<!--quoteo(post=1786673:date=Jul 27 2010, 02:10 PM:name=Revi.uk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Revi.uk @ Jul 27 2010, 02:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1786673"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What do you mean "bring you up to speed"?
This thread has no point whatsoever, mainly because there is simply no discussion needed. UWE made their own engine they're sticking with it - talking about whether or not they should have stuck with it is inconsequential.
Lock this thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly what I said originally. This thread needs a lock as it's gone completely off topic. The last message you've quoted of mine was myself trying to squash one of the many tangents this thread has branched off into.
<!--quoteo(post=1786679:date=Jul 27 2010, 09:15 PM:name=Kalabalana)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kalabalana @ Jul 27 2010, 09:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1786679"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Exactly what I said originally. This thread needs a lock as it's gone completely off topic. The last message you've quoted of mine was myself trying to squash one of the many tangents this thread has branched off into.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah right, Sorry, I thought that was the OP trying to state his opinion as fact. Got confused, there is as you said about 3 different topics in here.
<!--quoteo(post=1786663:date=Jul 27 2010, 08:04 PM:name=Revi.uk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Revi.uk @ Jul 27 2010, 08:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1786663"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The tone you took in your earlier post struck me as patronising. You offered no actual technical information, thus suggesting you know less than you lead people to believe.
You said something along the lines of "a mistake made by amateur engine developers ( no offence intended )" struck me as down right insulting and so I called you out on it.
You talk about net-code as "insignificant", sorry but where did you learn to design engines if you think that for a solely single player game this would have been treated as insignificant?
Are you even aware of what "refacturing" means?
Lastly, Source ran awfully when it came out back in the day - the reason why it runs so awesomely now is because it's so old.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It seems you are prejudiced and make assumptions about posters and their intentions while knowing nothing about them. It's a commonplace in forum discussions and I am used to this, that's why I rarely post.
My post is not patronizing, technical information is beyond the scope of this discussion, not to mention irrelevant for the majority of the posters here. I described the programmers as not _amateur_ but _less experienced_ then usual staff in the industry (which doesn't necessarily mean inferior OR that I am the ultimate) and tried to justify my fears about the game. I wasn't sursprised with the performance and bugs of the game, they were to be expected.
Read more carefully - I said "insignificant-looking" which means that many developers tend to disregard it and push designing the netcode to the further plan, because they think "when everything is done, adding multiplayer will be just a formality" - and my statement is not unfounded - I've seen dozens of indie projects fail due to this very reason. I believe that for a game, where the key element is multiplayer, the whole engine should be based off the well designed networking architecture.
Why do you ask about refactoring? The context it was used in makes perfect sense.
And lastly, Source engine ran pretty well when it was released (of course if someone pushed the setting to the max while not having the latest video cards would have experienced less fluent gameplay) + the networking was extraordinary at the time, event without server side lag compensation, which they added later if I remember correctly.
It took Valve 6 years and $40,000,000 to make the engine for half-life 2 with 200+ employees. Hell Valve coined a new term after Half-Life 2 "<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valve_Corporation" target="_blank">Valve Time</a>" (Bottom of the page). And you guys are complaining about the state of this game in it's VERY first alpha release? You are even lucky to see any footage of the alpha stages, no less be able to participate in it.
What do you want to bet, that the first stage of alpha for the source engine was way worse than this?
You guys need to get over it, and set a timer up for the game's release date and don't touch it and complain about it until then. In the meantime, I'm going to participate in the alpha and give all the devs what they need to know to make this game more amazing than you could have ever imagined, and to be a part of THAT community that helped participated in the making of a AAA title like this, well... is a HONOR.
I knew this would happen with so many people under the impression that they wer scoring early access to a new game.
This is the FIRST alpha build. The whole point is that we quickly find problems and report them. The devs are hard at work at getting the next build out as we speak. This is a process. It's exciting!
