<!--quoteo(post=1795517:date=Aug 20 2010, 02:41 PM:name=yourbonesakin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yourbonesakin @ Aug 20 2010, 02:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795517"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If shooting while flying was possible, then a high rate of fire weapon would be awesome. I just don't think Unknown Worlds will make a flying model which is A) Smooth enough and B) Is independent of mouse movement. Basically, if you can only fly forward and you must face a marine to shoot and flying reduces accuracy, a high rate of fire weapon heavily discourages flying in combat. Which is Bad Game Design, because flying aliens should be flying while in combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Check out my post in the flying model thread. I've outlined a means whereby the lerk has entirely free mouselook while flying/gliding yet retains directional mobility by making use of the directional keys. What is sacrificed from the NS1 lerk to attain this is any notion of hovering.
<!--quoteo(post=1795570:date=Aug 20 2010, 09:56 PM:name=Kwil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kwil @ Aug 20 2010, 09:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795570"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Check out my post in the flying model thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just reread that. I don't think I quite grasped it the first time through. It does seem like a pretty ideal flight scheme. I'm just concerned about the full loops and banking angles maybe too overly complicating everything for the devs to be very interested in it. I'd certainly be willing to give it a try, but I love making crazy flying maneuvers in NS1 at high-speed.
I do think the key is allowing the lerk to be just a bit more free to do a limited amount of momentum conservation while re-orienting the angle of the x-hairs. I think some horizontal strafing would probably be enough, but I'm all for more interesting and fluid methods. I just don't want a glide-lock and turret-aiming head. Switching from mouse-look to mouse-steering back&forth would be very taxing.
A lot of you seem to have this strange idea that the lerk is a 'flying skulk' and you'll do anything to make it seem like its own lifeform. This 'flying skulk' gang is split into three camps:
The less intelligent simply rail against bite in every argument, whether the counter-arguments set against them are logical or not. If NS1 v1 had lances instead of spikes or ###### laser cannons, these people would prefer them to bite. Why? NOSTALGIA. They forgot how bad the game was back then.
Those that are of intermediate intelligence realise the NS1 spike simply won't do but once again, they seem to lack any sort of logical thought pattern. They cherrypick ideas from other games that don't fit; sniper spikes. Once they've decided this is a good idea, they'll ignore any sort of reasoned argument for why it isn't. In fact, at times I think Charlie fits in this category. And don't come at me with the "it's his game" argument because we're basically all investors - we should have some say in the outcome.
Finally, those with a brain like yourbonesakin come up with a reasoned, logical argument that will sway most of the idiots if they can comprehend or be bothered to read it. Unfortunately, this usually blows over in a few weeks and everybody forgets any of the good suggestions immediately.
Disclaimer: I am basing all of my arguments on gameplay from NS1. I do not believe that this is an erroneous standpoint. People that argue NS2 will be completely different to NS1 are wrong. The way fights take place will be similar in both games because marines have not changed.
Firstly, you may want to read my getsatisfaction (http://getsatisfaction.com/unknownworlds/topics/bring_back_the_v3_lerk) post about why spikes are a terrible idea for a flying alien, but the points have been raised here already, albeit in a slightly different form.
Yourbonesakin, your idea for the shotgun spike is almost entirely equivalent to the current lerk bite we have in NS1. Essentially what you're saying is that we should have an attack that kills in 3 hits (bite2gun versus vanilla marine btw) and is only effective at short range (sounds like a bite doesn't it?). Unfortunately it is a flawed idea since a delay between attacks almost completely negates its effects, as I'll discuss later. You have successfully identified the reasons why spikes are a terrible idea and I respect your suggestion - but don't make it out to be anything other than what it is: an aesthetic change.
Secondly, I wholly disagree with your viewpoint with respect to the idea that flying allows nothing more than what a skulk can achieve. The lerk has access to all areas of the map such as the airspace between roof and floor of every room. If you truly understand the way lerk should be played then you'll understand that this has drastic implications for line of sight abusing such that the lerk can avoid marines more effectively than a skulk. Spatial awareness is absolutely key. Not to mention the fact that a lerk is always faster than a skulk at achieving these position alterations.
I also disagree with your view that if only the best players can play lerk, then it is a bad class altogether. I honestly do not believe that it takes much brainpower to realise that flying straight at a marine is a bad idea. Once a total noob has done that a couple of times and been destroyed, I'm sure that they would learn that it is a bad idea. If they do not learn, then they have been naturally selected. Such people, in the past, would have been killed by virtue of making the same mistakes again and again.
You do not have to be super talented to use the lerk. You simply have to have a brain. Do you honestly believe that in the dogfights of WWII, the pilots flew straight at each other? NO THEY DID NOT. They evaded - the key word here. The ability to evade with the lerk is second to none in NS1. This is another reason why flying is worthwhile. Skulks, gorges and onoses can only jump around and fades are too large to use their blink like flying from an evasion standpoint - the lerk also has a lot more control over where he goes when flying.
I often wonder how you people fly in NS1. The correct way to fly is to have the spacebar depressed and pump it to flap. This means that you are always gliding. I say this because you appear to suggest that the lerk flight model is less accurate than the jetpack flight model. I can only think that this sort of thinking is borne out of playing with flap alone.
So now that I have shown you the value of having a flying alien, I will go back to my earlier point about how the shotgun you proposed wouldn't work. Because you've included a low rate of fire, as Fana said, the comm can med his marines. However, the more pertinent point here is how long a lerk can stay in a battle. By imposing this 6-9 second kill time, you force the lerk to either evade, line of sight abuse or use hit and run tactics. Correct me if I'm wrong but the former two tactics require quite a lot of skill don't they? Also, hit and run tactics would only exacerbate the problem of medding.
I said earlier that I thought this suggestion was merely aesthetic. I did not mean this in a derogatory sense. Aesthetics are the key to getting those ignorant to balance on board. What I propose is to copy the bite2gun exactly, except for increasing the range slightly (~3 metres or something?) and decreasing the refire rate very slightly (I think it was something like 0.6seconds in NS1, maybe up to 0.8seconds). The range change is purely to make it feel more like a shotgun and the refire rate change is purely to balance the extra range. This makes it possible to kill marines before they can kill you or force you to run away.
Now we have a lerk who does not appear to be a 'flying skulk' any more but is essentially the same lifeform. I believe this is an improvement because I think that most of the stigma attached to bite2gun is to do with atmosphere and identity. I think most people like to see each lifeform as a distinct entity with a distinct character.
Have no interest in playing another bite class, especially not the lerk, would much rather it had spikes than bite.
