Im glad they put it in, automatical high backspeed was just lame. Now you actually have to do something more than just press one button to succesfully gain distance to your enemy, not to mention it requires you to turn your gun away from the enemy for a moment. Backpedaling still has its uses, sometimes its better to keep shooting while you gain a little bit of distance than turning your back completely and then trying to line your shot again.
<!--quoteo(post=1820803:date=Jan 2 2011, 03:09 AM:name=SgtBarlow)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SgtBarlow @ Jan 2 2011, 03:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820803"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You know, if moving backwards slowy was in on first release, it would not have had hardly if any attention what so ever, because you have had a taste of the benefit of incorrectly legging it backwards, its now a problem for people in NS2 that does not seem to have a problem of whining about in NS1 that also walks backwards at the same slow speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I was actually for slowing the backwards speed, a skulk has to be able to catch up with a backwalking marine, however having it at 40% is pretty much equivalent to removing the key completely. Give it a reasonable speed, enough to be a disadvantage, but not to cripple movement completely (70%?). After all, you guys said you're against movement impairment abilities back in the days.
<!--quoteo(post=1820808:date=Jan 2 2011, 02:25 AM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Jan 2 2011, 02:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820808"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You know what? You are maybe right but...
Maybe its only because "Strobo-Skulk", that this is such a big deal for me... atm movment for marines is more important than shooting(without flamethrower), because alien (esp. skulk) movement is everything but smooth. (if you are the one trying to shoot it)
Still while i can live with the slow and bypass it - i dont think its good. (i wont repeat why, again.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The "strobo-skulk" impression is standing out to you because you're used to the smoother and more predictable movement patterns that emerged as you used air acceleration in the gldsrc engine. Without it the best way to dodge a marine is to move in a random pattern while staying bound to the ground. Something which is a pain to deal with as a marine, especially considering netcode issues, looks strange and makes the ability of the skulk progress decisively less well with the skill of the player (as opposed to the ability to track and aim while holding 's' as a marine).
Actually it was still the best way to dodge fire in NS1 but it wasn't that big of an issue. There was an element of player choice involved where you weighed the benifits of speed versus longevity. Removing the possibility of a player skill related speed increase throws off that balance. If dodging randomly is the only alternative to running straight forward everyone will do that always.
<!--quoteo(post=1820907:date=Jan 2 2011, 02:20 PM:name=Vic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vic @ Jan 2 2011, 02:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820907"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was actually for slowing the backwards speed, a skulk has to be able to catch up with a backwalking marine, however having it at 40% is pretty much equivalent to removing the key completely. Give it a reasonable speed, enough to be a disadvantage, but not to cripple movement completely (70%?). After all, you guys said you're against movement impairment abilities back in the days.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Moving and dodging as a marine needs to have a skill element so it scales well with the skill of the skulk to move and dodge. That's in my opinion the way to make melee vs ranged combat fun and balanced (relative to level of ability). A high backward moving speed would make pressing 's' while holding fire the end-all be-all of marine in battle behaviour. It is also a very fragile balance. If the backwards speed is too high even marginally then that will break the marine-skulk interaction. If it is lower than that dodging in another way would (ideally) always be the better option. It's not a very far fetched idea that moving backwards being a good option would a) become boring rather quickly and b) make it difficult to balance the game decently at both a high skill level and a public server or beginners level at the same time (assuming a skill based skulk movement option).
[Edit] Of course if we don't care for this level of depth then the mechanics of 's' + aim and random movement pattern dodging is great to level the playing field and balance the game around. But I doubt the game will have the same longevity as the first in the series.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2011
Even during 0.5 second of back-pedaling, a marine with perfect aim would deal enough damage to kill a skulk. Slow backspeed is implemented so aliens (most of which only have melee attacks) have a better chance to damage marines, rather than to cripple marine's damage against aliens. If an alien is able to get close to a marine, the marine SHOULD be in trouble.
The thing is, you can look at it the other way: If an alien is unable to get close to a marine, the alien SHOULD be in trouble. If you're an alien you're not supposed to be rushing straight at a marine, you're supposed to be sneaky, drop off ceilings, leap out of vents, and bite them in the ass. An alien's ability to do THAT is independent of marine backpedal speed.
<!--quoteo(post=1821048:date=Jan 2 2011, 10:13 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 2 2011, 10:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821048"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you're an alien you're not supposed to be rushing straight at a marine, you're supposed to be sneaky, drop off ceilings, leap out of vents, and bite them in the ass. An alien's ability to do THAT is independent of marine backpedal speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This.
I can see a 70% ish, give or take with testing but 40% glues a marine to the floor. I know full speed backwards is too fast and a marine can maintain good distance even if they do get ambushed. I don't get the argument of it being unrealistic to move straight backwards and aim well given the current alternative of strafe jumping in a circle while shooting.
