<!--quoteo(post=1781218:date=Jul 20 2010, 07:03 PM:name=Kwil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kwil @ Jul 20 2010, 07:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781218"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So, and I'd like Teoh to comment on this if you can please as well.
My first idea was to have top speed and maximum acceleration be capped on the floor, maximum acceleration (though not top speed) capped on non-floor surfaces, and no cap at all while in the air. I think this would be a strongly skill based movement mechanic, with the skill being divided somewhat between map knowledge and ability to judge jumps from wall to wall, etc. This mechanic would also be able to be noticed and used rapidly by novice players.
A second idea is to provide a rapid burst of acceleration followed by deceleration upon landing from a jump. Time a second jump right and you maintain the higher speed from the acceleration. Time it wrong (ie, macro or mousewheel it) and a much lesser speed gain (or none at all) is achieved. A lot less deep than the full range of motions required for bunnyhopping, I realize, but far more intuitive.
Thoughts?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me see if i followed that:
It's a system where you want to start moving from a standstill on the floor, because acceleration while on a wall is reduced; when jumping and holding forward, you speed up above the normal groundspeed, but when landing on the floor you are pulled back down to ground speed again; however jumping and landing on a wall allows you to keep the speed you gained while holding forward in the air, and jumping from wall to wall without touching the floor allows you to continually increase speed? I think that's what you were getting at. It's an interesting system to think about, but you'll find there's issues if you try to merge that into gameplay.
The system works with the idea of continued forwards momentum, but if we're talking about regular movement instead of frictionless bouncing, momentum isnt really handled too well. Think about what happens if you want to do any sort of change in direction or dodging: if you have increased speed and you are running across a wall, if you want to change the direction you are running in while on the wall, even just a tiny shuffle to dodge a lamp or something... The way that is done by normal forward/back/left/right motion is simply by pressing in another direction. There is no real concept of momentum there because you are constantly under the strong effect of ground friction, and your motion relies on the idea of continually applying forward movement that overcomes the friction. In otherwords, 'maintained speed' doesn't really exist, you're generating the speed continually as you hold forward.
That isnt compatible with your idea of motion from the air being carried onto the wall, unless you did it as some sort of speed 'buff' that made all regular movement faster for a short period after landing from any jump. That again is a very binary effect and also leads back to the general problem of basic movement vs. rapid fire hitscan weapons, the best use of that speed is spazzing left and right strafe. If you took an alternative approach and drastically changed acceleration/friction for skulks to give the idea of inertia as you gradually accelerate forward, you then really lose the idea of any nimble dodging, you would probably have to then create a pre-scripted dodge ability just to let skulks manouver, and we already covered that.
I'm not sure if i explained that too well, so think of the way hopping handles its speed increase. Hopping is exempt from all friction, because as far as the game is concerned your time on the ground is 0, and there is no air resistance. All motion is maintained, and the airbrakes quirk allows you to redirect that motion, which means any speed you generate in the air can be redirected to move in a different direction as a dodge. It's this extra idea of momentum, the manipulation of it, and the generation of it by analogue control that can be practiced and developed, that makes hopping such a great mechanic.
Talking about getting people started with the technique so that everyone can do it to some limited degree, as said previously the jump buffering is the biggie for removing the barrier to access. Jumping on the mousewheel or scripting some jump spam is just bizzare and unnecessary, quake's buffering system is far superior. Since you were trying to learn the ropes and i just talked about shoddy training material in the last post, let me explain the mechanics in NS for the people who don't hop yet:
The very first thing you need to do before you think about speed or manouvering, is getting the bounce right so that you effectively hover without friction. If you try to do anything clever before you've got this down, the brief periods where you land or stick to the ground will mess the movement up completely and make it really hard to tell what exactly is going on. You need to jump instantly as you land, so that your time on the ground is 0. To practice this find a long coridoor, run forward and jump. After you jump release all movement keys, don't hold forward, and keep pressing jump as you land. Use MWheel or a script if it helps. What you want to see is continual forward bouncing without any loss of speed even though you are not pressing forward. If you're doing it as a skulk, make sure you're holding crouch as you reach the ground, otherwise the wall grab effect kicks in and sticks you to the floor briefly before you would otherwise land - this messes the motion up.