To be honest Source is the bast*rd son of Quake 2; Its OLD tech. I've seen some of the stuff in this new engine for NS2... a little bit of optisation and it'll be FAR better than Source.
I knew people would be b*tching and I knew it would be about connection issues. And honestly... the dynamic lighting runs pretty smooth on my rig. There are a few problems with frustum culling I think (massive FPS drops), but other than that its pretty cool for an alpha. The engine design is top notch. Even has a nice debugger for Lua.
I think questions like this thread is about just demonstrate a gamer learning possibly the hard way about the development process their games endure for better or worse. I think just trying to code something up in language like Basic or trying to use an existing game's freely released map editor can do wonders for the understanding of a gamer into just how monumental a task their games can be when viewed from the beginning concept to finished result. Perhaps there is opportunity in trying to map or mod something free like Alien Swarm for some here? Or if one desires something applicable to NS2, surely there are some LUA tutorials available.
This thread in particular needs a lock simply because it comes across as moaning over a decision reached by UW ages ago and their reasons for that decision were given then in their kindly open Dev blogs and forum posts. Trying to put a stop to UW using their own engine is inadvisable, their Dev cycle is well on its way now and has its own momentum that either crashes UW or they successfully go gold with their game, just as I wouldn't advise standing at the bottom of a hill in the path of set of rails a mining cart loaded up with ore is proceeding down and picking up speed. And be sure to read the comments on those blogs as well, many of the fears this thread is based upon were expressed then and have since been assuaged with screen shots, video, and more recently having its QA tested in the Alpha for those fans willing to contribute.
<!--quoteo(post=1786719:date=Jul 27 2010, 03:42 PM:name=crakinshot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crakinshot @ Jul 27 2010, 03:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1786719"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To be honest Source is the bast*rd son of Quake 2; Its OLD tech. I've seen some of the stuff in this new engine for NS2... a little bit of optisation and it'll be FAR better than Source.
I knew people would be b*tching and I knew it would be about connection issues. And honestly... the dynamic lighting runs pretty smooth on my rig. There are a few problems with frustum culling I think (massive FPS drops), but other than that its pretty cool for an alpha. The engine design is top notch. Even has a nice debugger for Lua.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What? The GOLDsource engine is based on the quake 2 engine, the Source engine is made entirely from scratch by Valve (except stuff like havok).
The Half-Life engine (GoldSource) can be a great engine if you know how to mod it properly. If you are good at it, you'll be amazed what you can do with it. Both visual quality looks (better than Half-Life 2) and gameplay wise as well.
I remeber when NS1 was first released. bugs? OMG bugs. People have just become spoiled.
Yes you paid, but you paid in ADVANCED, and allowed access to an ALPHA RELEASE.
Consti's donated for two primary reasons, and could be cataloged into either/both. 1.) E-peen 2.) Support a innovative game that had never been done before.
So quit complaining, you bought an advanced copy of a game that isnt released yet. I've been waiting 4 years for this.
<!--quoteo(post=1786265:date=Jul 27 2010, 04:25 PM:name=Kola)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kola @ Jul 27 2010, 04:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1786265"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is why you do not let common people into an alpha -.-'<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
QFT. This is a bug hunt more or less.
<!--quoteo(post=1786692:date=Jul 27 2010, 09:25 PM:name=XainGM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (XainGM @ Jul 27 2010, 09:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1786692"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What do you want to bet, that the first stage of alpha for the source engine was way worse than this?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hell the leaked Release Candidate of HL2 was just as buggy as an Alpha, it also crashed when they were showing it off at E3; I was just happy to get a t-shirt out of the deal though. :)
I just wanted to throw my two cents in there and say I'm really happy that they decided to move from source engine. I'm really happy with the engine they have right now, too. I didn't get a chance to play the alpha from both the release time, and my bedtime (work at 5 in the morning, uc) as well as I don't have a proper gaming rig so I'm a little choppy right now when I play.