<!--quoteo(post=1821048:date=Jan 3 2011, 04:13 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 3 2011, 04:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821048"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The thing is, you can look at it the other way: If an alien is unable to get close to a marine, the alien SHOULD be in trouble. If you're an alien you're not supposed to be rushing straight at a marine, you're supposed to be sneaky, drop off ceilings, leap out of vents, and bite them in the ass. An alien's ability to do THAT is independent of marine backpedal speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> When both teams are playing well, a big share of the fights are something between the optimal approaches of each team; marine sees the target, but doesn't necessarily have enough DPS to kill the skulk(s) before it's too late.
In such close quarters half-ambushes the backpedal becomes almost certain extra lifetime and a couple of extra bullets. I just can't see any point in adding that extra margin in there.
<!--quoteo(post=1821129:date=Jan 3 2011, 10:33 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jan 3 2011, 10:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821129"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In such close quarters half-ambushes the backpedal becomes almost certain extra lifetime and a couple of extra bullets. I just can't see any point in adding that extra margin in there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Only because it feels more intuitive the player, as far as I can tell from the comments folks are making about it. You could just as easily say
<!--quoteo(post=1821129:date=Jan 3 2011, 10:33 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jan 3 2011, 10:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821129"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In such close quarters half-ambushes the nerfed backpedal becomes an almost certain kill and a couple less steps the human player can take before dying. I just can't see any point in adding that extra margin in there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Speaking of what is intuitive to players:
<!--quoteo(post=1820900:date=Jan 2 2011, 12:28 PM:name=Zuriki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zuriki @ Jan 2 2011, 12:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820900"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When I press S I feel like both of my legs broke and I'm actually just bumshuffling along the ground.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've always wanted to see a game that used clumsiness as a game mechanic, for example backpedaling soldiers would move at almost full speed and have a ~10% chance of tripping and falling, which would reduce their movement speed until they could get up. Apparently it already "feels" intuitively like this is happening instantly, but it might be an interesting mechanic if the chance of it happening increased over time. It would both make sense intuitively and also give a disencentive to overly rely on moving backwards.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1821130:date=Jan 3 2011, 09:38 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jan 3 2011, 09:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821130"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Speaking of what is intuitive to players:
I've always wanted to see a game that used clumsiness as a game mechanic, for example backpedaling soldiers would move at almost full speed and have a ~10% chance of tripping and falling, which would reduce their movement speed until they could get up. Apparently it already "feels" intuitively like this is happening instantly, but it might be an interesting mechanic if the chance of it happening increased over time. It would both make sense intuitively and also give a disencentive to overly rely on moving backwards.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It has been clear that the developers of NS want to limit the amount of random factors to highlight the importance of strategies, as in Real Time Strategy. For example, there are no "critical strikes" usually seen in other FPS in the form of head shots.
Movement penalties that occur at random are neither intuitive, nor is it a good method of balancing. Usually, if an event has a small chance to happen, then the effect would have to be magnified to make it more significant. In this case, the marine might have a 10% chance to stop moving completely for two second each second spent moving backwards. That can be very frustrating for the marine who steps back and suddenly finding himself unable to move.
<!--quoteo(post=1821129:date=Jan 3 2011, 09:33 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jan 3 2011, 09:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821129"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In such close quarters half-ambushes the backpedal becomes almost certain extra lifetime and a couple of extra bullets. I just can't see any point in adding that extra margin in there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I share that same sentiment. A Skulk/Fade that got next to a marine probably took quite a bit of effort to get there. I definitely would not want to see that said marine completely turn the table on the Skulk by running away backwards and blasting it to pieces.
<!--quoteo(post=1820929:date=Jan 2 2011, 04:43 PM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Jan 2 2011, 04:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820929"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Even during 0.5 second of back-pedaling, a marine with perfect aim would deal enough damage to kill a skulk. Slow backspeed is implemented so aliens (most of which only have melee attacks) have a better chance to damage marines, rather than to cripple marine's damage against aliens. If an alien is able to get close to a marine, the marine SHOULD be in trouble.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bacillus has addressed this already, but I'll add my two cents. If we take your approach and apply it on two teams with perfect skill, then the advantage goes clearly to the marines. With perfect play a marine will hardly if ever let himself be surprised by a skulk, while even with perfect play a skulk would have to rely on his opponent's errors. So there has to be a middle ground.
<!--quoteo(post=1821133:date=Jan 3 2011, 12:37 PM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Jan 3 2011, 12:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821133"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Usually, if an event has a small chance to happen, then the effect would have to be magnified to make it more significant. In this case, the marine might have a 10% chance to stop moving completely for two second each second spent moving backwards.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Totally disagree with your logic here, sorry. People will adjust their play style to avoid even a very low-percentage nerf, so what you are suggesting is not at all plausible. But it was just a goofy idea anyway - its just like what people already feel like is happening, only more of an intentional gameplay element.
<!--quoteo(post=1821140:date=Jan 3 2011, 09:37 PM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Jan 3 2011, 09:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821140"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bacillus has addressed this already, but I'll add my two cents. If we take your approach and apply it on two teams with perfect skill, then the advantage goes clearly to the marines. With perfect play a marine will hardly if ever let himself be surprised by a skulk, while even with perfect play a skulk would have to rely on his opponent's errors. So there has to be a middle ground.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good thing we don't live in an ideal world, eh?
