<!--quoteo(post=1777199:date=Jul 6 2010, 04:43 PM:name=ssjyoda)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ssjyoda @ Jul 6 2010, 04:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777199"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I found shooters to be much more challenging a decade ago.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Could the reason be not because of a change in mechanics so much as in a change in your abilities? After all, it seems most people find things less challenging after doing them for a decade.
<!--quoteo(post=1776840:date=Jul 3 2010, 05:21 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Jul 3 2010, 05:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1776840"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Secondly, bhop is just retarded.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Firstly, let me take wild guess... you can't bhop? Big surprise there...
<!--quoteo(post=1776840:date=Jul 3 2010, 05:21 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Jul 3 2010, 05:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1776840"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm 100% convinced that the vast majority of players want BHop to stay in the game simply because they've already mastered that skill long ago, allowing them to leverage a massive advantage over newer players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Secondly, it's certainly true that the majority of players that want bhopping to stay are capable bhoppers, but only a very small amount have truly mastered it. I learned how to bhop 6 months ago and I'm still pretty bad at it but it so intriguing and fun to learn, practice, and use in real games that it makes me love NS1 more and more each day.
This isn't about people who can bhop wanting an advantage over those who can't... they're already better then you anyways with or without bhopping. It's because bhopping is F-ing AWESOME and it is one of the greatest and funnest things about NS1 and until you at least learn how todo it minimally, you'll simply be biased against it because it's a skill that you're too incapable or lazy to achieve on your own.
Lastly, people that can bhop are just more skilled then those who can't in many ways, they're going to beat you whether bhopping is an option or not, so don't think that taking away bhopping will change much in terms of making the playing field "more even", it will just make the game less fun and less interesting.
That being said I do realize that NS2 will be fundamentally different in so many ways that simply keeping NS1 style bhopping exactly the same in NS2 may not be the best idea. I just hate seeing so many people have negative misconceptions about bunny hopping simply because they can't do it and see it as an unfair advantage.
<!--quoteo(post=1776973:date=Jul 4 2010, 01:40 PM:name=RobB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobB @ Jul 4 2010, 01:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1776973"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Seriously, what fun is it to jump around like Mario had one 'shroom to much and thinks the floor is on fire now?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You obviously never quite got the hang of bhopping if you think this. Once you lock the technique down it is incredibly fun. Sometimes I'd rather bhop around on an empty map and pull complex maneuvers then actually play the game on a public server with other players.
<!--quoteo(post=1777268:date=Jul 7 2010, 07:03 AM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tjosan @ Jul 7 2010, 07:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777268"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the code that allows for bhopping was 'fixed' in 2005 we wouldnt have a few hundred players still going at it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1777276:date=Jul 7 2010, 09:10 AM:name=RobB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobB @ Jul 7 2010, 09:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777276"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Instead we might have a thousand or two.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's really no way to say this without it sounding like an insult, but if you think removing bhop in 2005 would have produced a longer living game now then you just showed how out of touch you are / how wrong your opinion is.
The way NS1's play style evolved made it unique experience, most easily compared to Starcraft. Both games changed as time went on and both take incredible amounts of skill to play. While bunny hopping is not required for a twitch based shooter, bunny hopping in NS1 definitely raised the skill level. Try bhopping down a corridor as a marine with a shotgun while 1 shotting and dodging skulks in all directions. It's hard but very rewarding when you take out 4 people.
There hasn't been a game since NS1's release (8 years ago I believe?) that even comes close to resembling NS1's gameplay. That's special; that's unique and the movement / possibilities that bunny hopping allowed for was a big contributor.
Saying "Yeah, but bunny hopping looks stupid, was too hard to do, unintended, and/or alienated new players" shouldn't even be a part of the discussion. Instead the discussion should be "how do we achieve what bunny hopping allowed for in NS2 while removing bunny hopping's flaws from NS1?"
<!--quoteo(post=1777345:date=Jul 8 2010, 01:46 AM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Jul 8 2010, 01:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777345"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While bunny hopping is not required for a twitch based shooter, bunny hopping in NS1 definitely raised the skill level. Try bhopping down a corridor as a marine with a shotgun while 1 shotting and dodging skulks in all directions. It's hard but very rewarding when you take out 4 people.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Was NS meant to be a game where a single marine should be able to <b>physically out-maneuver</b> and kill 4 enemy unit types that are designed for speed and agility?
<!--quoteo(post=1777345:date=Jul 8 2010, 01:46 AM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Jul 8 2010, 01:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777345"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"how do we achieve what bunny hopping allowed for in NS2 while removing bunny hopping's flaws from NS1?"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Consider this; maybe instead of developing deep twitch based gameplay mechanics, the goal of NS (on the marine side) is to develop deep squad based strategy and tactical thinking where the emphases is teamwork and combined arms.
I keep hearing this argument that NS2 will be boring or have no skill depth without BHing. What about the skill it requires to coordinate a squad of marines moving from place to place, attacking and defending, and the strategic depth of coordinating two squads of marines to accomplish your goals. If you want to talk about individual skill; how about the skill required to use combined arms (know what your role is based on your weapon and work in coordination with the squad), how to best position yourself when the squad is moving, attacking or defending, and when to weld and when to be at alert?
Maybe I am old and jaded and have been in too many debates about BHing but what I see these arguments boil down to is the BHers saying how much skill <b><i><u>I</i></u> have to be able to bunny hop</b> and how <b><u><i>I</i></u> can take out 4 skulks solo</b> and how <b><u><i>I</u></i> will be bored</b> of NS2 if there isn't BHing. It's all <b><i>me, me, me!!!!</i></b>
For those of us arguing for the removal of BHing we want to give team-based gameplay a chance to shine. We want to see what skills like teamwork and coordination can accomplish. Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the gameplay design behind the marine team in NS about teamwork? How does the ability to take an armoured marine, move him across the map solo faster then the enemy class that was designed for speed and agility, and taking out scores of aliens by himself promote teamwork?
The flaw in BHing Marines is that is compromises the design philosophy of the Marine team in NS.
<!--quoteo(post=1777351:date=Jul 7 2010, 09:40 PM:name=Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot @ Jul 7 2010, 09:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777351"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Was NS meant to be a game where a single marine should be able to <b>physically out-maneuver</b> and kill 4 enemy unit types that are designed for speed and agility?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you know how many players were able to do this in the entire NS community? I can count them on two hands. Literally. This was not common but that's what made NS1 so great. The only thing holding a player back was their own skill.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Consider this; maybe instead of developing deep twitch based gameplay mechanics, the goal of NS (on the marine side) is to develop deep squad based strategy and tactical thinking where the emphases is teamwork and combined arms.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You seemed to miss my point, so I'll say it again. There hasn't been a game since NS1's release (8 years ago I believe?) that even comes close to resembling NS1's gameplay. That's special; that's unique and the movement / possibilities that bunny hopping allowed for was a big contributor.
