Whats the point in that, rines allready pwn hard enough, without better hp/arm ammo. It can just be a question of dammage. Hp dissapears so fast ne way.
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
edited June 2010
<!--quoteo(post=1773699:date=Jun 7 2010, 07:46 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jun 7 2010, 07:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1773699"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The ammo types have problems of their own. They are not as visual as simply wielding a different gun. How confusing it is to have exactly the same visual and audial feedback right before the fight, while you're actually running into completely different situation depending on the ammo types?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This.
One point of all the strategic possibilities and counters is that it includes scouting and gambling and moreover one team shouldn't be able to counter something the moment they face it except they knew it way before.
The different gun types provide the same thing as different ammo just on a simpler level in an already complex game. Weapons and equipment are the marine classes, with ammo you'd add something the alien team doesn't have. You actually have to invest resources and either take a risk with your choice or rely on scouting. With different ammo types you would just stay at the armory while defending and choose the proper one without any res-cost and additional relay due to possible waiting for res-income.
Edit: And please stop it already with the real-life arguments. This is a sci-fi game and a lot of people aren't into guns at all (and with ppl I mean all over the world and not in the usa)
I'm kinda confused that Heavy attacks do more to Heavy armored units, but Heavy was always suppose to be pretty effective and countering against fades being able to harass. Shotguns were also pretty "bad" to use against onos because you still needed to be at closer ranges than an HMG. And I actually believe as the game goes on effectiveness against higher lifeforms should end up being just not enough damage output alone while still being able to fend off fellow low tier players (marines and skulks always effective against each other and always present, but higher lifeforms/stornger rines will always need some extra stuff to handle or huge numbers advantage).
BTW, I'd rather see base damage and extra damage to certain units like in Starcraft 2 than having to learn on your own the armor reduction scheme like in starcraft 2. It took me months of playing and wondering why my units weren't doing full damage to other units to realize certain attacks do 1/2 or 1/4 damage.
Also I think that in addition to StructuralOnly there should be NPC/Structures so that you can kill building bots/alien builders with bilebomb and siege kill the builders. It might be kinda "op" for siege cannons since they go through walls, but I'm sure you can balance it by priority on buildings and making them need to hit builders more to kill them (and structureonly is less damage, i edited my post midway and confused myself probably).
I guess damage types will eventually be refined, but I don't think anything really becomes obsolete that already wasn't in the old NS. Marines and skulks were always capable of standing against another force, but the marine side always dies easier to skulks (minus heavy maybe, but skulks are capable of hurting heavies a lot) while fades and onos are hard to kill against 2-3 marines with no tech like skulks. They're still all important throughout the game, but they should lose effectiveness and group with light or something imo.
I like this a lot. Definitely beats the pants off the old "Ok, this gun is better than this gun, is better than this gun." That lead to the development of more or less fixed/optimal build paths with little room for flexibility. Now you might actually have to think about what weapon/skill you take with you and will lead to small groups carrying different sets of weapons as opposed to walls of HA w/HMG/GL. Now you might need an exo with an HMG, a JP with a shotty, a few light rines with LMGs in order to counter varius OCs, skulks, and fades while assaulting a hive.
<!--quoteo(post=1773700:date=Jun 7 2010, 07:01 AM:name=dieaready)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dieaready @ Jun 7 2010, 07:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1773700"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The point for the different ammo type is that the focus is on the overall big picture, and not just for that battle. A train of heavy marines packing ap ammo may have just wiped out an onos train, only for the feedback to be passed along to other khraa players who then go unarmoured fades or skulks and wipe them out, causing the marines to feedback to the rest of the team to switch to hp ammo, at which then the khraa players, if smart enough, can guess that happening before the next battle and revert back to using armoured units. Of course, the whole thing is a gamble for both sides, so that would keep the game interesting throughout the whole round.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think going for a "charge - die - react accordingly based on what killed you" is a good idea. NS has a lot of depth in scouting the situation before the fight and in the quick decisions based on how the situation develops right when you're entering it. Gun visuals are a big factor on those. Trying to turn NS into too much full macro RTS isn't using the strenghts of the RTS/FPS hybrid at all.
