Grid is a lot better. Letters doesn't make much sense to me since theres always conflicts, and the letters are all over the place.
Usually you'll start off using the mouse, and when you learn the menus, the shortcuts should fall into place once your understand where the buttons are. That's at least how it was for me in NS.
Even though I sucked at commander, I was able to build things relatively fast. Also please add a dedicated button for Ammo and Medpack if there isn't one already. Possibly make it so when you hit the button it spawns a med/ammo where your mouse cursor is without having to click the mouse.
Definitely grid. It's very easy to learn so long as the pictures are clear (just look where the thing you want is on the grid). Grid also ensures everything is within in easy reach on the keyboard. I play all my RTS games with grid keys thanks to ns1.
PlasmaJoin Date: 2003-04-26Member: 15855Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
Ahrg; just had a horrid time playing commander because 1) Buttons were not responsive (clicking did nothing) and 2) AI dediced they weren't going to build in some areas and 3) Can't always place structures on the ground where you're supposed to be able to, 4) I couldn't see the shortcut keys because the 'Need medpack' green message covered the tooltip, 5) Keyboard shortcuts dont work all of the time (or corrupt the menu some how), 6) Clicking on 'Need medpack' alerts does nothing 7) Clicking 'idle worker' did nothing
Really turned me off com'ing for a while, way too frustrating :(
Interesting that so many people have a problem with V recycling... Happened maybe like 1-2 times to me in years of commanding.
Why not just add an confirmation dialog instead of removing V recycling? You press V Are you sure you want to recycle building XYZ? Z for Yes, V for cancel
Grid. Letter base systems will only get you into trouble, especially when you start getting into the sticky problem of handling other languages. (Or when a player's native language is other than English and they reach for 'K' for 'Konstru'!)
In some ways this is probably the wrong place to be asking this question as by default all the guys posting here will have played NS1 and be fans of the old grid system (Which I am by the way - benefits of use for commanders in long term far outway any short term ease of use effects).
But for my two pence - grid system all the way and do teh same with alien hud, its a nightmare at the mo!
I would actually prefer a modified grid system. One of the gripes that I have with many RTS's camera controls is that you have to use the arrow keys to pan around the screen, which of course puts your arms and hands into a very awkward position. For this reason I like to use WASD to pan. This would mean having to shift the grid from qwer... to rtyu...
Please considering providing an alternate key layout that accomodates WASD panning.
I prefer the Grid system, seams easier to me to understand and learn cause the key and the position are the same.
The perfection will come if you are able to customize the grid position in the keyboard and the position of the icons of every menu, but this will be hard to implement. Let modders do it :V
<!--quoteo(post=1809767:date=Nov 24 2010, 12:47 PM:name=Asraniel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Asraniel @ Nov 24 2010, 12:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1809767"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->my concern with the grid layout is that it will cause problems for non american keyboards.
For example swiss keyboards have the y and z inverted (and some others, but thats the biggest change).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good point, they will have to be selectable in the menus.
I think they should implement both, but set letter as default because I would assume new players to NS will most likely have played games with the letter system, at least I haven't played any RTS game with the grid system. Of course this poll is going to end with Grid winning because most people on these forums are already used to the NS1 commander system but I think we should look at the bigger picture.
As for the letters possibly being in awkwardly far away on the keyboard, well they can just pick any letter of the building/action name that is close to WASD, not just the first one.
Didn't bother reading any of the rest of the thread. Just the first page.
Once you're past the very initial stages of learning to command, and you're at the point of learning hotkeys, you're already familiar with what each of the buttons do and where they are positioned, so you just need to apply an understanding of the grid system to it, which isn't tough at all, and should come naturally since you're already familiar with each button, and its function and position; the letter system, at this point, would only be counter-intuitive.
Grid by default, QWERTY keyboard by default; and allow people to change the hotkeys assigned to each grid position (for whatever reason).
