Ideally the Beta will have some shiny additions plus another good step in performance. I feel like the performance is finally starting to the reach playable points, but expected perhaps a patch or two between everyone going "netcode fixed!" before going into the Beta. Maybe though that's just me being cautious and paranoid.
So, I trust UWE. Just from where I stand I'm a little scared.
Well Flayra, I really hope you guys did test that beta build a lot internally...
The beta is a huge step, game magazines will start judging you on its quality, most gamers who only bought the standard edition will criticize you even more than those special edition folks who know ns2 will be great in the end - if you give it enough time.
I can only assume that money is the reason to release the beta this early. Too bad, I thought the buffer was bigger...
Imo as of build 154 the game is almost ready - for an alpha.
My first reaction to this news was similar to you all. "Closed beta? No way in hell is this game ready for that!" Then I thought back to all the feature additions we've seen since the beginning of alpha. I thought back to some of the things UWE mentioned when they explained their decision to move from the Source engine to the Spark engine. They actually have most of the assets and content needed to <i>play</i> the game finished. What alpha was needed for was to slowly add each piece of the puzzle and test it in a networked environment. Then I realized that every time I try to play a game nowadays, there are too few servers and barely anyone trying to populate them. The alpha player population has died off and is receiving no new influx.
So this move actually makes sense. It's a time to actually place the last 25% of the pieces. The models, textures, sounds, and scripts are all done, they just need implementation. There are still a ton of bugs that need fixing, but you don't need to hold in alpha stasis just to fix them. We need more people playing and UWE probably needs more money. Closed beta will still technically feel like an alpha, what with the Onos still not making an appearance, half the alien and human structures unbuildable, and other basic features still missing (advanced graphical settings, full keybinding for character and commander modes) but in the end, "alpha" and "beta" are just words; it's up to the developer to define where the real line is.
One last point: If UWE has fixed the connection issues and the spam/lag that occurs when too many players are connected or too many hydras/sentries are built, then I believe this game is actually at the proper "playable" level to be beta-ready. Everything beyond this is tweaking and code implementations. If anyone was playing the Star Trek Online beta, you'd recognize the kind of vast change a developer is able to make when they stick themselves in a monolithic development cycle (which UWE has) so I'd say sit back, don't worry, and enjoy the Fade tomorrow. :)
I hope you guys have been making a lot of progress with those bots for larger-scale server tests, because if the performance isn't MUCH better, I'd say this is going to be gory.
I can only say I hope this has been tested on a server with normal hardware and with at least 12 or more players connecting over the internet from different states/countries and not simply on a LAN with a handful of guys. I'm rooting for you guys to do well, but every Alpha release so far has seemed to reveal a bug that wasn't noticed until the game was played under normal circumstances. I don't understand why you wouldn't ship the beta build as the next alpha build first and let the massive testing base you have verify that it is actually good to go. If you call it beta, people are going to expect it to be up to the standard of usual release betas these days. The most current Alpha build is nowhere near where TF2 was in its beta, or any of the WoW betas. And some games that have released bad betas have never made it over the bad press they generated.
it does strike me as a bit odd that they didn't release 155 as an alpha patch first, then if everything is within tolerance levels, release it to the beta pre-orders. Considering the amount of unforeseen things that have popped up in each previous patch, but in any case I'm hoping for the best.
<!--quoteo(post=1806498:date=Nov 18 2010, 09:03 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Nov 18 2010, 09:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1806498"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We've fixed tons and tons of stuff for the beta. Give it a shot before you say it's not ready!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Will do - I'll be happy if my worries are unfounded. However, we can only give opinions on what we've seen. :)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->did u forget that NS1 was a mod not a stand alone game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. I am just pointing out that the development process will be similar, and that support post-release (of any stage, alpha, beta, etc), will be long and committed. My faith is not shattered, and the progress chart shows that a number of the big bugs have been squashed. Fine tuning is the name of the game from here, but there are still additions - it just feels like a more solid and exponential effort from now.
<!--quoteo(post=1806498:date=Nov 18 2010, 09:03 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Nov 18 2010, 09:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1806498"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We've fixed tons and tons of stuff for the beta. Give it a shot before you say it's not ready!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
why not release it as the next alpha patch and if things go well then take it to beta? this way you'll be taking the less risky road.
