I really like the buildbots but as I play more and more NS2 I'm starting to get the feeling that the 'bond' between the comm and teammates has kind of broken. The comm feels so much more on their own and the players are free to run around and do whatever. I forget who said it but someone mentioned it feels like team deathmatch with comms doing their own thing.
Marines should still be able to build. The MAC is an advantage for when no one is around to guard base or for smaller games, however In larger games the MAC becomes a restriction if anything and removes the need for a commander to send marines around to specific spots instead of just fighting on their own while the comm sends MACs everywhere hoping they make it. This might not be the way MACs were intended but this is the current result of them in 'pub' play.
Another mention is the role of the occasional rambo marine(s) that will always be found in pubs and even competetive play. They have lost all ability to accomplish anything useful now. The comm can't say "hey you made to to <location> lets try and sneak up a <rt/phase/techpoint/etc>". Actually one of the only things they can do now is knife a hive til the aliens swarm in and kill them.
In the case of the alien comm this might not be quite as bad since the aliens are more dependent anyway. Drifters make it feel like you are spreading the infestation and by going gorge you have other gorge-like tasks to worry about now minus hives and RTs. The only downside is that hives can't be ninja'd up as well because drifters aren't sneaky enough to accomplish this.
The Comm is the MAC, it's his little companion that he must control to actually get stuff accomplished. Marines shouldn't be running off they should have the MAC following them and sticking with the MAC so that it can build it's RT and/or whatever else. If you send out multiple groups of marines to pinch the alien team, you can send 3-4 MACs with one group of players and another 3-4 MACs with the others. Now what happens is like i said before, the MACs can make the first move, drop some mines around the players, have 1 or 2 macs building the seiges, while having the other 2 macs welding the marines.
That gives A LOT of work to the marine commander. He'll definitely have to multitask to get everyone welded by the bots, to also use the bots to the marine advantage. The comm and the marines will have to work together still, if anything this will give the commander a lot more work.
I can't say this enough MACs will be crucial to have in pub/competitive play to help marines.
MACs still should be able to follow a certain squad of marines around, and the marines be able to do tasks with that MAC, being forced to rely on the commander for all that micromanaging in a large game is almost too demanding, however, giving a MAC to a squad and allocating them x amount of resources to build with , so that one meanie squad leader won't use all the teams resources. The commander still should be aloud to use his own personal MACs, but forcing the commander to have to micromanage all the MACs in a large game would just be a ridiculous, he wouldn't be able to analyze the situation and tell his marines what to do if he's busy trying to micro manage every squads MAC.
What do you mean for the commander to use all the teams resources? You use plasma to purchase your own weapons, all the upgrades and everything is the only thing that the commander deals with. You'll still be getting your weapons. The MACs will probobly end up having an 'Aid Team' option in the future where if a MAC is with a squad it'll weld if needed and if not attack if there's aliens nearby.
What I'm saying is, give the ability for squad leaders to take some burden off the commander, as in the commander says ok Squad Alpha, i'm allocating you 10 carbon, so they are able to build a turret or something along those lines when they need it, so they don't have to yell at their commander for him to build something. Because, At least i would think, the commander can't watch his whole team at once, and doesn't know their needs, so giving them a MAC for a few people in order to build something if needed.
I'm pretty sure even in NS1 that the commander doesn't get help 'allocating' money, and commanders in NS1 can still manage to deal with at least 2 things at once. It'll be the same thing for NS2, if you can't manage 2 things at once as a commander, then sorry that person shouldn't be commanding. That's HIS job, it's a tough one.
I don't have the alpha, but if what you say is true, then I'm actually a bit shocked that they took out any way for marines to build stuff personally.
Sure builder bots are nice, but they can't be everywhere all the time. What happens when you want to ninja something critical? Like a new base because the old one is dead and your not.
I don't have the alpha, but if what you say is true, then I'm actually a bit shocked that they took out any way for marines to build stuff personally.
Sure builder bots are nice, but they can't be everywhere all the time. What happens when you want to ninja something critical? Like a new base because the old one is dead and your not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Considering for a new base you need to have control over a techpoint to be able to drop a new Command Station. My guess is, if you're the lone survivor.. you probobly don't have a chance of getting that techpoint either way, nor should you.
So I was typing up a big response and it got deleted by accident.
The problem is buildbots are requiring babysitting for the marines to accomplish anything now in terms of expansion. A marine has no role beside attack and defend, and any form of being sneaky goes out the window when the aliens hear "OKIEDOKIE SIR MAM UM COMMANDER".
If the marine can't build there are going to be way to many good opportunities where since the big noisy yellow thing isn't with them they now have to be a sitting duck.