<!--quoteo(post=1773669:date=Jun 6 2010, 09:57 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jun 6 2010, 09:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1773669"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Blog post (and NS2) updated:
Puncture -> Heavy Piercing -> Puncture
To whomever mentioned that they thought this was too many damage types - if you carefully read the entire post, I'm basically trying to describe how I think this is actually more intuitive overall. Most players won't know anything about damage types and they won't need to. It will just feel right.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was a bit worried about this when I read damage types, but after I saw how you guys are implimenting them I do agree, they are intuitive. Only one that, at least to me, feels off is the shotgun.
With all this, let's not forget that this game isn't Rock Paper Scissors, and it isn't SC2, units don't just face each other and shoot, then we add up the numbers and see who won and who is dead. Let scissors win against rock if he sets up an ambush, or manages to dodge well, or one of another thousand possible creative or even lucky maneuvers that are possible in an FPS that an RTS could never manage.
What worries me about so much focus on damage types is that picking the appropriate weapons and armor becomes a more important part of gameplay than what I consider to be the core of NS which is a squad of marines walking slowly down a hallway, checking for skulks in corners because an ambush could take them all out.
In my opinion, the situational factors (location + surprise) and skill should determine roughly 70-80% of battles (of enemies of roughly the same power level) with things like being equipped with the right armor or weapons useful, but nowhere near the main deciding factor.
My Message is "never touch a running system" which means the old system was good, but serious you say the marines can simple kill the alien Buildings but the lerk (who can simply shot down by marines) can't shoot a Marine building? I mean come on, why not just half damage. And then you wrote "Gas - Breathing targets only (Spores, Rifle nerve gas grenades)" Are you serious? GAS Grenades for the marines? Whats next, a Mechwarrior for the Marines against the onos? Realy, no hiding for aliens anymore because of stupid gas, all this sounds typical like NS1 where the marines where totaly overpowered after they reach the jetpack or heavy armor. <b>Man this feels totaly wrong, marines got flamer, a axe which did a lot of damage, grenade launcher, gas grenades, auto sieges</b>, and the aliens? Yeah slower but a bit stronger Skulk...yay, slow skulk maybe slower then a marine...yay. Sounds very bad and imba for the aliens.
Why you not pull the Teamfactor in a bigger dimension? In NS1 he lerk save the teammates with his protect gas or the Fade save the gorge against marines the gorge heal the fade, thats teamwork! Something which are important to the team and needs teamwork. Same for the marines, it sounds to easy with auto sieges, why you not create something like a Item somebody of the marine team have to buy and only with this item the siege can move ahead. So if the marine buy this or more marines, the siege goes faster, because its a energypack, but while the marine hold it, he can't fire, so teammates have to protect him. I hate to see in a lot of games like Team fortress 2 (yeah there a lot of lone wolfs) and the name is TEAM fortress, but a lot of people walk alone and just kill for frags. So maybe in NS2 a lot of marines or aliens fight for the money...
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->No Hidden Modifiers<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> As far as I can remember, this was a mantra you guys lived by. I remember hearing it quoted and frequently quoting it myself in response to otherwise good suggestions that violated this principle. If now suddenly this policy is going to be reversed, there's a world of new possibilities (and old) that can enhance gameplay (or possibly over-complexify it). I think one example was the pre-3.0 "hive armour" bonuses that were subsequently removed (?) because of the "hidden modifiers" policy.
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Hydra<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> I must have missed the memo... for a while there I was beside myself wondering what sort of new unit the Hydra was before checking the tweet and realizing it is the new name for OCs. False alarm.
