<!--quoteo(post=1799738:date=Sep 24 2010, 11:34 PM:name=meb2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (meb2 @ Sep 24 2010, 11:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1799738"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->this isn't about technical differences this is about two indie games trying to get off the ground and one of them did it and did it with remarkable success despite being an alpha and being completely done by one player and not a team
the business models are different and UWE's sucks in comparison to minecraft's. that's what I'm getting at here<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't seem to understand. Minecraft is a SIMPLE game, thus the appeal is considerably greater. There is no over arching marketing strategy employed by Notch to promote the game it's simply been word of mouth. The game itself (in my opinion) isn't even that great, it doesn't appeal to what I find interesting in a game. Simple pick up and play games generally sell better than something like NS2, however simply writing off the game as a failure simply because it hasn't achieved the sales figures strikes me as short sighted. I guarantee you that once the updates start rolling and the game becomes more stable and playable you'll see interest go through the roof.
<!--quoteo(post=1799750:date=Sep 24 2010, 07:06 PM:name=meb2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (meb2 @ Sep 24 2010, 07:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1799750"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->so your argument is that minecraft is a simplistic game that appeals to a broader audience of pc gamers and that's why it is a sales success in comparison with NS2? aren't you ignoring the fact that NS2 in its alpha state is:
<b>not playable</b>
and when the netcode is properly implemented in the fledgling Spark engine it will be
<b>inaccessible to the anyone who wants to try it</b>
and when the game is nearing completion, possibly fun, and nearing its beta state it will cost
<b>$35 dollars for new players to try</b>
you don't think the above points have something to do with NS2's success vs Minecraft's success? wake up
UWE still has a chance to build up a nice user-base with this game with a playable alpha state if it is indeed everything they have said it will be. word of mouth in high traffic places like Reddit and 4Chan could make it so with a $10 alpha buy-in
like I said earlier: if it's fun, the internet will come<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Excuse me? Just because I didn't include those in my bullet-points doesn't mean I don't think they are valid. Well done on the assumption there, friend.
I'm pointing out the hopefully obvious points as to why Minecraft has sold so much more and updated so much more than NS2. Both things which you seemed to have misunderstood in your first post.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->also minecraft is in alpha and was made by ONE person, so anyone that responds with NS2 is ALPHA and UWE's team is SMALL should really shut their mouth from this day forward, because someone just proved that alphas can be playable and an internet sensation<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You obviously didn't have a clue what you were talking about.
Yes, we all know NS2 is <b>not playble</b> at this point. It's not suppose to be, it's Alpha - and don't attempt to fire back with "Well, Minecraft is alpha, too! And it's playable!" Notch's idea of Alpha is way different from UWE's. Which is fine. When a dev decides to label their game as alpha is entirely up to them - It's suppose to be <b>testable</b>, which it will be much more attuned to once we get the network issues more ironed out.
Point here is, one really can't compare NS2 and Minecraft on any level. You really don't get it.
<!--quoteo(post=1799755:date=Sep 24 2010, 07:18 PM:name=WhiteZero)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WhiteZero @ Sep 24 2010, 07:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1799755"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Point here is, one really can't compare NS2 and Minecraft on any level. You really don't get it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> apparently for you this has turned into a 'let's see who's right' pissing match about stupid details and now you're missing the overarching point that:
the indie game minecraft has a running alpha that is playable with a $10 buy-in that is making $250,000 dollars a DAY because of the way he has a good product and he has positioned it well for building a remarkable player base and for generating huge amounts of interest
in contrast to the indie game NS2 which has a closed alpha, which is a game in an unplayable state (so it should really be called pre-alpha, because no one cares to actually test it), which is slated to be a good product (if the developers can deliver on their promises) that has <b>lost</b> the interest of its playerbase from July and is not currently generating huge amounts of interest
my point, and I can't believe I'm reiterating this again, is that by following Minecraft's lead, maybe UWE should shift the positioning of their product to match Minecratf'ts business model of a rolling Alpha once NS2 has reached a playable, fun state. If not that, maybe they should rush out their beta to generate interest, even though I feel $35 is too much for an indie game most people have never heard of.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Indeed, alpha it might be called. But it is also a much smaller game to create (code/netcode/textures&models). And it has been WIP for something like 1.5 years now as well?