I'd also much rather it wasn't supposed to fly around while attacking, flying is stupidly difficult to control so just use it as a utility power, to move to a good spot quickly.
For the love of god remember that there IS no flight model implemented in NS2 yet. If you find NS1 lerk difficult to control, please make sure you're holding glide :/
Have the instaheal medpacks been confirmed? Removing them adds a dozen new design dilemmas, but it could give lerk combat a bit more space for innovation.
Listen to Sublime, hes one of the best, if not the best lerk in Europe. Lerk will be a boring lifeform compared to his NS1 relative, if the current spikes stay in the game, with any flight model. And I guess that's what they originally said they wanted. :/
Many competitive players don't bother posting on these forums, and there's a reason for it.
Competitive players are a niche of their own. They play games for living. Most of us just want to have fun. Trying to mix these two is a bad idea. You know why.
So my suggestion, as a casual player, is to take a completely different direction. The most fun I had with lerk was when the server installed mods that allowed lerks to carry skulks and gorges. <u>Lerk-taxi!</u> Man, the amount of fun I had when me and a gorge took bile-bomb runs in marine bases, spewing bombs and spores everywhere. At times we got shot down, but not too often to feel grudgy about it and the fun was well worth it. In contrast... trying to get bites in while knowing you'll die in a few shots was frustrating. Especially if there was even one sharpshooter in the marine team. He could annihilate every lerk alone.
Sitting in vents as a spike lerk wasn't that great either, but definitely a step up. It became a problem when marines got grenades and phase gates became easy to build. Spikes simply didn't do enough damage and nades finishes you off in one shot. Rines usually were smart enough to hide right under the vent too, knowing that if you got closer, they could shoot you and threw a grenade before you could flee. Either way, you got busted. Probably the reason why I didn't see lerks as a very good option, when fades were just a little bit more expensive and vastly superior for the price.
Therefore making lerks a taxi/bomber class would make sense. You can have fun behind the lines by carrying stuff around and help at the front with bombing runs, spores, and umbra. I would be sorely disappointed if NS2 featured a bite lerk.
Wirhe: Uh, as I understand it, Competitive is not the same as Professional. Professionals are competitive, but competitive players aren't all professional. Maybe it's just semantics.
Wirhe, I don't see how current NS1 Lerk would only be fun for competitive players but not for casual players. I haven't heard that before and naturally I have played a lot of public. Actually learning to lerk against equally-skilled players is probably easier than learning to skulk bunnyhop.
In my opinion learning current NS1 Lerk is rather intuitive and it has great depth. Just like Starcraft,, its good both for "casual" and "competitive".
I suggested the lerk as a bombing class earlier, for no particular reason. Still think it would be cool.
Here are my thoughts on the situation that there seems to be a lot of agro about.
When it comes to BITE vs SHOTGUN vs SPIKES, consideration 'HAS' to be paid towards the different classes. For this game to work successfully, they have to have pros/cons and compliment each other in this regard. Otherwise it is just a solo play game. To get people to work together , you have to - cleverly - FORCE them to. *See L4D2 comment below.
We have a game which is an RTS and FPS mix.
We have a commander who organises a team.
We have a team that are expected to <u>'work together'</u>. (I think L4D2 did this wonderfully, by having weak zombie specials - but together as a team, lethal)
The lerk in NS1 (imo) was an incredibly good class, and when it did have bite.. it was a flying skulk. In, kill, out again.
The only issue I had with the lerk, is that if you were a marine and one v one, the lerk tended to come out on top. Unless you have an amazing setup with a huge awesome monitor perhaps. Because when lerks move very quickly on screen, it is not like watching a cat run through my garden. It is like watching and aiming at a flapping refresh rate.
The important part: The skill it had to 'compliment' the team was umbra, but as a support class (holding back/doing umbra/scream(rally)whatever) the spikes were a better option. Because when you are pumping out the umbra, you are then switching back to spikes to spam the bottleneck. That or doing a retreating attack, firing spikes whilst moving back from a recently destroyed res node.
Spikes were also a pain the arse, when map designers placed vents high up, and the lerk could retreat to safety very quickly and easily and spend the rest of the time firing them off without having to worry much. Unless someone had a grenade/grenade launcher and a very good first time aim.
The thing is, was that actually a bad thing? If something can't be countered, it is a pain in the arse! The speedy lerk with bite is hard to handle, unless you have more than yourself to hand, is difficult to.
The question for me is, if this is a 'support' class then should it have bite? Or is it taking on part of the skulks role, in the thick of things... because as an advanced attack role, there is of course the fade. So does there need to be a third?
Another thing is that people are saying that NS2 will be similar to NS1. I think you are right in ways, but very wrong in others. In NS2 we are going to see a flame thrower. If this is something that is going to be a lot cheaper, are we going to see lerks falling out of the sky on fire a lot? Or how is it going to react to vents? Will it send out a long thin amount of flame that will travel down vents?
It is hard to call.
For me, the lerk is an awesome support class. It sits on the battle line (forced to by the fact it does not have bite) giving off umbras, spamming with spikes and then doing its screech thing (is that in?) whereby the rest of the team rush in to attack.
It is also great at support behind the lines, because it can move to any area of the map quickly, and start to piss off (not totally destroy) those who are trying to creep into different areas.
Skulk is a sacrifice class. It is on the front lines doing bread and butter stuff.
The Gorge is a support class, but tends to be slightly behind the line on which you fight. Either running away from oncoming doom because its so fat/healing/ or dropping turrets.
The lerk is a support class, but in a broader sense over the map. Tends to be supporting skulks, pissing off marines or defending before a base attack. (Not in NS1)
The fade is a heavy attack class, but more hit and run. Sort of a shock an awe.
The onos is super heavy, and a base clearer. End game territory.
The thing I think people worry about (as do I) is how satisfying it was to fly around as lerk and get the bite kill. Sitting on the floor firing spikes repeatedly was really very boring, especially as the damage done was not relative. It was also rubbish if you went into a base whilst everyone cleared up, and your aggressive plan of action was to find a corner and spam. You really want to be flying whilst attacking, because it made the class unique.
I think some kind of bomb would be cool, because it could be powerful (satisfying kills/splash), but require skill to drop fairly accurately. Maybe looping upwards whilst releasing would send it flying forwards, so you could make use of great flying skills to effect the outcome. How cool would it be seeing videos of lerks taking sharp turns, releasing and hitting marines 20 meters down a corridor, rather than it just dropping at a steep angle as in steady flight (base attack?).