The skill in "coordinating squads and attacking / defending, knowing your role and firearm, etc" can be found in <i>nearly every single FPS recently produced.</i> There is nothing unique or special about this, and now, even some RTS's are relying on this (DOTA clones like HoN/LoL and CNC4 for example). Even if this was somehow new adding in a feature that allowed for bunny hopping like movement would only add to the gameplay.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For those of us arguing for the removal of BHing we want to give team-based gameplay a chance to shine. We want to see the what skills like teamwork and coordination can accomplish. Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the gameplay design behind the marine team in NS about teamwork? How does the ability to take an armoured marine, move him across the map solo faster then the enemy class that was designed for speed and agility, and taking out scores of aliens by himself promote teamwork?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bunny Hopping in NS1 in no way inhibits or prevents teamwork. Let's say you're lucky enough to have a player so skilled they're able to basically do the job of 2 or 3 people. How in god's name does that limit teamwork? It frees up more of the team to actually accomplish the non-combat related goals like taking and holding areas, capturing nodes, destroying nodes, building in base, etc. When it comes time to push you'll be further in the tech tree and have more resources plus a crack shot leading the way. Let's not make that situtation appear to be common either as even in NS1's prime there were not too many who could pull off what we're talking about.
The flaws you try to link to bunny hopping don't exist and you're grasping for straws to try to connect dots. It doesn't make sense.
<!--quoteo(post=1777345:date=Jul 8 2010, 03:46 AM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Jul 8 2010, 03:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777345"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Saying "Yeah, but bunny hopping looks stupid, was too hard to do, unintended, and/or alienated new players" shouldn't even be a part of the discussion. Instead the discussion should be "how do we achieve what bunny hopping allowed for in NS2 while removing bunny hopping's flaws from NS1?"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Indeed, I certainly hope that the movement marine and alien is good enough to distinguish players, that it really matters whether you can do it properly or just half assed. Most games are more aim and some luck based that in the end all that matters is who shoots first.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do you know how many players were able to do this in the entire NS community? I can count them on two hands. Literally. This was not common but that's what made NS1 so great. The only thing holding a player back was their own skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you saying what made NS great was all because of BHing? Why did the rest of us keep playing?
I'm not saying BHing isn't a skill. I'm not saying NS2 shouldn't require skill. I'm just saying NS2 should be about different kinds of skills.
And yes, BHing does compromise teamplay.
If all it requires is one marine to hold off most of the alien team, what is everyone else doing? Walking around the map to left click structures until they are built and then run over alien team when the adequate tech level is achieved? I mean gee, who needs a team of marines, you just need a BHer and a commander. He can place the structure, pop out of the command chair and go build it himself while the BHer owns the aliens. As far as I can see only one person is doing any playing and that person is the BHer.
It seems to me all you are interested in is what is fun for you.
If it is true (and I know it's not) that <10 people in the whole NS community can BH, then are you arguing that in order for NS2 to be as successful or a greater success then NS we have to include BHing.
If I make sense to everyone in the NS community except for those <10 BHers... I'm okay with that. :)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You seemed to miss my point, so I'll say it again. There hasn't been a game since NS1's release (8 years ago I believe?) that even comes close to resembling NS1's gameplay. That's special; that's unique and the movement / possibilities that bunny hopping allowed for was a big contributor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me just address this part too. I haven't missed your point, I get your point.
You say <10 people in the entire NS community can BH, and then you say BHing is a big contributor to what made NS special but only <10 people could do it... how does that make sense.
If you want a game that is special and unique because of the high movement skill ceiling, look no further than Warsow (http://www.warsow.net/) released in 2005. It was DESIGNED to be the ultimate twitch based competitive game... doesn't get more specialized then that.
What made NS unique and really special is the RTS/FPS hybrid design... not BHing.
<b>*LoL*</b> Why is it to BHers, all NS is about is BHing?
No you don't make sense. What you are saying is that someone with skill should not be differentiated with those without, because that's what bunnyhopping is: a differentiating skill. Your same example can be taken with aiming, as often a good CS player can HS 4-5 opponents in one go, so on a team of 5, what are the rest of the players doing?
First, your assumption is patently false: a good player/bunnyhopper will most often <b>not</b> be found playing with poor-skilled players, and will likely be in and play against teams where his individual skill is mitigated by those around him. Second, even if that were the case (i.e. pubstomping), to propose that a high-skilled player not be able to outperform many lower-skilled players is sheer soccer-mom stupidity that ruins every game except for Politically Correct.
And for the record, he never said there were less than 10 players who could bunnyhop correctly (there are many more than that), he said there are less than 10 that can do this while dodging a skulk and landing hits (still probably more than 10 that can do this, but about that number).
<!--quoteo(post=1777362:date=Jul 8 2010, 03:44 AM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Jul 8 2010, 03:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777362"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What you are saying is that someone with skill should not be differentiated with those without, because that's what bunnyhopping is: a differentiating skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would be quite a logical fallacy; there is no equivalence between skill and bunnyhopping.
In any case, bunnyhopping is not the only differentiating skill, it is very possible to favor good players with methods other than bunnyhopping. Mastering a sniper rifle in FPS gaming is a diffentiating skill. Are you implying that sniper rifles should be included in NS2?
<!--quoteo(post=1777370:date=Jul 8 2010, 06:03 AM:name=Cereal_KillR)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cereal_KillR @ Jul 8 2010, 06:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777370"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That would be quite a logical fallacy; there is no equivalence between skill and bunnyhopping.
In any case, bunnyhopping is not the only differentiating skill, it is very possible to favor good players with methods other than bunnyhopping. Mastering a sniper rifle in FPS gaming is a diffentiating skill. Are you implying that sniper rifles should be included in NS2?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Twisting works are we now? Absolutely there are other factors bh is only one of them, good players tend to do all things above average. Theres no such a thing as a good player who cant bh for example.
<!--quoteo(post=1777357:date=Jul 7 2010, 10:16 PM:name=Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot @ Jul 7 2010, 10:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777357"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you saying what made NS great was all because of BHing? Why did the rest of us keep playing?
I'm not saying BHing isn't a skill. I'm not saying NS2 shouldn't require skill. I'm just saying NS2 should be about different kinds of skills.
And yes, BHing does compromise teamplay.
If all it requires is one marine to hold off most of the alien team, what is everyone else doing? Walking around the map to left click structures until they are built and then run over alien team when the adequate tech level is achieved? I mean gee, who needs a team of marines, you just need a BHer and a commander. He can place the structure, pop out of the command chair and go build it himself while the BHer owns the aliens. As far as I can see only one person is doing any playing and that person is the BHer.
It seems to me all you are interested in is what is fun for you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It seems to me that you just get mad after getting killed by a good marine. If any of those skulks rushing the marine were a step above terrible he would have died. The only thing you're complaining about is a high skill ceiling.