<!--quoteo(post=1799761:date=Sep 24 2010, 09:08 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Sep 24 2010, 09:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1799761"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And it has been WIP for something like 1.5 years now as well?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
could say that it's been longer with ns2... but it's hard to draw a line as to when it "began to be WIP"... so let's just end this pissing contest and say we all suck and it sucks that we have to wait.. but.. nothing we can do... so... yea, that sucks. move on
This thread is about to be killed. Yes - it is true. A patch will come eventually and while we are all in anticipation, the rest of the internet is still moving on through its busy schedule. We should do the same - plenty of games to play, plenty of people to troll (elsewhere), and arguing between which two games in Alpha are better is a pointless exercise in pointlessness (yeah, I said it!)
Do yourself, and everyone else, a big shining favor and accept that the patch may not be out tonight, that the game is unplayable and the fact that NS2 now costs 35$. A patch will come, NS2 will be playable and 35 dollars is still cheaper than <b>almost every single mainstream title that is newly released.</b> Lots of games are released that only a small base of players has heard of and it STILL costs 60$ and it is STILL purchased. We need to get over it... before this community self-implodes.
That is cool. I totally agree that the pre-order price is a bit expensive. I was mainly addressing your post that compared Minecraft's development to NS2; that is was made by "ONE person" and that people should "shut their mouth from this day forward" because Notch could churn out a playable Alpha so much quicker than UWE. That was a total unfair comparison.
<!--quoteo(post=1799709:date=Sep 25 2010, 02:22 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Sep 25 2010, 02:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1799709"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Last I talked to Max<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> lol. You do work in the same office, don't you?
I'll tell you what the difference is, advertisement. The amount of exposure I have seen for Minecraft in the past months is more then I have seen for NS in 8 years. Honestly If I didn't happen to stumble upon the mod through the multiple HL mod sites, I would not know of it's existence now. All the gaming websites I goto I have yet to see anything NS related on, while Minecraft will be exposed onto nearly every major gaming site and magazine, which makes a massive, and I emphasis massive difference.
<!--quoteo(post=1799784:date=Sep 25 2010, 05:42 AM:name=TheGivingTree)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheGivingTree @ Sep 25 2010, 05:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1799784"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'll tell you what the difference is, advertisement. The amount of exposure I have seen for Minecraft in the past months is more then I have seen for NS in 8 years. Honestly If I didn't happen to stumble upon the mod through the multiple HL mod sites, I would not know of it's existence now. All the gaming websites I goto I have yet to see anything NS related on, while Minecraft will be exposed onto nearly every major gaming site and magazine, which makes a massive, and I emphasis massive difference.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> A lot of that is out of our control. We always contact all of the major gaming sites whenever we have press releases, we've provided them with a lot of information and offered exclusives, but many of them never respond and don't write us up. It's very challenging to get exposure, and requires a lot of time, in some cases money, and having someone dedicated to cultivating various relationships with the press as a fulltime job (all the game publishers have their own PR departments who have all the contacts with all the press and they take them out to lunch, etc.).
I can't speak for an indie game like Minecraft. In some cases if a concept really stands out for some reason to the gaming media they'll really latch onto it and talk about it all the time.
The lack of PR is something we do discuss and think about quite a bit, and have been trying to figure out a solution, though it really requires having someone hired to focus on it, since we all have a game to work on, which takes up the majority of our time.
I would think perhaps NS2 might take off once it's launched, assuming the launch goes well. It's an FPS which means it's likely to suffer from being one of a huge crowd, but the moddability might be something that stands out.
NS is a high-effort low-return kinda thing, as are all FPS games without a massive brand behind them, even if it's a good FPS it's still in a genre with a lot of good titles, and the RTS element isn't really a selling point I think, given that RTS games are already existant and the concept has been done before.
I think minecraft wins on concept, there aren't any other games like it that I can think of, whereas NS even with its excellent production values in its art and (eventually) its controls and general gameplay, is still something that has been done before to a big degree.
Moddability might be the rarest part of NS, if it were my totally uneducated choice, I'd try to emphasise that more and sort of sell the game on it, maybe develop some other games using the engine's capacity for modification other than a fairly straight FPS game. Something like a coop game in the vein of left4dead, or a fully RTS game utilising the FPS levels of detail and really intelligent units to make a small scale strategy game.