<!--quoteo(post=1809341:date=Nov 23 2010, 07:14 PM:name=WhiteZero)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WhiteZero @ Nov 23 2010, 07:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1809341"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Letter for sure. But having an option to switch between the two would of course be preferable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This.
As a traditional Broodwars player, I much prefer the letters system and think it is more effective, but having an option to select between the two would be nice.
Grid for sure, it's a lot easier to learn. Think about games like Dota (letter) compared to HoN (grid), I at least had a lot easier to learn the binds in HoN.
As a traditional Broodwars player, I much prefer the letters system and think it is more effective, but having an option to select between the two would be nice.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Really? You prefer having to move your fingers all around the keyboard instead of having them in one area at all times?
Grid. (Like NS1) With option to do other way. Then a *.ini that you can edit to make a custom of the grid or the letter assignment. That would be the most widely spread use that could satisfy the most people.
i absolutely disagree with the "letter for newcomer" arguments. people will usually start learning by visuals - they don't know the buttons and might not even know the structures they can build and the dependencies between them. what's more, the average player won't read any documentation. he will just jump into the chair and learn what each structure is doing by reading the mouseover descriptions and just trying out how it behaves. they have to use the mouse for this, which is fine to start with - you won't be the fastest commander in the world within the first 30 minutes anyway...
at some point you want to become faster and realize there is no way around learning the keys. now that you have already learned the layout of all the buttons, what would be easier than just projecting this same layout onto your keyboard? you will not even have to try to remember every key, you just press keys aligned with what you see on the screen. and once your hand found its "base position" it's not necessary to look back and forth between your screen and keyboard every time, even for people who usually have to watch the keyboard while typing.
well, and for players used to NS1 it will be familar anyway.
actually i don't see any good point to that "letter" option.
The way i see it, beginners use the mouse to manually click the buttons while later on when becoming more advanced (and thus, familiar with the button grid layout) they switch to keybinds to optimize their gaming.
Therefore having they keybind set for a more advanced approach is better.
I myself am a commander nub (i rarely even play RTS, they few games i liked were Age of Empires, C&C Red Alert 1&2) so i havent even bothered with keybinds yet and i probably wont either (well, atleast until you are finished with designing the interface structure so i can get familiar with the design).
So having a basic GUI for beginners and an advanced keybind system for pro's would pretty much cover the entire playerbase. (And to actually answer your question :p - i vote for grid layout)
<!--quoteo(post=1810040:date=Nov 25 2010, 12:08 AM:name=Underwhelmed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Underwhelmed @ Nov 25 2010, 12:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810040"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Really? You prefer having to move your fingers all around the keyboard instead of having them in one area at all times?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep.
Having a few hotkeys on the right side isn't always a bad thing. For example the 0p9p8p(build probes in 3 Nexii super quickly) technique with SC1 Protoss. Though I don't think NS2 is gonna need so many control groups and hotkeys that grid might be better.
I don't understand what make people suggest the letter system as more noob friendly. Do you think that experience from other games will make it that much easier? Even for someone experienced like me, I would have to manually look with the mouse for each command the firsts time I played until I memorized which commands are mapped to the first letter in words and which aren't. This is way harder than just realizing that you can keep your hand in place and that the layout corresponds with what you see on the screen - then you can instantly command any game and navigate any tree-structure without even knowing what the names for the icons are. Also this the beginner to know the names of all things in-game, and Phase Gate, MAC, Infantry Portal, Turret Factory aren't the easiest things to remember. Then again learning these really is a good idea :D
I want to make something that players spawn from? I don't know the name? I don't have to position my mouse over the icon that clearly looks like the spawn-thing to figure out the name of the damn thing, only to then find out that the letter doesn't correspond to the first letter (I - Infantry Potal) because it's in an awkward position on the keyboard. Then when I switch to command as alien, it's in a completely different position, WTF? With a grid system this would work intuitively with no extra learning involved.
