<!--quoteo(post=1777057:date=Jul 5 2010, 09:04 PM:name=Slycaster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Slycaster @ Jul 5 2010, 09:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777057"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've played NS2 since the first day it was ever in-house play tested up until years later, and the people we played with never bhopped. And surprise TrC, we had a great time. In fact, the spawn of competitive NS started from EC vs TAU way way back in the day with players like SentrySteve. Beyond 2005 NS's scene may have evolved, and that's great. But I'm telling you that NS without bhopping was still an incredibly fun, immerse, balanced game in the hands of casual playing mixed in with those who just natural excel at shooters, like Steve.
Your definition of a key feature is in fact, a very minor feature of making NS a fun, atmospheric, entertaining game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Perhaps, you were fortuned enough to find a low skilled server, nobody desiring to get better, friendly place where you could get your daily kicks. Guess what, thats not what im interested, I have been playing since 1.04 start and bh had been since maybe even before a main component in both alien and marine play. The fact that movement and aiming while at it can be so challenging to master and truthfully affects your performance is rather rare. I dont know what it is that drive people into hating bh, nostalgia from time when there was no good players or simple laziness to see any effort.
Our views are clearly different I wish to see competitive, long lasting game with excellent gameplay while you seem to prefer visual simple casual experience. Perhaps thats why I'm here raging it out here.
I don't think you read him right. He's saying he's playtested it before the game was ever released, and his point is that the game is fun even without pretentious people trying to insinuate in every other sentence that they're better than the rest. So sure, bunny hopping is currently an important part of the game, but it was never actually part of the game design.
TrC, there's no reason to get your panties in a bunch until you actually play the game. There isn't much else to say other than "I want something similar to bhop in the game." You're not the only one and even some developers recognize the importance of bunny hopping.
That said, Slycaster's point stands. We hardly know anything about NS2 and the little bits we do know make it clear that NS2 will have some significant changes. Just imagine if skulks had leap at their first hive in NS1. The game would be broken.
I understand that there's nothing to really talk about until the game is out but theorycrafting why NS2 is going to suck without knowing anything about NS2 is silly. Take my approach. It's the more laid back "I hope we see some movement skill somewhere in the game." You'll sleep better at night and those nightmares of you feverishly replying to other people's theorycraft with your own may finally go away.
<!--quoteo(post=1777063:date=Jul 5 2010, 03:26 PM:name=Cereal_KillR)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cereal_KillR @ Jul 5 2010, 03:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777063"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think you read him right. He's saying he's playtested it before the game was ever released, and his point is that the game is fun even without pretentious people trying to insinuate in every other sentence that they're better than the rest. So sure, bunny hopping is currently an important part of the game, but it was never actually part of the game design.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Apparently bunny hopping was and is a part of NS1's current game design.
You are correct in saying that the game can be fun without bunnyhopping. However, bunny hopping does add something to the complexity of the game, that is undeniable. That is takes practice to perfect and also increases complexity lends to the upper skill divisions of the community. But to say NS1 is absolutely nothing without bunny hopping would be asinine.
It wasn't part of the original game design. It eventually caught on when they thought "hey, aliens need to move around and bunnyhopping allows that". Now that they're starting over, they can change the method to have a similar more intuitive result. Ultimately, I believe a game should play similarly for newer players and more advanced players, but just on a more advanced and technical level. However, NS1 actually changes quite extensively before and after bunnyhopping, much more so than when aim progresses for example.
ssjyodaJoin Date: 2002-03-05Member: 274Members, Squad Five Blue
bunnyhopping was around before ns, it didn't come about after the game was out.. most games around that time, it was just an accepted way of moving about. leaving it in was part of the design.
<!--quoteo(post=1777083:date=Jul 5 2010, 06:11 PM:name=ssjyoda)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ssjyoda @ Jul 5 2010, 06:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777083"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->bunnyhopping was around before ns, it didn't come about after the game was out.. most games around that time, it was just an accepted way of moving about. leaving it in was part of the design.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
From start to finish of playtesting before release it never really was an issue. No playtester was really competitive in other hl engine based mod circles for them to care about it's engine exploitations. NS just happened to not limit your movement upon jumping like DoD and other mods, because it wasn't the right thing to do for the gameplay in general. bhopping was never really "meant" to be in the game, Flay just didn't want a jump slow down or any variation and naturally, this opened doors to the ability to bhop. I can tell you that in the 1.04 days, rarely anyone, ANYONE bhopped. Ask Steve, dudes old school and competitive.