I'm looking forward to doing custom content for the spark engine.
<!--quoteo(post=1786805:date=Jul 27 2010, 10:26 PM:name=Stardog)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Stardog @ Jul 27 2010, 10:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1786805"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Max is a god. He worked on the Titan Quest engineI wouldn't worry.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh wow, I played the hell out of TQ. I had no idea Max played a part in that!
<!--quoteo(post=1786359:date=Jul 27 2010, 12:26 PM:name=cat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cat @ Jul 27 2010, 12:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1786359"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, we paid for early alpha access, no one in their right mind pays 20$ for a slightly different player model.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I paid 30$ for a icon next to my name. That and the fact iv played NS for 2 years before i done that, well worth it imo. Still worth it if you count paying for the SE of NS2.
I paid for it because I had the money, I mean, what's the difference than paying off a box game from a big box store before the game comes out? If you get something from it, like the black armor and the alpha access, cool, if not, oh well. Plus I'm a sucker for special editions. I bought the special edition of GTA 4, Beatles rock band, etc etc.
<!--quoteo(post=1786271:date=Jul 28 2010, 01:30 AM:name=Saj)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Saj @ Jul 28 2010, 01:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1786271"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->no the source engine ie terrible, its ruined every mod ported to it so far.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, I paid for SE to support a developer that had previously provided me with untold hours of goodtimes, FOR FREE. Alpha access is just a kewl bonus.
I think that's more of valve's doing, to keep or real in a larger audience. Make the game more accessible. The source engine isn't really terrible, just, it isn't very good either. It's on par with what goldsrc was. It's a pretty mediocre engine form a mediocre games studio, that happens to be one of the easiest (I use that term a little loosely) to get into modifying. I almost think that valve cares more about custom content than primary. That's why CS when not valve made was pretty damned good, and why DoD when not valve made was really good, and why Team Fortress was.. well, made better, but still one out of three.
<!--quoteo(post=1786272:date=Jul 27 2010, 11:31 AM:name=Rothgar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rothgar @ Jul 27 2010, 11:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1786272"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah but most engines are "old" and then built on top of.
I am expecting bugs, don't get me wrong, I just find it hard to believe that the game runs so poorly with < 12 players when people aren't doing much in the way of anything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then you sir, don't know what alpha means. Don't bother playing it and pretend it got released august 26th, then come back and assume its the very first phase of alpha. Maybe youll be a little more content.
<!--quoteo(post=1786920:date=Jul 27 2010, 11:40 PM:name=BAshh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BAshh @ Jul 27 2010, 11:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1786920"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I paid for it because I had the money, I mean, what's the difference than paying off a box game from a big box store before the game comes out? If you get something from it, like the black armor and the alpha access, cool, if not, oh well. Plus I'm a sucker for special editions. I bought the special edition of GTA 4, Beatles rock band, etc etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I did it to support the team. And access to the pre-alpha stuff :). GO TEAM GO!
<!--quoteo(post=1786936:date=Jul 27 2010, 11:49 PM:name=BAshh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BAshh @ Jul 27 2010, 11:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1786936"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think that's more of valve's doing, to keep or real in a larger audience. Make the game more accessible. The source engine isn't really terrible, just, it isn't very good either. It's on par with what goldsrc was. It's a pretty mediocre engine form a mediocre games studio, that happens to be one of the easiest (I use that term a little loosely) to get into modifying. I almost think that valve cares more about custom content than primary. That's why CS when not valve made was pretty damned good, and why DoD when not valve made was really good, and why Team Fortress was.. well, made better, but still one out of three.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bashh you and I both know how hard Source can be at times to get stuff working.