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
The lerk does "extra damage" to players. They also explicit mentioned "half" and "double" for a few damage types, so the extra damage is up for balancing and also means that the lerk does damage to buildings. It just got way better things to do. One single lerk shouldn't be able to cause fatal structure damage anyway that's what you have other classes for. The lerk could scout for incoming reinforcements and harass them on their way to defend their base.
<!--quoteo(post=1773642:date=Jun 6 2010, 05:05 PM:name=Triggerman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Triggerman @ Jun 6 2010, 05:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1773642"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But if shotguns are not good against armoured targets, what is its niche?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a shotgun. That's all the reason I need to take it.
I just hope Hydras (OCs) aren't just 3-5 clips from a solo marine semi-shooting around a corner while getting untouched anymore.
It will still be Shotgun vs. Fade again somewhat. I kind of like that.
It will be interesting to see how effective shotgun and rifle vs. regular structures. The switch-axe will make you a sitting duck I think.
The Shotgun vs. Gorge armor defense skill will be what I want to see... I hope the Gorge can survive quite a few more shells from the shotgun in the armored mode. As it won't be able to run away nearly as effectively as it can in NS1. (No Bhop... Alien Comm research times... No Movement Chamber teleport away... Etc...) It just has slide right?
Teamwork is still there. Marines will be spawning on each other and moving together more. Lerks and skulk combos. Lerk and Fade combos. Gorge turtle armor with skulk/lerk/fade/onos saves. Skulk leap in. Distract. Leap to safety while another Skulk is leaping in for kill will be 1 hive now. If anything it will be more teamwork. I just hope the marines late game guns aren't as devastating as they sound. They sound like Doom/Duke Nukem style BFGs(Look up the acronym if you don't know it haha) that are ment to mow down everything.
The rifle grenades won't be that numerous. It won't even be that spammable I imagine as it will take longer to attach and shoot that a regular hand one is to throw. I thought they were replacing standard handthrown grenades anyways and I imagine you can choose between gas/explosive after each is upgrade.
Again the lerk isn't effective vs. structures... Turrets just had low health and every noob comm turret farmed everything and all the alien noobs went lerk in early NS so it SEEMED it was somewhat effective. But it was noob lerks that stood there spiking vs. noob marines that built turrets and didn't watch the map to see what was dying and investigate and just stood there all game. Hurrah 2 hour games that people liked... That's where they came from... You were all just bad players that caused those games and then ended up liking those kind of games in the end because you could kill other bad players with no skills.
The marine turtle with onos being the counter to it being that much more effective will be great. It will be interesting to see the minigun vs. onos as well as how the onos deals with turrets+4 marine shotguns+2 marine miniguns. Wonder how fast he dies and how much destruction he can get off and if he can round the corner to scout... Realize it was a mistake and retreat before being chased by the 6 marines and being gunned down. It will also be interesting to see how fast the aliens regenerate health in hives while being under fire. As well as gorge turtle mode in hive while being shot/axed. As well as many other gaming aspects THAT I WANT TO ALPHA TEST ALREADY KALSFJKLSDLKJGEKWLGLKSD.
Yeah I was thibking more of maybe "rending" taken from wrhammer40K :)
<!--quoteo(post=1773618:date=Jun 6 2010, 02:03 PM:name=Gork)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gork @ Jun 6 2010, 02:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1773618"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"Puncture" and "Piercing" seem a little misleading. Those are synonyms. I can see that being confusing for people. And shotguns "puncturing" armor? Are they firing slugs in this game? Cause buckshot should be like a confetti launcher against armored targets. Otherwise, this all sounds great. =)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As others have mentioned, this is all great and appeals to me but it NEEDS to be intuitive and spelt out in black and white - every tooltip for every weapon/building(marine or alien)/lifeform needs to say what its strong/weak against.
Hell, if you have 'newbie' mode switched on, you could have a tooltip pop up when you get hit by something your weak against or you see a new weapon/lifeform/building explaining its 'strong/weak vs...' info.
