<!--quoteo(post=1818999:date=Dec 24 2010, 07:04 AM:name=Price)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Price @ Dec 24 2010, 07:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1818999"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Before you cry about valve, they did a very great job with Half-Life 1 (+addons!) also Half-Life 2 was a ok game, but what they did with the HL2 episodes, or the addon called "l4d2" and selling other FREE mods like dod, cs and on...valve is now more like EA. Oh and of course the BIG money making with selling virtual items of team fortress 2 ruins the game totaly in my mind. And i hate people loving them for everything, i can't belive how blind are fanboys are. Valve release a new TF2 update, everybody is like "wohoo i love valve, they are so great and love the community" but the point in releasing TF2 Updates is making money money money, no "love" to the community, because everytime after they release a new update, the sells increase a lot and people play tf2 again, every server of my mates servers was totaly full. Think about it fanboys! So i hope Unknown Worlds Entertainment will not be like them, indie games FTW!
- a NS1(/2) fan<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I really didn't like the L4D2 thing. But valve is really aggressive with trying to make the PC games industry more affordable to gamers with their steam project, they are really aggressive in giving the indie developer a leg up, and I feel like we have yet to see where valve's game development talents really lie in this day and age. Portal 2 and HL2 eps 3 will answer a lot of questions. I'm not ready to champion the cause with Valve right now, but I'm not ready to light the torches and gather up the pitchforks yet either.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited December 2010
They're acting like a business, no surprise there... But they still do a nice thing for indie's trough Steam though, so what if they are making money. Sounds to me like you're mad they are making money :P
TF2, meh I haven't played that over a few months now. And L4D(2) while awesome at first has degenerated into: "why do I have this installed again..." No real innovations has come from the company for years now, the 4 player COOP and LOL TF2 look was an over-hyped thing, but I did have a bit of fun in L4D and TF2 despite that fact... The funny thing about TF2 though, if I boot it up right now after all these months, I'm sure I can have some fun in it. Playing on a server that is casual helps I guess [GFL] server ftw!
Ok i forget that valve realy help the PC and specialy the Indie-developer (like UWE too) with Steam. So this topic is totaly stupid, every company wants the money. Okay valve goes a lot the way like EA with milk the cow, but which company wouldn't do that?
Valve is one of the best business structures around.
Money first (Steam), Passion second (Games).
It means they're able to do whatever the hell and take as long as they want on their passion because the money is easily coming in.
Comparing Valve to EA is dumb. Sure Valve have bought some studios, one was taking a dive (Turtle Rock.. eventually let go of too), the other being this upcoming DOTA 2 thing. Although Valve don't rush games, EA does from what I see. For EA, it's money first, money second, money third and games fourth; yet no passion.
Valve smartened and monopolised the business model before other companies laid claim to it. Well done Valve.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Price)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Price)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but the point in releasing TF2 Updates is making money money money, no "love" to the community<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href="http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Stamp" target="_blank">WHAT</a>.
<a href="http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/31109/InDepth_Team_Fortress_2_Community_Contributors_FiveFigure_Payoffs.php?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+GamasutraNews+%28Gamasutra+News%29&utm_content=Google+International" target="_blank">ALSO</a>. TLDR, authors of community made items get a 25% cut. "Valve said that community content creators .... took home initial royalty payments <b>ranging from $39,000 to $47,000 each</b> from the first round of Team Fortress 2 content creation. And these are just the checks from <b>the first two weeks of operation</b>."
douchebagatronCustom member titleJoin Date: 2003-12-20Member: 24581Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
Also regarding td2: tf2 costs 10 dollars. every update is free, and it is possible to get (almost) every item through just playing the game, never having to spend money, and the items that do require a purchase do not give any sort of upper-hand in the game. while the item store is a blatant move to make money, the money is accumulated from gamers who WANT to spend the money on OPTIONAL items. it's entirely possible to play the game without spending a dime and never losing due to lack of money spent.
on the other hand you have EA where when they do an item store like this, the players who spend money get an actual advantage in the game, which drastically reduces the fun level for everyone who isn't willing to spend.
tldr: tf2's income comes from community members optionally purchasing things that don't give them any sort of upper-hand.
<!--quoteo(post=1819598:date=Dec 27 2010, 01:28 AM:name=6john)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (6john @ Dec 27 2010, 01:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1819598"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and the items that do require a purchase do not give any sort of upper-hand in the game<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Except the milk man hat for the scout is a gigantic grind to craft and is worth 25 hitpoints with no drawback. That's an upper hand.
