own then? Something should differ in skills, let it alone be your aiming or your brain? Achievements are silly imho, sure they can be fun and everything, <b>but dind't we all have fun before achivements were introduced to games? CS, Tribes2, Quake, UT? Insted of striving towards getting some achievements we perfected our skills, wheter it be rocket jumping, headshotting or flying a transporter..</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But here's the key point you're missing.
Those games you've mentioned are all ancient. They're in the past. Yes, they were great games and extremely fun, but the gaming world has moved on, just as the gaming world has moved on from point-and-clicks, which were also the bees knees back in the days of early/mid 90's PC gaming. The Day of the Tentacle was immense when it came out, but would I play it today? Not sure I'd have the patience anymore, newer game genres have come to the fore and provide greater levels of satiety for my personal gaming needs. All of the top games released nowadays have achievements, and the best ones have achievements that don't interfere with gameplay or encourage anti-teamwork. Nor is this a console-only feature either. The point is that you can clearly have the same great gameplay but with added features to entice more gamers into playing the game more regularly.
There's an underlying assumption by many posters on here that achievements lead to anti-teamplay, with people running around acting like idiots. This just doesn't happen in practice, or if it does, it's so miniscule that as someone else said, it's just not an issue. It really reads as though those anti-achievement posts are all based on hypothesis and what they think would happen when achievements are introduced into a game, when that hypothesis is flawed in itself because of an exaggeration about the volume of players "going Rambo" so to speak.
Comments
I think the devs think and select what to release very carefully not to dull image of NS2 while members do not. Also there are those who believe blindly in UWE and do not give a second thought for their comments for example how it would effect gameplay or how would people in public react to it.
Well, for one thing the Aliens are controlled by REAL people doing their best to thwart your efforts. Thus, you have to use REAL TEAMWORK (which includes tasks like welding) to win the game.
Wait, let me repeat that: Real people (that you do not even know) doing real teamwork!
I dislike the idea of achievements, I will attempt to elaborate a little because... I am bored. Everything I am about to say has probably been said before.
I feel, personally, that whenever I am playing for an achievement I am focusing less on the actual game. I.e. I don't care if my team is loosing, as long as I am racking in kills with my bonesaw. Or healing stuff, or whatever. By extension, I assume other players are less focused on the game while they are working on their achievements. You might argue that a gorge healing is a gorge healing. Whether he is healing in order to heal 50000 hp or because his team needs him to heal doesn't matter. But to me, it does. It matters a lot. In my experience, the gorge healing because his team needs him to heal is more engaged in the game than his achievement counterpart. He is following the flow of the battles, he is paying attention to his team, he is more likely to heal the right thing at the right time - this includes stopping the constant health spray to do something that will benefit the team more.
My point here is that no matter how well you align your achievements towards teamplay, they will scatter the focus of players while they are being done. In doing so, they hurt teamplay.
In addition, I don't think achievements adds much. They might conceivably be used to teach some elements of the game mechanics, some L4D achievements works well in this respect, but there are other ways to do this that doesn't involve people ignoring (or focusing less on) teams needs. Achievements doesn't add depth to the game. They don't add contents. At best, they give you additional things 'to do'.
As for 'everyone else does it', 'everyone expects it', and 'NS2 won't sell as many copies if you don't', I don't care. I don't need another generic sci-fi shooter.
<!--quoteo(post=1757163:date=Mar 5 2010, 01:48 AM:name=Rizz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rizz @ Mar 5 2010, 01:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757163"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I for one agree with the original poster and think that achievements would give this game replay value. It is what achievements do, even when you get bored with a game, you can always replay it for achievements or what not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I whole-heartedly disagree. No added value, and all the achievements in the world wouldn't warrant a replay if the core game is boring.
Not necessarily. Per se, how much flak the Taser got...
<!--quoteo(post=1757163:date=Mar 5 2010, 03:48 AM:name=Rizz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rizz @ Mar 5 2010, 03:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757163"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What happens when a good suggestion like this doesn't get implemented because the game developers listened to a small community which supports a big project? All I can assume is that the game wouldn't be the same as if it were implemented. A lot of these type of suggestions really require a bigger community decision than just the hard-core NS members that already reside here, granted that they should be the ones that shape the future for the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I gather UW have already figured this out, at least I don't think they adhere to forums like the gospel. Listening to the vocal minority will always result in a disaster, and listening to majority... Will actually bear the same results.