<!--quoteo(post=1806529:date=Nov 18 2010, 08:17 PM:name=[R8]DJBourgeoisie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ([R8]DJBourgeoisie @ Nov 18 2010, 08:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1806529"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> In my humble opinion, you guys (Unknown Worlds) need to stop treating ns2 like its a mod.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->This is not how they treated their mod. They're treating NS2 more like a transparent indie game.
Yes Flayra ! No one here ( i hope most ) are not against beta or not, they just want to save you the trouble of getting more Rage for issues from newcomer beta testers. Us alpha testers know for long about the performance issues and we already know what to expect with each patch so the community is more settled, but if the new beta testers will rage again... they might make bade reputation. But i hope it's true that te performance issues been fixed more or less completely.
Hot CoffeeJoin Date: 2010-11-03Member: 74744Members, Constellation
Patches have been released more and more frequently with more noticeable improvements, which is what most people have asked for since that drought between initial alpha and the first patch. Obviously it depends on your hardware, but if you were getting 20 FPS before the last patch and now you're getting 30, that is a major improvement (50% increase). There isn't a magic fix that will suddenly give you 100+ FPS like you're playing NS1; however, my hardware is 2-2.5 years old and my frame rates are completely fine at 1920x1200. I was quite surprised at being able to walk around and have some one on one action without lagging to hell and having keys get stuck. If they can deliver on the server performance issue and make it possible to play an actual game with at least 4-5 people per team, the beta milestone will be well deserved.
<!--quoteo(post=1806525:date=Nov 18 2010, 08:09 PM:name=Hot Coffee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hot Coffee @ Nov 18 2010, 08:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1806525"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->lol @ people comparing NS2 beta status to TF2 beta, which was basically the finished game on an engine that was a few years old<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What makes you think that people won't do exactly that?
I've been with this game for years, and I'm a die hard fan that's happy to put up with anything as long as there's eventually a game to play at the end of it. But I'm not talking about me, I'm talking about the general public who is going to see NS2 Beta and go spend money and download it and get... what? That's the question.
<!--quoteo(post=1806533:date=Nov 18 2010, 08:26 PM:name=fex905)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fex905 @ Nov 18 2010, 08:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1806533"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think Beta is pretty malleable term.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sure, but in general people expect a beta to be very close to feature complete with only minor bugs. If that describes the version that comes out tomorrow I will be amazed. (I would be extremely happy, but no less amazed) Remember, it's not the people who are on the forums already that need to be convinced. It's the general gaming public and press that need to be convinced. They aren't going to give any traction to arguments that you shouldn't compare it to the TF2 beta or that beta is a malleable term. They're just going to be disappointed and tell their friends or write articles that take sales away from the game once it's released. That's what I don't want to see.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sure, but in general people expect a beta to be very close to feature complete with only minor bugs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure, but in general people expect a FINAL OPEN beta to be very close to feature complete with only minor bugs. <b>*fixed*</b>
Beta should be feature-locked. DI needs to be in before feature-lock to make sure it plays well with everything else.Just that simple.
But UWE have already made their decision and there is no stopping that. The game's development is coming along nicely and as long as they keep up the pace, I think everything will be good.
Hot CoffeeJoin Date: 2010-11-03Member: 74744Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1806542:date=Nov 19 2010, 12:01 AM:name=BobTheJanitor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BobTheJanitor @ Nov 19 2010, 12:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1806542"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What makes you think that people won't do exactly that?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
oh, I'm not saying they won't. I just think it's funny that they will.
<!--quoteo(post=1806543:date=Nov 18 2010, 09:04 PM:name=resresres)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (resresres @ Nov 18 2010, 09:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1806543"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sure, but in general people expect a FINAL OPEN beta to be very close to feature complete with only minor bugs. <b>*fixed*</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There's no point in trying to convince me, I'm part of the die-hard fan base. It's the gaming public that have to be convinced that this beta is a good thing and worth pre-ordering for. And no one here can do that, that's all in the hands of the Dev team.
Consider this: NS1 did fine and had massive 300+ ping at beta launch. Of course, I only played for a day then quit and only came back to it after it was playable, but hey, it survived.