That's not twisting words. It's actually saying "keep bh because it's what differentiates skill" as a rebuttal to "we should find alternate methods to differentiate skills"
That said, I don't agree with any of the two above parties. Bunnyhopping is not detrimental to teamplay. Bunnyhopping should not be kept simply because it's a skill element.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Theres no such a thing as a good player who cant bh for example.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't necessarily agree, but let's suppose so. Isn't my point exactly that (since 'good players tend to do all things above average') bunnyhopping is not THE discriminating tool?
The reason I don't want bunnyhopping isn't at ALL how hard it is. It's that I truly believe that learning it detracts from the real essence of the game. As someone who wants to see NS2 grow, I'm not thinking about how much better than the rest I'll become, I'm thinking about how players see the game experience.
edit: Also, Whiskey, bunnyhoppers don't make you godlike. If a single bunnyhopper is raping a whole team, the problem lies with his raging attitude and his presence on the wrong server.
<!--quoteo(post=1777380:date=Jul 8 2010, 07:17 AM:name=Cereal_KillR)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cereal_KillR @ Jul 8 2010, 07:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777380"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The reason I don't want bunnyhopping isn't at ALL how hard it is. It's that I truly believe that learning it detracts from the real essence of the game. As someone who wants to see NS2 grow, I'm not thinking about how much better than the rest I'll become, I'm thinking about how players see the game experience.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Have you ever tried bhopping? It isnt hard, randomness / decoying / fast wallhob indeed are. It is so ignorant to think that sprint / leap would make up for bh, its not like you leap continuesly it is only method of getting closer faster that doesnt mean its necesserely better. Leap is also used to gain easy momentum which is continued via bh. It is frustrating to think that certain people believe that sprint would be better alternative to marine bh. The randomness in jumping or using obsticles for extra jump is far better than straight faster movement (without a weapon). I know the engine test isnt really presentation of marine movement but it is very clumsy compared to NS1 or even Quakelive for that matter. People should really re-think their priorities, I'm certain there are more casual games, I dont want this to be one them.
Bunny hop, and team play have nothing todo with each other, one doesn't affect the other in any way.
The situation your describing, where one marine dominates a team of aliens, is the product of skill differences. Bunny hopping is a part of this skill difference, but by no means all of it. If the teams are evenly matched, a marine will not be able to consistently beat a larger group of aliens. He can pull if off some times, but not consistently. He is much more likely to get owned if multiple aliens team up on him, and the skill level of all players is even.
So, assuming all players are of even skill, including the presence of bhop... ie any player is likely to win an even encounter, how does bhop negatively affect team play? Why can't a team of marines who can all bunny hope (not that marine bunny hop is even that important a skill) also play as a coordinated team?
The answer is that they can both bunny hop and play as a team, which results in a very powerful team.
just as an experiment, I've go through and replaced all references in this quote to be references to good aiming... lets see how it reads!
<!--quoteo(post=1777357:date=Jul 7 2010, 06:16 PM:name=Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot @ Jul 7 2010, 06:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777357"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you saying what made NS great was all because of <b>Aiming</b>? Why did the rest of us keep playing?
I'm not saying <b>Aiming</b> isn't a skill. I'm not saying NS2 shouldn't require skill. I'm just saying NS2 should be about different kinds of skills.
And yes, <b>Aiming</b> does compromise teamplay.
If all it requires is one marine to hold off most of the alien team, what is everyone else doing? Walking around the map to left click structures until they are built and then run over alien team when the adequate tech level is achieved? I mean gee, who needs a team of marines, you just need a <b>Good Aimer</b> and a commander. He can place the structure, pop out of the command chair and go build it himself while the <b>Good Aimer</b> owns the aliens. As far as I can see only one person is doing any playing and that person is the <b>Good Aimer</b>.
It seems to me all you are interested in is what is fun for you.
If it is true (and I know it's not) that <10 people in the whole NS community can <b>Aim</b>, then are you arguing that in order for NS2 to be as successful or a greater success then NS we have to include <b>Aiming.</b>
If I make sense to everyone in the NS community except for those <10 <b>Good Aimers</b>... I'm okay with that. :)
Let me just address this part too. I haven't missed your point, I get your point.
You say <10 people in the entire NS community can Aim, and then you say Aiming is a big contributor to what made NS special but only <10 people could do it... how does that make sense.
If you want a game that is special and unique because of the high movement skill ceiling, look no further than Warsow (http://www.warsow.net/) released in 2005. It was DESIGNED to be the ultimate twitch based competitive game... doesn't get more specialized then that.
What made NS unique and really special is the RTS/FPS hybrid design... not Aiming.
<b>*LoL*</b> Why is it to Good Aimers, all NS is about is Aiming?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What was the point of this exercise? Well what you said is true of any skill in nearly any team play game, if one player is waaaay better than every one else because of that skill, team play isn't necessary. To a competitive player, bunny hopping is the equivalent to aiming for the alien side, so removing bunny hop would drastically lower the skill ceiling of alien play.
Also, I think few people are saying bhop is the perfect solution. It is very counter intuitive! What we are saying, is that bhop is a pretty amazing addition to a fast paced game, and if it, or something as good or better, isn't present in NS2, the game will suffer immensely in terms of competitive play!
<!--quoteo(post=1777370:date=Jul 7 2010, 10:03 PM:name=Cereal_KillR)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cereal_KillR @ Jul 7 2010, 10:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777370"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That would be quite a logical fallacy; there is no equivalence between skill and bunnyhopping.
In any case, bunnyhopping is not the only differentiating skill, it is very possible to favor good players with methods other than bunnyhopping. Mastering a sniper rifle in FPS gaming is a diffentiating skill. Are you implying that sniper rifles should be included in NS2?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> As TrC said you are merely twisting words and still couldn't be more dead wrong. Bunnyhopping is a movement skill, and if you possess it you are more skilled than if you did not. No one said it was the only skill (I already implied it wasn't if you bothered to read the example of being able to bunnyhop and dodge and aim). Sniper rifle? I don't even know how many red herrings you want to throw into this discussion, please learn to formulate a proper argument. Differentiating skills come in many different forms, in NS it happens to be predominantly bunnyhopping and twitch aiming. NS2 may have a different skill set, but the point of this thread is to make it clear that movement skills have always been a key <b>differentiating</b> skill in NS and should remain so in NS2; Furthermore, to argue that differentiating skills should be removed altogether is to propose that NS become a watered-down casual party-game-fest, and no one except a certain uninformed poster above wants to see this happen.
I think I already covered this once, so I won't go into full detail again.
Bunny Hopping is where you actually gain speed from air changing movement.
I doubt that will be in NS2.
But we will probably be able to just change direction while in the air, thus air-control for Skulks only(which I think is what they implied when commented on this).
*****
I'm in the camp of, if you want Bunny Hop or advanced/enhanced based movement, go the full way. Trimping, Circle Jumping, Bunny Hop(Uncapped = Unlimited Speed Gain), Ramp/Slope Speed-Gaining, and everything else you can think of(another example is Warsow Wall Bouncing).