The Quake system of jump buffering removes this whole step, but once you have that down and can bounce down a coridoor without any loss of speed and without pressing anything other than jump, you can think about the next bit. Back to movement vectors. In NS if you're bouncing forward in the direction you're facing, and you hold down left strafe, you apply a very very slight left vector that gives you a tiny bit of acceleration to the side. It's practically unnoticable. If you turn the mouse while holding that strafe, you change the angle of that vector relative to your current motion. Now, quake physics have airbrakes, which means any vector that opposes your current motion is massively boosted, to allow you to press back and stop or slow yourself in the air. Think about your left strafe, and turn your mouse slightly to the left - the strafe is now acting at something like 91 degrees to your direction of motion, so it is just slightly opposing your motion. What happens is that tiny tiny vector suddenly becomes a massive pulling force that swings your motion to the left, untill the change in direction brings that vector back to a 90 degree angle again and it goes back to being irrelevant. If you keep on turning the mouse, that strong vector keeps dragging you and you'll pull yourself around in a circle, as you do this you will gain speed. The faster you turn, the quicker you accelerate up to a point where you 'oversteer', turn too fast and you lose speed instead. So there is an acceleration sweet spot, and generally you can tell if you've oversteered because your direction of motion will appear to come unlinked from your mouse turning.
If you look at it like this, you can see how it's possible to hop using just +forward if you want to, all you have to do is turn your view 90 degrees to your direction of motion, and press forward. The forward is now acting in the same way as your left strafe was, but now if you turn left a little you'll be turning while facing into the centre of the turn, instead of forward. You can hop with any combination of movement keys, which means you can hop while facing in any direction you like. Any speed you build up while turning is maintained as long as you keep bouncing, and you can then take that speed with you and manipulate it as you see fit. Try it, it is satisfying as all buggery.
<!--quoteo(post=1781353:date=Jul 21 2010, 07:00 AM:name=Saj)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Saj @ Jul 21 2010, 07:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781353"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but changing the FOV to see more than everyone else, scripting too shoot faster than you can click and scripting for 'crazy evasion' are all cheating in my book and have nothing to do with skill based movement like Bhing which while made easier with a jump script did not require it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
- FOV exploits were really impractical if you are talking about what I think you are. In NS1 You could set your view to third person while zooming that view INTO a first-person-ish position. Then using camera position scripts you could swing your camera out a set distance in front of you (so you are now looking at yourself from like 20 feet out) to see what's on the other side of a doorway. While this sounds like an incredible cheat, it was actually terrible. While just running around, your character model would constantly be entering and leaving your field of vision, blocking your view of everything. So much so that you would be an idiot for trying to use the cheat to your advantage. If i remember correctly, you had to load up the game in third person mode to get it to work, so switching back and forth between "cheat mode" and classic first person wasn't possible.
- Pistol scripts are the biggest non-issue in NS history. What most people don't know is that you can actually shoot faster w/o a script, with the added benefit of having perfect control of the number of bullets you want to fire.
- I was never aware of any "crazy evasion" script. It sounds pretty impractical.
The only script I <i>ever</i> found to be of any advantage whatsoever (so far that you simply could NOT do it without a script) was the wiggle walk script which basically made rapid, alternating mini-strafes to boost walking speed. You could technically do it without the script, but it was a night and day difference. Something like that i think should not make it to the sequel. However I do believe that continuous jumping should be included. Once jumping is out of the way, bhopping is incredibly easy to learn.
Okay, normally we have an acceleration rate, and a top speed.
I'm suggesting that we add a max-acceleration.. maximum accelerable speed? That's independent from the other two variables.
Top speed is only capped on the floor. Max-acceleration is the highest speed you can accelerate to under your own power. This is capped on the walls and ceiling, and if capped on the floor, redundant with top speed. Acceleration rate remains the same whether on floor, ceiling, wall, and perhaps even air (or maybe it goes up as you fall.. who knows)
So you could start out on a wall and accelerate just as rapidly, but only to the normal top-speed. However if you gained more speed than that, such as from falling or jumping, landing on the wall wouldn't reduce it. You could still change direction on the walls and ceiling, and so long as you didn't come in contact with the floor, your total speed should remain the same. (Leading to some really weird crap now that I think about it if you're running in one direction along a wall at rocket speed and then do a 180 on the same wall.. maintaining the same rocket speed.
Perhaps an easier way to think about it is that, if you are moving (holding a movement key) you will only decelerate if you're on the floor. It seems to me this would encourage significant skill in moving based largely on map knowledge and the ability to judge jump range at varying speeds. Plus would encourage skulks to be on the walls and ceilings all the time, which I personally think is friggin' cool, (and which bunnyhopping lessens)
Then again, maybe you grok all that and I just didn't understand your answer.