There is also that they are making it increasingly difficult to get weapons in a non-purchase manner. Every update adds more, so random drop is all but hopeless. Crafting recipes were a good idea, but they are what is getting harder. The first ones were a simple weapon+weapon=newweapon. Then they started including metal in increasing amounts and now the latest round of additions need two reclaimed metal and a weapon, resulting in such an obnoxious "price" of 13 weapons being turned into 1.
The store would have been fine if they wouldn't keep pushing it.
X_StickmanNot good enough for a custom title.Join Date: 2003-04-15Member: 15533Members, Constellation
Valve couldn't have really added the trading system without adding the store. Without the store, there'd have been a "black market" of people selling rare items for $lots (come on; you know it'd exist).
By having everything for sale in the store, valve have basically put a relatively low price cap on everything. You can't ask $70 for supercrazyrarehat on eBay (or whatever the kids are using nowadays) when Valve are selling it for $10 or whatever.
<!--quoteo(post=1819621:date=Dec 27 2010, 03:53 AM:name=X_Stickman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (X_Stickman @ Dec 27 2010, 03:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1819621"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Valve couldn't have really added the trading system without adding the store. Without the store, there'd have been a "black market" of people selling rare items for $lots (come on; you know it'd exist).
By having everything for sale in the store, valve have basically put a relatively low price cap on everything. You can't ask $70 for supercrazyrarehat on eBay (or whatever the kids are using nowadays) when Valve are selling it for $10 or whatever.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You could've left out the set bonuses though.
I don't play TF2 because of all the gubbins forcibly shoved into its once special place, and every time I see a thread like this I'm amazed at how it continues to spiral out of control.
I heard at one stage they were going to allow you to play 'vanilla' TF2. Is there any truth to this?
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1820752:date=Jan 1 2011, 07:24 PM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Crispy @ Jan 1 2011, 07:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820752"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't play TF2 because of all the gubbins forcibly shoved into its once special place, and every time I see a thread like this I'm amazed at how it continues to spiral out of control.
I heard at one stage they were going to allow you to play 'vanilla' TF2. Is there any truth to this?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> PS3? :P
<!--quoteo(post=1820752:date=Jan 1 2011, 02:24 PM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Crispy @ Jan 1 2011, 02:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820752"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't play TF2 because of all the gubbins forcibly shoved into its once special place<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Same.
To be honest, aside from Half-Life 1, every Valve game I think think of is (imo) mediocre. TF2 gets very boring, Portal was not challenging and the gameplay/puzzles were lackluster, and HL2's story was disappointing plus the additional episodes come out <i>so</i> slow and only continue the not so great story. On top of all of this, I hate the Source engine. It doesn't feel smooth, solid, and precise like HL1's engine did.
The best thing to come of Half-Life 2? Designers suddenly started realising they had to 'step up' the physics in games.
Half-Life was fun, the mods were awesome. Half-Life 2 was okay, felt a bit stretched to needing to finish it but not wanting to. Episodes? Yeah a bit boring. Portal? Bunch of crap. Lowest grade tech demo I've ever seen. TF2? Was pretty new and good at first, however it then spiralled in to a ###### tip of retarded weapon adds, critical hits, on chance item and weapon effects and so forth. It's really just a headache.
All that aside about Portal, the real Portal game, Portal 2 looks decent in previews so far. Actually having what appears to be a bit of a better story, a lot better visuals and puzzles and gameplay elements. Looks like a real package from videos so far.
Half-Life 2 mods have all failed to impress me and quite honestly look like half-arsed guys making things as student projects for an hour or two a day. The Orion modification is the only mod to look 'finished' yet that's a generic shoot 'em up clone.
Valve though, really I don't look at them as a game design company anymore. I look at them as the number one gaming marketing company; how they got Steam to where it is and what it is today by being the first to do it and do it well is a massively successful product and business.
HL1 sold 20M copies, HL2 ~8M. HL1 was unbelievably bad game and they scrapped it all and redid it piece by piece. Most important point is that all Valve games can be played right from the start and are not frustrating. That's not the case with NS2 atm: 1. no one going comm, 30 s delay is often enough to lose, it could use comm vote/preparation period like 30-120 s 2. no minimap (I know it'll be added but still saying) 3. no outline through walls like in L4D or anything to help with squad-based teamplay 4. no indications (voice message and/or chat/HUD) about important buildings or strategic points being attacked, I'd like my team to hear about base IP going down 5. hidden behavior - marines got that CC spot and upgraded CC so 10 minutes later they roll out with flamethrowers when that expansion spot is a colony
After game is released it you should be able to put bunch of CS players in front of the computer (with few experienced teammates) and have enjoyable game.