Yeah, I doubt most of you could handle it, especially since the NS Marine Guns(LMG for example) basically function like the Quake Machinegun in terms of "recoil". There is none, just a cone of fire; bring on the twitch aiming skills.
You will lose if they implement anything of the sort by us OLDSKOOL VETZ. It is much better to take the route of Squad Teamplay, and focus heavily on that. Since NS lacked that quite a bit(individual skill mattered a lot; more so than teamplay). And yes that is in reference to all tiers of NS, public and competitive.
Many people are getting caught up in the debate of whether or not to have a skill based movement aspect, but let's not forget that skill based movement does not necessarily mean bhop. We can do better people.
<!--quoteo(post=1777389:date=Jul 8 2010, 08:16 AM:name=Jimyd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jimyd @ Jul 8 2010, 08:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777389"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You will lose if they implement anything of the sort by us OLDSKOOL VETZ. It is much better to take the route of Squad Teamplay, and focus heavily on that. Since NS lacked that quite a bit(individual skill mattered a lot; more so than teamplay). And yes that is in reference to all tiers of NS, public and competitive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Define teamplay, I dare say public has no teamwork, while in pcw it is the key. Whether it happens or is caused by luck is up to the clan but saying there is none, is a bit off.
<!--quoteo(post=1777385:date=Jul 8 2010, 05:57 AM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Jul 8 2010, 05:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777385"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Have you ever tried bhopping? It isnt hard, randomness / decoying / fast wallhob indeed are. It is so ignorant to think that sprint / leap would make up for bh, its not like you leap continuesly it is only method of getting closer faster that doesnt mean its necesserely better. Leap is also used to gain easy momentum which is continued via bh. It is frustrating to think that certain people believe that sprint would be better alternative to marine bh. The randomness in jumping or using obsticles for extra jump is far better than straight faster movement (without a weapon). I know the engine test isnt really presentation of marine movement but it is very clumsy compared to NS1 or even Quakelive for that matter. People should really re-think their priorities, I'm certain there are more casual games, I dont want this to be one them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes I know how to bhop (you pretty much have to if you've played as long as me). I just don't have an elitist attitude about it. I'm not arguing that bunnyhopping is better than sprint, however I am convinced that a game should rely on such a glitch. Again, it has nothing to do with the skill, it's about how it fits within the game. You think that the game's priority is to be competitive. I think the game's priority is that it should intuitively make sense. I think for example that players shouldn't get booted out of the command chair in NS2 because they went for turrets, because it makes sense to want to protect your base. I think shotguns shouldn't be the preferred weapon to take down enemy structures. I think a skulk should spend his life on the wall because he can.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As TrC said you are merely twisting words and still couldn't be more dead wrong. Bunnyhopping is a movement skill, and if you possess it you are more skilled than if you did not. No one said it was the only skill (I already implied it wasn't if you bothered to read the example of being able to bunnyhop and dodge and aim). Sniper rifle? I don't even know how many red herrings you want to throw into this discussion, please learn to formulate a proper argument.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Equivalence means A implies B and B implies A. Bunnyhopping implies skill, but skill doesn't imply bunnyhopping. It is very possible to have a game where skill shows, but where there is no bunnyhopping. Analogies are not red herrings. Bunnyhopping is a skill. It is not something that has to be essential to the NS2 experience. Sniping is a skill. It is not something that has to be essential to the NS2 experience.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 may have a different skill set, but the point of this thread is to make it clear that movement skills have always been a key differentiating skill in NS and should remain so in NS2; Furthermore, to argue that differentiating skills should be removed altogether is to propose that NS become a watered-down casual party-game-fest, and no one except a certain uninformed poster above wants to see this happen<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This I totally agree with. NS2 may have a different skill set (of which bunnyhopping doesn't have to be a part of) Movement skills should remain a key differentiating skill in NS2 (but not necessarily bunnyhopping) NS2 doesn't have to be watered down. Replacing bunnyhopping does not transform the game into the Raving Rabbids
<!--quoteo(post=1777397:date=Jul 8 2010, 01:17 AM:name=Cereal_KillR)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cereal_KillR @ Jul 8 2010, 01:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777397"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Equivalence means A implies B and B implies A. Bunnyhopping implies skill, but skill doesn't imply bunnyhopping. It is very possible to have a game where skill shows, but where there is no bunnyhopping. Analogies are not red herrings. Bunnyhopping is a skill. It is not something that has to be essential to the NS2 experience. Sniping is a skill. It is not something that has to be essential to the NS2 experience.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Analogies are red herrings when they are completely useless and serve no other purpose but distraction, as is the first sentence you listed there. No one has implied that bunnyhopping is the sole basis of skill in NS, yet you seem to be responding to some fictional point in my post, conjuring up first-order logic to address a non-issues in an attempt to appear relevant.
All we've said is that differentiating skills (preferably including movement) need to be a part of NS2, and somehow you took this to mean <u>all</u> such skills, including sniping? At this point I really don't know whether you are quoting me because you agree or disagree, but perhaps you had better just "can" the herring. It not only makes your argument bad form, but attempts to mine through association.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...NS become a watered-down casual party-game-fest, and no one except a certain uninformed poster above wants to see this happen.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know my stats say I joined in November 2006 but that is actually when my Account was recovered after a break. I have been here since the Beta and my original join date is July 2002. I have been in this community before there was 1000 members and I base my opinion on 5 years of experience from the Beta through 5 years of releases from 1.0 to 3.2... I left the community because I became disillusioned with the direction of NS, specifically the release of NS: Combat, which I believe undermined the development of the core idea of NS which is the RTS/FPS hybrid team based concept. That was the aspect of NS I thought was unique and special.
I heard every conceivable argument for BHing in NS and I have debated this with the top competitive players in NS so nothing is new here. I came to reaffirm what I know UWE knows... BHing has no place in the overall design of NS. I'm here to say; Charlie, Max, thank you for deciding not to including BHing in NS2 it is a great decision for the gameplay of NS2.
I'm not here to win an argument with you guys, the winner of this debate has already been decided by those who matter the most. I'm just here to support the direction UWE decided to take with NS2 because I truly believe it is the right decision.
I'm not against skill based movement, I'm against skill based movement that allows a vanilla marine to move faster, and out maneuver the unit type on the alien team that supposed to be designed for speed and agility. I never had any problems with Jet Packs in NS. On the back of a competitive player a Jet Pack is <i>absolutely deadly</i> with their accuracy and it is a fine demonstration of skill based movement that does not involve BHing.
I've made my point and voiced my support for UWEs decision. Thank you for reading my posts and whether you agree with me or not, I hope you give NS2 a chance even if it doesn't include BHing.
Tell me, then explicitly why you believe bunnyhopping HAS to be in the game factoring in the facts that:
-We both agree that bunnyhopping is only a skill among others -We both agree that it is not necessary to judge skill through bunnyhopping (alternatives exist) -We both agree that movement skill is not restricted to bunnyhopping. -We both agree that removing bunnyhopping does not make the game skill-less.