As for what is actually implemented, I don't mind. As long as it doesn't water down the different classes, but makes them unique and support one another whilst having pros and cons.
I find the lerk to be one of the hardest classes to be effective with. Being able to maneuver, aim, and keep your speed up is pretty difficult. All the while mashing the spacebar (as i did when i first started playing). So when I do play lerk, I tend to vent camp and just range harass. Which isnt much fun.
I'd like an attack that encourages me to fly around instead of vent camping, encourages me to get close but doesnt penalize me by dead stopping my momentum if i run into an enemy. I think the shotgun attack sounds reasonable. Or a way to glance off a player after a bite and keep some speed.
On a side note bomb runs sound awesome. Im thinking each hive slowly produces a bomb. The more hives the more bombing. Gives a reason for the lerk to use his mobility and patrol the map. Most importantly it just sounds fun.
<!--quoteo(post=1795628:date=Aug 21 2010, 08:36 AM:name=Sublime)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sublime @ Aug 21 2010, 08:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795628"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So now that I have shown you the value of having a flying alien, I will go back to my earlier point about how the shotgun you proposed wouldn't work. Because you've included a low rate of fire, as Fana said, the comm can med his marines. However, the more pertinent point here is how long a lerk can stay in a battle. By imposing this 6-9 second kill time, you force the lerk to either evade, line of sight abuse or use hit and run tactics. Correct me if I'm wrong but the former two tactics require quite a lot of skill don't they? Also, hit and run tactics would only exacerbate the problem of medding.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, in a later post I clarified what I meant by short range because I thought short range clearly meant more than melee range and less than long range. So I said middle range to clarify because it actually wasn't clear at all. By middle range I mean 4 meters or so. Basically the damage fall off of the NS1 Marine shotgun, but a little better (?). Someone brought medspam so I said a 2 shot kill would be the best (90 max damage does this).
So a 2 shot kill is something like a 3 second kill. 3 seconds to kill is really not all that bad, considering the lerk would have considerable reach with a shotgun attack, so they actually start attacking about the same time skulks leap and skulks take about 1.5 seconds to kill if all their bites land.
I just threw out 3 seconds so people wouldn't jump down my throat for suggesting something imbalanced and overpowered (like shotguns which one-shot skulks and no one blinks at....). So perhaps I went too far and made something imbalanced and underpowered.
If the recharge time was the same as the kill time for the current rapidfire spikes, we'd have the same expected lerk survival time we have now. Assuming NS2's lerk flight mode sucks terrible ass for dogfighting (IE: no strafing, not smooth), lerks would also be able to fly in between shotgun shots; meaning they could fly while fighting, but using rapidfire spikes would make such things impossible except for amazingly talented gamers who can fight the controls.
Lerks using rapidfire spikes kill in what, 2 seconds? Something like that? Make whatever that period is into the recharge time for lerks and we just fixed some issues.
If the flight model is awesome for actually shooting while flying so we don't have to make excuses for it being terrible like saying flight is great for line of sight abuse (Read: hiding behind doodads), then it doesn't matter if we go for rapidfire or rocketblaster because both options work. I'm just assuming the flight model will not lend itself to rapidfire weapons. Rocketblaster works even if the flight model sucks terrible ass because you don't need to shoot and fly simultaneously, but you can still fly in between attacks.
PS: Sublime, you totally did not offend me and you were absolutely correct in your analysis. Thanks for bringing up those issues.
PSS: A bombing run attack could also be a two shot kill, low rate of fire, easily aimed attack. It sounds totally awesome on paper and pretty damn intuitive for new players. I'm thinking something like Bile Bomb, except damaging players, and less damaging (since 200 damage is too much, lol).
The 2.0 Lerk had a very uninteresting playstyle. Very passive, very boring, very limited in options.
The 3.0/bite was so much better for the following reasons:
1) It added a whole new dynamic of risk vs reward. Should I put my life on the line and try to land 3 bites in a row, or play it safe and take off after 1 bite and wait for backup? Will attempting to kill this shotgunner be a game breaker? Should I play it safe and focus on surviving?
2) It was more fun and engaging to play, not in the least because of reason #1. You still had the option of sitting in a vent all game long and being a pain in the ass, but the big thing was, you had a choice to do so, instead of it being the only way to play.
3) It had a high skill ceiling. Anyone with enough tactical knowledge can be a good passive lerk. Not everyone has the skill to apply get away with playing an aggressive lerk.
All of this and yet the lerk was still the support class it was intended to be. Sure, one lerk could run an entire team over by himself if there was a big skill gap. But given equal skill levels, a lerk's strength was in harrassment, distraction and, indeed, support.
I hate the idea of the lerk class being pigeonholed back into the passive stay-away playstyle.
@ Harimau: Maybe. I view them the same way: the 5% that owns 95%. Just saying that all the fun things shouldn't be taken away in the name of competitive gameplay or balance. Infinite lerk flight was fun, but was snapped away almost as soon as it was introduced. Insta-cloaking sensory chambers were fun, but were nerfed to even it out. Super-tough heavies were fun, but again they got hit by the nerf hammer. (Granted, it came as a part of the package when NS1 v2 was introduced.)
@ Runteh: How 1v1 ends depends almost completely on the aiming skill of the marine when both are at full health. Pancaking was effective only against that 95%. That 5% (that one player in the team) would still shoot you down. Besides, lerks had so little health that by the time marines had full upgrades you had to be either a total nutcake to try to bite them or part of that 5% that can dodge bullets blindfolded. Biting is the job of skulks. Risking valuable resources to do the same is foolish.
On the other hand, spamming umbra and spores was fun. Spikes could do when rines were preoccupied. Notice the difference here? I like it, you find it boring :p
I remember back far enough using lerk spikes and umbra for taking out sentry guns. After they removed it, that had become a non-option. Aliens do need a cheap shooting weapon of some sort. What is the purpose of having a lerk if it has the same attack role as a skulk does? I like the idea of a med range shotgun type spike. Or an extremely inaccurate spike.
Also to those saying shooting spikes is boring... the marines seem to have no problem with shooting weapons.
<!--quoteo(post=1795417:date=Aug 20 2010, 12:13 PM:name=Delphic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Delphic @ Aug 20 2010, 12:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795417"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Surely we could just give the shotgun spikes a high rate of fire but a high adrenaline usage to balance... that's the point of the alien energy bar isn't it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just reminding everybody that we have more ways to limit damage output, or balance it with regards to survivability, than RoF and damage-per-shot.