(don't treat that list too seriously since I know it'll get corrected over time, I don't want another fanboy explosion here)
Don't get too offended, I said Portal 2 looks decent. I just think what Portal 2 looks like, should have been what Portal 1 was. I'm a hard man to please ;)
<!--quoteo(post=1820755:date=Jan 1 2011, 07:43 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Jan 1 2011, 07:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820755"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->PS3? :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Sorry, I should have specified I wanted to play TF2 vanilla <i>with other people</i>!
As for Valve's other offerings, I think in general they're all pretty top-notch. Other than the TF2 debacle and the <i>Dynamic Weapons Pricing</i> for CSS, anything I really haven't liked has been free and avoidable, such as L4D's Survival Mode and some of the weaker TF2 community maps when I was still playing it. Imo L4D2 has come to justify its status as a sequel as opposed to an expansion-packaged-as-a-sequel, although I do wish some of the Special Infected hitboxes were more accurate.
I like that Valve feel free to experiment as it leads to a lot of creativity, I only wish that they always gave users the option to filter out really significant modifications to the game so they could play the game that was reviewed and paid for at release. The argument against an opt-in scheme for mods is that it will split the community, but I think the very obvious counter-argument to that is 'Why are you altering something such that -if people had a choice in the matter- it would split the community so heavily?'.
Survival mode is brilliant. It requires real teamplay with friends. Although I guess in a public setting it's not so good but if you've got 8 friends, get them on a voice server and play. It's a lot of fun.
<!--quoteo(post=1820975:date=Jan 2 2011, 02:15 PM:name=MOOtant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MOOtant @ Jan 2 2011, 02:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820975"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Dynamic pricing in CS:S was a good idea and it made weapon choices more interesting but CS:S "community" doesn't like any changes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, it is a competition-based community, changes mess with the balance
Comments
but what they did with the HL2 episodes, or the addon called "l4d2" and selling other FREE mods like dod, cs and on...valve is now more like EA.
Oh and of course the BIG money making with selling virtual items of team fortress 2 ruins the game totaly in my mind.
And i hate people loving them for everything, i can't belive how blind are fanboys are.
Valve release a new TF2 update, everybody is like "wohoo i love valve, they are so great and love the community"
but the point in releasing TF2 Updates is making money money money, no "love" to the community, because everytime after they release a new update, the sells increase a lot and people play tf2 again, every server of my mates servers was totaly full.
Think about it fanboys!
So i hope Unknown Worlds Entertainment will not be like them, indie games FTW!
- a NS1(/2) fan<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really didn't like the L4D2 thing. But valve is really aggressive with trying to make the PC games industry more affordable to gamers with their steam project, they are really aggressive in giving the indie developer a leg up, and I feel like we have yet to see where valve's game development talents really lie in this day and age. Portal 2 and HL2 eps 3 will answer a lot of questions. I'm not ready to champion the cause with Valve right now, but I'm not ready to light the torches and gather up the pitchforks yet either.
TF2, meh I haven't played that over a few months now. And L4D(2) while awesome at first has degenerated into: "why do I have this installed again..." No real innovations has come from the company for years now, the 4 player COOP and LOL TF2 look was an over-hyped thing, but I did have a bit of fun in L4D and TF2 despite that fact... The funny thing about TF2 though, if I boot it up right now after all these months, I'm sure I can have some fun in it. Playing on a server that is casual helps I guess [GFL] server ftw!
So this topic is totaly stupid, every company wants the money.
Okay valve goes a lot the way like EA with milk the cow, but which company wouldn't do that?
Money first (Steam), Passion second (Games).
It means they're able to do whatever the hell and take as long as they want on their passion because the money is easily coming in.
Comparing Valve to EA is dumb. Sure Valve have bought some studios, one was taking a dive (Turtle Rock.. eventually let go of too), the other being this upcoming DOTA 2 thing. Although Valve don't rush games, EA does from what I see. For EA, it's money first, money second, money third and games fourth; yet no passion.
Valve smartened and monopolised the business model before other companies laid claim to it. Well done Valve.
<a href="http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Stamp" target="_blank">WHAT</a>.
<a href="http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/31109/InDepth_Team_Fortress_2_Community_Contributors_FiveFigure_Payoffs.php?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+GamasutraNews+%28Gamasutra+News%29&utm_content=Google+International" target="_blank">ALSO</a>.