I guess the problem with advertising NS is that UWE maybe doesn't have the charm of 'oh look it's all one guy doing this isn't that precious' and the game doesn't have the uniqueness of something like minecraft or other, less enjoyable games which nonetheless have some gimmick they get sold on. I guess nobody is interested in reporting on 'games company releases good quality FPS game with the graphics and polish expected from good modern games'
Unless you can cough up a few million dollars to spend on a giant-ass marketing campagin along the lines of call of duty I don't know if you'll be able to do anything about it.
Edit: Wait, no, minecraft isn't original, mincraft is a very unoriginal idea, it's video game lego.
Which may explain a large factor of its success, lego has been around for decades, and yet it still churns over a huge profit, mincraft is the exact same thing except it costs a fraction of the price and it has an entire lego world.
The same thing may contribute to the success of games like dawn of war, dawn of war is a good RTS, but it's also the ridiculously awesome universe of warhammer except way more immersive and cheaper than the tabletop game could ever be, same goes for DnD games like neverwinter nights, or roleplaying games in general given that most of them borrow heavily from DnD or GURPS or whatnot.
It's taking a good concept and using computers to make it better in some way.
Also minecraft isn't simple, it's amazingly complex, it just has a very simple input, all the complexity is emergent from the very simple input concept, which is THE ideal goal from a game design standpoint. Minecraft can be anything you want it to, but all it has to be is a simple brick builder game.
Most people will never get into NS2 because of how complex it is. New/casual players will get annihilated by skilled and experienced players, and due to the extremely team-oriented gameplay, people will not take kindly to some idiot casual who has no clue how to play ruining the game. Minecraft is akin to farmville, it's a completely different customer base essentially. Farmville is extremely popular, that doesn't mean that it's some sort of holy grail of video games, or even that it's well made. It simply appeals to the masses, which doesn't mean anything in regards to quality.
<!--quoteo(post=1799773:date=Sep 25 2010, 02:16 AM:name=Dalin Seivewright)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dalin Seivewright @ Sep 25 2010, 02:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1799773"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lots of games are released that only a small base of players has heard of and it STILL costs 60$ and it is STILL purchased.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Just out of interest, could you name a few?
<!--quoteo(post=1799896:date=Sep 26 2010, 02:11 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Sep 26 2010, 02:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1799896"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A lot of that is out of our control. We always contact all of the major gaming sites whenever we have press releases, we've provided them with a lot of information and offered exclusives, but many of them never respond and don't write us up. It's very challenging to get exposure, and requires a lot of time, in some cases money, and having someone dedicated to cultivating various relationships with the press as a fulltime job (all the game publishers have their own PR departments who have all the contacts with all the press and they take them out to lunch, etc.).
I can't speak for an indie game like Minecraft. In some cases if a concept really stands out for some reason to the gaming media they'll really latch onto it and talk about it all the time.
The lack of PR is something we do discuss and think about quite a bit, and have been trying to figure out a solution, though it really requires having someone hired to focus on it, since we all have a game to work on, which takes up the majority of our time.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is BS because NS deserves the exposure and recognition, so I see no reason why they would refuse to respond. It is without a doubt one of if the not first game to combine RTS and FPS, which to me stands out more then a game like Minecraft. I really believe more people knowing about it would really help with it's sales because I mean how can people buy something they don't know about, and like I said if I didn't stumble upon the NS mod so many years ago I wouldn't know about NS2 now.. and thankfully I did.
Sort of stinks that it take that much time and effort to get exposure for a game, you'd think companies would be swarming in to cover this game but who knows maybe later when more of the game is developed and they can see the new concepts in action.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Well there is one small fact at work here I guess... Minecraft is a something like a casual gamer's dream, NS is still a somewhat of a niche game, with NS2 trying to be more mainstream (easier to learn). Casual gamers still outnumber the niche of FPS+RTS in this case by a very large amount...
Also minecraft would work for anyone, you could buy it for your 6 year old and they'd probably be able to enjoy it, NS is still kinda appealing to the 18-25 year old living in a basement demographic.