<!--quoteo(post=1773626:date=Jun 6 2010, 10:56 PM:name=Ahnteis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ahnteis @ Jun 6 2010, 10:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1773626"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not a huge fan. NS2 had very limited special damage and instead focused on weapon behavior instead of trying to emulate it with damage types. I much prefer an RTS like Total Annihilation to one like Star Craft 2 (which has a LOT of special damages).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> TA had loads of hidden modifiers as well, they were just... hidden. Missiles (homing) for example would do 80 default, 200 vs VTOL (aircraft).
<!--quoteo(post=1773719:date=Jun 7 2010, 08:59 AM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Jun 7 2010, 08:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1773719"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->No Hidden Modifiers<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't know if they changed their mind or if the damage types just weren't considered <i>hidden</i> modifiers, but we had them since... some version. It was pretty early on that we got stuff like siege cannon and grenade launcher doing double to buildings (and later, siege did nothing to players), or HMG doing half.
<!--quoteo(post=1773719:date=Jun 7 2010, 08:59 AM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Jun 7 2010, 08:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1773719"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Hydra<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hydra is old news, been mentioned several times on the twitter feed.
Why not let the creature change their damage type?
Lerk: DNA Change to Piercing cost XX DNA Change to Flesheating blah cost XX
Marine: Piercing Ammo cost XX (Full metal jacket = did not much damage against not armored creatures/buildings but a lot against armored targets onos/defence chambers and s.) Hollow Ammo cost XX (hollow-point bullet = did a lot damage to not protected targets)
So both teams have to buy two types of ammo, but at start they only need the non armored piercing ammo. For noobs maybe you can activate a <b>"auto change target system" </b> which is a attachment to the weapon, which change the ammo automatic after seeing a alien, takes 1 second? For the aliens its only for the lerk spikes, but maybe the lerk get a bar, which he can choose left and right spikes? So he can change left spikes to Flesheating and right to piercing or both to flesheating, so flesheating takes health and piercing takes armor.
I'm going to go on a limb here and say everyone is incredibly confused.
The only weapon that makes any sense is the Flamethrower, i.e. if it's living, we can kill it with fire!
Where the hell are hand-grenades!!!! (i was looking forward to a much more buffed version of the fairly useless NS1 hand grenade, that i was expecting to look like the one in Starship Troopers).
According to the list a high-explosive launched grenade does not do any damage to living things... only structures... and to that i say wtf i want it to kill every skulk in the room. If you don't think every player will not (after spending money for the grenade-launcher attachment) be firing off several launched grenades at the enemy (in hopes of killing the enemy), then you haven't been playing any games for like several years now. To add CONFUSION to the game, the marine can fire a nerve-gas launched grenade to hurt the enemy but not structures... so why the double standard here... do i REALLY need to alternate my ammo types in the middle of battle to fire off both high explosive and nerve gas?? What would make sense is the grenade launcher being deadly to low-level lifeforms and harmful to high-level lifeforms, where the high-explosive standard ammo can also hurt structures.... and the nerve gas is more of a niche weapon for use on the alien hive to prep the battlefield by weakening all the aliens inside ahead of time.
In addition to this, the alien team is fast moving and the marine team is slow therefore gas has a higher potential for being harmful against the marine team which means we need a way to hurt the aliens faster... i.e. EXPLOSIVES.