Also, please explain to me how the following sentence: "What you are saying is that someone with skill should not be differentiated with those without, because that's what bunnyhopping is: a differentiating skill." as a response to a post saying "let's remove bh because it demands skill" is not to be interpreted as "bunnyhopping is a differentiating skill. What you are really saying when you say that you want to remove bh because it requires skill is that you don't want to differentiate bad players from good ones."
-Bunnyhob is a relevant skill (both races) -No better alternative has been made since ns release, hard to believe they will come up with a better one. -Floor-rocketing instead ? -Removing bunnyhob would make game less skillful (unless better one is implimented) -^
there is a reason why new generation of games do not include bhopping. even it is a movement skill, it should not be anymore. have seen a lot of good players who do not bhop. to be honest, if you are a skilled player you won't lose your advantage that much if you are not able to bhop. STOP WHINING you all now bhopping is obsolete and should be removed and needs no alternative as it is some type of a glitch
<!--quoteo(post=1777427:date=Jul 8 2010, 02:36 PM:name=vsync)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (vsync @ Jul 8 2010, 02:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777427"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->there is a reason why new generation of games do not include bhopping. even it is a movement skill, it should not be anymore. have seen a lot of good players who do not bhop. to be honest, if you are a skilled player you won't lose your advantage that much if you are not able to bhop. STOP WHINING you all now bhopping is obsolete and should be removed and needs no alternative as it is some type of a glitch<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Theres a reason why new generation games are inferior, I get the impression you have no idea what bh is about. Those who thrive for better will obviously be above those who do not, point is whether the game will lose its value or not. Also a "good player" without bh is simply not good, I assume everyone above is cheater or exploiter? These kind of ignorant comments, I fear they really affect the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1777408:date=Jul 8 2010, 03:28 AM:name=Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot @ Jul 8 2010, 03:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777408"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not against skill based movement, I'm against skill based movement that allows a vanilla marine to move faster, and out maneuver the unit type on the alien team that supposed to be designed for speed and agility.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't need your back story, I already know what you're about from the posts you made (or rather edited beyond recognition). I can safely say you exaggerate skill simply because you lack it and as with the point above, and your other stories of great marine feats, they can only happen when a severe skill disparity exists. A vanilla rine does neither move faster nor out maneuver a skulk unless that skulk is seriously skill impaired. Whatever "experience" you claim to have is washed away with posts that exhibit all the same symptoms of a new player who joins his first pubstomp and cries about how everyone is "flying all over the place owning" him. Either you recognize that this is going to happen with <b>any</b> differentiating skill, or your argument is that there should be no such differentiating skills; if the latter, I suggest you look elsewhere than NS (perhaps Viva Pinata is due for a sequel).
<!--quoteo(post=1777409:date=Jul 8 2010, 03:30 AM:name=Cereal_KillR)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cereal_KillR @ Jul 8 2010, 03:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777409"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tell me, then explicitly why you believe bunnyhopping HAS to be in the game factoring in the facts that:<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I assume you are now quoting me without directly quoting me, and believe this is somehow license to put words in my mouth? Nowhere do I say that NS2 need include bunnyhopping, but I do point out that NS is and always was founded on movement and twitch skills, so if not bunnyhop, then a suitable differentiating movement skill will be required. Obviously this is not an easy feat and every replacement suggestion to date has been heavily scrutinized (including some of my own), so until something better can be found, I echo TrC's points as to why you can't replace something if you don't have something better to replace it with.
Comments
Could the reason be not because of a change in mechanics so much as in a change in your abilities? After all, it seems most people find things less challenging after doing them for a decade.
Firstly, let me take wild guess... you can't bhop? Big surprise there...
<!--quoteo(post=1776840:date=Jul 3 2010, 05:21 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Jul 3 2010, 05:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1776840"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm 100% convinced that the vast majority of players want BHop to stay in the game simply because they've already mastered that skill long ago, allowing them to leverage a massive advantage over newer players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Secondly, it's certainly true that the majority of players that want bhopping to stay are capable bhoppers, but only a very small amount have truly mastered it. I learned how to bhop 6 months ago and I'm still pretty bad at it but it so intriguing and fun to learn, practice, and use in real games that it makes me love NS1 more and more each day.
This isn't about people who can bhop wanting an advantage over those who can't... they're already better then you anyways with or without bhopping. It's because bhopping is F-ing AWESOME and it is one of the greatest and funnest things about NS1 and until you at least learn how todo it minimally, you'll simply be biased against it because it's a skill that you're too incapable or lazy to achieve on your own.
Lastly, people that can bhop are just more skilled then those who can't in many ways, they're going to beat you whether bhopping is an option or not, so don't think that taking away bhopping will change much in terms of making the playing field "more even", it will just make the game less fun and less interesting.
That being said I do realize that NS2 will be fundamentally different in so many ways that simply keeping NS1 style bhopping exactly the same in NS2 may not be the best idea. I just hate seeing so many people have negative misconceptions about bunny hopping simply because they can't do it and see it as an unfair advantage.
You obviously never quite got the hang of bhopping if you think this. Once you lock the technique down it is incredibly fun. Sometimes I'd rather bhop around on an empty map and pull complex maneuvers then actually play the game on a public server with other players.
<!--quoteo(post=1777276:date=Jul 7 2010, 09:10 AM:name=RobB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobB @ Jul 7 2010, 09:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777276"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Instead we might have a thousand or two.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's really no way to say this without it sounding like an insult, but if you think removing bhop in 2005 would have produced a longer living game now then you just showed how out of touch you are / how wrong your opinion is.
The way NS1's play style evolved made it unique experience, most easily compared to Starcraft. Both games changed as time went on and both take incredible amounts of skill to play. While bunny hopping is not required for a twitch based shooter, bunny hopping in NS1 definitely raised the skill level. Try bhopping down a corridor as a marine with a shotgun while 1 shotting and dodging skulks in all directions. It's hard but very rewarding when you take out 4 people.
There hasn't been a game since NS1's release (8 years ago I believe?) that even comes close to resembling NS1's gameplay. That's special; that's unique and the movement / possibilities that bunny hopping allowed for was a big contributor.
Saying "Yeah, but bunny hopping looks stupid, was too hard to do, unintended, and/or alienated new players" shouldn't even be a part of the discussion. Instead the discussion should be "how do we achieve what bunny hopping allowed for in NS2 while removing bunny hopping's flaws from NS1?"
Was NS meant to be a game where a single marine should be able to <b>physically out-maneuver</b> and kill 4 enemy unit types that are designed for speed and agility?
<!--quoteo(post=1777345:date=Jul 8 2010, 01:46 AM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Jul 8 2010, 01:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777345"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"how do we achieve what bunny hopping allowed for in NS2 while removing bunny hopping's flaws from NS1?"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Consider this; maybe instead of developing deep twitch based gameplay mechanics, the goal of NS (on the marine side) is to develop deep squad based strategy and tactical thinking where the emphases is teamwork and combined arms.