I think one of the big things to look at is development time of content and not just the whole engine. In such a short amount of time, using LUA and their content creation tools and process, the NS2 team has done in a few months from pre-alpha to what would took a large team about a year to do. :)
<!--quoteo(post=1786387:date=Jul 28 2010, 02:44 AM:name=cat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cat @ Jul 28 2010, 02:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1786387"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not a privilege, not something we should be thankful for. We paid +20$ for it. And as I stated before, I am not angry at Flayra for the connection issues, I am just expressing that I hope that they will fix it soon. And for +20$ I have every right in the world to complain as much as I want on a forum of a commercial game. What I am getting angry over is fanboys getting impolite and acting as if I just offended their favorite prophet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No you don't. You have absolutely no right to complain. You have been lucky enough that others have deigned to comment on your complete lack of understanding, and you continue to be willfully ignorant of the terms ALPHA, and RESPECT.
If you have an issue, file a BUG REPORT. That is your privilege.
<!--quoteo(post=1786953:date=Jul 27 2010, 03:00 PM:name=Seikeden)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Seikeden @ Jul 27 2010, 03:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1786953"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No you don't. You have absolutely no right to complain. You have been lucky enough that others have deigned to comment on your complete lack of understanding, and you continue to be willfully ignorant of the terms ALPHA, and RESPECT.
If you have an issue, file a BUG REPORT. That is your privilege.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well said.
You paid extra to support them. And by supporting them, they mean helping them meet financial goals and working out bugs. Most companies don't do this, it's a privilege to be part of this process.
<!--quoteo(post=1786569:date=Jul 28 2010, 04:48 AM:name=rein4ce)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rein4ce @ Jul 28 2010, 04:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1786569"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What Alpha should be =
- good mechanics, reasonable netcode, configurability in terms of performance - crappy models and lack of content, missing animations, textures, no optimizations
Judging from what I have seen already it's not looking all that well. The engine reminds me of a pretty map and model viewer with rushed core functionality. And that is a common mistake among new engine developers (no offence intended), because it is very difficult to further "fix" the networking if the whole engine isn't designed around this insignificant-looking bit. It might even require a total refactorization of the code, but lets leave that to Max (perhaps the designed system is very flexible, just not yet throughtly tested)
Source engine has mastered two things: - netcode flexibility (backwards server prediction, lag compensation, complex extrapolation and lots of tweaking options) - performance configurability (source games could run on lots of different specs, reliability)
The price was mediocre graphics (even compared to other games at the time HL2 was released)
And for example Crysis was on the contrary developed with looks in mind and networking added later - the result was catastrophic I'd say.
Apart from that: the game itself looks very good, I'm just concerned about the engine part, which might hold back release of the finished product for quite a significant time :(
(and fanboyism on these forums is beyond be, you are doing a great damage to the community if each time voicing a slightest criticism causes a flamewar)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I also fear this but I don't want to jinx nothink. Also the source engine has terrible netcode and hit registry. Yes, it's very robust and client-side prediction works extremely (well?) but the physics are abysmal except in TF2 and you know I really got sick of shooting things, particularly projectiles; and not knowing the relation between what I could see and what was "actually" happening. The old unreal netcode was very unforgiving, had negligible client side prediction, and if you dared to play on a capped or dialup connection you would be rubberbanding all over the place, but at least you had a fair idea of where you were shooting, once it happened.
Thank you rein4ce for being the only one who can make a fair judgement out of this alpha.
I must say I've only tried the Alpha on my notebook(asus, athon X2 dualcore ql-64, 3gb ram, and an ati radeon HD4570), and the game looks great when you're not moving, or shooting for that matter(talking about the lowest settings).
Ofcourse I will give it a try on a normal computer, but if the performance is equal or near to the performance it's having on my notebook, I'm forseeing another year of hard work for the team before this game is playable for a larger scale of players.
If I completely missed the minimum requirements, please let me know, cause I thought this game was supposed a followup to the old one, taking 'non-crysis 2 standards' in account.