Personally, I dread to think what NS2 would be if it followed the wishes of any self-proclaimed "pros" as much as I dread to think of it having performance-enhancing paid DLC.
<!--quoteo(post=1757164:date=Mar 5 2010, 04:06 AM:name=Triggerman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Triggerman @ Mar 5 2010, 04:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757164"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To say achievements have no positive outcome is just ignoring facts, it's a well established thing in gaming and probably will stay like that. Gives some more replayability for the sake of... nothing I guess, but it's like that shiny penny as Draco put it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gotta catch 'em all!
But yeah, achievements, to me, only make sense when they encourage fun gameplay. Like that ever-present Gnome Quest, or playing on harder setting, or doing something otherwise interesting... In Mutli-Player it's a bit more complex because fun things for you can turn out to be not so fun for your teammates, and... Actually I that's about the culprit of this.
<!--quoteo(post=1757168:date=Mar 5 2010, 04:15 AM:name=Private)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Private @ Mar 5 2010, 04:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757168"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wait, let me repeat that: Real people (that you do not even know) doing real teamwork!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have positively no idea how it makes the game any more real. What are you trying to say here?..
<!--quoteo(post=1757168:date=Mar 5 2010, 04:15 AM:name=Private)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Private @ Mar 5 2010, 04:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757168"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My point here is that no matter how well you align your achievements towards teamplay, they will scatter the focus of players while they are being done. In doing so, they hurt teamplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good point. Then what needs be done when implementing achievements is to consider and playtest any such scenarios... And if you can't think of any, don't do achievements. Or maybe do the boring ones, "Run 1,000,000 miles" or whatever... For whatever reason... God I hate those.
<!--quoteo(post=1757168:date=Mar 5 2010, 04:15 AM:name=Private)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Private @ Mar 5 2010, 04:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757168"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They don't add contents. At best, they give you additional things 'to do'.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That'd be gameplay. Unfortunately usually boring, but still gameplay.
No, infact, if this topic were written by an official NS2 game developer stating that they were going to implement achievements, everyone would react differently.
"Oh what a great idea!"
"What achievements do you think you'll consider"
"I have a few suggestions"
blah blah blah
I for one agree with the original poster and think that achievements would give this game replay value. It is what achievements do, even when you get bored with a game, you can always replay it for achievements or what not.
What happens when a good suggestion like this doesn't get implemented because the game developers listened to a small community which supports a big project? All I can assume is that the game wouldn't be the same as if it were implemented. A lot of these type of suggestions really require a bigger community decision than just the hard-core NS members that already reside here, granted that they should be the ones that shape the future for the game. However, I believe this game will explode when it comes out and it'll encounter non-NS played people. You then will get people who want achievements or some other stuff that people in the current community (now) think is a bad idea.
Sniper Rifle anyone? Battle Rifle?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) If the devs were posting this you'd best believe there'd be just as much outrage. The only thing that the poster not being a dev changes is that the replies may contain more condescension and less coming to terms.
2) This is an internet forum. If you're not reading a post so you can pick it apart later and look superior you're not doing it right.
3) If you're tired of playing NS and are simply replaying to gather some silly assortment of achievements then I think I speak for everyone when I say GTFO my server. We're too busy actually playing and liking the game for what it is.
4) If you can't see the merits behind discouraging stupid posts and why silly, poorly-thought-out ideas need to be publicly chastised, then please refrain from posting any.
As for the "non-NS people who want achievements", we'll deal with them accordingly here.
Achievements are for games hundreds of people have played every single day for the past few years and will continue to be played for years to come?
Renegade: What games do you currently play?
Achievements such as "<i>Win a match (at least 7v7) in under 10 minutes</i>", "<i>Successfully defend an attacked resource node</i>", "<i>Weld an additional 5000 armor on your teammates in a single round</i>" ----- i.e. anything that would encourage additional teamwork would be brilliant imo.
Although here's not the place to discuss it, I don't play much of anything lately. The last multilayer game I played seriously was Battlefield 2, the best, probably NS.