Well, everyone on these forums has their own likes and dislikes. That is something you can't argue with :P
But comparative, I thought swooping down and killing marines was more satisfying and easier to do. Especially if they are occupied with other battles, such as with skulks or trying to take down gorge and OC placements. Flying and spiking was a pain, because really you had to be gliding at which point you were an easy take down.
Sitting in vents, not flying and spamming spikes is not unique. As a marine I found it incredibly annoying, and hard to counter at times. Especially new players who don't know where death is coming from. Plus you have to know the level inside and out to know where all the vents are and hiding spots.
You do realise you have quoted pancaking works against 95% of people on a team. Those are incredibly good odds and worth the risk. And 1v1 spikes is easy, because you just fire and move until the marine dies.
For new players bite/spike is a bloodbath. If it were a bomb, you would recognise the class when it was flying and would have to be flying. Plus it fills that role as support, whereby 1v1s become a lot fairer and it would happen in situations when more than one is attacking.
Plus it gives a level of learning curve (for pro play) if combined with flying, because it makes use of those skills to fling it (like a rocket) if you can do... and it could be a high powered attack too with splash.
I think I would rather see gorges/lerks supporting a main attack force of skulks, which then moves onto fades/onos later on in the game.
But, I don't think this is a discussion that will end. So maybe we should agree that we all disagree ;)
I would rather see spikes than bite though, like most people here it seems.
<!--quoteo(post=1795724:date=Aug 22 2010, 11:29 AM:name=crode)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crode @ Aug 22 2010, 11:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795724"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I remember back far enough using lerk spikes and umbra for taking out sentry guns. After they removed it, that had become a non-option. Aliens do need a cheap shooting weapon of some sort. What is the purpose of having a lerk if it has the same attack role as a skulk does? I like the idea of a med range shotgun type spike. Or an extremely inaccurate spike.
Also to those saying shooting spikes is boring... the marines seem to have no problem with shooting weapons.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Spikes are boring because where as marines can chase down aliens and score great kills, etc. Lerks are so weak that they can't be in view, and sitting in a corner whilst knowing you can fly and spamming, imo, is boring. It removes the risk of death.
The most satisfying thing in games is taking on a large number and taking them out, with massive risk and adrenaline.
That is what made CS awesome, because there were those times when you could take down a whole team in clan matches in a few seconds. But you were equally at risk from doing so, but it pays off.
<!--quoteo(post=1795724:date=Aug 22 2010, 01:29 PM:name=crode)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crode @ Aug 22 2010, 01:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795724"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What is the purpose of having a lerk if it has the same attack role as a skulk does?
Also to those saying shooting spikes is boring... the marines seem to have no problem with shooting weapons.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> After skulk starts farting gas and flying I think I can agree.
Chances are you are playing incorrectly if you cant tell the difference.
<!--quoteo(post=1795643:date=Aug 21 2010, 04:29 PM:name=Jiriki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jiriki @ Aug 21 2010, 04:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795643"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Listen to Sublime, hes one of the best, if not the best lerk in Europe. Lerk will be a boring lifeform compared to his NS1 relative, if the current spikes stay in the game, with any flight model. And I guess that's what they originally said they wanted. :/
Many competitive players don't bother posting on these forums, and there's a reason for it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It already is a boring lifeform. Hence why I want it changed.
I want the opportunity to use my brain for once rather than relying entirely on reflex skills. The alien classes in general sort of entirely lack that. The entire game does really, although gorges are certainly a thinking class and marines generally benefit from good positioning, the whole game could use some adjustment to add something to it other than being a completely twitch shooter.
A ranged class with the ability to reach any location is an ideal platform for conversion into an positioning and ambush based class.
<!--quoteo(post=1795736:date=Aug 22 2010, 02:32 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Aug 22 2010, 02:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795736"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It already is a boring lifeform. Hence why I want it changed.
I want the opportunity to use my brain for once rather than relying entirely on reflex skills. The alien classes in general sort of entirely lack that. The entire game does really, although gorges are certainly a thinking class and marines generally benefit from good positioning, the whole game could use some adjustment to add something to it other than being a completely twitch shooter.
A ranged class with the ability to reach any location is an ideal platform for conversion into an positioning and ambush based class.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did you even play ns? You probably also think Quake is decided by the best aim as well..
<!--quoteo(post=1795736:date=Aug 22 2010, 03:32 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Aug 22 2010, 03:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795736"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It already is a boring lifeform. Hence why I want it changed.
I want the opportunity to use my brain for once rather than relying entirely on reflex skills. The alien classes in general sort of entirely lack that. The entire game does really, although gorges are certainly a thinking class and marines generally benefit from good positioning, the whole game could use some adjustment to add something to it other than being a completely twitch shooter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm sorry if you cant play the currect lerk but its all about the usage of "brain" atm. Anyone with game sense can play lerk well, if you want to be aggressive (very) thats a different story. Stating that alienplay is not about thinking and coordination is plain nonsense you get very far with those things ALONE.
The thing you really want is foolproof mechanic where you get few sure-shot kills from distance with almost zero risk.
<!--quoteo(post=1795737:date=Aug 22 2010, 02:52 PM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tjosan @ Aug 22 2010, 02:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795737"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Did you even play ns? You probably also think Quake is decided by the best aim as well..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, yeah, it kind of is, because if you can't aim you can't do anything in quake given that the railgun is easily the most powerful weapon and it's also the sniper rifle. Even guns that you would think are spammy guns like the rocket launcher benefit from excellent prediciton skills, and movement ability is integral to performance with any weapon. Quake is a twitch shooter, and nothing else, which is why I haven't played it in years.
While it is entirely possible if everyone is really good at reflex then the game could have some sort of strategic component, as that would be the only way to gain an edge, the fact that not everyone IS good at reflex means that strategy is a lot rarer, and also impossible unless you happen to be really good at aiming.
No amount of intelligent thought will get you far in NS unless you are also a very good marksman, I don't have any interest in developing shooting skills and would much rather have some classes which don't require it.
For all that I hate team fortress two in general, the ability to team up with a friend as heavy and medic and do some serious damage just by working together well and attacking the most vital areas with your ubercharge and staying alive between deployments is something I don't see in any other game, and it is easily one of TF2s best features. I can quite happily jump into the game and perform well as either class in a pair, because neither requires twitch skills, but both require you to think about who and what you attack. I am very good at thinking, but have no natural talent or interest in developing reflex skills. A game based on them is not entertaining to me.