I keep hearing this argument that NS2 will be boring or have no skill depth without BHing. What about the skill it requires to coordinate a squad of marines moving from place to place, attacking and defending, and the strategic depth of coordinating two squads of marines to accomplish your goals. If you want to talk about individual skill; how about the skill required to use combined arms (know what your role is based on your weapon and work in coordination with the squad), how to best position yourself when the squad is moving, attacking or defending, and when to weld and when to be at alert?
Maybe I am old and jaded and have been in too many debates about BHing but what I see these arguments boil down to is the BHers saying how much skill <b><i><u>I</i></u> have to be able to bunny hop</b> and how <b><u><i>I</i></u> can take out 4 skulks solo</b> and how <b><u><i>I</u></i> will be bored</b> of NS2 if there isn't BHing. It's all <b><i>me, me, me!!!!</i></b>
For those of us arguing for the removal of BHing we want to give team-based gameplay a chance to shine. We want to see what skills like teamwork and coordination can accomplish. Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the gameplay design behind the marine team in NS about teamwork? How does the ability to take an armoured marine, move him across the map solo faster then the enemy class that was designed for speed and agility, and taking out scores of aliens by himself promote teamwork?
The flaw in BHing Marines is that is compromises the design philosophy of the Marine team in NS.
It's really that simple.
Do you know how many players were able to do this in the entire NS community? I can count them on two hands. Literally. This was not common but that's what made NS1 so great. The only thing holding a player back was their own skill.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Consider this; maybe instead of developing deep twitch based gameplay mechanics, the goal of NS (on the marine side) is to develop deep squad based strategy and tactical thinking where the emphases is teamwork and combined arms.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You seemed to miss my point, so I'll say it again. There hasn't been a game since NS1's release (8 years ago I believe?) that even comes close to resembling NS1's gameplay. That's special; that's unique and the movement / possibilities that bunny hopping allowed for was a big contributor.
The skill in "coordinating squads and attacking / defending, knowing your role and firearm, etc" can be found in <i>nearly every single FPS recently produced.</i> There is nothing unique or special about this, and now, even some RTS's are relying on this (DOTA clones like HoN/LoL and CNC4 for example). Even if this was somehow new adding in a feature that allowed for bunny hopping like movement would only add to the gameplay.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For those of us arguing for the removal of BHing we want to give team-based gameplay a chance to shine. We want to see the what skills like teamwork and coordination can accomplish. Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the gameplay design behind the marine team in NS about teamwork? How does the ability to take an armoured marine, move him across the map solo faster then the enemy class that was designed for speed and agility, and taking out scores of aliens by himself promote teamwork?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bunny Hopping in NS1 in no way inhibits or prevents teamwork. Let's say you're lucky enough to have a player so skilled they're able to basically do the job of 2 or 3 people. How in god's name does that limit teamwork? It frees up more of the team to actually accomplish the non-combat related goals like taking and holding areas, capturing nodes, destroying nodes, building in base, etc. When it comes time to push you'll be further in the tech tree and have more resources plus a crack shot leading the way. Let's not make that situtation appear to be common either as even in NS1's prime there were not too many who could pull off what we're talking about.
The flaws you try to link to bunny hopping don't exist and you're grasping for straws to try to connect dots. It doesn't make sense.
Indeed, I certainly hope that the movement marine and alien is good enough to distinguish players, that it really matters whether you can do it properly or just half assed. Most games are more aim and some luck based that in the end all that matters is who shoots first.
Are you saying what made NS great was all because of BHing? Why did the rest of us keep playing?
I'm not saying BHing isn't a skill. I'm not saying NS2 shouldn't require skill. I'm just saying NS2 should be about different kinds of skills.
And yes, BHing does compromise teamplay.
If all it requires is one marine to hold off most of the alien team, what is everyone else doing? Walking around the map to left click structures until they are built and then run over alien team when the adequate tech level is achieved? I mean gee, who needs a team of marines, you just need a BHer and a commander. He can place the structure, pop out of the command chair and go build it himself while the BHer owns the aliens. As far as I can see only one person is doing any playing and that person is the BHer.
It seems to me all you are interested in is what is fun for you.
If it is true (and I know it's not) that <10 people in the whole NS community can BH, then are you arguing that in order for NS2 to be as successful or a greater success then NS we have to include BHing.
If I make sense to everyone in the NS community except for those <10 BHers... I'm okay with that. :)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You seemed to miss my point, so I'll say it again. There hasn't been a game since NS1's release (8 years ago I believe?) that even comes close to resembling NS1's gameplay. That's special; that's unique and the movement / possibilities that bunny hopping allowed for was a big contributor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me just address this part too. I haven't missed your point, I get your point.
You say <10 people in the entire NS community can BH, and then you say BHing is a big contributor to what made NS special but only <10 people could do it... how does that make sense.
If you want a game that is special and unique because of the high movement skill ceiling, look no further than Warsow (http://www.warsow.net/) released in 2005. It was DESIGNED to be the ultimate twitch based competitive game... doesn't get more specialized then that.
What made NS unique and really special is the RTS/FPS hybrid design... not BHing.
<b>*LoL*</b> Why is it to BHers, all NS is about is BHing?
First, your assumption is patently false: a good player/bunnyhopper will most often <b>not</b> be found playing with poor-skilled players, and will likely be in and play against teams where his individual skill is mitigated by those around him. Second, even if that were the case (i.e. pubstomping), to propose that a high-skilled player not be able to outperform many lower-skilled players is sheer soccer-mom stupidity that ruins every game except for Politically Correct.
And for the record, he never said there were less than 10 players who could bunnyhop correctly (there are many more than that), he said there are less than 10 that can do this while dodging a skulk and landing hits (still probably more than 10 that can do this, but about that number).
That would be quite a logical fallacy; there is no equivalence between skill and bunnyhopping.
In any case, bunnyhopping is not the only differentiating skill, it is very possible to favor good players with methods other than bunnyhopping.
Mastering a sniper rifle in FPS gaming is a diffentiating skill. Are you implying that sniper rifles should be included in NS2?
In any case, bunnyhopping is not the only differentiating skill, it is very possible to favor good players with methods other than bunnyhopping.
Mastering a sniper rifle in FPS gaming is a diffentiating skill. Are you implying that sniper rifles should be included in NS2?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Twisting works are we now? Absolutely there are other factors bh is only one of them, good players tend to do all things above average. Theres no such a thing as a good player who cant bh for example.
I'm not saying BHing isn't a skill. I'm not saying NS2 shouldn't require skill. I'm just saying NS2 should be about different kinds of skills.
And yes, BHing does compromise teamplay.
If all it requires is one marine to hold off most of the alien team, what is everyone else doing? Walking around the map to left click structures until they are built and then run over alien team when the adequate tech level is achieved? I mean gee, who needs a team of marines, you just need a BHer and a commander. He can place the structure, pop out of the command chair and go build it himself while the BHer owns the aliens. As far as I can see only one person is doing any playing and that person is the BHer.