Not that I don't like the yellow noisy thing but it was BEST USED eliminating the base beotch role and not taking over the ENTIRE non-attacking role of the average marine.
There have always been ways to screw marines over so that they couldn't sneak by. There was scent of fear, there was parasites, the marines running around and scouting aliens. Dropped sensory chambers which would show if a marine would be going by. It shouldn't be easy to get by and be all sneaky. NS2 has a lot of different aspects to the game now. You don't have welders, you need a MAC to pretty much do all of that for you, so you do need some with you group to keep your armor up. Also i'm sure that they'll add the option for the MAC to just follow. Which he doesn't make any sound while moving, just when building.
I don't agree with Marine's not being able to build anywhere.
I agree the builder bots is an excellent change. However I think Marine's should still be able to build just at a dramatically slower rate and also not with builder bots at the same time so you can't speed up assembly.
<!--quoteo(post=1789645:date=Jul 30 2010, 02:42 PM:name=Darkhand)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Darkhand @ Jul 30 2010, 02:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789645"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't agree with Marine's not being able to build anywhere.
I agree the builder bots is an excellent change. However I think Marine's should still be able to build just at a dramatically slower rate and also not with builder bots at the same time so you can't speed up assembly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the first time I've heard of this solution and I actually think it's a pretty good idea.
I'd have to say that the absence of building is kind of sad. As others have stated, Part of the charm of being a marine in NS1 was trying to build stuff where it doesn't belong. Making super turret bases, or hiding in a vent or corner of a map. As one person said "The vulnerability of trying to build a forward turret and hearing a Skulk running in your direction and hoping you will finish the turret in time." that was an awesome aspect of the game. Running around trying to protect a stupid little "builder bot" seems kinda dumb...Especially if you cant "Buy" more of them if the aliens kill one. This seems like a big disadvantage to the marines than how they were previously set-up, with the commander just dropping buildings all over and people being able to build whenever and however they pleased.
What do you mean that you can't "buy" more of them, they are on the first tree of the command station, 2 plasma for a MAC. Can buy as many as you want.
How many times has a turret sat unbuilt while you scream in the mic for someone to finish building it? Have you ever tried to relocate but everyone runs to get RT's or Hive camp.. Or how often has the team run out of base without building the infantry portal and armory?
I don't love the idea of the bots, at the moment they are buggy and clunky (duh its alpha). If the game really needs it they can simply add a builder pack you can grab out of the armory w/ tech upgrades first of course. Then you can run around and deploy your own bots or build directly.. There's always ways to tweak things, but the general idea is to allow commanders to create and manage infrastructure.
How many times has a turret sat unbuilt while you scream in the mic for someone to finish building it? Have you ever tried to relocate but everyone runs to get RT's or Hive camp.. Or how often has the team run out of base without building the infantry portal and armory?
I don't love the idea of the bots, at the moment they are buggy and clunky (duh its alpha). If the game really needs it they can simply add a builder pack you can grab out of the armory w/ tech upgrades first of course. Then you can run around and deploy your own bots or build directly.. There's always ways to tweak things, but the general idea is to allow commanders to create and manage infrastructure.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think MACs are a great idea for when ppl aren't listening but what we are asking for is for marines to be able to do some building. Not as well as the MAC but just give us some ability to build, it is what made NS1 fun for so many people.
It's definitely a large and unique aspect of NS1 that I wish was back. Even if they made it reduced duration, and the bots a lot FASTER. The option for those sneaky ninja builds and having to listen out for aliens, stop building, aim - that whole intensity is something that I loved. More marines, faster building, having to cover someone building up a PG in an ambush spot.
Spawned a I&S topic on players being able to build/aid building. <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=110709" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=110709</a>
MAC-s should not be a major aspect of the game. They should only exists to help out the commander building at the base if no one is there to do it or repair things. Marines should be able to build, it should be the players roll. (+ same thing with the gorge)
Fixed CC places are lame. It removes the heart of NS.
I managed to play some games as commander with aliens and marines in NS2. So even if its an alpha i can already tell that this is not NS. THIS IS MADNES!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fixed CC places are lame.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> dropping a building that has even unbuild higher health than anything else short of a hive is just as lame. especialy if you're the onos who's butt hurts after the blockrape.
The marine gameplay in NS2 will feature the comm directing AI units while the rines escort. There is the MAC, and also the much large mobile siege MASC. Both of these are comm directed units that will be very important to the marines success. I think requiring marines to get used to escorting comm units around is very important. Otherwise, no one will be paying attention when that expensive MASC rolls out toward the hives.