<!--quoteo(post=1781473:date=Jul 21 2010, 02:24 PM:name=TeoH)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TeoH @ Jul 21 2010, 02:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781473"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ex·ploit (Ä›k'sploit', Äk-sploit') n. An act or deed, especially a brilliant or heroic one. See Synonyms at feat1.
Please don't start the debate about giving things silly names and then strawmanning it up by implying negative meaning of said names... I remember this forum doing the 'exploit' flamewar a good 7 years ago, you won't get anywhere, 10 posts in someone will link Sirlin which is the equivalent of a 50 hitlers post, lots of people will call eachother cheaters and then everyone in the thread loses. Stop trying to go there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"An exploit, in video games, is the use of a bug or design flaw by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers." Referenced from <i>Developing online games</i> published in 2003.
Using a word correctly is not implying a negative meaning by itself, your post actually creates the strawman by indicating that I had a negative meaning when I was simply pointing out why BH was a negative when applied to intentionally slow units like gorges. Reading the whole post would have shown I want fast movement available but not for intentionally slow classes.
<!--quoteo(post=1772999:date=Jun 1 2010, 02:51 PM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tjosan @ Jun 1 2010, 02:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1772999"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just want to point out that leap without aircontrol was already in the AvP games, and those played horribly compared to what we're used to.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can only talk about AvP 1 and 2, so maybe you are referring to the new one, but since you said games ...
In AvP 2 the leap worked really well for me, the mistake you might make with that is if you leap for a very long distance while trying to hit someone with that leap, this wouldn't work ofcourse.
But short distant leaps worked just fine, I never missed the "air control".
On a related note: I also liked the turning of the camera if you crawled on the ceiling, it just sucked having that in vents or alternativley have to push a button to prevent crawling inside vents.
EDIT: oops sorry, didn't realize this is already 12 pages long :S
Agreed, there needs to be some sort of realism established in order to be an immersive experience. There's no need to keep things in just because pro players need them to get an advantage over one another.
wall hack isn't cheating if everyone can do it. It's called motion tracking and scent of fear, you should try playing the game sometime. This topic is divided into the can and can not's. if you can bunny hop you love it and know the game would lose so much without it. If you cant its wtf so imba its so unrealistic (I'm too lazy/uncoordinated/uninformed to learn). Depends who you want to cater to, skilled players that supported your game from the beginning who are going to get bored with the linear game play. Or the average joe counterstrike/cod4 but with aliens approach which is going to be fun for about 2 days. One will be an actually fun game, the other MIGHT make you some money.
Whichever way they go, I'm just thankful for the first one, I spent a lot of time playing it and it gave me somewhere to go after tfc died in New Zealand.
The fact is there's loads of active point and click fps games. At the moment there's no competition for a movement/skill based game.
<!--quoteo(post=1781524:date=Jul 22 2010, 12:16 AM:name=Littlegorge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Littlegorge @ Jul 22 2010, 12:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781524"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->wall hack isn't cheating if everyone can do it. It's called motion tracking and scent of fear, you should try playing the game sometime. This topic is divided into the can and can not's. if you can bunny hop you love it and know the game would lose so much without it. If you cant its wtf so imba its so unrealistic (I'm too lazy/uncoordinated/uninformed to learn). Depends who you want to cater to, skilled players that supported your game from the beginning who are going to get bored with the linear game play. Or the average joe counterstrike/cod4 but with aliens approach which is going to be fun for about 2 days. One will be an actually fun game, the other MIGHT make you some money.
Whichever way they go, I'm just thankful for the first one, I spent a lot of time playing it and it gave me somewhere to go after tfc died in New Zealand.
The fact is there's loads of active point and click fps games. At the moment there's no competition for a movement/skill based game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not quite true Ive been able to BH since the betas of CS and I think removing it from CS was a terrible idea, however in NS I think its only suited to aliens to give people a way of counteracting some of the contrast in difficulty in playing each side. Marines team has always been quite easy because its basicaly like others FPS that people have played/practised for years wheres as aliens has always been a hard/unfamilar team to play well, BHing gives them a way of evening it out ( althought I wont be too upset if I cant BH as a silent celerity onos anymore because it was so OP it wasnt true).