Games generally get expose when something important happens. A random class reveal isn't something important. When a playable beta (not 'alpha') or when the game is released is when I'd expect a surge in publicity from gaming sites. IGN.com already featured NS2 a handful of times but until there's actual news then gaming websites have better things to post.
<!--quoteo(post=1799896:date=Sep 26 2010, 02:11 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Sep 26 2010, 02:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1799896"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The lack of PR is something we do discuss and think about quite a bit, and have been trying to figure out a solution, though it really requires having someone hired to focus on it, since we all have a game to work on, which takes up the majority of our time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> yo I'll do this for free
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1799916:date=Sep 27 2010, 12:01 AM:name=schkorpio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (schkorpio @ Sep 27 2010, 12:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1799916"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->well once NS is in a more playable state - probably beta stage then you will seen a huge increase in interest from everywhere.
btw Minecraft looks stupid - why would anyone buy that game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Looks can be deceiving <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/youreallwrong.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Comparing Minecraft to NS2 is completely absurd, they're totally different games. Minecraft became the success it is because it's something completely new, it basically invented a genre. No indie game in an existing genre, even a relatively uncommon one like FPS/RTS, would ever have gotten such heavy advertising for free like Minecraft did. It's a game that lends itself to its particular development and business model very well for all sorts of reasons that don't apply to NS2.
Honestly UWE's development style so far is about as close as it gets to Minecraft's for a game like this. They're showing people what they're developing on a task-by-task basis ffs, that's basically unheard of. It just so happens that the technical issues that popped up in early alpha, as a result of how much more technically complex NS2 is, made the game unplayable and so there was no point in continuing to release patches until that gets fixed. It's not difficult to understand at a brief glance why Notch had an easier time getting his game into a playable state for most people despite being only a lone developer.
<!--quoteo(post=1799921:date=Sep 26 2010, 07:27 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Sep 26 2010, 07:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1799921"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Minecraft became the success it is because it's something completely new, it basically invented a genre.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, there are about 3 games that came before Minecraft that Notch has copied the style from. But none of which are as popular/successful as Minecraft.
<!--quoteo(post=1799926:date=Sep 26 2010, 08:41 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Sep 26 2010, 08:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1799926"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well Dwarf Fortress for example isn't that accessible though, minecraft is more a startNplay kinda game...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've found that most people are very confused as to how they craft anything. Without the Wiki, most people would be totally lost. But I think Notch has mentioned he wants to put in a tutorial.
<!--quoteo(post=1799925:date=Sep 26 2010, 09:38 PM:name=WhiteZero)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WhiteZero @ Sep 26 2010, 09:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1799925"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually, there are about 3 games that came before Minecraft that Notch has copied the style from. But none of which are as popular/successful as Minecraft.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The cube world idea was inspired by Infiniminer, but what made Minecraft popular was Survival mode which I don't think anybody else came close to. It's sort of like a builder/adventure/RPG.
<!--quoteo(post=1799921:date=Sep 26 2010, 07:27 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Sep 26 2010, 07:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1799921"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Comparing Minecraft to NS2 is completely absurd, they're totally different games. Minecraft became the success it is because it's something completely new, it basically invented a genre. No indie game in an existing genre, even a relatively uncommon one like FPS/RTS, would ever have gotten such heavy advertising for free like Minecraft did. It's a game that lends itself to its particular development and business model very well for all sorts of reasons that don't apply to NS2.