Back in the day there was a point where i wanted marines to be able to fire off nerve gas, because it seemed to fit with the idea of marines wearing GAS-MASKS (to protect from the gas they were flooding rooms with, and also whatever the enemy could use)... But not at the expense that the standard exploding 40mm grenade be useless against enemy players!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why is the shotgun and pistol listed as an ANTI-ARMOR HEAVY weapon, BUT NOT the primary marine rifle (don't tell me the 40mm HI-EX grenades, which do not hurt enemy players at all, and the fairly weak nerve-gas will be more useful then the bullets in the gun?!!!). Should i drop my primary weapon and switch to the pistol as an immediate deadliness-factor upgrade, like in NS1? Is this like a balancing trick so the pistol isn't useless, and the average player is too stupid to realize their primary weapon (although fun to spray all over the place) is in fact weaker then the pistol (like in NS1?). How about a skill-based rate-of-fire mode where the primary marine rifle has a super fast burst fire mode (like the AN-94), with the benefit of high-accuracy multiple-bullets-hitting-the-same-spot anti-armor effect. If you don't want to add a rate-of-fire switch (because it would laughably overcomplicate the game) then for full auto make the first couple of bullets ultra fast armor piercing accurate, and then for all shots after have a drastically slower full-auto rate of first (to conserve ammo), exactly like the AN-94.
Also what is the difference between puncture and piercing? Gonna go on a limb here and think puncture hurt both a enemies health and armor, and piercing did the same thing but the added caveat that the bullet continued through to enemies behind?
<!--quoteo(post=1773753:date=Jun 7 2010, 03:02 PM:name=Cereal_KillR)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cereal_KillR @ Jun 7 2010, 03:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1773753"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I thought that NS2 was going towards a "only one weapon, but with moddable attachments and upgrades" Where does the shotgun come in?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> As far as I can remember, the only weapon to be confirmed to be anything like that was the standard Rifle. Which makes sense; upgrading something basic to be viable late-game is a common option in strategy games.
This was a very interesting post to read and has made me want to buy the game early. Very refreshing to see a truly gameplay orientated update as I had become disillusioned with the scores of people apparently only interested in what the game looked like.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But there's a down-side of course - adding these damage types makes the game more difficult to learn and understand. Which targets are armored?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
load screen hints and tips... all the other games do it and people learn eventually.
You can't expect to jump into a game as complex as ns and know exactly what to do. it took me a month of following a friend around and doing exactly what he did in ns1 to learn the basics of the game.
even without damage types this game will not be beginner friendly.
Comments
I donno maybe like a cluster bullet tho
This.
One point of all the strategic possibilities and counters is that it includes scouting and gambling and moreover one team shouldn't be able to counter something the moment they face it except they knew it way before.
The different gun types provide the same thing as different ammo just on a simpler level in an already complex game. Weapons and equipment are the marine classes, with ammo you'd add something the alien team doesn't have.
You actually have to invest resources and either take a risk with your choice or rely on scouting. With different ammo types you would just stay at the armory while defending and choose the proper one without any res-cost and additional relay due to possible waiting for res-income.
Edit: And please stop it already with the real-life arguments. This is a sci-fi game and a lot of people aren't into guns at all (and with ppl I mean all over the world and not in the usa)
BTW, I'd rather see base damage and extra damage to certain units like in Starcraft 2 than having to learn on your own the armor reduction scheme like in starcraft 2. It took me months of playing and wondering why my units weren't doing full damage to other units to realize certain attacks do 1/2 or 1/4 damage.
Also I think that in addition to StructuralOnly there should be NPC/Structures so that you can kill building bots/alien builders with bilebomb and siege kill the builders. It might be kinda "op" for siege cannons since they go through walls, but I'm sure you can balance it by priority on buildings and making them need to hit builders more to kill them (and structureonly is less damage, i edited my post midway and confused myself probably).
I guess damage types will eventually be refined, but I don't think anything really becomes obsolete that already wasn't in the old NS. Marines and skulks were always capable of standing against another force, but the marine side always dies easier to skulks (minus heavy maybe, but skulks are capable of hurting heavies a lot) while fades and onos are hard to kill against 2-3 marines with no tech like skulks. They're still all important throughout the game, but they should lose effectiveness and group with light or something imo.
and i'm sure alpha/beta testing will elimnate and unbalances!