Unfortunately for shooters, there isn't an easy way to rank and file good and bad players like leagues in RTS games. Ultimately you find people gravitate to server communities which ultimately are the best solution for this. However, even though NS isn't the best example at the moment, but if a new player were to join an existing NS server at this point, they would pretty much feel like this game is broken. They can't operate the way you do at all, and it makes the new player introduction to the game terrifying. First impressions are everything.
NS1's bhop is literally too harsh of a skill curve for the common person, and it's obvious UWE understands this and wants to rectify it by making skill based movement...based on skills...that you can perfect. Perfect leap timing, mid-air turn bites, etc. These things feel far more natural than the sharp exaggeration of engine exploitation bhopping sets for movement speed.
I've got faith UWE will figure it out on both fronts. Maybe both sides will need to compromise, and at that point, you as a competitive player, and me as a casual player, need to drop the elitism associated with who's right and who's wrong and enjoy the game for what it is.
Just to clarify, what's meant with "skill based movement" in the first place?
Is it the player's skill or the character's abilities (leap, flying, etc)? I am puzzled about this question since the first time I read flayra's post 'bout this.
ssjyodaJoin Date: 2002-03-05Member: 274Members, Squad Five Blue
I meant before NS was released.. talking older games such as quake, serious sam, unreal.. blah blah.
I understand and agree with the arguements that such abilities should be clearer to the new player, I'm just getting frustrated with some people here talking as if NS is the only game in history to have bunnyhop. Uninformed opinions should be kept out of the debate.
What we're trying to say is that even if it existed before NS, hopping never was planned to be central to the game. Then the game was released, people noticed marines and skulks zooming about, then they thought "hey, it's a nice fix to the game if we keep it only for the aliens". Then it evolved into "bunnyhopping is a big part of alien gameplay" Bunnyhopping, for NS, is a bad but working solution to a true problem. Let's just hope that they find a good and working solution for NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=1777084:date=Jul 5 2010, 04:28 PM:name=Slycaster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Slycaster @ Jul 5 2010, 04:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777084"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can tell you that in the 1.04 days, rarely anyone, ANYONE bhopped. Ask Steve, dudes old school and competitive.
.....if a new player were to join an existing NS server at this point, they would pretty much feel like this game is broken. They can't operate the way you do at all, and it makes the new player introduction to the game terrifying. First impressions are everything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I played 1.04. Never witnessed bhopping until years later. I've tried for countless hours to bunny hop but just cant get the hang of it. I'd love to play some NS1 but the skill gap is frustrating.
<!--quoteo(post=1777030:date=Jul 5 2010, 01:02 PM:name=ssjyoda)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ssjyoda @ Jul 5 2010, 01:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777030"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I miss the days of twitch shooters... can we go back to the 90's please? So many developers today are catering to this wider audience that wouldn't know what a twitch shooter is... complete with its bunny hopping and fast gameplay. Thats part of what made NS so great, it was one of the last few good twitch games about. Damn them console gamers!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh please. Look at this thread, and consider the message it's sending. Effectively, it's this: "BHop has always been around in fast paced games so therefore it must be in NS2 [OR UL FAEL AN MY CLAEN WIL BOYCOT UR SCRUB GAEM]"
This is going to be strange because I have difficulty putting this cognitive revelation into words, but I'll do my best:
Forget EVERYTHING you know about video games, step back, and take an outsider picture of this. The message people like you are sending is that there are elements in games that are inherently "good". This message is derived from two games - Quake and Starcraft - two games that were made when both genres were relatively young, there was infinite room to expand and explore in terms of technology and creativity, and just out of sheer ****ing chance these two developers in just about two years of each other *happened* to have stumbled upon the flawlessly perfect formula for FPS and RTS? What you are describing is if a chef, making strombolis in his kitchen, discovered cold fusion, proved string theory, and invented a time machine in the process, all by accident.
Game elements cannot inherently be 'good'. There is no magic box of game elements that developers sift through and pull out the ones with the biggest bonuses, plug them together, and *BAM* have a great game. They took a bunch of random ideas, some of them evolved from their previous projects, and threw them together. It was the players who decided that these games are the 'best' - they are <b>not</b> good games just because they're somehow "good games" - like some sort of god damn gaming diety proclaimed it to be so.