It seems to me all you are interested in is what is fun for you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It seems to me that you just get mad after getting killed by a good marine. If any of those skulks rushing the marine were a step above terrible he would have died. The only thing you're complaining about is a high skill ceiling.
That said, I don't agree with any of the two above parties. Bunnyhopping is not detrimental to teamplay. Bunnyhopping should not be kept simply because it's a skill element.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Theres no such a thing as a good player who cant bh for example.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't necessarily agree, but let's suppose so. Isn't my point exactly that (since 'good players tend to do all things above average') bunnyhopping is not THE discriminating tool?
The reason I don't want bunnyhopping isn't at ALL how hard it is. It's that I truly believe that learning it detracts from the real essence of the game. As someone who wants to see NS2 grow, I'm not thinking about how much better than the rest I'll become, I'm thinking about how players see the game experience.
edit: Also, Whiskey, bunnyhoppers don't make you godlike. If a single bunnyhopper is raping a whole team, the problem lies with his raging attitude and his presence on the wrong server.
Have you ever tried bhopping? It isnt hard, randomness / decoying / fast wallhob indeed are. It is so ignorant to think that sprint / leap would make up for bh, its not like you leap continuesly it is only method of getting closer faster that doesnt mean its necesserely better. Leap is also used to gain easy momentum which is continued via bh. It is frustrating to think that certain people believe that sprint would be better alternative to marine bh. The randomness in jumping or using obsticles for extra jump is far better than straight faster movement (without a weapon). I know the engine test isnt really presentation of marine movement but it is very clumsy compared to NS1 or even Quakelive for that matter. People should really re-think their priorities, I'm certain there are more casual games, I dont want this to be one them.
Bunny hop, and team play have nothing todo with each other, one doesn't affect the other in any way.
The situation your describing, where one marine dominates a team of aliens, is the product of skill differences. Bunny hopping is a part of this skill difference, but by no means all of it. If the teams are evenly matched, a marine will not be able to consistently beat a larger group of aliens. He can pull if off some times, but not consistently. He is much more likely to get owned if multiple aliens team up on him, and the skill level of all players is even.
So, assuming all players are of even skill, including the presence of bhop... ie any player is likely to win an even encounter, how does bhop negatively affect team play? Why can't a team of marines who can all bunny hope (not that marine bunny hop is even that important a skill) also play as a coordinated team?
The answer is that they can both bunny hop and play as a team, which results in a very powerful team.
<!--quoteo(post=1777357:date=Jul 7 2010, 06:16 PM:name=Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot @ Jul 7 2010, 06:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777357"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you saying what made NS great was all because of <b>Aiming</b>? Why did the rest of us keep playing?
I'm not saying <b>Aiming</b> isn't a skill. I'm not saying NS2 shouldn't require skill. I'm just saying NS2 should be about different kinds of skills.
And yes, <b>Aiming</b> does compromise teamplay.
If all it requires is one marine to hold off most of the alien team, what is everyone else doing? Walking around the map to left click structures until they are built and then run over alien team when the adequate tech level is achieved? I mean gee, who needs a team of marines, you just need a <b>Good Aimer</b> and a commander. He can place the structure, pop out of the command chair and go build it himself while the <b>Good Aimer</b> owns the aliens. As far as I can see only one person is doing any playing and that person is the <b>Good Aimer</b>.
It seems to me all you are interested in is what is fun for you.
If it is true (and I know it's not) that <10 people in the whole NS community can <b>Aim</b>, then are you arguing that in order for NS2 to be as successful or a greater success then NS we have to include <b>Aiming.</b>
If I make sense to everyone in the NS community except for those <10 <b>Good Aimers</b>... I'm okay with that. :)
Let me just address this part too. I haven't missed your point, I get your point.
You say <10 people in the entire NS community can Aim, and then you say Aiming is a big contributor to what made NS special but only <10 people could do it... how does that make sense.
If you want a game that is special and unique because of the high movement skill ceiling, look no further than Warsow (http://www.warsow.net/) released in 2005. It was DESIGNED to be the ultimate twitch based competitive game... doesn't get more specialized then that.
What made NS unique and really special is the RTS/FPS hybrid design... not Aiming.
<b>*LoL*</b> Why is it to Good Aimers, all NS is about is Aiming?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What was the point of this exercise? Well what you said is true of any skill in nearly any team play game, if one player is waaaay better than every one else because of that skill, team play isn't necessary. To a competitive player, bunny hopping is the equivalent to aiming for the alien side, so removing bunny hop would drastically lower the skill ceiling of alien play.
Also, I think few people are saying bhop is the perfect solution. It is very counter intuitive! What we are saying, is that bhop is a pretty amazing addition to a fast paced game, and if it, or something as good or better, isn't present in NS2, the game will suffer immensely in terms of competitive play!
In any case, bunnyhopping is not the only differentiating skill, it is very possible to favor good players with methods other than bunnyhopping.
Mastering a sniper rifle in FPS gaming is a diffentiating skill. Are you implying that sniper rifles should be included in NS2?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As TrC said you are merely twisting words and still couldn't be more dead wrong. Bunnyhopping is a movement skill, and if you possess it you are more skilled than if you did not. No one said it was the only skill (I already implied it wasn't if you bothered to read the example of being able to bunnyhop and dodge and aim). Sniper rifle? I don't even know how many red herrings you want to throw into this discussion, please learn to formulate a proper argument. Differentiating skills come in many different forms, in NS it happens to be predominantly bunnyhopping and twitch aiming. NS2 may have a different skill set, but the point of this thread is to make it clear that movement skills have always been a key <b>differentiating</b> skill in NS and should remain so in NS2; Furthermore, to argue that differentiating skills should be removed altogether is to propose that NS become a watered-down casual party-game-fest, and no one except a certain uninformed poster above wants to see this happen.
Bunny Hopping is where you actually gain speed from air changing movement.
I doubt that will be in NS2.
But we will probably be able to just change direction while in the air, thus air-control for Skulks only(which I think is what they implied when commented on this).
*****
I'm in the camp of, if you want Bunny Hop or advanced/enhanced based movement, go the full way. Trimping, Circle Jumping, Bunny Hop(Uncapped = Unlimited Speed Gain), Ramp/Slope Speed-Gaining, and everything else you can think of(another example is Warsow Wall Bouncing).
Yeah, I doubt most of you could handle it, especially since the NS Marine Guns(LMG for example) basically function like the Quake Machinegun in terms of "recoil". There is none, just a cone of fire; bring on the twitch aiming skills.
You will lose if they implement anything of the sort by us OLDSKOOL VETZ. It is much better to take the route of Squad Teamplay, and focus heavily on that. Since NS lacked that quite a bit(individual skill mattered a lot; more so than teamplay). And yes that is in reference to all tiers of NS, public and competitive.