<!--quoteo(post=1806498:date=Nov 18 2010, 09:03 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Nov 18 2010, 09:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1806498"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We've fixed tons and tons of stuff for the beta. Give it a shot before you say it's not ready!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't know if this means that there are a bunch of great fixes that were left out of the alpha for some reason, or if you guys have made huge strides in the past few days, but either way I'm skeptical of how you can know that without the exposure of alpha. The internal testing team is small and I'm guessing they haven't been having the same performance issues we do, many of which are no doubt hardware related and not just optimization. Jumping straight into beta without confirming that the latest build is beta-worthy is sort of reckless. Not trying to flame you guys, I criticize because I care!
Let UWE do what they decided to do. And make sure any newcomers don't get any Alpha-like ideas about the beta version and complain of something they don't understand as has happened with the alpha.
It would have been better for Unknownworlds to wait for a Beta. But they've said that the beta is tomorrow so we have to back them on that as a community..
<!--quoteo(post=1806328:date=Nov 18 2010, 03:34 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Nov 18 2010, 03:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1806328"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>So, I'm just concerned since I've seen many mods and commercials games die in a withering fire of bad press about how crummy stuff was. Doesn't matter it got better later, people's first impressions start to count as you move into Beta and eventually the final product.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is so important for the developers to consider. There is going to be much more press given to the beta than was given to the Alpha.
<!--quoteo(post=1806551:date=Nov 19 2010, 01:26 PM:name=Arcadian)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arcadian @ Nov 19 2010, 01:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1806551"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What's written is written, what's done is done.
Let UWE do what they decided to do. And make sure any newcomers don't get any Alpha-like ideas about the beta version and complain of something they don't understand as has happened with the alpha.
It would have been better for Unknownworlds to wait for a Beta. But they've said that the beta is tomorrow so we have to back them on that as a community..
This is so important for the developers to consider. There is going to be much more press given to the beta than was given to the Alpha.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1806444:date=Nov 18 2010, 05:30 PM:name=Ongre)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ongre @ Nov 18 2010, 05:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1806444"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I saw big industry games in beta state with a worse playable-state than NS2 ( in alpha ) before.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh really?? Which game was that?
<!--quoteo(post=1806603:date=Nov 19 2010, 06:04 AM:name=scorpydude)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (scorpydude @ Nov 19 2010, 06:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1806603"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Looks like this is just a big publicity stunt with joystiq (whatever that website is)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
they are a pretty well known gaming website with a bunch of readers, probably one of the largest gaming news sites
Comments
So, I trust UWE. Just from where I stand I'm a little scared.
The beta is a huge step, game magazines will start judging you on its quality, most gamers who only bought the standard edition will criticize you even more than those special edition folks who know ns2 will be great in the end - if you give it enough time.
I can only assume that money is the reason to release the beta this early. Too bad, I thought the buffer was bigger...
Imo as of build 154 the game is almost ready - for an alpha.
Then I thought back to all the feature additions we've seen since the beginning of alpha. I thought back to some of the things UWE mentioned when they explained their decision to move from the Source engine to the Spark engine. They actually have most of the assets and content needed to <i>play</i> the game finished. What alpha was needed for was to slowly add each piece of the puzzle and test it in a networked environment.
Then I realized that every time I try to play a game nowadays, there are too few servers and barely anyone trying to populate them. The alpha player population has died off and is receiving no new influx.
So this move actually makes sense. It's a time to actually place the last 25% of the pieces. The models, textures, sounds, and scripts are all done, they just need implementation. There are still a ton of bugs that need fixing, but you don't need to hold in alpha stasis just to fix them. We need more people playing and UWE probably needs more money. Closed beta will still technically feel like an alpha, what with the Onos still not making an appearance, half the alien and human structures unbuildable, and other basic features still missing (advanced graphical settings, full keybinding for character and commander modes) but in the end, "alpha" and "beta" are just words; it's up to the developer to define where the real line is.