I just don't get why people are so perturbed by having a lil MAC along on their sneaky building missions. This requires the comm and marine to coordinate closely as they make a strategy. With multiple comm stations, dispatching MACs out to players will not be nearly as difficult as some of you seem to assume.
NS1 is not NS2. I'm sure you will deal with this eventually.
An aspect of this that quite a few people don’t reflect on is….
Compare the size of the current NS2 map and the ones in NS1 and you will see there is a huge different in size. Just thought people should remember to think about that. They seem to want to focus the fighting on more predictable terms I guess? The battlefronts are quite obvious and require very little distance to traverse and very little planning to know what the enemy will do…. Shoot builders first, then kill everyone else. If you sacrifice yourself to take out the builder effectively halting the enemy’s progress….. yeah. As I said in another of my posts in the other thread, these are not changes I can get behind, sure the co_* maps were fun sometimes, but the substances of NS1 was the ns_ maps that I fondly remember playing for 6+hrs.
<!--quoteo(post=1790119:date=Jul 31 2010, 02:17 PM:name=ptfff)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ptfff @ Jul 31 2010, 02:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790119"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->An aspect of this that quite a few people don’t reflect on is….
Compare the size of the current NS2 map and the ones in NS1 and you will see there is a huge different in size. Just thought people should remember to think about that. They seem to want to focus the fighting on more predictable terms I guess? The battlefronts are quite obvious and require very little distance to traverse and very little planning to know what the enemy will do…. Shoot builders first, then kill everyone else. If you sacrifice yourself to take out the builder effectively halting the enemy’s progress….. yeah. As I said in another of my posts in the other thread, these are not changes I can get behind, sure the co_* maps were fun sometimes, but the substances of NS1 was the ns_ maps that I fondly remember playing for 6+hrs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And as has been pointed out elsewhere, the reason matches lasted for 6+ hours is because we weren't all that good. What's the average length of time for a competitive match these days?
I'll never understand how, even though it's constantly stated, people against marines building ALSO seem to think that, this will cause MAC's to be obsolete. This is not in anyway whatsoever what we are suggesting, having the OPTION for BOTH to build only OPENS up more game play experience as well as strategies.. again I would love to hear at least ONE example of how this hinders the game considering ANYTHING you can do with only MAC's you can STILL DO with marines building as well.
Comments
Marines should still be able to build. The MAC is an advantage for when no one is around to guard base or for smaller games, however In larger games the MAC becomes a restriction if anything and removes the need for a commander to send marines around to specific spots instead of just fighting on their own while the comm sends MACs everywhere hoping they make it. This might not be the way MACs were intended but this is the current result of them in 'pub' play.
Another mention is the role of the occasional rambo marine(s) that will always be found in pubs and even competetive play. They have lost all ability to accomplish anything useful now. The comm can't say "hey you made to to <location> lets try and sneak up a <rt/phase/techpoint/etc>". Actually one of the only things they can do now is knife a hive til the aliens swarm in and kill them.
In the case of the alien comm this might not be quite as bad since the aliens are more dependent anyway. Drifters make it feel like you are spreading the infestation and by going gorge you have other gorge-like tasks to worry about now minus hives and RTs. The only downside is that hives can't be ninja'd up as well because drifters aren't sneaky enough to accomplish this.
The Comm is the MAC, it's his little companion that he must control to actually get stuff accomplished. Marines shouldn't be running off they should have the MAC following them and sticking with the MAC so that it can build it's RT and/or whatever else. If you send out multiple groups of marines to pinch the alien team, you can send 3-4 MACs with one group of players and another 3-4 MACs with the others. Now what happens is like i said before, the MACs can make the first move, drop some mines around the players, have 1 or 2 macs building the seiges, while having the other 2 macs welding the marines.
That gives A LOT of work to the marine commander. He'll definitely have to multitask to get everyone welded by the bots, to also use the bots to the marine advantage. The comm and the marines will have to work together still, if anything this will give the commander a lot more work.
I can't say this enough MACs will be crucial to have in pub/competitive play to help marines.
I don't have the alpha, but if what you say is true, then I'm actually a bit shocked that they took out any way for marines to build stuff personally.
Sure builder bots are nice, but they can't be everywhere all the time. What happens when you want to ninja something critical? Like a new base because the old one is dead and your not.
I don't have the alpha, but if what you say is true, then I'm actually a bit shocked that they took out any way for marines to build stuff personally.