Following your line of questioning: yes, I may still play a game regardless of achievements or unlocks but like my brief foray into L4D, I find it cultivates a certain type of playerbase in which one finds themselves surrounded by an overwhelming number of permanent noobs, griefers, and over all incompetent players. This increases with the degree to which the game can be labeled "casual" (compare players of CS 1.6 & NS to BF2 to L4D to TF2).
<!--quoteo(post=1757176:date=Mar 4 2010, 09:05 PM:name=bhaz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bhaz @ Mar 4 2010, 09:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757176"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Achievements such as "<i>Win a match (at least 7v7) in under 10 minutes</i>", "<i>Successfully defend an attacked resource node</i>", "<i>Weld an additional 5000 armor on your teammates in a single round</i>" ----- i.e. anything that would encourage additional teamwork would be brilliant imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This displays the rampant naivety or disregard for deeper thought put into the typical pro-achievement example. It should take no longer than 5 seconds to realize your suggestions will lead to a much higher incident of
1) shotgun rushes
2) RT camping
3) Weld-monkeying
It's not as simple as "anything that increases teamwork", and it's mildly insulting to see such drivel being posted when some attempt to spend time formulating their arguments while others afford not more than five seconds of thought.
I can predict what the more intelligent may attempt as a pro-achievement example (no surprise a good example still has yet to be given):
Something that is awarded for X behaviour but only when Y and not if Z in order to make sure X is not abused.
X, Y, Z will progressively approach ideals and values that supposedly encourage good gameplay; however as I predict, the day will come when finally the 'ultimate achievement' is crafted and in utter embarrassment the crafters shall read back its description and realize that it sounds more or less like a tutorial of how to play NS2.
And I vote NO BLOODY FREEKIN achievements in ns2 or refund!
Thank you.
And I vote NO BLOODY FREEKIN achievements in ns2 or refund!
Thank you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your threats are simply ridiculous, I hate to break it to you, but them including achievements will cause NS2 to sell hundreds more copies, pretty much negating any whining you are bringing to the table. The moral is UWE will decide what they want to do based on how they feel and how they want to grow their company and their product.
As for me, I'd love to see the following:
[Marines]
<b>Physician Favorite</b> Obtain 100 Med Packs
<b>Sgt. Johnson</b> Kill 4 or more Kharaa in a single life
<b>Popenator</b> Kill 0 or less Kharaa in a single life
[Kharaa]
<b>Discovery Channel</b> Get healed by a Gorge
<b>Evolution</b> Become an Onos
<b>Glutton</b> Kill 4 or more Marines in a single life
[Misc]
<b>Newb in charge</b> Command at least 3 players for 5 minutes in a single round with less than 40% of the vote committed against you at any time.
Edit: If they add achievements, I'll buy a third copy of the game to negate yours. I love silly achievements that much. There is also proof that more people play TF2 when new achievements are added, so my investment to replace the money lost would be a gain in the long run: I'LL ACTUALLY HAVE PEOPLE TO PLAY THE GAME WITH.
One of reasons why I dislike TF2(and prefer TFC over TF2) are the achievements.
Achievements(in my experience in BF2 and TF2):
1. Usually promotes less teamwork(due to players trying to get achievements).
Example 1(if NS2 had similar to TF2 achievements): Instead of an Onos trying to take down marine base, he's too busy trying to get a kill with his "Taunt Attack"(which launches a hadoken attack, but it takes 5 seconds to charge and only hits one marine near the Onos).
Of course NS2 achievements don't have to be like that.
Example 2(In Battlefield 2. Example of "promotes less teamwork due to achievements"): a lot of people create a squad even though there are 5-7 other squads(with few players in them). Rather than just join an existing squad(and get the benefits of being able to spawn at the squad leader's location), a lot of people would rather just create a squad, even if there are 5-7 other empty(empty except for Squad Leader) squads created already.
Know why? Well, you can unlock a few ribbons and/or medals by having 10, 25, and then 100 squad leader hours respectively.
Though you do need hours as Squad Members too, but once people are done accumulating their 100 hours as Squad Member, they're going for Squad Leader(even if it doesn't help their team).
2. As noted above, it makes people like me try to unlock them all when I'd rather play the game for fun. Rather than play the game for what it is, it changes the game to be an "unlock them alll" type of game.
<b>Now achievements can work in NS2 but if they do silly achievements like knife 18 skulks; then it's going to detract from the gameplay.</b>
People would be too busy trying to get their expert knife badge rather than playing the game for fun.