One last point: If UWE has fixed the connection issues and the spam/lag that occurs when too many players are connected or too many hydras/sentries are built, then I believe this game is actually at the proper "playable" level to be beta-ready. Everything beyond this is tweaking and code implementations. If anyone was playing the Star Trek Online beta, you'd recognize the kind of vast change a developer is able to make when they stick themselves in a monolithic development cycle (which UWE has) so I'd say sit back, don't worry, and enjoy the Fade tomorrow. :)
Will do - I'll be happy if my worries are unfounded. However, we can only give opinions on what we've seen. :)
No. I am just pointing out that the development process will be similar, and that support post-release (of any stage, alpha, beta, etc), will be long and committed. My faith is not shattered, and the progress chart shows that a number of the big bugs have been squashed.
Fine tuning is the name of the game from here, but there are still additions - it just feels like a more solid and exponential effort from now.
You will get your 40 bugs worth.
why not release it as the next alpha patch and if things go well then take it to beta? this way you'll be taking the less risky road.
In my humble opinion, you guys (Unknown Worlds) need to stop treating ns2 like its a mod.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->This is not how they treated their mod. They're treating NS2 more like a transparent indie game.
Us alpha testers know for long about the performance issues and we already know what to expect with each patch so the community is more settled, but if the new beta testers will rage again... they might make bade reputation. But i hope it's true that te performance issues been fixed more or less completely.
What makes you think that people won't do exactly that?
I've been with this game for years, and I'm a die hard fan that's happy to put up with anything as long as there's eventually a game to play at the end of it. But I'm not talking about me, I'm talking about the general public who is going to see NS2 Beta and go spend money and download it and get... what? That's the question.
<!--quoteo(post=1806533:date=Nov 18 2010, 08:26 PM:name=fex905)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fex905 @ Nov 18 2010, 08:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1806533"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think Beta is pretty malleable term.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure, but in general people expect a beta to be very close to feature complete with only minor bugs. If that describes the version that comes out tomorrow I will be amazed. (I would be extremely happy, but no less amazed) Remember, it's not the people who are on the forums already that need to be convinced. It's the general gaming public and press that need to be convinced. They aren't going to give any traction to arguments that you shouldn't compare it to the TF2 beta or that beta is a malleable term. They're just going to be disappointed and tell their friends or write articles that take sales away from the game once it's released. That's what I don't want to see.
Sure, but in general people expect a FINAL OPEN beta to be very close to feature complete with only minor bugs. <b>*fixed*</b>
But UWE have already made their decision and there is no stopping that. The game's development is coming along nicely and as long as they keep up the pace, I think everything will be good.
oh, I'm not saying they won't. I just think it's funny that they will.
There's no point in trying to convince me, I'm part of the die-hard fan base. It's the gaming public that have to be convinced that this beta is a good thing and worth pre-ordering for. And no one here can do that, that's all in the hands of the Dev team.
I don't know if this means that there are a bunch of great fixes that were left out of the alpha for some reason, or if you guys have made huge strides in the past few days, but either way I'm skeptical of how you can know that without the exposure of alpha. The internal testing team is small and I'm guessing they haven't been having the same performance issues we do, many of which are no doubt hardware related and not just optimization. Jumping straight into beta without confirming that the latest build is beta-worthy is sort of reckless. Not trying to flame you guys, I criticize because I care!
Let UWE do what they decided to do. And make sure any newcomers don't get any Alpha-like ideas about the beta version and complain of something they don't understand as has happened with the alpha.
It would have been better for Unknownworlds to wait for a Beta. But they've said that the beta is tomorrow so we have to back them on that as a community..
<!--quoteo(post=1806328:date=Nov 18 2010, 03:34 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Nov 18 2010, 03:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1806328"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>So, I'm just concerned since I've seen many mods and commercials games die in a withering fire of bad press about how crummy stuff was. Doesn't matter it got better later, people's first impressions start to count as you move into Beta and eventually the final product.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is so important for the developers to consider. There is going to be much more press given to the beta than was given to the Alpha.
Let UWE do what they decided to do. And make sure any newcomers don't get any Alpha-like ideas about the beta version and complain of something they don't understand as has happened with the alpha.
It would have been better for Unknownworlds to wait for a Beta. But they've said that the beta is tomorrow so we have to back them on that as a community..
This is so important for the developers to consider. There is going to be much more press given to the beta than was given to the Alpha.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Close Thread.
Oh really?? Which game was that?
they are a pretty well known gaming website with a bunch of readers, probably one of the largest gaming news sites