Put it this way - let's say Starcraft came out in the shadow of Total Annihilation - and TA was the more popular game, thus making Starcraft fade into the mists of time. And now on some forum somewhere, people would be screaming in rage that some latest RTS game doesn't have infinite streaming resources like TA did and that it's not a real 'pro' game because of that. In this alternate universe, RTS games aren't all about the same base-building resource-gathering that Starcraft and its ilk are. Are these people playing worse games that us, because in OUR universe Starcraft became stupid-popular and now instead most RTS games are about base-building and resource management?
No. That simply can't be true because game elements do not have any kind of inherent 'goodness' about them. Aluminium is lighter and more malleable than iron and more resistant to corrosion. These are demonstrable properties of the metal that exist because of its specific atomic structure. A game element has no sort of list of properties and you simply pick the best ones.
Now, how does this tie back into what I first said, where 'you people killed twitch'? Because you got into your heads that Starcraft *is* the best way to do RTS. You think Quake *IS* the best way to do FPS. Not because there's any kind of actual scientific reason for any of this - you just say it is (sounds like some religions). Because "you people" (being the twitch fanbase) decided that 'twitch' games cannot be twitch without this specific, unchanging, concrete list of demands, the 'twitch' genre has been <b>forced</b> into making the same stupid ###### game over, and over, and over. Whenever they try something new, you shriek like banshees and pirate the ###### out of the game or something - and because these games are unchanging, no NEW players ever want to get into them because "Oh look it's the same stupid game I played before, this is getting boring".
And thus, this ties into this idiotic notion that BHop *must* be in NS2 - because two games that came out when the world was young just happened to be more popular than their competitors. Fun fact? The main reason Starcraft took off was because of Battle.net and the map editor (slash use-map-settings games). DragonBallZ games were infinitely more popular than any competitive scene. Neither of these elements have anything to do with the actual core gameplay itself.
To torture yet another analogy, what you are basically doing is ###### that Pink Floyd or Jimi Hendrix make ###### music because they don't have enough harpsichords and massive Germanic opera choruses - after all, that's what was popular in 1400 Vienna!
If your argument FOR Bhop has anything whatsoever to do with your own ability to BHop *OR* any type of relation with 'This is how games were done before', you are wrong and your opinion is an idiot. And me? I'm with the crowd of sensible people who actually realize that NS1 was completely playable with BHop for a very, very long time.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited July 2010
Temphage man, calm down and take a step back from the argument yourself. You can't seem to accept that people have a preference for twitch gaming. You assume they are somehow defective in thinking this, or that an artefact of history cultured this preference in them. Whether this is true or not is not relavent: respect that this is what they prefer and stop preaching from the pulpit of enlightenment.
<!--quoteo(post=1777146:date=Jul 6 2010, 10:31 AM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Jul 6 2010, 10:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777146"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ten foot pole comes to mind even if I use the much superior metric system :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dammit, I wanna use the metric system....
Anyways, Temphage though does have good points underneath the rage.
I'm still fairly meh about bhop in versus out. However, one thing I'd like to point out is that bhop has been used as a way to enhance the skill ceiling, and some gamers really want that high skill ceiling. So, no, not everyone here is a moron and claiming we should do things just because other successes did it first blah blah blah. For example, Bhop would NOT make Call of Duty better. It just doesn't fit. However, people see NS2 as potentially a venues where bhop could fit the game style.
That being said, is this the kind of skill ceiling we want to have? As I already stated, I'd probably rather have a different system. There have been some interesting attempts noted in here and the I&S forums to integrate a skill based movement system to give another venue to practice in besides aim and map memorization, especially due to the melee aspect in NS. Bhop in its original incarnation is too unintuitive for people to discover and they have to research and learn it outside the game, making a nasty barrier to entry.
On a personal note, when I first played NS at my LAN parties no one bhopped. It was still fun. At the same time, we also tended to build TF in Marine Start to prevent Skulk rush, and typically electrified several nodes. =]
ssjyodaJoin Date: 2002-03-05Member: 274Members, Squad Five Blue
damn temphage.. calm down. What I meant by that statement is that part of the reason me, and I know others, are pro BH is because its part of what shooters used to be, 10 years or so ago. Spellman touched on it, the high skill ceilings. I found shooters to be much more challenging a decade ago. When I put on CoD or the new battlefield games, I find them extremely easy in comparison, and more luck driven.
