<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If a marine were to tape down his "w" key, is he suddenly an NPC?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, direct control is meaning all the time physical representation of the player. Which a MAC is NOT as you commandeer it, not see the game from it's point of view and move it <b>directly</b>
The argument that you don't 'control' MACs but rather 'give them orders' is a feeble one at best. When I tell a MAC to move to the other side of the room, theres some script and junk that makes the MAC go there. When I push W+Shift to sprint to the other side of the room there is still some script and behind-the-scenes stuff going on in between my input and the in game consequence.
I think the devs need to declare what they think the builders should be called, and I hope they make up something new.
<!--quoteo(post=1795009:date=Aug 18 2010, 02:38 PM:name=RobB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobB @ Aug 18 2010, 02:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795009"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, direct control is meaning all the time physical representation of the player. Which a MAC is NOT as you commandeer it, not see the game from it's point of view and move it <b>directly</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Diablo 2 was a successful online rpg that had a control scheme much like the one used to control MACs. It was top-down and you moved your character by clicking on where you wanted it to go. In your opinion, are the characters in diablo 2 also NPCs?
Jesus, how does a question like this spawn 2 pages of replies?
The simple answer is "npc" and "pc" are labels that don't suit the mixed gamestyle of NS very well. You cannot directly control or "play" a mac, but you can indirectly control it in an overview "RTS" manner. It does have some automated functions.
From an FPS viewpoint, they're NPCs. From an RTS viewpoint, they're not NPCs.
<!--quoteo(post=1795002:date=Aug 18 2010, 02:05 PM:name=Kwil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kwil @ Aug 18 2010, 02:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795002"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If a marine were to tape down his "w" key, is he suddenly an NPC?
You're assuming that "character"="avatar" which is what we were just pointing out isn't necessarily so. Take a game like Ars Magica, where you play a troupe of characters. Are they not PCs simply because none of them in particular is your avatar? Of course not. The defining factor in whether something is a player character or an NPC is whether one of the players controls it. That the MAC or Drifter has some inbuilt programming does not make it any less player controlled, as it won't suddenly take off on its own or anything like that, it's actions require a player as impetus. After all, a commander could drive it directly by setting an extremely short series of waypoints, much like a player of the marines would drive their own model around, the only difference being whether the view is first-person or top-down.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I respectfully disagree with the above. PC = "avatar" is really the only definition that consistently makes sense. If I'm playing a character in a fantasy game that is "mind controlled" by some other creature with psionic ability - does that mean my character is no longer "me" because I'm not in control anymore ?
In your example of a "troupe" of characters the answer is they are _all_ PCs because they _all_ represent you. There doesnt have to be a strict 1 to 1 mapping. Note though that they represent you _directly_ which is why a creature summoned by your wizard is _not_ considered a PC because it does not directly represent you. In the same way the MAC does not _directly_ represent you and is therefore an NPC.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Diablo 2 was a successful online rpg that had a control scheme much like the one used to control MACs. It was top-down and you moved your character by clicking on where you wanted it to go. In your opinion, are the characters in diablo 2 also NPCs?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> holy Jesus effing christ in hell, in Diablo II your character is your representation, the MACs are in that context minions you conjured like golems or revived monsters.
<!--quoteo(post=1795091:date=Aug 18 2010, 09:35 PM:name=RobB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobB @ Aug 18 2010, 09:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795091"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->holy Jesus effing christ in hell, in Diablo II your character is your representation, the MACs are in that context minions you conjured like golems or revived monsters.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Except for one crucial difference. No player controls the golems or revived monsters. They do their thing on their own. A player is controlling the MAC/Drifter -- the commander. Or doesn't s/he count as a player?