And what Skyrider was talking about obviously is the great work that the esfteam has done with the goldsource engine; <a href="http://www.esforces.com/" target="_blank">http://www.esforces.com/</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1787017:date=Jul 27 2010, 03:34 PM:name=dutchmeat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dutchmeat @ Jul 27 2010, 03:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1787017"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thank you rein4ce for being the only one who can make a fair judgement out of this alpha.
I must say I've only tried the Alpha on my notebook(asus, athon X2 dualcore ql-64, 3gb ram, and an ati radeon HD4570), and the game looks great when you're not moving, or shooting for that matter(talking about the lowest settings).
Ofcourse I will give it a try on a normal computer, but if the performance is equal or near to the performance it's having on my notebook, I'm forseeing another year of hard work for the team before this game is playable for a larger scale of players.
If I completely missed the minimum requirements, please let me know, cause I thought this game was supposed a followup to the old one, taking 'non-crysis 2 standards' in account.
And what Skyrider was talking about obviously is the great work that the esfteam has done with the goldsource engine; <a href="http://www.esforces.com/" target="_blank">http://www.esforces.com/</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wish I could say this was a fair assessment, but I can tell you rein4ce is just comparing results of this game to another game. A game in which he did NOT alpha or beta test. Obviously most people here are first time testers.
What you need to understand is this: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle</a>
Now, NONE of you have a rite to complain at this point. You can be frustrated, but if you are going to criticize anything at this point it must be constructive and helpful for the devs. Tell them you think the game is no where near completion is NOT helpful and only serves to piss people off. This will NOT speed the process along. Please proved them with details about what's its lacking or missing that would make it more up to par. This is the only way anything you say can become helpful. Otherwise if you can't do this, then please uninstall the game, and wait for it to go gold.
<!--quoteo(post=1786429:date=Jul 28 2010, 03:06 AM:name=Revi.uk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Revi.uk @ Jul 28 2010, 03:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1786429"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know, I don't think the OP even knows anymore based on his last post.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know what my post was about...
I was making an question on should they have stayed with Source/Orange Box Engine given the performance issues that are seen currently on the "Dedicated" (I'd say hacked listen server really) Server and lack of feature functionality.
It was not about being "Alpha" or "Having bugs" specifically.
After the Engine "test" most of us participated in which should of given them feedback on their "engine" on a standalone type perspective which there were various complaints about performance on and given the fact we are so far along in time and that the servers don't seem to be able to handle < 12 players very well. Should they have ventured in their own engine and do they really have the time to optimize it and build it up to a playable state?
Building decent netcode and optimizing a game engine are not usually fast processes. Looking at their current "Dedicated" server which to me looks like they hacked it up on the night of release really (Although for an Alpha having a hacked up listen server is not a complaint because I know it's an Alpha)... but for example they could of made it so you could type in the console, they could of tested some port configurations etc, they could of made chat messages print in console etc. I am wondering if they have the time to build the rest of the game content etc and spend all this time building/fixing/tweaking their own engine to make it Internet friendly. Because at this point it seems like they have been focusing on the content and features of the game and I don't know how much time they have to spend on the engine and netcode optimization.
I guess I expected them to at least take a look at their product and run some basic tests before just writing some code and throwing it out to the community calling it an "Alpha" and have me wondering wow is this ever going to become a full playable game with the abysmal performance, lack of server functionality etc. Sure it can all be built but we all know UWE is not a massive operation.
It seems like this turned into a massive "Playable Alpha" flame war though.
Comments
This thread has no point whatsoever, mainly because there is simply no discussion needed. UWE made their own engine they're sticking with it - talking about whether or not they should have stuck with it is inconsequential.
Lock this thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly what I said originally. This thread needs a lock as it's gone completely off topic. The last message you've quoted of mine was myself trying to squash one of the many tangents this thread has branched off into.
Ah right, Sorry, I thought that was the OP trying to state his opinion as fact. Got confused, there is as you said about 3 different topics in here.
You said something along the lines of "a mistake made by amateur engine developers ( no offence intended )" struck me as down right insulting and so I called you out on it.