I do completely agree that the movement abilities in NS1 weren't clear enough and that should deffinately be touched upon.. but not eliminated to cater to the new generation of gamers. That is just my opinion but I get that things change and we all have to live with that.
Oh, and I'd never say Hendrix was anything but the greatest guitarist ever. Pink Floyd... I have to be in the mood for.
<!--quoteo(post=1777138:date=Jul 6 2010, 10:37 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (puzl @ Jul 6 2010, 10:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777138"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Temphage man, calm down and take a step back from the argument yourself. You can't seem to accept that people have a preference for twitch gaming. You assume they are somehow defective in thinking this, or that an artefact of history cultured this preference in them. Whether this is true or not is not relavent: respect that this is what they prefer and stop preaching from the pulpit of enlightenment.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You've obviously never read one of his posts before.
With leap now being a hive 1 ability, i don't even see why most people would even care much about bunny hopping. Knowing how I play when I have leap,i rarely bunnyhop, so much quicker and easier to evade marines. As long as the Kharaa flashlight and walljumping are still in, i'd be so happy =) (any news on those btw??) Oh and ahh yess, the days of EC and TAU, sYn and egc, [TE]... I actually can't remember much about when I and/or clans began starting to bunnyhop..
<!--quoteo(post=1777090:date=Jul 6 2010, 12:37 AM:name=Cereal_KillR)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cereal_KillR @ Jul 6 2010, 12:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777090"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bunnyhopping, for NS, is a bad but working solution to a true problem. Let's just hope that they find a good and working solution for NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1777199:date=Jul 6 2010, 05:43 PM:name=ssjyoda)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ssjyoda @ Jul 6 2010, 05:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777199"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->damn temphage.. calm down. What I meant by that statement is that part of the reason me, and I know others, are pro BH is because its part of what shooters used to be, 10 years or so ago. Spellman touched on it, the high skill ceilings. I found shooters to be much more challenging a decade ago. When I put on CoD or the new battlefield games, I find them extremely easy in comparison, and more luck driven.
I do completely agree that the movement abilities in NS1 weren't clear enough and that should deffinately be touched upon.. but not eliminated to cater to the new generation of gamers. That is just my opinion but I get that things change and we all have to live with that.
Oh, and I'd never say Hendrix was anything but the greatest guitarist ever. Pink Floyd... I have to be in the mood for.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Everything Temphage says is right. Just because it used to be part of games doesn't mean it should be.
I played battlefield 2142 on a server that banned jumping for evasive manuvers other than jumping over obstacles, because its dumb, unrealistic and glitchy. The server was 10000000000000000000000000x better to play on than any other server and turned a mediocree game into an amazing one. The problem was that bhopping and throwing mines became the number strat in the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1777138:date=Jul 6 2010, 04:37 PM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (puzl @ Jul 6 2010, 04:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777138"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Temphage man, calm down and take a step back from the argument yourself. You can't seem to accept that people have a preference for twitch gaming. You assume they are somehow defective in thinking this, or that an artefact of history cultured this preference in them. Whether this is true or not is not relavent: respect that this is what they prefer and stop preaching from the pulpit of enlightenment.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And you folks seem unable to accept that twitch gaming is in no way related to bunny hopping. unless you really mean twitching - the MOUSE like a retarded epileptic on the old coke receipt (with cokaine).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Leap costs energy too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And defending <b>UNINTENDED</b>bugs as feature does too. Save energy, make the world a greener place.
<!--quoteo(post=1777229:date=Jul 6 2010, 09:37 PM:name=Lt_Hendrickson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lt_Hendrickson @ Jul 6 2010, 09:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777229"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I played battlefield 2142 on a server that banned jumping for evasive manuvers other than jumping over obstacles, because its dumb, unrealistic and glitchy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heh. Or "dolphin diving" in BF1942 and BF2. People can be ambivalent on UCB spawn camping or other cheese but there is an undeniably vast hatred for dolphin diving.
a good read about a game with a similar movement skill that originated as an exploit. The developers added it back in after removing it. <a href="http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=124399" target="_blank">http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessag...topic_id=124399</a>
It's certainly interesting how many of the higher end play features start as bugs. Probably the fact that inuitiviness isn't a requirement has something to do with it, but are there any other connections to the bug nature?