Grid has a way easier learning-curve, because once you get the basic concept there is no more learning to do. I also imagine a lot of the people who voted letter only did so because they did not understand what a grid is by reading the description, or thought that it sounded complex without having tried it. The problem is how you make the new players understand that there's a simple grid, because it actually took my a few games of commanding in NS1 until I realized this.
In Dota every new hero has a different key layout, which demands your hand to be in different places every time, while in HoN it's always consistent - which one is more beginner-friendly?
ArcL!ghtJoin Date: 2007-11-27Member: 63031Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
edited November 2010
One thing game developers never take for an issue is Dvorak layout. 95% of the world uses Qwerty/qwertz system, French use Azerty, but myself I use Dvorak because I type alot and over the years I've forgot the basic Qwerty layout and completly turned to Dvorak (after all Dvorak has a shorter "distance" then Qwerty does, even tho Colemak seems a possibility for me too because of even shorter distance.
Of course, every OS does have this support, but all the games come in defult qwerty system.
The reason I never commanded ns1 was due to incompatibility of Dvorak with NS1 style commanding. If you employ either of systems (grid or letters) commanding will be a pain in the ass again because of it. I think that it is not that hard to write down a few more code lines and add 2 more menu choices for Dvorak and Colemak if you go for Grid style which is my personal favourite.
I know that I'm probably a minority here, but make me happy UWE (joke, I'm happy already with my NS2 copy as it is, after all NS1 was the 1st game I ever played online on my old 56k modem in spring 2003. Not sure but I think it was 1.4 or something like that version :).
<!--quoteo(post=1810552:date=Nov 25 2010, 11:10 PM:name=ArcL!ght)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ArcL!ght @ Nov 25 2010, 11:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810552"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One thing game developers never take for an issue is Dvorak layout. 95% of the world uses Qwerty/qwertz system, French use Azerty, but myself I use Dvorak because I type alot and over the years I've forgot the basic Qwerty layout and completly turned to Dvorak (after all Dvorak has a shorter "distance" then Qwerty does, even tho Colemak seems a possibility for me too because of even shorter distance.
Of course, every OS does have this support, but all the games come in defult qwerty system.
The reason I never commanded ns1 was due to incompatibility of Dvorak with NS1 style commanding. If you employ either of systems (grid or letters) commanding will be a pain in the ass again because of it. I think that it is not that hard to write down a few more code lines and add 2 more menu choices for Dvorak and Colemak if you go for Grid style which is my personal favourite.
<b>I know that I'm probably a minority here</b>, but make me happy UWE (joke, I'm happy already with my NS2 copy as it is, after all NS1 was the 1st game I ever played online on my old 56k modem in spring 2003. Not sure but I think it was 1.4 or something like that version :).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ArcL!ghtJoin Date: 2007-11-27Member: 63031Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
edited November 2010
<!--quoteo(post=1810557:date=Nov 26 2010, 12:23 AM:name=Revi.uk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Revi.uk @ Nov 26 2010, 12:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810557"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yep, a 5% minority if that.
You can remap the keys by the way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Remaping is not a problem, but a default option would be usefull for people who don't know how to use console. It's not that every gamer is a pro gamer who knows every console command for every engine type.
<!--quoteo(post=1810571:date=Nov 26 2010, 01:23 AM:name=Mendasp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mendasp @ Nov 26 2010, 01:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810571"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You could remap the keys in NS1, too, btw.
True, but the functionality of that never seem to get the way you wanted it on Dvorak for as you can see the qwe starts with signs, and dependable on keyboard language layout it's not the same (example English and German Qwerty system) <img src="http://www.aarontoponce.org/presents/dvorak/images/dvorak.png" border="0" class="linked-image" /> On Colemak that would not be such a problem, but in Dvorak easiest thing was to make a "shift-grid"
GISPBattle GorgeDenmarkJoin Date: 2004-03-20Member: 27460Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Gold, Subnautica Playtester, Forum staff
QWERT is hands down the best option for competative play. If you want NS2 to become a competative eSport, the super skilled commanders would want to, be able to, reach all the buttoms whit one hand... Like starcraft, micro & macro management.