<!--quoteo(post=1794946:date=Aug 18 2010, 04:14 PM:name=salor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (salor @ Aug 18 2010, 04:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1794946"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><i>Player Controller Character</i> in video games is exactly that...<b>Player Controlled Character</b>...a <i>Character</i>...<i>Controlled</i>...by a <i>Player</i>
Its is <b>NOT</b> <i>necessarily </i>an Avatar...you cannot restrict the definition a <i>player controlled character </i>to only an Avatar (although...this is the case in many games....this is not exclusive)..
Yes. they have personality...but even Avatars do (e.g in many games...if you leave your Avatar for a few min...say you go AFK...they will usually start doing some animation to indicate that they are bored etc etc....)
<b>Player Controlled Characters</b>...are <i>Characters Controlled by the Player</i>....that is the definition of the phrase...it is <b>NOT NECESSARILY AN AVATAR</b>
MACs and Drifters are <b>Player Controlled Characters</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The words are NPC, non-player character, and PC, player character.
i.e they are the characters which are and are not the player.
Control is not mentioned in the definition.
Generally for something to be a player character you have to control it, because it's hard to embody something if you can't control it, but the PC doesnt stop being the PC when it's in a cutscene, and an NPC does not become the PC when it joins your group and follows you around.
The PC is the avatar, the NPCs are everyone else.
Whether a player controls a character is not an important distinction to make, the HL2 rebels don't change much when they start taking orders from you, the only change is that you can specify their destination rather than them choosing it entirely autonomously, and a storywriter doesn't need to take into account whether the player gives instructions to a character, they are still the same character either way.
The PC is specifically the player, and have to be written so that they can be played, generally this means having little personality of their own and serving as a vessel for the player's tendencies and emotions and decisions. They have to be capable of expressing things but not inclined to do so without the player wanting them to. At least generally.
You can write a much more separate PC who the player just sort of directs or solves problems for, although generally they feel less like the PC when you do that and more like some guy who keeps appearing in cutscenes. In games like that you can generally totally remove the cutscenes from the gameplay very easily, as the two are largely separate. See for example the resident evil games, in gameplay you shoot zombies and solve puzzles, then watch a cutscene which dumps character stuff on you using the personality pre-written for whichever character the player is controlling. Compare with something like mass effect where shepard has no real personality of his/her own, and it comes entirely from what the player chooses to express.
But it comes back to the simple point that the PC, the player character, must be the avatar of the player. Non player characters are every character that is not a PC.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2010
<!--quoteo(post=1795147:date=Aug 19 2010, 05:48 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Aug 19 2010, 05:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795147"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The PC is the avatar, the NPCs are everyone else. <i>Except for other PC's</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fixed and end of thread <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/shifty.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<!--quoteo(post=1795121:date=Aug 19 2010, 02:26 AM:name=Kwil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kwil @ Aug 19 2010, 02:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795121"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Except for one crucial difference. No player controls the golems or revived monsters. They do their thing on their own. A player is controlling the MAC/Drifter -- the commander. Or doesn't s/he count as a player?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The difference is the commander, upon losing a MAC, will think: "my MAC has been killed" whereas if a skulk were to bite him/her and death followed the thought would be "_I_ have been killed".
Comments
No, direct control is meaning all the time physical representation of the player.
Which a MAC is NOT as you commandeer it, not see the game from it's point of view and move it <b>directly</b>
I think the devs need to declare what they think the builders should be called, and I hope they make up something new.
Which a MAC is NOT as you commandeer it, not see the game from it's point of view and move it <b>directly</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Diablo 2 was a successful online rpg that had a control scheme much like the one used to control MACs. It was top-down and you moved your character by clicking on where you wanted it to go. In your opinion, are the characters in diablo 2 also NPCs?
The simple answer is "npc" and "pc" are labels that don't suit the mixed gamestyle of NS very well. You cannot directly control or "play" a mac, but you can indirectly control it in an overview "RTS" manner. It does have some automated functions.
From an FPS viewpoint, they're NPCs. From an RTS viewpoint, they're not NPCs.