<!--quoteo(post=1781516:date=Jul 22 2010, 08:50 AM:name=UnfocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (UnfocusedWolf @ Jul 22 2010, 08:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781516"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Agreed, there needs to be some sort of realism established in order to be an immersive experience. There's no need to keep things in just because pro players need them to get an advantage over one another.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I find statements such as this to be extremely frustrating. Sure Immersion may be important for you, but this is not what made ns1 great. NS1 was great because of its speed, complexity and strategy. If the devs made NS2 so that it suited people such as yourself then it would be really enjoyable until the new wow factor wore off, at which time you would drop it for the next new game.
To make NS2 a long term success it needs to focus on gameplay (along a similar line of NS1) and not on being 100% accurate in order to suit your immersive desires.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1781484:date=Jul 21 2010, 09:09 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Jul 21 2010, 09:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781484"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow this thread is still going! Any conclusions yet, or has it turned into a yes-no battle :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1781687:date=Jul 22 2010, 10:36 AM:name=Narcil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Narcil @ Jul 22 2010, 10:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781687"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I find statements such as this to be extremely frustrating. Sure Immersion may be important for you, but this is not what made ns1 great. NS1 was great because of its speed, complexity and strategy. If the devs made NS2 so that it suited people such as yourself then it would be really enjoyable until the new wow factor wore off, at which time you would drop it for the next new game.
To make NS2 a long term success it needs to focus on gameplay (along a similar line of NS1) and not on being 100% accurate in order to suit your immersive desires.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mmm.. not quite so. Immersion is incredibly important, but I think we're confusing concepts here. A game does not have to be realistic to be immersive. 'Immersiveness' could rather be said to require player control and interaction with the environment, and interest to a degree that the user is immersed in his/her activity. I can without doubt say I get more immersed when I play games such as NS, CS, QW etc than I do playing the Battlefield series even though those games have sprint, look more realistic and have better graphics.
Graphics and realism has - and I dare say it - NOTHING to do with how immersive a gaming experience is. Hell most people who play chess get immersed, and seeing chess pieces as parts of an army is more than I can handle.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Well, the word means different things to different people.
Take Avatar as an example. Many people talked about how realistic it looked, but to me the characters were so shallow, and the story was so simplistic and trite that I just couldn't see past these flaws and the whole experience felt extremely shallow and contrived and therefore felt about as realistic as a bad soap opera.
Similarly, I think some people just can't get into a game that /at first glance/ appears to defy their basic expectations of how a game should appear. Things like rocket jumping, bunny hopping, an onos climbing a ladder and tweaking gfx down for stable FPS just seem really daft to them. There's no right or wrong here, there are simply preferences and expectations.
I love bhop and hope it stays. I was never very good at it because I didn't bother to learn it properly but that's beside the point. The fact that the game is so fast and split-second timing means the difference between life and death is part of what makes NS so good to me.
<!--quoteo(post=1781693:date=Jul 22 2010, 09:56 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (puzl @ Jul 22 2010, 09:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781693"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, the word means different things to different people.
As for the graphical immersion of hop movements, has anyone ever tried creating a more immersive form of it? I don't think I've seen anyone trying to match the animations for it. It's not like dogs trotted at full speed, it's more of a gallop movement they do.
Of course the air curve still looks pretty awkward, but I don't think there's any magical workaround for that unless it's completely dropped.
Comments
My first idea was to have top speed and maximum acceleration be capped on the floor, maximum acceleration (though not top speed) capped on non-floor surfaces, and no cap at all while in the air. I think this would be a strongly skill based movement mechanic, with the skill being divided somewhat between map knowledge and ability to judge jumps from wall to wall, etc. This mechanic would also be able to be noticed and used rapidly by novice players.
A second idea is to provide a rapid burst of acceleration followed by deceleration upon landing from a jump. Time a second jump right and you maintain the higher speed from the acceleration. Time it wrong (ie, macro or mousewheel it) and a much lesser speed gain (or none at all) is achieved. A lot less deep than the full range of motions required for bunnyhopping, I realize, but far more intuitive.
Thoughts?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me see if i followed that:
It's a system where you want to start moving from a standstill on the floor, because acceleration while on a wall is reduced; when jumping and holding forward, you speed up above the normal groundspeed, but when landing on the floor you are pulled back down to ground speed again; however jumping and landing on a wall allows you to keep the speed you gained while holding forward in the air, and jumping from wall to wall without touching the floor allows you to continually increase speed? I think that's what you were getting at. It's an interesting system to think about, but you'll find there's issues if you try to merge that into gameplay.