You talk about net-code as "insignificant", sorry but where did you learn to design engines if you think that for a solely single player game this would have been treated as insignificant?
Are you even aware of what "refacturing" means?
Lastly, Source ran awfully when it came out back in the day - the reason why it runs so awesomely now is because it's so old.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It seems you are prejudiced and make assumptions about posters and their intentions while knowing nothing about them. It's a commonplace in forum discussions and I am used to this, that's why I rarely post.
My post is not patronizing, technical information is beyond the scope of this discussion, not to mention irrelevant for the majority of the posters here.
I described the programmers as not _amateur_ but _less experienced_ then usual staff in the industry (which doesn't necessarily mean inferior OR that I am the ultimate) and tried to justify my fears about the game.
I wasn't sursprised with the performance and bugs of the game, they were to be expected.
Read more carefully - I said "insignificant-looking" which means that many developers tend to disregard it and push designing the netcode to the further plan, because they think "when everything is done, adding multiplayer will be just a formality" - and my statement is not unfounded - I've seen dozens of indie projects fail due to this very reason.
I believe that for a game, where the key element is multiplayer, the whole engine should be based off the well designed networking architecture.
Why do you ask about refactoring? The context it was used in makes perfect sense.
And lastly, Source engine ran pretty well when it was released (of course if someone pushed the setting to the max while not having the latest video cards would have experienced less fluent gameplay) + the networking was extraordinary at the time, event without server side lag compensation, which they added later if I remember correctly.
It took Valve 6 years and $40,000,000 to make the engine for half-life 2 with 200+ employees. Hell Valve coined a new term after Half-Life 2 "<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valve_Corporation" target="_blank">Valve Time</a>" (Bottom of the page). And you guys are complaining about the state of this game in it's VERY first alpha release? You are even lucky to see any footage of the alpha stages, no less be able to participate in it.
What do you want to bet, that the first stage of alpha for the source engine was way worse than this?
You guys need to get over it, and set a timer up for the game's release date and don't touch it and complain about it until then. In the meantime, I'm going to participate in the alpha and give all the devs what they need to know to make this game more amazing than you could have ever imagined, and to be a part of THAT community that helped participated in the making of a AAA title like this, well... is a HONOR.
This is the FIRST alpha build. The whole point is that we quickly find problems and report them. The devs are hard at work at getting the next build out as we speak. This is a process. It's exciting!
I knew people would be b*tching and I knew it would be about connection issues. And honestly... the dynamic lighting runs pretty smooth on my rig. There are a few problems with frustum culling I think (massive FPS drops), but other than that its pretty cool for an alpha. The engine design is top notch. Even has a nice debugger for Lua.
This thread in particular needs a lock simply because it comes across as moaning over a decision reached by UW ages ago and their reasons for that decision were given then in their kindly open Dev blogs and forum posts. Trying to put a stop to UW using their own engine is inadvisable, their Dev cycle is well on its way now and has its own momentum that either crashes UW or they successfully go gold with their game, just as I wouldn't advise standing at the bottom of a hill in the path of set of rails a mining cart loaded up with ore is proceeding down and picking up speed. And be sure to read the comments on those blogs as well, many of the fears this thread is based upon were expressed then and have since been assuaged with screen shots, video, and more recently having its QA tested in the Alpha for those fans willing to contribute.
I knew people would be b*tching and I knew it would be about connection issues. And honestly... the dynamic lighting runs pretty smooth on my rig. There are a few problems with frustum culling I think (massive FPS drops), but other than that its pretty cool for an alpha. The engine design is top notch. Even has a nice debugger for Lua.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What? The GOLDsource engine is based on the quake 2 engine, the Source engine is made entirely from scratch by Valve (except stuff like havok).
I wouldn't worry.
Yes you paid, but you paid in ADVANCED, and allowed access to an ALPHA RELEASE.