<!--quoteo(post=1777251:date=Jul 7 2010, 08:03 AM:name=Pyromaniac)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pyromaniac @ Jul 7 2010, 08:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777251"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->a good read about a game with a similar movement skill that originated as an exploit. The developers added it back in after removing it. <a href="http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=124399" target="_blank">http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessag...topic_id=124399</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nice! That pretty much sums the current condition of NS 1 up, except NS is a shrinking community due to age and not an expanding one as GunZ was. If the code that allows for bhopping was 'fixed' in 2005 we wouldnt have a few hundred players still going at it.
<!--quoteo(post=1777276:date=Jul 7 2010, 06:10 AM:name=RobB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobB @ Jul 7 2010, 06:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777276"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Instead we might have a thousand or two. Also, GunZ has other problems than "Korean Style".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah.... Was just thinking that GunZ isn't a great example of a single feature that increases crazy complexity making it a hit. Just goes to show one single feature doesn't make or break a game. It's all about how the whole game plays instead.
Similarly, Call of Duty doesn't have bhop and it's doing phenomenally well on the PC and consoles. Similarly Bad Company 2 has been doing OK mostly due to epic fights and upgrades and such. Conversely Quake Live and Warsow aren't giant hits even though they are perhaps the most faithful recreations/extensions of Quake 3, bhop being a central and explicitly taught feature of their games. I mean, they have tutorials on it, and Warsow made bhop and wall jump a giant part of the game.
Comments
In fact, the spawn of competitive NS started from EC vs TAU way way back in the day with players like SentrySteve. Beyond 2005 NS's scene may have evolved, and that's great. But I'm telling you that NS without bhopping was still an incredibly fun, immerse, balanced game in the hands of casual playing mixed in with those who just natural excel at shooters, like Steve.
Your definition of a key feature is in fact, a very minor feature of making NS a fun, atmospheric, entertaining game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps, you were fortuned enough to find a low skilled server, nobody desiring to get better, friendly place where you could get your daily kicks. Guess what, thats not what im interested, I have been playing since 1.04 start and bh had been since maybe even before a main component in both alien and marine play. The fact that movement and aiming while at it can be so challenging to master and truthfully affects your performance is rather rare. I dont know what it is that drive people into hating bh, nostalgia from time when there was no good players or simple laziness to see any effort.
Our views are clearly different I wish to see competitive, long lasting game with excellent gameplay while you seem to prefer visual simple casual experience. Perhaps thats why I'm here raging it out here.
So sure, bunny hopping is currently an important part of the game, but it was never actually part of the game design.
That said, Slycaster's point stands. We hardly know anything about NS2 and the little bits we do know make it clear that NS2 will have some significant changes. Just imagine if skulks had leap at their first hive in NS1. The game would be broken.
I understand that there's nothing to really talk about until the game is out but theorycrafting why NS2 is going to suck without knowing anything about NS2 is silly. Take my approach. It's the more laid back "I hope we see some movement skill somewhere in the game." You'll sleep better at night and those nightmares of you feverishly replying to other people's theorycraft with your own may finally go away.
So sure, bunny hopping is currently an important part of the game, but it was never actually part of the game design.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Apparently bunny hopping was and is a part of NS1's current game design.
You are correct in saying that the game can be fun without bunnyhopping. However, bunny hopping does add something to the complexity of the game, that is undeniable. That is takes practice to perfect and also increases complexity lends to the upper skill divisions of the community. But to say NS1 is absolutely nothing without bunny hopping would be asinine.
From start to finish of playtesting before release it never really was an issue. No playtester was really competitive in other hl engine based mod circles for them to care about it's engine exploitations. NS just happened to not limit your movement upon jumping like DoD and other mods, because it wasn't the right thing to do for the gameplay in general. bhopping was never really "meant" to be in the game, Flay just didn't want a jump slow down or any variation and naturally, this opened doors to the ability to bhop. I can tell you that in the 1.04 days, rarely anyone, ANYONE bhopped. Ask Steve, dudes old school and competitive.
Unfortunately for shooters, there isn't an easy way to rank and file good and bad players like leagues in RTS games. Ultimately you find people gravitate to server communities which ultimately are the best solution for this. However, even though NS isn't the best example at the moment, but if a new player were to join an existing NS server at this point, they would pretty much feel like this game is broken. They can't operate the way you do at all, and it makes the new player introduction to the game terrifying. First impressions are everything.
NS1's bhop is literally too harsh of a skill curve for the common person, and it's obvious UWE understands this and wants to rectify it by making skill based movement...based on skills...that you can perfect. Perfect leap timing, mid-air turn bites, etc. These things feel far more natural than the sharp exaggeration of engine exploitation bhopping sets for movement speed.