Then you'd have idle servers or achievement servers(TF2 is plagued with them, but not that I mind because I can unlock everything easily) or knife/pistol only servers(BF2).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But achievements in games like L4D and <b>TF2 do encourage higher skilled gameplay for example. They encourage you to try skills that you might not even think of</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not sure about L4D but I disagree with TF2:
1. There are more <screw you team> achievements than <okay guys, I'll help you win> achievements. Examples include: <assist in really specific tasks> . While the "specific task" in question can help the team sometimes, the problem is there are also more times when doing something else helps the team more.
Example: Assist in burning five enemies with a single ÃœberCharge on a Pyro.
For most player medics, rather than the medic helping the player or class who is doing the best, the medic is just going to look for the pyro to assist, even if the pyro isn't doing good or if someone else is doing better(and could use the help).
Why? Well that's because that's the fastest/easiest way to unlock that achievement. Sure you can just help whoever is contributing (or needs help) the most, but odds are you won't unlock all your achievements as fast as (for example of the above achievement) just going for that pyro and sticking with the pyro all game.
2. <b>Also when TFC was popular, most people played the game to the best of their ability without any "incentives" like achievements.
They played to win but also played to have fun.
Rocket jumps, conc jumping(medic, scouts), etc.
TFC had no achievements but players still played to the best of their ability to help their team and win.</b>
<b>Summary:</b> Achievements(ones that require a specific task) should not be in NS2. At the most, they should only do a rank/level point system(without the achievements, just levels/points). Now I know people are going to respond with <i>"UWE should cater to more players, who are used to ranks or achievements"</i>, true but they shouldn't do anything that might detract from the gameplay(stuff like making players obtain a Taunt Attack kill to unlock <x achievement> for example).
They can just track stats like in BF series, just anything but <insert do specific, teamwork damaging, tasks here> achievements.
Edit: I'm not totally against achievements like badges and stuff, I'm just against the really specific ones like the TF2 achievements. Also I guess a lot of my post only applies to TF2 actually, I don't mind achievements that much in BF2(since for the most part, they aren't so bad). So achievements like BF2 = okay, don't mind so much. Achievements like TF2 = don't want.
Achievements that are a means to unlock STUFF is detrimental to good teamplay.
The Achievements in TF2 were never a problem before players were required to do them to unlock weapons. I find it to be a very great addition to a game when they serve no ulterior purpose.
There's as many good achievements as there are true scotsmen. In otherwords: none, "good achievement" is an oxymoron. I'll attempt to humour your examples though:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[Marines]
<b>Physician Favorite</b> Obtain 100 Med Packs
<b>Sgt. Johnson</b> Kill 4 or more Kharaa in a single life
<b>Popenator</b> Kill 0 or less Kharaa in a single life<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) Med-request spamming even moreso than now, intentional fall damage, achievement-back-scratching "you go comm drop me 100, then I'll go comm and do the same. Sure we'll ruin the game, but hey we'z gettin' our chevements yo"
2) Most pub nubs are already ratio ######s, let's add more incentive:
Comm: "Everyone phase and rush the hive now, it's almost down!"
Rine: "Negative comm, I just killed 3 skulks - I'm not gonna suicide rush till I get my chevement yo!"
3) facetious I hope... wouldn't want to be on a rine team attempting this achievement.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[Kharaa]
<b>Discovery Channel</b> Get healed by a Gorge
<b>Evolution</b> Become an Onos
<b>Glutton</b> Kill 4 or more Marines in a single life<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) as absurd as a "start game" achievement
2) again, both absurd and do we really need more onos res######s?
3) see #3 from last set
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[Misc]
<b>Newb in charge</b> Command at least 3 players for 5 minutes in a single round with less than 40% of the vote committed against you at any time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
a) useless and b) "oh hai I has my chevement now, eject, bye"
Already you can see my predictions coming true: Command X players for Y minutes with Z. How long before someone finally suggests this Achievement: "Spawn, listen to commander, play as a team for at least as long as it is required to win by killing the enemies base with 6 or more players via skill, teamwork and upgrades provided by built resnodes at techpoints".