<!--quoteo(post=1795738:date=Aug 22 2010, 02:59 PM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Aug 22 2010, 02:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795738"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The thing you really want is foolproof mechanic where you get few sure-shot kills from distance with almost zero risk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes I'd simply love that because it wouldn't be at all annoying to play a game where you have to fight against that...
Chris0132, you say you don't want to develop shooting skills but you want spike. What? I might make a video of a match where I talk about all of the things I'm thinking about. It might help you realise that lerk is a strategic, intelligent class.
Harimau that's a very good point. We aren't professional and we don't get paid to play NS1 competitively. It's just that we find that style much more enjoyable than public play. Why should we be penalised for wanting to play the game a certain way? I'll talk about this a little later.
Runteh, you talk about enjoying team balance and forcing people to work as a team, yet you cite 1v1 lerk situations as reasons why the NS1 lerk is imbalanced? This seems a little silly to me. Also, since the lerk can fly, why should he have to stop and wait around on the ground, shooting spikes? The whole point of being able to fly is to use it surely! What you must understand is that us bite lerkers are support players too. If there is a shotgun out I will very seldom show my face and late game we become spore/umbra spammers. Umbra and spore are instant shot weapons, spike would require you to be stationary within line of sight of a marine, this is a big difference. You may get a different impression from public play, since often we act suicidally because the outcome isn't as important as it usually is to us. For example in competitive play if I die early, I let my team down in a big way.
yourbonesakin, thank you for not being offended, I know my argumentative style can offend people quite easily so it's good that you've looked past it. Also I kind of skipped a couple of pages since I was in a hurry yesterday :D so I didn't see the range clarification. I would be careful about the marine shotgun though; since random spread it's only at very close range that you can ensure a 1 shot. What must be stressed is your point that flying whilst shooting a high rate of fire weapon is not possible. Unless you can alternate between dodging and shooting at a high frequency, this is basically impossible. This means that my style of gameplay would be completely done away with. I find it slightly offensive that a lot of you seem to be happy to do this simply because you don't enjoy it. It is possible at the moment to vent camp and sporespam whilst supporting with umbra or whathaveyou. However, with spikes, my way of gaming would be barely viable. I'm also sure that there are a lot of pub players who enjoy bitelerk.
What is needed most is a happy medium between our two styles of play; ventcamping support and aggressive support. I'm open to this bombing suggestion, but I suspect the spike lobby wouldn't be because it requires getting close.
I think the shotgun spike with a damage drop off over range (pellets perhaps, or just energy loss over range like with bullets in APB and other games) is the perfect compromise. Ventcampers can use the shotgun in the same way they would use spikes but they are not imbalanced since they cannot camp vents from a long way away. Also you could make the lerk shotgun spike very, very loud to make it clear to noobs where it's coming from. To nullify the effect of silence in this case you'd have to make it fairly adrenaline expensive. Closer range players like me could still get their kicks and although it'd more deadly in 1v1 situations if the damage is as high as you suggest, the size of the NS2 lerk should balance this.
Comments
Check out my post in the flying model thread. I've outlined a means whereby the lerk has entirely free mouselook while flying/gliding yet retains directional mobility by making use of the directional keys. What is sacrificed from the NS1 lerk to attain this is any notion of hovering.
Just reread that. I don't think I quite grasped it the first time through. It does seem like a pretty ideal flight scheme. I'm just concerned about the full loops and banking angles maybe too overly complicating everything for the devs to be very interested in it. I'd certainly be willing to give it a try, but I love making crazy flying maneuvers in NS1 at high-speed.
I do think the key is allowing the lerk to be just a bit more free to do a limited amount of momentum conservation while re-orienting the angle of the x-hairs. I think some horizontal strafing would probably be enough, but I'm all for more interesting and fluid methods. I just don't want a glide-lock and turret-aiming head. Switching from mouse-look to mouse-steering back&forth would be very taxing.
The less intelligent simply rail against bite in every argument, whether the counter-arguments set against them are logical or not. If NS1 v1 had lances instead of spikes or ###### laser cannons, these people would prefer them to bite. Why? NOSTALGIA. They forgot how bad the game was back then.
Those that are of intermediate intelligence realise the NS1 spike simply won't do but once again, they seem to lack any sort of logical thought pattern. They cherrypick ideas from other games that don't fit; sniper spikes. Once they've decided this is a good idea, they'll ignore any sort of reasoned argument for why it isn't. In fact, at times I think Charlie fits in this category. And don't come at me with the "it's his game" argument because we're basically all investors - we should have some say in the outcome.
Finally, those with a brain like yourbonesakin come up with a reasoned, logical argument that will sway most of the idiots if they can comprehend or be bothered to read it. Unfortunately, this usually blows over in a few weeks and everybody forgets any of the good suggestions immediately.
Disclaimer: I am basing all of my arguments on gameplay from NS1. I do not believe that this is an erroneous standpoint. People that argue NS2 will be completely different to NS1 are wrong. The way fights take place will be similar in both games because marines have not changed.
Firstly, you may want to read my getsatisfaction (http://getsatisfaction.com/unknownworlds/topics/bring_back_the_v3_lerk) post about why spikes are a terrible idea for a flying alien, but the points have been raised here already, albeit in a slightly different form.
Yourbonesakin, your idea for the shotgun spike is almost entirely equivalent to the current lerk bite we have in NS1. Essentially what you're saying is that we should have an attack that kills in 3 hits (bite2gun versus vanilla marine btw) and is only effective at short range (sounds like a bite doesn't it?). Unfortunately it is a flawed idea since a delay between attacks almost completely negates its effects, as I'll discuss later. You have successfully identified the reasons why spikes are a terrible idea and I respect your suggestion - but don't make it out to be anything other than what it is: an aesthetic change.
Secondly, I wholly disagree with your viewpoint with respect to the idea that flying allows nothing more than what a skulk can achieve. The lerk has access to all areas of the map such as the airspace between roof and floor of every room. If you truly understand the way lerk should be played then you'll understand that this has drastic implications for line of sight abusing such that the lerk can avoid marines more effectively than a skulk. Spatial awareness is absolutely key. Not to mention the fact that a lerk is always faster than a skulk at achieving these position alterations.
I also disagree with your view that if only the best players can play lerk, then it is a bad class altogether. I honestly do not believe that it takes much brainpower to realise that flying straight at a marine is a bad idea. Once a total noob has done that a couple of times and been destroyed, I'm sure that they would learn that it is a bad idea. If they do not learn, then they have been naturally selected. Such people, in the past, would have been killed by virtue of making the same mistakes again and again.