I've got faith UWE will figure it out on both fronts. Maybe both sides will need to compromise, and at that point, you as a competitive player, and me as a casual player, need to drop the elitism associated with who's right and who's wrong and enjoy the game for what it is.
Is it the player's skill or the character's abilities (leap, flying, etc)?
I am puzzled about this question since the first time I read flayra's post 'bout this.
I understand and agree with the arguements that such abilities should be clearer to the new player, I'm just getting frustrated with some people here talking as if NS is the only game in history to have bunnyhop. Uninformed opinions should be kept out of the debate.
Bunnyhopping, for NS, is a bad but working solution to a true problem. Let's just hope that they find a good and working solution for NS2.
.....if a new player were to join an existing NS server at this point, they would pretty much feel like this game is broken. They can't operate the way you do at all, and it makes the new player introduction to the game terrifying. First impressions are everything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I played 1.04. Never witnessed bhopping until years later. I've tried for countless hours to bunny hop but just cant get the hang of it. I'd love to play some NS1 but the skill gap is frustrating.
So many developers today are catering to this wider audience that wouldn't know what a twitch shooter is... complete with its bunny hopping and fast gameplay. Thats part of what made NS so great, it was one of the last few good twitch games about. Damn them console gamers!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh please. Look at this thread, and consider the message it's sending. Effectively, it's this: "BHop has always been around in fast paced games so therefore it must be in NS2 [OR UL FAEL AN MY CLAEN WIL BOYCOT UR SCRUB GAEM]"
This is going to be strange because I have difficulty putting this cognitive revelation into words, but I'll do my best:
Forget EVERYTHING you know about video games, step back, and take an outsider picture of this. The message people like you are sending is that there are elements in games that are inherently "good". This message is derived from two games - Quake and Starcraft - two games that were made when both genres were relatively young, there was infinite room to expand and explore in terms of technology and creativity, and just out of sheer ****ing chance these two developers in just about two years of each other *happened* to have stumbled upon the flawlessly perfect formula for FPS and RTS? What you are describing is if a chef, making strombolis in his kitchen, discovered cold fusion, proved string theory, and invented a time machine in the process, all by accident.
Game elements cannot inherently be 'good'. There is no magic box of game elements that developers sift through and pull out the ones with the biggest bonuses, plug them together, and *BAM* have a great game. They took a bunch of random ideas, some of them evolved from their previous projects, and threw them together. It was the players who decided that these games are the 'best' - they are <b>not</b> good games just because they're somehow "good games" - like some sort of god damn gaming diety proclaimed it to be so.
Put it this way - let's say Starcraft came out in the shadow of Total Annihilation - and TA was the more popular game, thus making Starcraft fade into the mists of time. And now on some forum somewhere, people would be screaming in rage that some latest RTS game doesn't have infinite streaming resources like TA did and that it's not a real 'pro' game because of that. In this alternate universe, RTS games aren't all about the same base-building resource-gathering that Starcraft and its ilk are. Are these people playing worse games that us, because in OUR universe Starcraft became stupid-popular and now instead most RTS games are about base-building and resource management?
No. That simply can't be true because game elements do not have any kind of inherent 'goodness' about them. Aluminium is lighter and more malleable than iron and more resistant to corrosion. These are demonstrable properties of the metal that exist because of its specific atomic structure. A game element has no sort of list of properties and you simply pick the best ones.
Now, how does this tie back into what I first said, where 'you people killed twitch'? Because you got into your heads that Starcraft *is* the best way to do RTS. You think Quake *IS* the best way to do FPS. Not because there's any kind of actual scientific reason for any of this - you just say it is (sounds like some religions). Because "you people" (being the twitch fanbase) decided that 'twitch' games cannot be twitch without this specific, unchanging, concrete list of demands, the 'twitch' genre has been <b>forced</b> into making the same stupid ###### game over, and over, and over. Whenever they try something new, you shriek like banshees and pirate the ###### out of the game or something - and because these games are unchanging, no NEW players ever want to get into them because "Oh look it's the same stupid game I played before, this is getting boring".
And thus, this ties into this idiotic notion that BHop *must* be in NS2 - because two games that came out when the world was young just happened to be more popular than their competitors. Fun fact? The main reason Starcraft took off was because of Battle.net and the map editor (slash use-map-settings games). DragonBallZ games were infinitely more popular than any competitive scene. Neither of these elements have anything to do with the actual core gameplay itself.