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Edit: If they add achievements, I'll buy a third copy of the game to negate yours. I love silly achievements that much. There is also proof that more people play TF2 when new achievements are added, so my investment to replace the money lost would be a gain in the long run: I'LL ACTUALLY HAVE PEOPLE TO PLAY THE GAME WITH.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And if they don't I'll ensure I recommend the game to friends which will more than compensate your three copies. Silly achievements and numbers aside, if you think sales or large numbers is the final determiner for quality then you're right up there with Bobby Kotick, or more justly, right <i>down</i> there.
How about we put it this way... if someone is dumb enough or such a renegade to put his team at risk of loosing because of he goes off on his own to fulfill his own goal is the type of player that wouldn't be much of a team player to begin with. If this player does the achievements while not jeopardizing the team's chances or during typical battles(as they should be) it is a non-problem.
The very fact that people are quoting the TF2 achievements seems to me that no one complaining about the achievement farmers in TF2 has any kind of contact with the vast majority of the community. While I wont deny that TF2 does have plenty of people who play to gain the achievements, it is absurd to say that there is any kind of majority of the player base that plays in this manner.
Whats more is the fact that there seems to be an automatic assumption that the inclusion of achievements in some way makes the vast majority of the people who play a game become solely focused on those achievements. I don't know about you all, but I don't play any of my games to gain some obscure achievement. However, the inclusion of achievements like "Get X kills in Y form/weapon/etc" does not do anything to harm the flow or teamwork of the game (especially so if those achievements are over a 'lifetime'). The very idea that achievements in some way detract from the gameplay of a game seems to me to be absurd and I've yet to see a post in this thread that actually PROVES that achievements do anything but provide some eye candy for the vast majority.
It may not be the final determiner for quality.
It will very likely be the determiner as to whether there's an NS3.
As a side note, I doubt you have enough friends to compensate for what achievements can bring in.
However, I still don't understand the argument against them. I mean, you've already indicated you're in favor of a tutorial, however making a good tutorial is a helluva lot harder than making a bunch of achievements and letting people tutor themselves in the live game -- for starters, you don't need to generate any tutorial AI. If it's because you're afraid it'll encourage people to be ######s, I'm afraid that's gonna happen anyway, and if the achievements are set up correctly, at least those who are being ######s will be doing something marginally useful for the team rather than simply griefing it. If it's because you're an elitist who simply doesn't want to play with nubs who might be having fun getting their achievements, I'm sure it'd be pretty damned easy to set up a server with achievement gain shut off.
In fact, that strikes me as the best answer yet. Make whether your actions on a server count toward achievements something that can be toggled at the server level. That way, you can go play your ultra-leet devoted game, and the rest of us can have fun trying to get achievements while playing.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I mean, you've already indicated you're in favor of a tutorial, however making a good tutorial is a helluva lot harder than making a bunch of achievements and letting people tutor themselves in the live game -- for starters, you don't need to generate any tutorial AI.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->It's like saying teaching a kid to read is a helluva lot harder than giving him a piece of candy every time he sounds out a word correctly. Learning via a string of vain rewards in no way compares to teaching core values. The same way you can envision a child trying to abuse the "candy" learning system is the same way you can bet players will end up abusing achievements. There's no such thing as 'abusing' a tutorial.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If it's because you're afraid it'll encourage people to be ######s, I'm afraid that's gonna happen anyway, and if the achievements are set up correctly, at least those who are being ######s will be doing something marginally useful for the team rather than simply griefing it. If it's because you're an elitist who simply doesn't want to play with nubs who might be having fun getting their achievements, I'm sure it'd be pretty damned easy to set up a server with achievement gain shut off.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And if achievements aren't there in the first place, most of these people will not be either. There will always be people who play incompetently; however no one plays incompetently simply to do so - there are three major reasons: 1) Griefing 2) achievements 3) sheer lack of skill. Removing even one of these will greatly improve the playerbase.
Am I elitist for not wanting silly vacuous rewards in NS? No more so than you are vain and petty for wanting them. Achievements may fit in silly throwaway play-and-forget games like TF2, but if it's my last hope, NS2 will not be such a game, and so will not benefit from the same form of enterfeignment.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In fact, that strikes me as the best answer yet. Make whether your actions on a server count toward achievements something that can be toggled at the server level. That way, you can go play your ultra-leet devoted game, and the rest of us can have fun trying to get achievements while playing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not about what one crowd wants, it's about what <i>fits</i> into NS gameplay. Shall we also make a Hats server? Unlocks server too?