I see the problem, yeah. They said it was going to be customizable and let you choose between grid, letters and custom, so I think that means it will be a menu option. I don't know if they can detect keyboard layout, but I suppose you could bind those keys fine now (unlike in HL1).
ArcL!ghtJoin Date: 2007-11-27Member: 63031Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
Well I do hope for custom layout then. And I do hope for user side scripting for example "buidling under attack" press j to jump to location (or space or whatever). So the script also puts alert etc. on the spot when you press J so whole team can see.
Comments
Usually you'll start off using the mouse, and when you learn the menus, the shortcuts should fall into place once your understand where the buttons are. That's at least how it was for me in NS.
Even though I sucked at commander, I was able to build things relatively fast. Also please add a dedicated button for Ammo and Medpack if there isn't one already. Possibly make it so when you hit the button it spawns a med/ammo where your mouse cursor is without having to click the mouse.
Really turned me off com'ing for a while, way too frustrating :(
Happened maybe like 1-2 times to me in years of commanding.
Why not just add an confirmation dialog instead of removing V recycling?
You press V
Are you sure you want to recycle building XYZ?
Z for Yes, V for cancel
Done
But for my two pence - grid system all the way and do teh same with alien hud, its a nightmare at the mo!
Please considering providing an alternate key layout that accomodates WASD panning.
For example swiss keyboards have the y and z inverted (and some others, but thats the biggest change).
The perfection will come if you are able to customize the grid position in the keyboard and the position of the icons of every menu, but this will be hard to implement. Let modders do it :V
For example swiss keyboards have the y and z inverted (and some others, but thats the biggest change).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good point, they will have to be selectable in the menus.
As for the letters possibly being in awkwardly far away on the keyboard, well they can just pick any letter of the building/action name that is close to WASD, not just the first one.
Once you're past the very initial stages of learning to command, and you're at the point of learning hotkeys, you're already familiar with what each of the buttons do and where they are positioned, so you just need to apply an understanding of the grid system to it, which isn't tough at all, and should come naturally since you're already familiar with each button, and its function and position; the letter system, at this point, would only be counter-intuitive.
Grid by default, QWERTY keyboard by default; and allow people to change the hotkeys assigned to each grid position (for whatever reason).
This.
As a traditional Broodwars player, I much prefer the letters system and think it is more effective, but having an option to select between the two would be nice.
As a traditional Broodwars player, I much prefer the letters system and think it is more effective, but having an option to select between the two would be nice.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really? You prefer having to move your fingers all around the keyboard instead of having them in one area at all times?
people will usually start learning by visuals - they don't know the buttons and might not even know the structures they can build and the dependencies between them. what's more, the average player won't read any documentation. he will just jump into the chair and learn what each structure is doing by reading the mouseover descriptions and just trying out how it behaves. they have to use the mouse for this, which is fine to start with - you won't be the fastest commander in the world within the first 30 minutes anyway...
at some point you want to become faster and realize there is no way around learning the keys. now that you have already learned the layout of all the buttons, what would be easier than just projecting this same layout onto your keyboard? you will not even have to try to remember every key, you just press keys aligned with what you see on the screen.
and once your hand found its "base position" it's not necessary to look back and forth between your screen and keyboard every time, even for people who usually have to watch the keyboard while typing.
well, and for players used to NS1 it will be familar anyway.
actually i don't see any good point to that "letter" option.
Therefore having they keybind set for a more advanced approach is better.
I myself am a commander nub (i rarely even play RTS, they few games i liked were Age of Empires, C&C Red Alert 1&2) so i havent even bothered with keybinds yet and i probably wont either (well, atleast until you are finished with designing the interface structure so i can get familiar with the design).
So having a basic GUI for beginners and an advanced keybind system for pro's would pretty much cover the entire playerbase.