Sure builder bots are nice, but they can't be everywhere all the time. What happens when you want to ninja something critical? Like a new base because the old one is dead and your not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Considering for a new base you need to have control over a techpoint to be able to drop a new Command Station. My guess is, if you're the lone survivor.. you probobly don't have a chance of getting that techpoint either way, nor should you.
The problem is buildbots are requiring babysitting for the marines to accomplish anything now in terms of expansion. A marine has no role beside attack and defend, and any form of being sneaky goes out the window when the aliens hear "OKIEDOKIE SIR MAM UM COMMANDER".
If the marine can't build there are going to be way to many good opportunities where since the big noisy yellow thing isn't with them they now have to be a sitting duck.
Not that I don't like the yellow noisy thing but it was BEST USED eliminating the base beotch role and not taking over the ENTIRE non-attacking role of the average marine.
I agree the builder bots is an excellent change. However I think Marine's should still be able to build just at a dramatically slower rate and also not with builder bots at the same time so you can't speed up assembly.
I agree the builder bots is an excellent change. However I think Marine's should still be able to build just at a dramatically slower rate and also not with builder bots at the same time so you can't speed up assembly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the first time I've heard of this solution and I actually think it's a pretty good idea.
How many times has a turret sat unbuilt while you scream in the mic for someone to finish building it? Have you ever tried to relocate but everyone runs to get RT's or Hive camp.. Or how often has the team run out of base without building the infantry portal and armory?
I don't love the idea of the bots, at the moment they are buggy and clunky (duh its alpha). If the game really needs it they can simply add a builder pack you can grab out of the armory w/ tech upgrades first of course. Then you can run around and deploy your own bots or build directly.. There's always ways to tweak things, but the general idea is to allow commanders to create and manage infrastructure.
How many times has a turret sat unbuilt while you scream in the mic for someone to finish building it? Have you ever tried to relocate but everyone runs to get RT's or Hive camp.. Or how often has the team run out of base without building the infantry portal and armory?
I don't love the idea of the bots, at the moment they are buggy and clunky (duh its alpha). If the game really needs it they can simply add a builder pack you can grab out of the armory w/ tech upgrades first of course. Then you can run around and deploy your own bots or build directly.. There's always ways to tweak things, but the general idea is to allow commanders to create and manage infrastructure.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think MACs are a great idea for when ppl aren't listening but what we are asking for is for marines to be able to do some building. Not as well as the MAC but just give us some ability to build, it is what made NS1 fun for so many people.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=110709" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=110709</a>
Marines should be able to build, it should be the players roll. (+ same thing with the gorge)
Fixed CC places are lame. It removes the heart of NS.
I managed to play some games as commander with aliens and marines in NS2. So even if its an alpha i can already tell that this is not NS. THIS IS MADNES!
But we should be able to place emergency command chairs in the game.(Less health and cost more than regular command station, can't spawn macs)
dropping a building that has even unbuild higher health than anything else short of a hive is just as lame.
especialy if you're the onos who's butt hurts after the blockrape.
I just don't get why people are so perturbed by having a lil MAC along on their sneaky building missions. This requires the comm and marine to coordinate closely as they make a strategy. With multiple comm stations, dispatching MACs out to players will not be nearly as difficult as some of you seem to assume.
NS1 is not NS2. I'm sure you will deal with this eventually.
Jesus has nothing to do with this, although I bet some people in these threads wished he did.
Compare the size of the current NS2 map and the ones in NS1 and you will see there is a huge different in size. Just thought people should remember to think about that.
They seem to want to focus the fighting on more predictable terms I guess?
The battlefronts are quite obvious and require very little distance to traverse and very little planning to know what the enemy will do…. Shoot builders first, then kill everyone else. If you sacrifice yourself to take out the builder effectively halting the enemy’s progress….. yeah.
As I said in another of my posts in the other thread, these are not changes I can get behind, sure the co_* maps were fun sometimes, but the substances of NS1 was the ns_ maps that I fondly remember playing for 6+hrs.
Compare the size of the current NS2 map and the ones in NS1 and you will see there is a huge different in size. Just thought people should remember to think about that.
They seem to want to focus the fighting on more predictable terms I guess?
The battlefronts are quite obvious and require very little distance to traverse and very little planning to know what the enemy will do…. Shoot builders first, then kill everyone else. If you sacrifice yourself to take out the builder effectively halting the enemy’s progress….. yeah.
As I said in another of my posts in the other thread, these are not changes I can get behind, sure the co_* maps were fun sometimes, but the substances of NS1 was the ns_ maps that I fondly remember playing for 6+hrs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And as has been pointed out elsewhere, the reason matches lasted for 6+ hours is because we weren't all that good. What's the average length of time for a competitive match these days?