The system works with the idea of continued forwards momentum, but if we're talking about regular movement instead of frictionless bouncing, momentum isnt really handled too well. Think about what happens if you want to do any sort of change in direction or dodging: if you have increased speed and you are running across a wall, if you want to change the direction you are running in while on the wall, even just a tiny shuffle to dodge a lamp or something... The way that is done by normal forward/back/left/right motion is simply by pressing in another direction. There is no real concept of momentum there because you are constantly under the strong effect of ground friction, and your motion relies on the idea of continually applying forward movement that overcomes the friction. In otherwords, 'maintained speed' doesn't really exist, you're generating the speed continually as you hold forward.
That isnt compatible with your idea of motion from the air being carried onto the wall, unless you did it as some sort of speed 'buff' that made all regular movement faster for a short period after landing from any jump. That again is a very binary effect and also leads back to the general problem of basic movement vs. rapid fire hitscan weapons, the best use of that speed is spazzing left and right strafe. If you took an alternative approach and drastically changed acceleration/friction for skulks to give the idea of inertia as you gradually accelerate forward, you then really lose the idea of any nimble dodging, you would probably have to then create a pre-scripted dodge ability just to let skulks manouver, and we already covered that.
I'm not sure if i explained that too well, so think of the way hopping handles its speed increase. Hopping is exempt from all friction, because as far as the game is concerned your time on the ground is 0, and there is no air resistance. All motion is maintained, and the airbrakes quirk allows you to redirect that motion, which means any speed you generate in the air can be redirected to move in a different direction as a dodge. It's this extra idea of momentum, the manipulation of it, and the generation of it by analogue control that can be practiced and developed, that makes hopping such a great mechanic.
Talking about getting people started with the technique so that everyone can do it to some limited degree, as said previously the jump buffering is the biggie for removing the barrier to access. Jumping on the mousewheel or scripting some jump spam is just bizzare and unnecessary, quake's buffering system is far superior. Since you were trying to learn the ropes and i just talked about shoddy training material in the last post, let me explain the mechanics in NS for the people who don't hop yet:
The very first thing you need to do before you think about speed or manouvering, is getting the bounce right so that you effectively hover without friction. If you try to do anything clever before you've got this down, the brief periods where you land or stick to the ground will mess the movement up completely and make it really hard to tell what exactly is going on. You need to jump instantly as you land, so that your time on the ground is 0. To practice this find a long coridoor, run forward and jump. After you jump release all movement keys, don't hold forward, and keep pressing jump as you land. Use MWheel or a script if it helps. What you want to see is continual forward bouncing without any loss of speed even though you are not pressing forward. If you're doing it as a skulk, make sure you're holding crouch as you reach the ground, otherwise the wall grab effect kicks in and sticks you to the floor briefly before you would otherwise land - this messes the motion up.
The Quake system of jump buffering removes this whole step, but once you have that down and can bounce down a coridoor without any loss of speed and without pressing anything other than jump, you can think about the next bit. Back to movement vectors. In NS if you're bouncing forward in the direction you're facing, and you hold down left strafe, you apply a very very slight left vector that gives you a tiny bit of acceleration to the side. It's practically unnoticable. If you turn the mouse while holding that strafe, you change the angle of that vector relative to your current motion. Now, quake physics have airbrakes, which means any vector that opposes your current motion is massively boosted, to allow you to press back and stop or slow yourself in the air. Think about your left strafe, and turn your mouse slightly to the left - the strafe is now acting at something like 91 degrees to your direction of motion, so it is just slightly opposing your motion. What happens is that tiny tiny vector suddenly becomes a massive pulling force that swings your motion to the left, untill the change in direction brings that vector back to a 90 degree angle again and it goes back to being irrelevant. If you keep on turning the mouse, that strong vector keeps dragging you and you'll pull yourself around in a circle, as you do this you will gain speed. The faster you turn, the quicker you accelerate up to a point where you 'oversteer', turn too fast and you lose speed instead. So there is an acceleration sweet spot, and generally you can tell if you've oversteered because your direction of motion will appear to come unlinked from your mouse turning.
If you look at it like this, you can see how it's possible to hop using just +forward if you want to, all you have to do is turn your view 90 degrees to your direction of motion, and press forward. The forward is now acting in the same way as your left strafe was, but now if you turn left a little you'll be turning while facing into the centre of the turn, instead of forward. You can hop with any combination of movement keys, which means you can hop while facing in any direction you like. Any speed you build up while turning is maintained as long as you keep bouncing, and you can then take that speed with you and manipulate it as you see fit. Try it, it is satisfying as all buggery.