You do not have to be super talented to use the lerk. You simply have to have a brain. Do you honestly believe that in the dogfights of WWII, the pilots flew straight at each other? NO THEY DID NOT. They evaded - the key word here. The ability to evade with the lerk is second to none in NS1. This is another reason why flying is worthwhile. Skulks, gorges and onoses can only jump around and fades are too large to use their blink like flying from an evasion standpoint - the lerk also has a lot more control over where he goes when flying.
I often wonder how you people fly in NS1. The correct way to fly is to have the spacebar depressed and pump it to flap. This means that you are always gliding. I say this because you appear to suggest that the lerk flight model is less accurate than the jetpack flight model. I can only think that this sort of thinking is borne out of playing with flap alone.
So now that I have shown you the value of having a flying alien, I will go back to my earlier point about how the shotgun you proposed wouldn't work. Because you've included a low rate of fire, as Fana said, the comm can med his marines. However, the more pertinent point here is how long a lerk can stay in a battle. By imposing this 6-9 second kill time, you force the lerk to either evade, line of sight abuse or use hit and run tactics. Correct me if I'm wrong but the former two tactics require quite a lot of skill don't they? Also, hit and run tactics would only exacerbate the problem of medding.
I said earlier that I thought this suggestion was merely aesthetic. I did not mean this in a derogatory sense. Aesthetics are the key to getting those ignorant to balance on board. What I propose is to copy the bite2gun exactly, except for increasing the range slightly (~3 metres or something?) and decreasing the refire rate very slightly (I think it was something like 0.6seconds in NS1, maybe up to 0.8seconds). The range change is purely to make it feel more like a shotgun and the refire rate change is purely to balance the extra range. This makes it possible to kill marines before they can kill you or force you to run away.
Now we have a lerk who does not appear to be a 'flying skulk' any more but is essentially the same lifeform. I believe this is an improvement because I think that most of the stigma attached to bite2gun is to do with atmosphere and identity. I think most people like to see each lifeform as a distinct entity with a distinct character.
I'd also much rather it wasn't supposed to fly around while attacking, flying is stupidly difficult to control so just use it as a utility power, to move to a good spot quickly.
Although spikes are retarded.
Many competitive players don't bother posting on these forums, and there's a reason for it.
So my suggestion, as a casual player, is to take a completely different direction. The most fun I had with lerk was when the server installed mods that allowed lerks to carry skulks and gorges. <u>Lerk-taxi!</u> Man, the amount of fun I had when me and a gorge took bile-bomb runs in marine bases, spewing bombs and spores everywhere. At times we got shot down, but not too often to feel grudgy about it and the fun was well worth it. In contrast... trying to get bites in while knowing you'll die in a few shots was frustrating. Especially if there was even one sharpshooter in the marine team. He could annihilate every lerk alone.
Sitting in vents as a spike lerk wasn't that great either, but definitely a step up. It became a problem when marines got grenades and phase gates became easy to build. Spikes simply didn't do enough damage and nades finishes you off in one shot. Rines usually were smart enough to hide right under the vent too, knowing that if you got closer, they could shoot you and threw a grenade before you could flee. Either way, you got busted. Probably the reason why I didn't see lerks as a very good option, when fades were just a little bit more expensive and vastly superior for the price.
Therefore making lerks a taxi/bomber class would make sense. You can have fun behind the lines by carrying stuff around and help at the front with bombing runs, spores, and umbra. I would be sorely disappointed if NS2 featured a bite lerk.
Wirhe: Uh, as I understand it, Competitive is not the same as Professional. Professionals are competitive, but competitive players aren't all professional. Maybe it's just semantics.
In my opinion learning current NS1 Lerk is rather intuitive and it has great depth. Just like Starcraft,, its good both for "casual" and "competitive".
Here are my thoughts on the situation that there seems to be a lot of agro about.
When it comes to BITE vs SHOTGUN vs SPIKES, consideration 'HAS' to be paid towards the different classes. For this game to work successfully, they have to have pros/cons and compliment each other in this regard. Otherwise it is just a solo play game. To get people to work together , you have to - cleverly - FORCE them to. *See L4D2 comment below.
We have a game which is an RTS and FPS mix.
We have a commander who organises a team.
We have a team that are expected to <u>'work together'</u>. (I think L4D2 did this wonderfully, by having weak zombie specials - but together as a team, lethal)
The lerk in NS1 (imo) was an incredibly good class, and when it did have bite.. it was a flying skulk. In, kill, out again.
The only issue I had with the lerk, is that if you were a marine and one v one, the lerk tended to come out on top. Unless you have an amazing setup with a huge awesome monitor perhaps. Because when lerks move very quickly on screen, it is not like watching a cat run through my garden. It is like watching and aiming at a flapping refresh rate.
The important part: The skill it had to 'compliment' the team was umbra, but as a support class (holding back/doing umbra/scream(rally)whatever) the spikes were a better option. Because when you are pumping out the umbra, you are then switching back to spikes to spam the bottleneck. That or doing a retreating attack, firing spikes whilst moving back from a recently destroyed res node.
Spikes were also a pain the arse, when map designers placed vents high up, and the lerk could retreat to safety very quickly and easily and spend the rest of the time firing them off without having to worry much. Unless someone had a grenade/grenade launcher and a very good first time aim.
The thing is, was that actually a bad thing? If something can't be countered, it is a pain in the arse! The speedy lerk with bite is hard to handle, unless you have more than yourself to hand, is difficult to.
The question for me is, if this is a 'support' class then should it have bite? Or is it taking on part of the skulks role, in the thick of things... because as an advanced attack role, there is of course the fade. So does there need to be a third?
Another thing is that people are saying that NS2 will be similar to NS1. I think you are right in ways, but very wrong in others. In NS2 we are going to see a flame thrower. If this is something that is going to be a lot cheaper, are we going to see lerks falling out of the sky on fire a lot? Or how is it going to react to vents? Will it send out a long thin amount of flame that will travel down vents?
It is hard to call.
For me, the lerk is an awesome support class. It sits on the battle line (forced to by the fact it does not have bite) giving off umbras, spamming with spikes and then doing its screech thing (is that in?) whereby the rest of the team rush in to attack.
It is also great at support behind the lines, because it can move to any area of the map quickly, and start to piss off (not totally destroy) those who are trying to creep into different areas.
Skulk is a sacrifice class. It is on the front lines doing bread and butter stuff.
The Gorge is a support class, but tends to be slightly behind the line on which you fight. Either running away from oncoming doom because its so fat/healing/ or dropping turrets.