I don't think going for a "charge - die - react accordingly based on what killed you" is a good idea. NS has a lot of depth in scouting the situation before the fight and in the quick decisions based on how the situation develops right when you're entering it. Gun visuals are a big factor on those. Trying to turn NS into too much full macro RTS isn't using the strenghts of the RTS/FPS hybrid at all.
Puncture -> Heavy
Piercing -> Puncture
To whomever mentioned that they thought this was too many damage types - if you carefully read the entire post, I'm basically trying to describe how I think this is actually more intuitive overall. Most players won't know anything about damage types and they won't need to. It will just feel right.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was a bit worried about this when I read damage types, but after I saw how you guys are implimenting them I do agree, they are intuitive. Only one that, at least to me, feels off is the shotgun.
skulk scream fear factor.
What worries me about so much focus on damage types is that picking the appropriate weapons and armor becomes a more important part of gameplay than what I consider to be the core of NS which is a squad of marines walking slowly down a hallway, checking for skulks in corners because an ambush could take them all out.
In my opinion, the situational factors (location + surprise) and skill should determine roughly 70-80% of battles (of enemies of roughly the same power level) with things like being equipped with the right armor or weapons useful, but nowhere near the main deciding factor.
I mean come on, why not just half damage.
And then you wrote "Gas - Breathing targets only (Spores, Rifle nerve gas grenades)"
Are you serious?
GAS Grenades for the marines?
Whats next, a Mechwarrior for the Marines against the onos?
Realy, no hiding for aliens anymore because of stupid gas, all this sounds typical like NS1 where the marines where totaly overpowered after they reach the jetpack or heavy armor.
<b>Man this feels totaly wrong, marines got flamer, a axe which did a lot of damage, grenade launcher, gas grenades, auto sieges</b>, and the aliens?
Yeah slower but a bit stronger Skulk...yay, slow skulk maybe slower then a marine...yay.
Sounds very bad and imba for the aliens.
Why you not pull the Teamfactor in a bigger dimension?
In NS1 he lerk save the teammates with his protect gas or the Fade save the gorge against marines the gorge heal the fade, thats teamwork!
Something which are important to the team and needs teamwork.
Same for the marines, it sounds to easy with auto sieges, why you not create something like a Item somebody of the marine team have to buy and only with this item the siege can move ahead.
So if the marine buy this or more marines, the siege goes faster, because its a energypack, but while the marine hold it, he can't fire, so teammates have to protect him.
I hate to see in a lot of games like Team fortress 2 (yeah there a lot of lone wolfs) and the name is TEAM fortress, but a lot of people walk alone and just kill for frags.
So maybe in NS2 a lot of marines or aliens fight for the money...
As far as I can remember, this was a mantra you guys lived by. I remember hearing it quoted and frequently quoting it myself in response to otherwise good suggestions that violated this principle. If now suddenly this policy is going to be reversed, there's a world of new possibilities (and old) that can enhance gameplay (or possibly over-complexify it). I think one example was the pre-3.0 "hive armour" bonuses that were subsequently removed (?) because of the "hidden modifiers" policy.
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Hydra<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
I must have missed the memo... for a while there I was beside myself wondering what sort of new unit the Hydra was before checking the tweet and realizing it is the new name for OCs. False alarm.
One single lerk shouldn't be able to cause fatal structure damage anyway that's what you have other classes for. The lerk could scout for incoming reinforcements and harass them on their way to defend their base.
It's a shotgun. That's all the reason I need to take it.
It will still be Shotgun vs. Fade again somewhat. I kind of like that.
It will be interesting to see how effective shotgun and rifle vs. regular structures. The switch-axe will make you a sitting duck I think.
The Shotgun vs. Gorge armor defense skill will be what I want to see... I hope the Gorge can survive quite a few more shells from the shotgun in the armored mode. As it won't be able to run away nearly as effectively as it can in NS1. (No Bhop... Alien Comm research times... No Movement Chamber teleport away... Etc...) It just has slide right?