TLDR, authors of community made items get a 25% cut. "Valve said that community content creators .... took home initial royalty payments <b>ranging from $39,000 to $47,000 each</b> from the first round of Team Fortress 2 content creation. And these are just the checks from <b>the first two weeks of operation</b>."
on the other hand you have EA where when they do an item store like this, the players who spend money get an actual advantage in the game, which drastically reduces the fun level for everyone who isn't willing to spend.
tldr: tf2's income comes from community members optionally purchasing things that don't give them any sort of upper-hand.
Except the milk man hat for the scout is a gigantic grind to craft and is worth 25 hitpoints with no drawback. That's an upper hand.
The store would have been fine if they wouldn't keep pushing it.
By having everything for sale in the store, valve have basically put a relatively low price cap on everything. You can't ask $70 for supercrazyrarehat on eBay (or whatever the kids are using nowadays) when Valve are selling it for $10 or whatever.
And a whole lot more listings have been sold for dumb prices on e-bay!
By having everything for sale in the store, valve have basically put a relatively low price cap on everything. You can't ask $70 for supercrazyrarehat on eBay (or whatever the kids are using nowadays) when Valve are selling it for $10 or whatever.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You could've left out the set bonuses though.
I heard at one stage they were going to allow you to play 'vanilla' TF2. Is there any truth to this?
I heard at one stage they were going to allow you to play 'vanilla' TF2. Is there any truth to this?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
PS3? :P
Same.
To be honest, aside from Half-Life 1, every Valve game I think think of is (imo) mediocre. TF2 gets very boring, Portal was not challenging and the gameplay/puzzles were lackluster, and HL2's story was disappointing plus the additional episodes come out <i>so</i> slow and only continue the not so great story. On top of all of this, I hate the Source engine. It doesn't feel smooth, solid, and precise like HL1's engine did.
Half-Life was fun, the mods were awesome.
Half-Life 2 was okay, felt a bit stretched to needing to finish it but not wanting to.
Episodes? Yeah a bit boring.
Portal? Bunch of crap. Lowest grade tech demo I've ever seen.
TF2? Was pretty new and good at first, however it then spiralled in to a ###### tip of retarded weapon adds, critical hits, on chance item and weapon effects and so forth. It's really just a headache.
All that aside about Portal, the real Portal game, Portal 2 looks decent in previews so far. Actually having what appears to be a bit of a better story, a lot better visuals and puzzles and gameplay elements. Looks like a real package from videos so far.
Half-Life 2 mods have all failed to impress me and quite honestly look like half-arsed guys making things as student projects for an hour or two a day. The Orion modification is the only mod to look 'finished' yet that's a generic shoot 'em up clone.
Valve though, really I don't look at them as a game design company anymore. I look at them as the number one gaming marketing company; how they got Steam to where it is and what it is today by being the first to do it and do it well is a massively successful product and business.
1. no one going comm, 30 s delay is often enough to lose, it could use comm vote/preparation period like 30-120 s
2. no minimap (I know it'll be added but still saying)
3. no outline through walls like in L4D or anything to help with squad-based teamplay
4. no indications (voice message and/or chat/HUD) about important buildings or strategic points being attacked, I'd like my team to hear about base IP going down
5. hidden behavior - marines got that CC spot and upgraded CC so 10 minutes later they roll out with flamethrowers when that expansion spot is a colony
After game is released it you should be able to put bunch of CS players in front of the computer (with few experienced teammates) and have enjoyable game.
(don't treat that list too seriously since I know it'll get corrected over time, I don't want another fanboy explosion here)
:(
:(<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't get too offended, I said Portal 2 looks decent. I just think what Portal 2 looks like, should have been what Portal 1 was. I'm a hard man to please ;)
What?
As for Valve's other offerings, I think in general they're all pretty top-notch. Other than the TF2 debacle and the <i>Dynamic Weapons Pricing</i> for CSS, anything I really haven't liked has been free and avoidable, such as L4D's Survival Mode and some of the weaker TF2 community maps when I was still playing it. Imo L4D2 has come to justify its status as a sequel as opposed to an expansion-packaged-as-a-sequel, although I do wish some of the Special Infected hitboxes were more accurate.
I like that Valve feel free to experiment as it leads to a lot of creativity, I only wish that they always gave users the option to filter out really significant modifications to the game so they could play the game that was reviewed and paid for at release. The argument against an opt-in scheme for mods is that it will split the community, but I think the very obvious counter-argument to that is 'Why are you altering something such that -if people had a choice in the matter- it would split the community so heavily?'.
Well, it is a competition-based community, changes mess with the balance
The lumberjack-iteration.