Consti's donated for two primary reasons, and could be cataloged into either/both. 1.) E-peen 2.) Support a innovative game that had never been done before.
So quit complaining, you bought an advanced copy of a game that isnt released yet. I've been waiting 4 years for this.
QFT. This is a bug hunt more or less.
<!--quoteo(post=1786692:date=Jul 27 2010, 09:25 PM:name=XainGM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (XainGM @ Jul 27 2010, 09:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1786692"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What do you want to bet, that the first stage of alpha for the source engine was way worse than this?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hell the leaked Release Candidate of HL2 was just as buggy as an Alpha, it also crashed when they were showing it off at E3; I was just happy to get a t-shirt out of the deal though. :)
I'm looking forward to doing custom content for the spark engine.
Oh wow, I played the hell out of TQ. I had no idea Max played a part in that!
+1 to faith
I paid 30$ for a icon next to my name. That and the fact iv played NS for 2 years before i done that, well worth it imo. Still worth it if you count paying for the SE of NS2.
This.
<!--quoteo(post=1786358:date=Jul 28 2010, 02:25 AM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Jul 28 2010, 02:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1786358"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->co-signed<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, I paid for SE to support a developer that had previously provided me with untold hours of goodtimes, FOR FREE. Alpha access is just a kewl bonus.
I am expecting bugs, don't get me wrong, I just find it hard to believe that the game runs so poorly with < 12 players when people aren't doing much in the way of anything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then you sir, don't know what alpha means. Don't bother playing it and pretend it got released august 26th, then come back and assume its the very first phase of alpha. Maybe youll be a little more content.
I did it to support the team. And access to the pre-alpha stuff :). GO TEAM GO!
Bashh you and I both know how hard Source can be at times to get stuff working.
I think one of the big things to look at is development time of content and not just the whole engine. In such a short amount of time, using LUA and their content creation tools and process, the NS2 team has done in a few months from pre-alpha to what would took a large team about a year to do. :)
What I am getting angry over is fanboys getting impolite and acting as if I just offended their favorite prophet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No you don't. You have absolutely no right to complain. You have been lucky enough that others have deigned to comment on your complete lack of understanding, and you continue to be willfully ignorant of the terms ALPHA, and RESPECT.
If you have an issue, file a BUG REPORT. That is your privilege.
If you have an issue, file a BUG REPORT. That is your privilege.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well said.
You paid extra to support them. And by supporting them, they mean helping them meet financial goals and working out bugs. Most companies don't do this, it's a privilege to be part of this process.
- good mechanics, reasonable netcode, configurability in terms of performance
- crappy models and lack of content, missing animations, textures, no optimizations
Judging from what I have seen already it's not looking all that well.
The engine reminds me of a pretty map and model viewer with rushed core functionality.
And that is a common mistake among new engine developers (no offence intended), because it is very difficult to further "fix" the networking if the whole engine isn't designed around this insignificant-looking bit. It might even require a total refactorization of the code, but lets leave that to Max (perhaps the designed system is very flexible, just not yet throughtly tested)
Source engine has mastered two things:
- netcode flexibility (backwards server prediction, lag compensation, complex extrapolation and lots of tweaking options)
- performance configurability (source games could run on lots of different specs, reliability)
The price was mediocre graphics (even compared to other games at the time HL2 was released)
And for example Crysis was on the contrary developed with looks in mind and networking added later - the result was catastrophic I'd say.
Apart from that:
the game itself looks very good, I'm just concerned about the engine part, which might hold back release of the finished product for quite a significant time :(
(and fanboyism on these forums is beyond be, you are doing a great damage to the community if each time voicing a slightest criticism causes a flamewar)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I also fear this but I don't want to jinx nothink. Also the source engine has terrible netcode and hit registry. Yes, it's very robust and client-side prediction works extremely (well?) but the physics are abysmal except in TF2 and you know I really got sick of shooting things, particularly projectiles; and not knowing the relation between what I could see and what was "actually" happening. The old unreal netcode was very unforgiving, had negligible client side prediction, and if you dared to play on a capped or dialup connection you would be rubberbanding all over the place, but at least you had a fair idea of where you were shooting, once it happened.