And thus spoke the naive NS Player: "That way you can go play your ultra-leet devoted classic NS and the rest of us can have fun leveling up and killing stuff while playing combat".
Plus some which are pretty much impossible to get in a single game are kinda nice.
There should be a tutorial or a big cool manual like for the original NS though.
I'd be happy with an manual of awesomeness, make it pop up the first time you play the game.
<a href="http://filebox.me/files/xxtwrqup4_idle.jpg" target="_blank">The truth is... People are morons</a>
They're just something to chuckle about and perhaps motivate you to play better.
Check out the sheer number of people in those idle servers. They aren't playing in your games sir, they're idling. They, too, spent money on the game.
I am not, however, looking for sales- I'm looking for a consistent player base for this game. (Who the hell wants to play NS2 with the same 30 people on a server located thousands of miles away?)
Achievements brings people in, and it keeps 'em there. When you make a huge gap between the easy achievements and the hard ones you'll find that people will forget that they're even trying to gain achievements anymore, and yet they have an incentive to play the game again.
If you don't think something *fits* into ns2... well... there's a mod for that ;)
Did you give any thought on this? I believe any of those arguments can be turned upsidedown. Theres always a time for everything and players doing a single thing whole match isnt really effective. Win in match in 10min may lead to a straight hive rush. Also you dont anyone welding you when aliens rush or you dont want to see HA train in vent welding eachother in order to gain "achievements". Defending RT after its being bitten is also stupid.
Stupid bonuses like these will mostly attract "simple" people and these will never be contributing to the competitive scene.
I'm certain there would be significant amount of advertising, but how much do you want to dumb down the game. In the end it might not be off anyones liking.
Not really, it was just a one minute reply, there was even a guy flame-baiting me a couple of pages back. :)
Reading through these past few pages though, I see your point. Forcing a strategy or play style on to a team just for the sake of getting an achievement is pretty bad.
Ever read or heard the quote "You can give an idiot wisdom, but he will never learn to think for himself" ?
To draw a comparison, take TF2 for example. If you never thought of rocket jumping, before the soldier achivements were introduced, or never thought of making
a pipe-bomb jump, how do you learn to think on your own then? Something should differ in skills, let it alone be your aiming or your brain?
Achievements are silly imho, sure they can be fun and everything, but dind't we all have fun before achivements were introduced to games? CS, Tribes2, Quake, UT?
Insted of striving towards getting some achievements we perfected our skills, wheter it be rocket jumping, headshotting or flying a transporter..
Ever read or heard the quote "You can give an idiot wisdom, but he will never learn to think for himself" ?
To draw a comparison, take TF2 for example. If you never thought of rocket jumping, before the soldier achivements were introduced, or never thought of making
a pipe-bomb jump, how do you learn to think on your own then? Something should differ in skills, let it alone be your aiming or your brain?
Achievements are silly imho, sure they can be fun and everything, <b>but dind't we all have fun before achivements were introduced to games? CS, Tribes2, Quake, UT?
Insted of striving towards getting some achievements we perfected our skills, wheter it be rocket jumping, headshotting or flying a transporter..</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But here's the key point you're missing.
Those games you've mentioned are all ancient. They're in the past. Yes, they were great games and extremely fun, but the gaming world has moved on, just as the gaming world has moved on from point-and-clicks, which were also the bees knees back in the days of early/mid 90's PC gaming. The Day of the Tentacle was immense when it came out, but would I play it today? Not sure I'd have the patience anymore, newer game genres have come to the fore and provide greater levels of satiety for my personal gaming needs. All of the top games released nowadays have achievements, and the best ones have achievements that don't interfere with gameplay or encourage anti-teamwork. Nor is this a console-only feature either. The point is that you can clearly have the same great gameplay but with added features to entice more gamers into playing the game more regularly.
There's an underlying assumption by many posters on here that achievements lead to anti-teamplay, with people running around acting like idiots. This just doesn't happen in practice, or if it does, it's so miniscule that as someone else said, it's just not an issue. It really reads as though those anti-achievement posts are all based on hypothesis and what they think would happen when achievements are introduced into a game, when that hypothesis is flawed in itself because of an exaggeration about the volume of players "going Rambo" so to speak.