Honestly UWE's development style so far is about as close as it gets to Minecraft's for a game like this. They're showing people what they're developing on a task-by-task basis ffs, that's basically unheard of. It just so happens that the technical issues that popped up in early alpha, as a result of how much more technically complex NS2 is, made the game unplayable and so there was no point in continuing to release patches until that gets fixed. It's not difficult to understand at a brief glance why Notch had an easier time getting his game into a playable state for most people despite being only a lone developer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> it invented a genre? I haven't played it, but from what I've read it's just a pixelated version of Garry's mod with large-scale pre-generated worlds w/ wolves that are after you
I think Minecraft got the media spotlight because the game is fun, addictive, and play it with your friends. If it is fun, the internet will come (AND they will advertise for you). I don't agree with you at all. NS2 can share similar success if it is fun and can appeal to a broader group than NS did
look as much as I love UWE, it was kind of naive to expose your fresh off the fingers engine netcode (untested outside of LAN play) to a mass of hungry fanboys and expect everything to be peachy. they made the mistake of releasing an alpha that is unplayable (unlike Notch) and people are getting restless. I think an alpha buy in once the game is fun would be a pretty nice way to go to remedy some mistakes made
<!--quoteo(post=1799939:date=Sep 26 2010, 11:52 PM:name=meb2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (meb2 @ Sep 26 2010, 11:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1799939"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it invented a genre? I haven't played it, but from what I've read it's just a pixelated version of Garry's mod with large-scale pre-generated worlds w/ wolves that are after you
I think Minecraft got the media spotlight because the game is fun, addictive, and play it with your friends. If it is fun, the internet will come (AND they will advertise for you). I don't agree with you at all. NS2 can share similar success if it is fun and can appeal to a broader group than NS did<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Dude, it's a one-man indie project in its Alpha that's sold 250k copies through word of mouth alone, via Paypal no less. You can't tell me it's just like any other game. Garry's Mod is just a sandbox for making goofy stuff, it's not comparable - try it before you knock it.
look I appreciate that it is the right formula of fun to be a runaway hit, but the point of my proposal is to highlight that minecraft is a hit also thanks to its business model and how Notch has released his alpha:
1) cheap buy in 2) alpha works great w/ all signs pointing to greater things to come 3) advertised on popular forums to generate seeds of interest
Comments
the business models are different and UWE's sucks in comparison to minecraft's. that's what I'm getting at here<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't seem to understand. Minecraft is a SIMPLE game, thus the appeal is considerably greater. There is no over arching marketing strategy employed by Notch to promote the game it's simply been word of mouth. The game itself (in my opinion) isn't even that great, it doesn't appeal to what I find interesting in a game. Simple pick up and play games generally sell better than something like NS2, however simply writing off the game as a failure simply because it hasn't achieved the sales figures strikes me as short sighted. I guarantee you that once the updates start rolling and the game becomes more stable and playable you'll see interest go through the roof.
<b>not playable</b>
and when the netcode is properly implemented in the fledgling Spark engine it will be
<b>inaccessible to the anyone who wants to try it</b>
and when the game is nearing completion, possibly fun, and nearing its beta state it will cost
<b>$35 dollars for new players to try</b>
you don't think the above points have something to do with NS2's success vs Minecraft's success? wake up
UWE still has a chance to build up a nice user-base with this game with a playable alpha state if it is indeed everything they have said it will be. word of mouth in high traffic places like Reddit and 4Chan could make it so with a $10 alpha buy-in
like I said earlier: if it's fun, the internet will come<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Excuse me? Just because I didn't include those in my bullet-points doesn't mean I don't think they are valid. Well done on the assumption there, friend.
I'm pointing out the hopefully obvious points as to why Minecraft has sold so much more and updated so much more than NS2. Both things which you seemed to have misunderstood in your first post.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->also minecraft is in alpha and was made by ONE person, so anyone that responds with NS2 is ALPHA and UWE's team is SMALL should really shut their mouth from this day forward, because someone just proved that alphas can be playable and an internet sensation<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You obviously didn't have a clue what you were talking about.
Yes, we all know NS2 is <b>not playble</b> at this point. It's not suppose to be, it's Alpha - and don't attempt to fire back with "Well, Minecraft is alpha, too! And it's playable!" Notch's idea of Alpha is way different from UWE's. Which is fine. When a dev decides to label their game as alpha is entirely up to them -
It's suppose to be <b>testable</b>, which it will be much more attuned to once we get the network issues more ironed out.
Point here is, one really can't compare NS2 and Minecraft on any level. You really don't get it.
apparently for you this has turned into a 'let's see who's right' pissing match about stupid details and now you're missing the overarching point that:
the indie game minecraft has a running alpha that is playable with a $10 buy-in that is making $250,000 dollars a DAY because of the way he has a good product and he has positioned it well for building a remarkable player base and for generating huge amounts of interest
in contrast to the indie game NS2 which has a closed alpha, which is a game in an unplayable state (so it should really be called pre-alpha, because no one cares to actually test it), which is slated to be a good product (if the developers can deliver on their promises) that has <b>lost</b> the interest of its playerbase from July and is not currently generating huge amounts of interest
my point, and I can't believe I'm reiterating this again, is that by following Minecraft's lead, maybe UWE should shift the positioning of their product to match Minecratf'ts business model of a rolling Alpha once NS2 has reached a playable, fun state. If not that, maybe they should rush out their beta to generate interest, even though I feel $35 is too much for an indie game most people have never heard of.