Define teamplay, I dare say public has no teamwork, while in pcw it is the key. Whether it happens or is caused by luck is up to the clan but saying there is none, is a bit off.
Yes I know how to bhop (you pretty much have to if you've played as long as me). I just don't have an elitist attitude about it.
I'm not arguing that bunnyhopping is better than sprint, however I am convinced that a game should rely on such a glitch. Again, it has nothing to do with the skill, it's about how it fits within the game. You think that the game's priority is to be competitive. I think the game's priority is that it should intuitively make sense. I think for example that players shouldn't get booted out of the command chair in NS2 because they went for turrets, because it makes sense to want to protect your base. I think shotguns shouldn't be the preferred weapon to take down enemy structures. I think a skulk should spend his life on the wall because he can.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As TrC said you are merely twisting words and still couldn't be more dead wrong. Bunnyhopping is a movement skill, and if you possess it you are more skilled than if you did not. No one said it was the only skill (I already implied it wasn't if you bothered to read the example of being able to bunnyhop and dodge and aim). Sniper rifle? I don't even know how many red herrings you want to throw into this discussion, please learn to formulate a proper argument.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Equivalence means A implies B and B implies A. Bunnyhopping implies skill, but skill doesn't imply bunnyhopping. It is very possible to have a game where skill shows, but where there is no bunnyhopping.
Analogies are not red herrings.
Bunnyhopping is a skill. It is not something that has to be essential to the NS2 experience.
Sniping is a skill. It is not something that has to be essential to the NS2 experience.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 may have a different skill set, but the point of this thread is to make it clear that movement skills have always been a key differentiating skill in NS and should remain so in NS2; Furthermore, to argue that differentiating skills should be removed altogether is to propose that NS become a watered-down casual party-game-fest, and no one except a certain uninformed poster above wants to see this happen<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This I totally agree with.
NS2 may have a different skill set (of which bunnyhopping doesn't have to be a part of)
Movement skills should remain a key differentiating skill in NS2 (but not necessarily bunnyhopping)
NS2 doesn't have to be watered down. Replacing bunnyhopping does not transform the game into the Raving Rabbids
Analogies are not red herrings.
Bunnyhopping is a skill. It is not something that has to be essential to the NS2 experience.
Sniping is a skill. It is not something that has to be essential to the NS2 experience.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Analogies are red herrings when they are completely useless and serve no other purpose but distraction, as is the first sentence you listed there. No one has implied that bunnyhopping is the sole basis of skill in NS, yet you seem to be responding to some fictional point in my post, conjuring up first-order logic to address a non-issues in an attempt to appear relevant.
All we've said is that differentiating skills (preferably including movement) need to be a part of NS2, and somehow you took this to mean <u>all</u> such skills, including sniping? At this point I really don't know whether you are quoting me because you agree or disagree, but perhaps you had better just "can" the herring. It not only makes your argument bad form, but attempts to mine through association.
I know my stats say I joined in November 2006 but that is actually when my Account was recovered after a break. I have been here since the Beta and my original join date is July 2002. I have been in this community before there was 1000 members and I base my opinion on 5 years of experience from the Beta through 5 years of releases from 1.0 to 3.2... I left the community because I became disillusioned with the direction of NS, specifically the release of NS: Combat, which I believe undermined the development of the core idea of NS which is the RTS/FPS hybrid team based concept. That was the aspect of NS I thought was unique and special.
I heard every conceivable argument for BHing in NS and I have debated this with the top competitive players in NS so nothing is new here. I came to reaffirm what I know UWE knows... BHing has no place in the overall design of NS. I'm here to say; Charlie, Max, thank you for deciding not to including BHing in NS2 it is a great decision for the gameplay of NS2.
I'm not here to win an argument with you guys, the winner of this debate has already been decided by those who matter the most. I'm just here to support the direction UWE decided to take with NS2 because I truly believe it is the right decision.
I'm not against skill based movement, I'm against skill based movement that allows a vanilla marine to move faster, and out maneuver the unit type on the alien team that supposed to be designed for speed and agility. I never had any problems with Jet Packs in NS. On the back of a competitive player a Jet Pack is <i>absolutely deadly</i> with their accuracy and it is a fine demonstration of skill based movement that does not involve BHing.
I've made my point and voiced my support for UWEs decision. Thank you for reading my posts and whether you agree with me or not, I hope you give NS2 a chance even if it doesn't include BHing.
-We both agree that bunnyhopping is only a skill among others
-We both agree that it is not necessary to judge skill through bunnyhopping (alternatives exist)
-We both agree that movement skill is not restricted to bunnyhopping.
-We both agree that removing bunnyhopping does not make the game skill-less.
Also, please explain to me how the following sentence:
"What you are saying is that someone with skill should not be differentiated with those without, because that's what bunnyhopping is: a differentiating skill."
as a response to a post saying "let's remove bh because it demands skill"
is not to be interpreted as "bunnyhopping is a differentiating skill. What you are really saying when you say that you want to remove bh because it requires skill is that you don't want to differentiate bad players from good ones."
-No better alternative has been made since ns release, hard to believe they will come up with a better one.
-Floor-rocketing instead ?
-Removing bunnyhob would make game less skillful (unless better one is implimented) -^
Theres a reason why new generation games are inferior, I get the impression you have no idea what bh is about. Those who thrive for better will obviously be above those who do not, point is whether the game will lose its value or not. Also a "good player" without bh is simply not good, I assume everyone above is cheater or exploiter? These kind of ignorant comments, I fear they really affect the game.
I don't need your back story, I already know what you're about from the posts you made (or rather edited beyond recognition). I can safely say you exaggerate skill simply because you lack it and as with the point above, and your other stories of great marine feats, they can only happen when a severe skill disparity exists. A vanilla rine does neither move faster nor out maneuver a skulk unless that skulk is seriously skill impaired. Whatever "experience" you claim to have is washed away with posts that exhibit all the same symptoms of a new player who joins his first pubstomp and cries about how everyone is "flying all over the place owning" him. Either you recognize that this is going to happen with <b>any</b> differentiating skill, or your argument is that there should be no such differentiating skills; if the latter, I suggest you look elsewhere than NS (perhaps Viva Pinata is due for a sequel).
<!--quoteo(post=1777409:date=Jul 8 2010, 03:30 AM:name=Cereal_KillR)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cereal_KillR @ Jul 8 2010, 03:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777409"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tell me, then explicitly why you believe bunnyhopping HAS to be in the game factoring in the facts that:<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I assume you are now quoting me without directly quoting me, and believe this is somehow license to put words in my mouth? Nowhere do I say that NS2 need include bunnyhopping, but I do point out that NS is and always was founded on movement and twitch skills, so if not bunnyhop, then a suitable differentiating movement skill will be required. Obviously this is not an easy feat and every replacement suggestion to date has been heavily scrutinized (including some of my own), so until something better can be found, I echo TrC's points as to why you can't replace something if you don't have something better to replace it with.