The lerk is a support class, but in a broader sense over the map. Tends to be supporting skulks, pissing off marines or defending before a base attack. (Not in NS1)
The fade is a heavy attack class, but more hit and run. Sort of a shock an awe.
The onos is super heavy, and a base clearer. End game territory.
The thing I think people worry about (as do I) is how satisfying it was to fly around as lerk and get the bite kill. Sitting on the floor firing spikes repeatedly was really very boring, especially as the damage done was not relative. It was also rubbish if you went into a base whilst everyone cleared up, and your aggressive plan of action was to find a corner and spam. You really want to be flying whilst attacking, because it made the class unique.
I think some kind of bomb would be cool, because it could be powerful (satisfying kills/splash), but require skill to drop fairly accurately. Maybe looping upwards whilst releasing would send it flying forwards, so you could make use of great flying skills to effect the outcome. How cool would it be seeing videos of lerks taking sharp turns, releasing and hitting marines 20 meters down a corridor, rather than it just dropping at a steep angle as in steady flight (base attack?).
As for what is actually implemented, I don't mind. As long as it doesn't water down the different classes, but makes them unique and support one another whilst having pros and cons.
Its more like the saying 'An empty vessel makes the most noise'.
The same saying appears to be the basis of sublime's post as well.
I'd like an attack that encourages me to fly around instead of vent camping, encourages me to get close but doesnt penalize me by dead stopping my momentum if i run into an enemy. I think the shotgun attack sounds reasonable. Or a way to glance off a player after a bite and keep some speed.
On a side note bomb runs sound awesome. Im thinking each hive slowly produces a bomb. The more hives the more bombing. Gives a reason for the lerk to use his mobility and patrol the map. Most importantly it just sounds fun.
Yeah, in a later post I clarified what I meant by short range because I thought short range clearly meant more than melee range and less than long range. So I said middle range to clarify because it actually wasn't clear at all. By middle range I mean 4 meters or so. Basically the damage fall off of the NS1 Marine shotgun, but a little better (?). Someone brought medspam so I said a 2 shot kill would be the best (90 max damage does this).
So a 2 shot kill is something like a 3 second kill. 3 seconds to kill is really not all that bad, considering the lerk would have considerable reach with a shotgun attack, so they actually start attacking about the same time skulks leap and skulks take about 1.5 seconds to kill if all their bites land.
I just threw out 3 seconds so people wouldn't jump down my throat for suggesting something imbalanced and overpowered (like shotguns which one-shot skulks and no one blinks at....). So perhaps I went too far and made something imbalanced and underpowered.
If the recharge time was the same as the kill time for the current rapidfire spikes, we'd have the same expected lerk survival time we have now. Assuming NS2's lerk flight mode sucks terrible ass for dogfighting (IE: no strafing, not smooth), lerks would also be able to fly in between shotgun shots; meaning they could fly while fighting, but using rapidfire spikes would make such things impossible except for amazingly talented gamers who can fight the controls.
Lerks using rapidfire spikes kill in what, 2 seconds? Something like that? Make whatever that period is into the recharge time for lerks and we just fixed some issues.
If the flight model is awesome for actually shooting while flying so we don't have to make excuses for it being terrible like saying flight is great for line of sight abuse (Read: hiding behind doodads), then it doesn't matter if we go for rapidfire or rocketblaster because both options work. I'm just assuming the flight model will not lend itself to rapidfire weapons. Rocketblaster works even if the flight model sucks terrible ass because you don't need to shoot and fly simultaneously, but you can still fly in between attacks.
PS: Sublime, you totally did not offend me and you were absolutely correct in your analysis. Thanks for bringing up those issues.
PSS: A bombing run attack could also be a two shot kill, low rate of fire, easily aimed attack. It sounds totally awesome on paper and pretty damn intuitive for new players. I'm thinking something like Bile Bomb, except damaging players, and less damaging (since 200 damage is too much, lol).
The 3.0/bite was so much better for the following reasons:
1) It added a whole new dynamic of risk vs reward. Should I put my life on the line and try to land 3 bites in a row, or play it safe and take off after 1 bite and wait for backup? Will attempting to kill this shotgunner be a game breaker? Should I play it safe and focus on surviving?
2) It was more fun and engaging to play, not in the least because of reason #1. You still had the option of sitting in a vent all game long and being a pain in the ass, but the big thing was, you had a choice to do so, instead of it being the only way to play.
3) It had a high skill ceiling. Anyone with enough tactical knowledge can be a good passive lerk. Not everyone has the skill to apply get away with playing an aggressive lerk.
All of this and yet the lerk was still the support class it was intended to be. Sure, one lerk could run an entire team over by himself if there was a big skill gap. But given equal skill levels, a lerk's strength was in harrassment, distraction and, indeed, support.
I hate the idea of the lerk class being pigeonholed back into the passive stay-away playstyle.
@ Runteh: How 1v1 ends depends almost completely on the aiming skill of the marine when both are at full health. Pancaking was effective only against that 95%. That 5% (that one player in the team) would still shoot you down. Besides, lerks had so little health that by the time marines had full upgrades you had to be either a total nutcake to try to bite them or part of that 5% that can dodge bullets blindfolded. Biting is the job of skulks. Risking valuable resources to do the same is foolish.
On the other hand, spamming umbra and spores was fun. Spikes could do when rines were preoccupied. Notice the difference here? I like it, you find it boring :p
Also to those saying shooting spikes is boring... the marines seem to have no problem with shooting weapons.
Just reminding everybody that we have more ways to limit damage output, or balance it with regards to survivability, than RoF and damage-per-shot.
And more different from skulks.
My five cents goes to spikes.
But comparative, I thought swooping down and killing marines was more satisfying and easier to do. Especially if they are occupied with other battles, such as with skulks or trying to take down gorge and OC placements. Flying and spiking was a pain, because really you had to be gliding at which point you were an easy take down.
Sitting in vents, not flying and spamming spikes is not unique. As a marine I found it incredibly annoying, and hard to counter at times. Especially new players who don't know where death is coming from. Plus you have to know the level inside and out to know where all the vents are and hiding spots.
You do realise you have quoted pancaking works against 95% of people on a team. Those are incredibly good odds and worth the risk. And 1v1 spikes is easy, because you just fire and move until the marine dies.
For new players bite/spike is a bloodbath. If it were a bomb, you would recognise the class when it was flying and would have to be flying. Plus it fills that role as support, whereby 1v1s become a lot fairer and it would happen in situations when more than one is attacking.
Plus it gives a level of learning curve (for pro play) if combined with flying, because it makes use of those skills to fling it (like a rocket) if you can do... and it could be a high powered attack too with splash.