do you understand now?
could say that it's been longer with ns2... but it's hard to draw a line as to when it "began to be WIP"... so let's just end this pissing contest and say we all suck and it sucks that we have to wait.. but.. nothing we can do... so... yea, that sucks. move on
This thread is about to be killed. Yes - it is true. A patch will come eventually and while we are all in anticipation, the rest of the internet is still moving on through its busy schedule. We should do the same - plenty of games to play, plenty of people to troll (elsewhere), and arguing between which two games in Alpha are better is a pointless exercise in pointlessness (yeah, I said it!)
Do yourself, and everyone else, a big shining favor and accept that the patch may not be out tonight, that the game is unplayable and the fact that NS2 now costs 35$. A patch will come, NS2 will be playable and 35 dollars is still cheaper than <b>almost every single mainstream title that is newly released.</b> Lots of games are released that only a small base of players has heard of and it STILL costs 60$ and it is STILL purchased. We need to get over it... before this community self-implodes.
Do you want that?
Thank you for your attention,
A Concerned Citizen
That is cool. I totally agree that the pre-order price is a bit expensive.
I was mainly addressing your post that compared Minecraft's development to NS2; that is was made by "ONE person" and that people should "shut their mouth from this day forward" because Notch could churn out a playable Alpha so much quicker than UWE. That was a total unfair comparison.
lol. You do work in the same office, don't you?
A lot of that is out of our control. We always contact all of the major gaming sites whenever we have press releases, we've provided them with a lot of information and offered exclusives, but many of them never respond and don't write us up. It's very challenging to get exposure, and requires a lot of time, in some cases money, and having someone dedicated to cultivating various relationships with the press as a fulltime job (all the game publishers have their own PR departments who have all the contacts with all the press and they take them out to lunch, etc.).
I can't speak for an indie game like Minecraft. In some cases if a concept really stands out for some reason to the gaming media they'll really latch onto it and talk about it all the time.
The lack of PR is something we do discuss and think about quite a bit, and have been trying to figure out a solution, though it really requires having someone hired to focus on it, since we all have a game to work on, which takes up the majority of our time.
--Cory
NS is a high-effort low-return kinda thing, as are all FPS games without a massive brand behind them, even if it's a good FPS it's still in a genre with a lot of good titles, and the RTS element isn't really a selling point I think, given that RTS games are already existant and the concept has been done before.
I think minecraft wins on concept, there aren't any other games like it that I can think of, whereas NS even with its excellent production values in its art and (eventually) its controls and general gameplay, is still something that has been done before to a big degree.
Moddability might be the rarest part of NS, if it were my totally uneducated choice, I'd try to emphasise that more and sort of sell the game on it, maybe develop some other games using the engine's capacity for modification other than a fairly straight FPS game. Something like a coop game in the vein of left4dead, or a fully RTS game utilising the FPS levels of detail and really intelligent units to make a small scale strategy game.
I guess the problem with advertising NS is that UWE maybe doesn't have the charm of 'oh look it's all one guy doing this isn't that precious' and the game doesn't have the uniqueness of something like minecraft or other, less enjoyable games which nonetheless have some gimmick they get sold on. I guess nobody is interested in reporting on 'games company releases good quality FPS game with the graphics and polish expected from good modern games'
Unless you can cough up a few million dollars to spend on a giant-ass marketing campagin along the lines of call of duty I don't know if you'll be able to do anything about it.
Edit: Wait, no, minecraft isn't original, mincraft is a very unoriginal idea, it's video game lego.
Which may explain a large factor of its success, lego has been around for decades, and yet it still churns over a huge profit, mincraft is the exact same thing except it costs a fraction of the price and it has an entire lego world.
The same thing may contribute to the success of games like dawn of war, dawn of war is a good RTS, but it's also the ridiculously awesome universe of warhammer except way more immersive and cheaper than the tabletop game could ever be, same goes for DnD games like neverwinter nights, or roleplaying games in general given that most of them borrow heavily from DnD or GURPS or whatnot.