- FOV exploits were really impractical if you are talking about what I think you are. In NS1 You could set your view to third person while zooming that view INTO a first-person-ish position. Then using camera position scripts you could swing your camera out a set distance in front of you (so you are now looking at yourself from like 20 feet out) to see what's on the other side of a doorway. While this sounds like an incredible cheat, it was actually terrible. While just running around, your character model would constantly be entering and leaving your field of vision, blocking your view of everything. So much so that you would be an idiot for trying to use the cheat to your advantage. If i remember correctly, you had to load up the game in third person mode to get it to work, so switching back and forth between "cheat mode" and classic first person wasn't possible.
- Pistol scripts are the biggest non-issue in NS history. What most people don't know is that you can actually shoot faster w/o a script, with the added benefit of having perfect control of the number of bullets you want to fire.
- I was never aware of any "crazy evasion" script. It sounds pretty impractical.
The only script I <i>ever</i> found to be of any advantage whatsoever (so far that you simply could NOT do it without a script) was the wiggle walk script which basically made rapid, alternating mini-strafes to boost walking speed. You could technically do it without the script, but it was a night and day difference. Something like that i think should not make it to the sequel. However I do believe that continuous jumping should be included. Once jumping is out of the way, bhopping is incredibly easy to learn.
Okay, normally we have an acceleration rate, and a top speed.
I'm suggesting that we add a max-acceleration.. maximum accelerable speed? That's independent from the other two variables.
Top speed is only capped on the floor.
Max-acceleration is the highest speed you can accelerate to under your own power. This is capped on the walls and ceiling, and if capped on the floor, redundant with top speed.
Acceleration rate remains the same whether on floor, ceiling, wall, and perhaps even air (or maybe it goes up as you fall.. who knows)
So you could start out on a wall and accelerate just as rapidly, but only to the normal top-speed. However if you gained more speed than that, such as from falling or jumping, landing on the wall wouldn't reduce it. You could still change direction on the walls and ceiling, and so long as you didn't come in contact with the floor, your total speed should remain the same. (Leading to some really weird crap now that I think about it if you're running in one direction along a wall at rocket speed and then do a 180 on the same wall.. maintaining the same rocket speed.
Perhaps an easier way to think about it is that, if you are moving (holding a movement key) you will only decelerate if you're on the floor. It seems to me this would encourage significant skill in moving based largely on map knowledge and the ability to judge jump range at varying speeds. Plus would encourage skulks to be on the walls and ceilings all the time, which I personally think is friggin' cool, (and which bunnyhopping lessens)
Then again, maybe you grok all that and I just didn't understand your answer.
n. An act or deed, especially a brilliant or heroic one. See Synonyms at feat1.
Please don't start the debate about giving things silly names and then strawmanning it up by implying negative meaning of said names... I remember this forum doing the 'exploit' flamewar a good 7 years ago, you won't get anywhere, 10 posts in someone will link Sirlin which is the equivalent of a 50 hitlers post, lots of people will call eachother cheaters and then everyone in the thread loses. Stop trying to go there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"An exploit, in video games, is the use of a bug or design flaw by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers." Referenced from <i>Developing online games</i> published in 2003.
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploit_%28online_gaming%29" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploit_%28online_gaming%29</a>
Using a word correctly is not implying a negative meaning by itself, your post actually creates the strawman by indicating that I had a negative meaning when I was simply pointing out why BH was a negative when applied to intentionally slow units like gorges. Reading the whole post would have shown I want fast movement available but not for intentionally slow classes.
I can only talk about AvP 1 and 2, so maybe you are referring to the new one, but since you said games ...
In AvP 2 the leap worked really well for me, the mistake you might make with that is if you leap for a very long distance while trying to hit someone with that leap, this wouldn't work ofcourse.
But short distant leaps worked just fine, I never missed the "air control".
On a related note: I also liked the turning of the camera if you crawled on the ceiling, it just sucked having that in vents or alternativley have to push a button to prevent crawling inside vents.