I must say I've only tried the Alpha on my notebook(asus, athon X2 dualcore ql-64, 3gb ram, and an ati radeon HD4570), and the game looks great when you're not moving, or shooting for that matter(talking about the lowest settings).
Ofcourse I will give it a try on a normal computer, but if the performance is equal or near to the performance it's having on my notebook, I'm forseeing another year of hard work for the team before this game is playable for a larger scale of players.
If I completely missed the minimum requirements, please let me know, cause I thought this game was supposed a followup to the old one, taking 'non-crysis 2 standards' in account.
And what Skyrider was talking about obviously is the great work that the esfteam has done with the goldsource engine; <a href="http://www.esforces.com/" target="_blank">http://www.esforces.com/</a>
I must say I've only tried the Alpha on my notebook(asus, athon X2 dualcore ql-64, 3gb ram, and an ati radeon HD4570), and the game looks great when you're not moving, or shooting for that matter(talking about the lowest settings).
Ofcourse I will give it a try on a normal computer, but if the performance is equal or near to the performance it's having on my notebook, I'm forseeing another year of hard work for the team before this game is playable for a larger scale of players.
If I completely missed the minimum requirements, please let me know, cause I thought this game was supposed a followup to the old one, taking 'non-crysis 2 standards' in account.
And what Skyrider was talking about obviously is the great work that the esfteam has done with the goldsource engine; <a href="http://www.esforces.com/" target="_blank">http://www.esforces.com/</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wish I could say this was a fair assessment, but I can tell you rein4ce is just comparing results of this game to another game. A game in which he did NOT alpha or beta test. Obviously most people here are first time testers.
What you need to understand is this: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle</a>
Now, NONE of you have a rite to complain at this point. You can be frustrated, but if you are going to criticize anything at this point it must be constructive and helpful for the devs. Tell them you think the game is no where near completion is NOT helpful and only serves to piss people off. This will NOT speed the process along. Please proved them with details about what's its lacking or missing that would make it more up to par. This is the only way anything you say can become helpful. Otherwise if you can't do this, then please uninstall the game, and wait for it to go gold.
I know what my post was about...
I was making an question on should they have stayed with Source/Orange Box Engine given the performance issues that are seen currently on the "Dedicated" (I'd say hacked listen server really) Server and lack of feature functionality.
It was not about being "Alpha" or "Having bugs" specifically.
After the Engine "test" most of us participated in which should of given them feedback on their "engine" on a standalone type perspective which there were various complaints about performance on and given the fact we are so far along in time and that the servers don't seem to be able to handle < 12 players very well. Should they have ventured in their own engine and do they really have the time to optimize it and build it up to a playable state?
Building decent netcode and optimizing a game engine are not usually fast processes. Looking at their current "Dedicated" server which to me looks like they hacked it up on the night of release really (Although for an Alpha having a hacked up listen server is not a complaint because I know it's an Alpha)... but for example they could of made it so you could type in the console, they could of tested some port configurations etc, they could of made chat messages print in console etc. I am wondering if they have the time to build the rest of the game content etc and spend all this time building/fixing/tweaking their own engine to make it Internet friendly. Because at this point it seems like they have been focusing on the content and features of the game and I don't know how much time they have to spend on the engine and netcode optimization.
I guess I expected them to at least take a look at their product and run some basic tests before just writing some code and throwing it out to the community calling it an "Alpha" and have me wondering wow is this ever going to become a full playable game with the abysmal performance, lack of server functionality etc. Sure it can all be built but we all know UWE is not a massive operation.
It seems like this turned into a massive "Playable Alpha" flame war though.
There were a few good posts in the thread.