It's taking a good concept and using computers to make it better in some way.
Also minecraft isn't simple, it's amazingly complex, it just has a very simple input, all the complexity is emergent from the very simple input concept, which is THE ideal goal from a game design standpoint. Minecraft can be anything you want it to, but all it has to be is a simple brick builder game.
Just out of interest, could you name a few?
I can't speak for an indie game like Minecraft. In some cases if a concept really stands out for some reason to the gaming media they'll really latch onto it and talk about it all the time.
The lack of PR is something we do discuss and think about quite a bit, and have been trying to figure out a solution, though it really requires having someone hired to focus on it, since we all have a game to work on, which takes up the majority of our time.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is BS because NS deserves the exposure and recognition, so I see no reason why they would refuse to respond. It is without a doubt one of if the not first game to combine RTS and FPS, which to me stands out more then a game like Minecraft. I really believe more people knowing about it would really help with it's sales because I mean how can people buy something they don't know about, and like I said if I didn't stumble upon the NS mod so many years ago I wouldn't know about NS2 now.. and thankfully I did.
Sort of stinks that it take that much time and effort to get exposure for a game, you'd think companies would be swarming in to cover this game but who knows maybe later when more of the game is developed and they can see the new concepts in action.
yo I'll do this for free
btw Minecraft looks stupid - why would anyone buy that game?
btw Minecraft looks stupid - why would anyone buy that game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Looks can be deceiving <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/youreallwrong.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Honestly UWE's development style so far is about as close as it gets to Minecraft's for a game like this. They're showing people what they're developing on a task-by-task basis ffs, that's basically unheard of. It just so happens that the technical issues that popped up in early alpha, as a result of how much more technically complex NS2 is, made the game unplayable and so there was no point in continuing to release patches until that gets fixed. It's not difficult to understand at a brief glance why Notch had an easier time getting his game into a playable state for most people despite being only a lone developer.
Actually, there are about 3 games that came before Minecraft that Notch has copied the style from. But none of which are as popular/successful as Minecraft.
I've found that most people are very confused as to how they craft anything. Without the Wiki, most people would be totally lost.
But I think Notch has mentioned he wants to put in a tutorial.
The cube world idea was inspired by Infiniminer, but what made Minecraft popular was Survival mode which I don't think anybody else came close to. It's sort of like a builder/adventure/RPG.
Honestly UWE's development style so far is about as close as it gets to Minecraft's for a game like this. They're showing people what they're developing on a task-by-task basis ffs, that's basically unheard of. It just so happens that the technical issues that popped up in early alpha, as a result of how much more technically complex NS2 is, made the game unplayable and so there was no point in continuing to release patches until that gets fixed. It's not difficult to understand at a brief glance why Notch had an easier time getting his game into a playable state for most people despite being only a lone developer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it invented a genre? I haven't played it, but from what I've read it's just a pixelated version of Garry's mod with large-scale pre-generated worlds w/ wolves that are after you
I think Minecraft got the media spotlight because the game is fun, addictive, and play it with your friends. If it is fun, the internet will come (AND they will advertise for you). I don't agree with you at all. NS2 can share similar success if it is fun and can appeal to a broader group than NS did
look as much as I love UWE, it was kind of naive to expose your fresh off the fingers engine netcode (untested outside of LAN play) to a mass of hungry fanboys and expect everything to be peachy. they made the mistake of releasing an alpha that is unplayable (unlike Notch) and people are getting restless. I think an alpha buy in once the game is fun would be a pretty nice way to go to remedy some mistakes made
patch this week mr cleveland?
I think Minecraft got the media spotlight because the game is fun, addictive, and play it with your friends. If it is fun, the internet will come (AND they will advertise for you). I don't agree with you at all. NS2 can share similar success if it is fun and can appeal to a broader group than NS did<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dude, it's a one-man indie project in its Alpha that's sold 250k copies through word of mouth alone, via Paypal no less. You can't tell me it's just like any other game. Garry's Mod is just a sandbox for making goofy stuff, it's not comparable - try it before you knock it.
1) cheap buy in
2) alpha works great w/ all signs pointing to greater things to come
3) advertised on popular forums to generate seeds of interest
Once NS2 alpha is playable, ###### gonna be sick.