EDIT: oops sorry, didn't realize this is already 12 pages long :S
This topic is divided into the can and can not's. if you can bunny hop you love it and know the game would lose so much without it. If you cant its wtf so imba its so unrealistic (I'm too lazy/uncoordinated/uninformed to learn). Depends who you want to cater to, skilled players that supported your game from the beginning who are going to get bored with the linear game play. Or the average joe counterstrike/cod4 but with aliens approach which is going to be fun for about 2 days. One will be an actually fun game, the other MIGHT make you some money.
Whichever way they go, I'm just thankful for the first one, I spent a lot of time playing it and it gave me somewhere to go after tfc died in New Zealand.
The fact is there's loads of active point and click fps games. At the moment there's no competition for a movement/skill based game.
This topic is divided into the can and can not's. if you can bunny hop you love it and know the game would lose so much without it. If you cant its wtf so imba its so unrealistic (I'm too lazy/uncoordinated/uninformed to learn). Depends who you want to cater to, skilled players that supported your game from the beginning who are going to get bored with the linear game play. Or the average joe counterstrike/cod4 but with aliens approach which is going to be fun for about 2 days. One will be an actually fun game, the other MIGHT make you some money.
Whichever way they go, I'm just thankful for the first one, I spent a lot of time playing it and it gave me somewhere to go after tfc died in New Zealand.
The fact is there's loads of active point and click fps games. At the moment there's no competition for a movement/skill based game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not quite true Ive been able to BH since the betas of CS and I think removing it from CS was a terrible idea, however in NS I think its only suited to aliens to give people a way of counteracting some of the contrast in difficulty in playing each side. Marines team has always been quite easy because its basicaly like others FPS that people have played/practised for years wheres as aliens has always been a hard/unfamilar team to play well, BHing gives them a way of evening it out ( althought I wont be too upset if I cant BH as a silent celerity onos anymore because it was so OP it wasnt true).
I find statements such as this to be extremely frustrating. Sure Immersion may be important for you, but this is not what made ns1 great. NS1 was great because of its speed, complexity and strategy. If the devs made NS2 so that it suited people such as yourself then it would be really enjoyable until the new wow factor wore off, at which time you would drop it for the next new game.
To make NS2 a long term success it needs to focus on gameplay (along a similar line of NS1) and not on being 100% accurate in order to suit your immersive desires.
Yes.. I mean.. no!!!
To make NS2 a long term success it needs to focus on gameplay (along a similar line of NS1) and not on being 100% accurate in order to suit your immersive desires.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mmm.. not quite so. Immersion is incredibly important, but I think we're confusing concepts here. A game does not have to be realistic to be immersive. 'Immersiveness' could rather be said to require player control and interaction with the environment, and interest to a degree that the user is immersed in his/her activity. I can without doubt say I get more immersed when I play games such as NS, CS, QW etc than I do playing the Battlefield series even though those games have sprint, look more realistic and have better graphics.
Graphics and realism has - and I dare say it - NOTHING to do with how immersive a gaming experience is. Hell most people who play chess get immersed, and seeing chess pieces as parts of an army is more than I can handle.
Take Avatar as an example. Many people talked about how realistic it looked, but to me the characters were so shallow, and the story was so simplistic and trite that I just couldn't see past these flaws and the whole experience felt extremely shallow and contrived and therefore felt about as realistic as a bad soap opera.
I think peoples priorities will just differ. I can't get past cliché and predictable story lines when I watch a film, but I can happily watch old movies with bad sets and poor effects if there is depth to the characters and an intricate compelling script.
Similarly, I think some people just can't get into a game that /at first glance/ appears to defy their basic expectations of how a game should appear. Things like rocket jumping, bunny hopping, an onos climbing a ladder and tweaking gfx down for stable FPS just seem really daft to them. There's no right or wrong here, there are simply preferences and expectations.
I think peoples priorities will just differ. I can't get past cliché and predictable story lines when I watch a film, but I can happily watch old movies with bad sets and poor effects if there is depth to the characters and an intricate compelling script.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indeed. I've never managed to get immersed by a multiplayer atmosphere due to all the uncontrollable players running around. It's just a matter of time when someone decides to do something defying the common sense of the game. For example NS marines usually don't act like much of an organised bunch of professional soldiers. If it works for someone else, fine by me.
As for the graphical immersion of hop movements, has anyone ever tried creating a more immersive form of it? I don't think I've seen anyone trying to match the animations for it. It's not like dogs trotted at full speed, it's more of a gallop movement they do.
Of course the air curve still looks pretty awkward, but I don't think there's any magical workaround for that unless it's completely dropped.