(And to actually answer your question :p - i vote for grid layout)
Like a mixture between grid and letters.
Yep.
Having a few hotkeys on the right side isn't always a bad thing. For example the 0p9p8p(build probes in 3 Nexii super quickly) technique with SC1 Protoss. Though I don't think NS2 is gonna need so many control groups and hotkeys that grid might be better.
I want to make something that players spawn from? I don't know the name? I don't have to position my mouse over the icon that clearly looks like the spawn-thing to figure out the name of the damn thing, only to then find out that the letter doesn't correspond to the first letter (I - Infantry Potal) because it's in an awkward position on the keyboard. Then when I switch to command as alien, it's in a completely different position, WTF? With a grid system this would work intuitively with no extra learning involved.
Grid has a way easier learning-curve, because once you get the basic concept there is no more learning to do. I also imagine a lot of the people who voted letter only did so because they did not understand what a grid is by reading the description, or thought that it sounded complex without having tried it. The problem is how you make the new players understand that there's a simple grid, because it actually took my a few games of commanding in NS1 until I realized this.
In Dota every new hero has a different key layout, which demands your hand to be in different places every time, while in HoN it's always consistent - which one is more beginner-friendly?
Of course, every OS does have this support, but all the games come in defult qwerty system.
The reason I never commanded ns1 was due to incompatibility of Dvorak with NS1 style commanding.
If you employ either of systems (grid or letters) commanding will be a pain in the ass again because of it. I think that
it is not that hard to write down a few more code lines and add 2 more menu choices for Dvorak and Colemak
if you go for Grid style which is my personal favourite.
I know that I'm probably a minority here, but make me happy UWE (joke, I'm happy already with my NS2 copy as it is, after all NS1 was the 1st game I ever played online on my old 56k modem in spring 2003. Not sure but I think it was 1.4 or something like that version :).
Of course, every OS does have this support, but all the games come in defult qwerty system.
The reason I never commanded ns1 was due to incompatibility of Dvorak with NS1 style commanding.
If you employ either of systems (grid or letters) commanding will be a pain in the ass again because of it. I think that
it is not that hard to write down a few more code lines and add 2 more menu choices for Dvorak and Colemak
if you go for Grid style which is my personal favourite.
<b>I know that I'm probably a minority here</b>, but make me happy UWE (joke, I'm happy already with my NS2 copy as it is, after all NS1 was the 1st game I ever played online on my old 56k modem in spring 2003. Not sure but I think it was 1.4 or something like that version :).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep, a 5% minority if that.
You can remap the keys by the way.
cl_cmhotkeys "qwerasdfzxcv"
You can remap the keys by the way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Remaping is not a problem, but a default option would be usefull for people
who don't know how to use console. It's not that every gamer is a pro
gamer who knows every console command for every engine type.
<!--quoteo(post=1810571:date=Nov 26 2010, 01:23 AM:name=Mendasp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mendasp @ Nov 26 2010, 01:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810571"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You could remap the keys in NS1, too, btw.
cl_cmhotkeys "qwerasdfzxcv"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, but the functionality of that never seem to get the way you wanted it on Dvorak
for as you can see the qwe starts with signs, and dependable on keyboard language layout it's not the same (example English and German Qwerty system)
<img src="http://www.aarontoponce.org/presents/dvorak/images/dvorak.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
On Colemak that would not be such a problem, but in Dvorak easiest thing was to make a "shift-grid"
If you want NS2 to become a competative eSport, the super skilled commanders would want to, be able to, reach all the buttoms whit one hand...
Like starcraft, micro & macro management.
And I do hope for user side scripting for example "buidling under attack" press j to jump to location (or space or whatever). So the script also puts alert etc. on the spot when you press J so whole team can see.
1) Grid (default) - Native to NS1 players and also easy square / key mappings
2) Hotkey
3) Custom bindings.
It's quite important imho that you can swap between say customs and grid without having to spend ages rebinding the keys to reset and back again.