I think I would rather see gorges/lerks supporting a main attack force of skulks, which then moves onto fades/onos later on in the game.
But, I don't think this is a discussion that will end. So maybe we should agree that we all disagree ;)
I would rather see spikes than bite though, like most people here it seems.
Also to those saying shooting spikes is boring... the marines seem to have no problem with shooting weapons.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Spikes are boring because where as marines can chase down aliens and score great kills, etc. Lerks are so weak that they can't be in view, and sitting in a corner whilst knowing you can fly and spamming, imo, is boring. It removes the risk of death.
The most satisfying thing in games is taking on a large number and taking them out, with massive risk and adrenaline.
That is what made CS awesome, because there were those times when you could take down a whole team in clan matches in a few seconds. But you were equally at risk from doing so, but it pays off.
Also to those saying shooting spikes is boring... the marines seem to have no problem with shooting weapons.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
After skulk starts farting gas and flying I think I can agree.
Chances are you are playing incorrectly if you cant tell the difference.
Many competitive players don't bother posting on these forums, and there's a reason for it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It already is a boring lifeform. Hence why I want it changed.
I want the opportunity to use my brain for once rather than relying entirely on reflex skills. The alien classes in general sort of entirely lack that. The entire game does really, although gorges are certainly a thinking class and marines generally benefit from good positioning, the whole game could use some adjustment to add something to it other than being a completely twitch shooter.
A ranged class with the ability to reach any location is an ideal platform for conversion into an positioning and ambush based class.
I want the opportunity to use my brain for once rather than relying entirely on reflex skills. The alien classes in general sort of entirely lack that. The entire game does really, although gorges are certainly a thinking class and marines generally benefit from good positioning, the whole game could use some adjustment to add something to it other than being a completely twitch shooter.
A ranged class with the ability to reach any location is an ideal platform for conversion into an positioning and ambush based class.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did you even play ns? You probably also think Quake is decided by the best aim as well..
I want the opportunity to use my brain for once rather than relying entirely on reflex skills. The alien classes in general sort of entirely lack that. The entire game does really, although gorges are certainly a thinking class and marines generally benefit from good positioning, the whole game could use some adjustment to add something to it other than being a completely twitch shooter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry if you cant play the currect lerk but its all about the usage of "brain" atm. Anyone with game sense can play lerk well, if you want to be aggressive (very) thats a different story. Stating that alienplay is not about thinking and coordination is plain nonsense you get very far with those things ALONE.
The thing you really want is foolproof mechanic where you get few sure-shot kills from distance with almost zero risk.
Well, yeah, it kind of is, because if you can't aim you can't do anything in quake given that the railgun is easily the most powerful weapon and it's also the sniper rifle. Even guns that you would think are spammy guns like the rocket launcher benefit from excellent prediciton skills, and movement ability is integral to performance with any weapon. Quake is a twitch shooter, and nothing else, which is why I haven't played it in years.
While it is entirely possible if everyone is really good at reflex then the game could have some sort of strategic component, as that would be the only way to gain an edge, the fact that not everyone IS good at reflex means that strategy is a lot rarer, and also impossible unless you happen to be really good at aiming.
No amount of intelligent thought will get you far in NS unless you are also a very good marksman, I don't have any interest in developing shooting skills and would much rather have some classes which don't require it.
For all that I hate team fortress two in general, the ability to team up with a friend as heavy and medic and do some serious damage just by working together well and attacking the most vital areas with your ubercharge and staying alive between deployments is something I don't see in any other game, and it is easily one of TF2s best features. I can quite happily jump into the game and perform well as either class in a pair, because neither requires twitch skills, but both require you to think about who and what you attack. I am very good at thinking, but have no natural talent or interest in developing reflex skills. A game based on them is not entertaining to me.
<!--quoteo(post=1795738:date=Aug 22 2010, 02:59 PM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Aug 22 2010, 02:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795738"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The thing you really want is foolproof mechanic where you get few sure-shot kills from distance with almost zero risk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes I'd simply love that because it wouldn't be at all annoying to play a game where you have to fight against that...
Harimau that's a very good point. We aren't professional and we don't get paid to play NS1 competitively. It's just that we find that style much more enjoyable than public play. Why should we be penalised for wanting to play the game a certain way? I'll talk about this a little later.
Runteh, you talk about enjoying team balance and forcing people to work as a team, yet you cite 1v1 lerk situations as reasons why the NS1 lerk is imbalanced? This seems a little silly to me. Also, since the lerk can fly, why should he have to stop and wait around on the ground, shooting spikes? The whole point of being able to fly is to use it surely!
What you must understand is that us bite lerkers are support players too. If there is a shotgun out I will very seldom show my face and late game we become spore/umbra spammers. Umbra and spore are instant shot weapons, spike would require you to be stationary within line of sight of a marine, this is a big difference. You may get a different impression from public play, since often we act suicidally because the outcome isn't as important as it usually is to us. For example in competitive play if I die early, I let my team down in a big way.
yourbonesakin, thank you for not being offended, I know my argumentative style can offend people quite easily so it's good that you've looked past it. Also I kind of skipped a couple of pages since I was in a hurry yesterday :D so I didn't see the range clarification. I would be careful about the marine shotgun though; since random spread it's only at very close range that you can ensure a 1 shot.
What must be stressed is your point that flying whilst shooting a high rate of fire weapon is not possible. Unless you can alternate between dodging and shooting at a high frequency, this is basically impossible. This means that my style of gameplay would be completely done away with. I find it slightly offensive that a lot of you seem to be happy to do this simply because you don't enjoy it. It is possible at the moment to vent camp and sporespam whilst supporting with umbra or whathaveyou. However, with spikes, my way of gaming would be barely viable. I'm also sure that there are a lot of pub players who enjoy bitelerk.
What is needed most is a happy medium between our two styles of play; ventcamping support and aggressive support. I'm open to this bombing suggestion, but I suspect the spike lobby wouldn't be because it requires getting close.
I think the shotgun spike with a damage drop off over range (pellets perhaps, or just energy loss over range like with bullets in APB and other games) is the perfect compromise. Ventcampers can use the shotgun in the same way they would use spikes but they are not imbalanced since they cannot camp vents from a long way away. Also you could make the lerk shotgun spike very, very loud to make it clear to noobs where it's coming from. To nullify the effect of silence in this case you'd have to make it fairly adrenaline expensive. Closer range players like me could still get their kicks and although it'd more deadly in 1v1 situations if the damage is as high as you suggest, the size of the NS2 lerk should balance this.