To torture yet another analogy, what you are basically doing is ###### that Pink Floyd or Jimi Hendrix make ###### music because they don't have enough harpsichords and massive Germanic opera choruses - after all, that's what was popular in 1400 Vienna!
If your argument FOR Bhop has anything whatsoever to do with your own ability to BHop *OR* any type of relation with 'This is how games were done before', you are wrong and your opinion is an idiot. And me? I'm with the crowd of sensible people who actually realize that NS1 was completely playable with BHop for a very, very long time.
Dammit, I wanna use the metric system....
Anyways, Temphage though does have good points underneath the rage.
I'm still fairly meh about bhop in versus out. However, one thing I'd like to point out is that bhop has been used as a way to enhance the skill ceiling, and some gamers really want that high skill ceiling. So, no, not everyone here is a moron and claiming we should do things just because other successes did it first blah blah blah. For example, Bhop would NOT make Call of Duty better. It just doesn't fit. However, people see NS2 as potentially a venues where bhop could fit the game style.
That being said, is this the kind of skill ceiling we want to have? As I already stated, I'd probably rather have a different system. There have been some interesting attempts noted in here and the I&S forums to integrate a skill based movement system to give another venue to practice in besides aim and map memorization, especially due to the melee aspect in NS. Bhop in its original incarnation is too unintuitive for people to discover and they have to research and learn it outside the game, making a nasty barrier to entry.
On a personal note, when I first played NS at my LAN parties no one bhopped. It was still fun. At the same time, we also tended to build TF in Marine Start to prevent Skulk rush, and typically electrified several nodes. =]
I do completely agree that the movement abilities in NS1 weren't clear enough and that should deffinately be touched upon.. but not eliminated to cater to the new generation of gamers. That is just my opinion but I get that things change and we all have to live with that.
Oh, and I'd never say Hendrix was anything but the greatest guitarist ever. Pink Floyd... I have to be in the mood for.
You've obviously never read one of his posts before.
This.
So much this.
*Hugs Cereal_KillR*
I do completely agree that the movement abilities in NS1 weren't clear enough and that should deffinately be touched upon.. but not eliminated to cater to the new generation of gamers. That is just my opinion but I get that things change and we all have to live with that.
Oh, and I'd never say Hendrix was anything but the greatest guitarist ever. Pink Floyd... I have to be in the mood for.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Everything Temphage says is right. Just because it used to be part of games doesn't mean it should be.
I played battlefield 2142 on a server that banned jumping for evasive manuvers other than jumping over obstacles, because its dumb, unrealistic and glitchy. The server was 10000000000000000000000000x better to play on than any other server and turned a mediocree game into an amazing one. The problem was that bhopping and throwing mines became the number strat in the game.
And you folks seem unable to accept that twitch gaming is in no way related to bunny hopping.
unless you really mean twitching - the MOUSE like a retarded epileptic on the old coke receipt (with cokaine).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Leap costs energy too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And defending <b>UNINTENDED</b>bugs as feature does too.
Save energy, make the world a greener place.
Heh. Or "dolphin diving" in BF1942 and BF2. People can be ambivalent on UCB spawn camping or other cheese but there is an undeniably vast hatred for dolphin diving.
The energy saved by locking this thread would be just as beneficial ;)
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<a href="http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=124399" target="_blank">http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessag...topic_id=124399</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nice! That pretty much sums the current condition of NS 1 up, except NS is a shrinking community due to age and not an expanding one as GunZ was. If the code that allows for bhopping was 'fixed' in 2005 we wouldnt have a few hundred players still going at it.
Also, GunZ has other problems than "Korean Style".
Also, GunZ has other problems than "Korean Style".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah.... Was just thinking that GunZ isn't a great example of a single feature that increases crazy complexity making it a hit. Just goes to show one single feature doesn't make or break a game. It's all about how the whole game plays instead.
Similarly, Call of Duty doesn't have bhop and it's doing phenomenally well on the PC and consoles. Similarly Bad Company 2 has been doing OK mostly due to epic fights and upgrades and such. Conversely Quake Live and Warsow aren't giant hits even though they are perhaps the most faithful recreations/extensions of Quake 3, bhop being a central and explicitly taught feature of their games. I mean, they have tutorials on it, and Warsow made bhop and wall jump a giant part of the game.