You're assuming that "character"="avatar" which is what we were just pointing out isn't necessarily so. Take a game like Ars Magica, where you play a troupe of characters. Are they not PCs simply because none of them in particular is your avatar? Of course not. The defining factor in whether something is a player character or an NPC is whether one of the players controls it. That the MAC or Drifter has some inbuilt programming does not make it any less player controlled, as it won't suddenly take off on its own or anything like that, it's actions require a player as impetus. After all, a commander could drive it directly by setting an extremely short series of waypoints, much like a player of the marines would drive their own model around, the only difference being whether the view is first-person or top-down.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I respectfully disagree with the above. PC = "avatar" is really the only definition that consistently makes sense. If I'm playing a character in a fantasy game that is "mind controlled" by some other creature with psionic ability - does that mean my character is no longer "me" because I'm not in control anymore ?
In your example of a "troupe" of characters the answer is they are _all_ PCs because they _all_ represent you. There doesnt have to be a strict 1 to 1 mapping. Note though that they represent you _directly_ which is why a creature summoned by your wizard is _not_ considered a PC because it does not directly represent you. In the same way the MAC does not _directly_ represent you and is therefore an NPC.
holy Jesus effing christ in hell, in Diablo II your character is your representation, the MACs are in that context minions you conjured like golems or revived monsters.
Except for one crucial difference. No player controls the golems or revived monsters. They do their thing on their own.
A player is controlling the MAC/Drifter -- the commander. Or doesn't s/he count as a player?
He does command them. Thats a difference from controlling.
Its is <b>NOT</b> <i>necessarily </i>an Avatar...you cannot restrict the definition a <i>player controlled character </i>to only an Avatar (although...this is the case in many games....this is not exclusive)..
Yes. they have personality...but even Avatars do (e.g in many games...if you leave your Avatar for a few min...say you go AFK...they will usually start doing some animation to indicate that they are bored etc etc....)
<b>Player Controlled Characters</b>...are <i>Characters Controlled by the Player</i>....that is the definition of the phrase...it is <b>NOT NECESSARILY AN AVATAR</b>
MACs and Drifters are <b>Player Controlled Characters</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The words are NPC, non-player character, and PC, player character.
i.e they are the characters which are and are not the player.
Control is not mentioned in the definition.
Generally for something to be a player character you have to control it, because it's hard to embody something if you can't control it, but the PC doesnt stop being the PC when it's in a cutscene, and an NPC does not become the PC when it joins your group and follows you around.
The PC is the avatar, the NPCs are everyone else.
Whether a player controls a character is not an important distinction to make, the HL2 rebels don't change much when they start taking orders from you, the only change is that you can specify their destination rather than them choosing it entirely autonomously, and a storywriter doesn't need to take into account whether the player gives instructions to a character, they are still the same character either way.
The PC is specifically the player, and have to be written so that they can be played, generally this means having little personality of their own and serving as a vessel for the player's tendencies and emotions and decisions. They have to be capable of expressing things but not inclined to do so without the player wanting them to. At least generally.
You can write a much more separate PC who the player just sort of directs or solves problems for, although generally they feel less like the PC when you do that and more like some guy who keeps appearing in cutscenes. In games like that you can generally totally remove the cutscenes from the gameplay very easily, as the two are largely separate. See for example the resident evil games, in gameplay you shoot zombies and solve puzzles, then watch a cutscene which dumps character stuff on you using the personality pre-written for whichever character the player is controlling. Compare with something like mass effect where shepard has no real personality of his/her own, and it comes entirely from what the player chooses to express.
But it comes back to the simple point that the PC, the player character, must be the avatar of the player. Non player characters are every character that is not a PC.
Fixed and end of thread <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/shifty.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
A player is controlling the MAC/Drifter -- the commander. Or doesn't s/he count as a player?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The difference is the commander, upon losing a MAC, will think: "my MAC has been killed" whereas if a skulk were to bite him/her and death followed the thought would be "_I_ have been killed".