Teamwork is still there. Marines will be spawning on each other and moving together more. Lerks and skulk combos. Lerk and Fade combos. Gorge turtle armor with skulk/lerk/fade/onos saves. Skulk leap in. Distract. Leap to safety while another Skulk is leaping in for kill will be 1 hive now. If anything it will be more teamwork. I just hope the marines late game guns aren't as devastating as they sound. They sound like Doom/Duke Nukem style BFGs(Look up the acronym if you don't know it haha) that are ment to mow down everything.
The rifle grenades won't be that numerous. It won't even be that spammable I imagine as it will take longer to attach and shoot that a regular hand one is to throw. I thought they were replacing standard handthrown grenades anyways and I imagine you can choose between gas/explosive after each is upgrade.
Again the lerk isn't effective vs. structures... Turrets just had low health and every noob comm turret farmed everything and all the alien noobs went lerk in early NS so it SEEMED it was somewhat effective. But it was noob lerks that stood there spiking vs. noob marines that built turrets and didn't watch the map to see what was dying and investigate and just stood there all game. Hurrah 2 hour games that people liked... That's where they came from... You were all just bad players that caused those games and then ended up liking those kind of games in the end because you could kill other bad players with no skills.
The marine turtle with onos being the counter to it being that much more effective will be great. It will be interesting to see the minigun vs. onos as well as how the onos deals with turrets+4 marine shotguns+2 marine miniguns. Wonder how fast he dies and how much destruction he can get off and if he can round the corner to scout... Realize it was a mistake and retreat before being chased by the 6 marines and being gunned down. It will also be interesting to see how fast the aliens regenerate health in hives while being under fire. As well as gorge turtle mode in hive while being shot/axed. As well as many other gaming aspects THAT I WANT TO ALPHA TEST ALREADY KALSFJKLSDLKJGEKWLGLKSD.
End post naow.
Whip Bombard? <i>bilebomb?</i>
Crags?
Flame what?
Flame shiet , that ###### break games :/
No Flamethrower , plz :/
<!--quoteo(post=1773618:date=Jun 6 2010, 02:03 PM:name=Gork)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gork @ Jun 6 2010, 02:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1773618"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"Puncture" and "Piercing" seem a little misleading. Those are synonyms. I can see that being confusing for people. And shotguns "puncturing" armor? Are they firing slugs in this game? Cause buckshot should be like a confetti launcher against armored targets. Otherwise, this all sounds great. =)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hell, if you have 'newbie' mode switched on, you could have a tooltip pop up when you get hit by something your weak against or you see a new weapon/lifeform/building explaining its 'strong/weak vs...' info.
TA had loads of hidden modifiers as well, they were just... hidden. Missiles (homing) for example would do 80 default, 200 vs VTOL (aircraft).
<!--quoteo(post=1773719:date=Jun 7 2010, 08:59 AM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Jun 7 2010, 08:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1773719"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->No Hidden Modifiers<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know if they changed their mind or if the damage types just weren't considered <i>hidden</i> modifiers, but we had them since... some version. It was pretty early on that we got stuff like siege cannon and grenade launcher doing double to buildings (and later, siege did nothing to players), or HMG doing half.
<!--quoteo(post=1773719:date=Jun 7 2010, 08:59 AM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Jun 7 2010, 08:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1773719"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Hydra<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hydra is old news, been mentioned several times on the twitter feed.
Lerk:
DNA Change to Piercing cost XX
DNA Change to Flesheating blah cost XX
Marine:
Piercing Ammo cost XX (Full metal jacket = did not much damage against not armored creatures/buildings but a lot against armored targets onos/defence chambers and s.)
Hollow Ammo cost XX (hollow-point bullet = did a lot damage to not protected targets)
So both teams have to buy two types of ammo, but at start they only need the non armored piercing ammo.
For noobs maybe you can activate a
<b>"auto change target system" </b> which is a attachment to the weapon, which change the ammo automatic after seeing a alien, takes 1 second?
For the aliens its only for the lerk spikes, but maybe the lerk get a bar, which he can choose left and right spikes?
So he can change left spikes to Flesheating and right to piercing or both to flesheating, so flesheating takes health and piercing takes armor.
The "Damage Types" are fixed to the weapon.
The aren't going down the 'Bioshock' route here.. weapons wont all have multiple changeable ammo types and nor should they.
Weapons with unique "Damage types" help ensure they never become obsolete.
Its just a Philosophy.
I'm surprised it has resulted in people posting all these really specific balance concerns.
Also: parasites, yay.
The only weapon that makes any sense is the Flamethrower, i.e. if it's living, we can kill it with fire!
Where the hell are hand-grenades!!!! (i was looking forward to a much more buffed version of the fairly useless NS1 hand grenade, that i was expecting to look like the one in Starship Troopers).
According to the list a high-explosive launched grenade does not do any damage to living things... only structures... and to that i say wtf i want it to kill every skulk in the room. If you don't think every player will not (after spending money for the grenade-launcher attachment) be firing off several launched grenades at the enemy (in hopes of killing the enemy), then you haven't been playing any games for like several years now. To add CONFUSION to the game, the marine can fire a nerve-gas launched grenade to hurt the enemy but not structures... so why the double standard here... do i REALLY need to alternate my ammo types in the middle of battle to fire off both high explosive and nerve gas?? What would make sense is the grenade launcher being deadly to low-level lifeforms and harmful to high-level lifeforms, where the high-explosive standard ammo can also hurt structures.... and the nerve gas is more of a niche weapon for use on the alien hive to prep the battlefield by weakening all the aliens inside ahead of time.
In addition to this, the alien team is fast moving and the marine team is slow therefore gas has a higher potential for being harmful against the marine team which means we need a way to hurt the aliens faster... i.e. EXPLOSIVES.
Back in the day there was a point where i wanted marines to be able to fire off nerve gas, because it seemed to fit with the idea of marines wearing GAS-MASKS (to protect from the gas they were flooding rooms with, and also whatever the enemy could use)... But not at the expense that the standard exploding 40mm grenade be useless against enemy players!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why is the shotgun and pistol listed as an ANTI-ARMOR HEAVY weapon, BUT NOT the primary marine rifle (don't tell me the 40mm HI-EX grenades, which do not hurt enemy players at all, and the fairly weak nerve-gas will be more useful then the bullets in the gun?!!!). Should i drop my primary weapon and switch to the pistol as an immediate deadliness-factor upgrade, like in NS1? Is this like a balancing trick so the pistol isn't useless, and the average player is too stupid to realize their primary weapon (although fun to spray all over the place) is in fact weaker then the pistol (like in NS1?). How about a skill-based rate-of-fire mode where the primary marine rifle has a super fast burst fire mode (like the AN-94), with the benefit of high-accuracy multiple-bullets-hitting-the-same-spot anti-armor effect. If you don't want to add a rate-of-fire switch (because it would laughably overcomplicate the game) then for full auto make the first couple of bullets ultra fast armor piercing accurate, and then for all shots after have a drastically slower full-auto rate of first (to conserve ammo), exactly like the AN-94.
Also what is the difference between puncture and piercing? Gonna go on a limb here and think puncture hurt both a enemies health and armor, and piercing did the same thing but the added caveat that the bullet continued through to enemies behind?
As far as I can remember, the only weapon to be confirmed to be anything like that was the standard Rifle. Which makes sense; upgrading something basic to be viable late-game is a common option in strategy games.
load screen hints and tips... all the other games do it and people learn eventually.
You can't expect to jump into a game as complex as ns and know exactly what to do. it took me a month of following a friend around and doing exactly what he did in ns1 to learn the basics of the game.
even without damage types this game will not be beginner friendly.