I think his point was, marines would have an obvious and definite advantage, and in order for it to be balanced, you assume the Aliens are better skilled.... which doesn't work.
My biggest issue is, it feels wrong... and taking all the technical and balance issues aside, I think many players will agree and greeatly dislike it. Or perhaps we will all get used to it again... as apparently NS1 had it, although I don't remember it being so significant.
You don't remember it being this significant because in NS1 no one ever just walked backwards, but instead strafed and jumped backwards to be faster. It became second nature.
<!--quoteo(post=1821203:date=Jan 3 2011, 05:22 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 3 2011, 05:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821203"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Good thing we don't live in an ideal world, eh?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The point is that as Marine skill tends to perfection and Alien skill also tends to perfection, Marines gain the advantage if their penalty to backwards movement speed is insufficient. *
In general, due to the nature of competition and its inherent need to arrive as close as possible to an optimal strategy, competitive players display this tendancy towards perfection. This situation doesn't only destroy the game at competitive level, but as this knowledge is passed down or simply when competitive players play on pubs, the public game can also be thrown into disarray.
Hence balance needs to be as solid as possible for a 'perfect' game scenario, so that it scales down equally for both teams for 'less than perfect' game scenarios.
We actually saw this time and time again in NS. For a long time we had 'MC first' as the only optimal strategy for Aliens (back when the Movement Chamber was the only method to teleport to a Hive). If anyone dropped another chamber, Marines would invariably win because the benefits of Alien speed coupled with the ability to reinforce at your 2nd Hive outweighed any benefits the other chambers offered. Even after this was remedied, the benefits of MCs to Aliens in the final version still generally outweigh both DCs and SCs at higher levels of play. This was and still is an inherent weakness in the mechanics of the game; in a 'perfect' game scenario not all Alien tech branches are equally desirable for the first chamber.
* This is because Marines attack and view from the front, so with a reasonable penalty to backwards movement if they see an Alien they have to sacrifice both visibility and damage output to keep themselves from receiving damage. I.e. they either have to stand and fight or run to buy time/escape/regroup with reinforcements. This, in games, is what's called an 'interesting decision'.
So you're saying that with perfect play, aliens rush directly at marines and try to win.
...
Fortunately for them, they are assisted in this by the crutch that is 40% marine backward speed, so this rushing behaviour is encouraged. A marine will try to backpedal (or just stand there) and fire, and will most likely lose. Or, a marine will turn around and run and the conflict is unresolved. The two players meet again. The scenario repeats itself. And again. And again.
<!--quoteo(post=1821460:date=Jan 4 2011, 06:50 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 4 2011, 06:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821460"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So you're saying that with perfect play, aliens rush directly at marines and try to win.
...
Fortunately for them, they are assisted in this by the crutch that is 40% marine backward speed. A marine will try to backpedal (or just stand there) and fire, and will most likely lose. Or, a marine will turn around and run and the conflict is unresolved. The two players meet again. The scenario repeats itself. And again. And again.
How is that not implied? A marine never gets surprised. Thus in a 1v1 confrontation the marine is always facing the alien. The alien must needs be facing the marine. The alien will then charge at the marine, and this behaviour is encouraged by the crutch that is 40% backwards moving speed, giving the alien an advantage at face-to-face confrontation.
It's not so much a straw man, than that the argument wasn't really thought through enough.
There's a difference between the scenario you just now explaine which seems decently representative, and the skulks bum rushing which is what you represented in the earlier post.
Now perhaps, to make the reasoning quip-proof we would need to assume the confrontation is already initiated. Trying to confuse the issue by broadening it is a non sequitur.
There isn't really a difference: Aliens try to catch marines (unawares, if possible*) and kill them. *but at "perfect play", not possible.
Here, there is also the assumption that, despite 'perfect play', marines may miss. If this were not the case, marines would always win as they have the advantage of range and can kill an alien before it reaches them. A strange definition of perfect play, but nevertheless...
With this idea of 'perfect play', we are under this scenario with the assumption that confrontation initiation is mutual, and that the single alien and single marine are facing each other. Like they're in a gentleman's duel or something. With 100% marine backward speed, an alien and a marine may trade blows roughly equally, but the advantage may go to the marine who has the benefit of range - ideally, the marine's best option is to fight while maintaining distance. In these conditions, a marine would always "stand and fight", and the advantage may or may not be to him. With 40% marine backward speed, an alien would be able to catch a marine very very easily, and the advantage goes to the alien who has the benefit of speed - ideally, the marine's best option is to turn around and flee, thus ending the confrontation with no result. In these conditions, a marine would always flee (even if only to gain enough distance to turn around again, restarting the confrontation), and the advantage is to the alien alone (who would likely still catch the marine, who would of course only flee again). It is either that: neither of these scenarios are good ways for the game to go, or these 'perfect play' scenarios have no value.
My argument is that the pillar of alien gameplay is that the alien initiates the confrontation, through the element of surprise - it isn't mutual. An alien thereby gains the advantage through a tactical decision, rather than the game handing the marine to them on a silver platter. My argument, is also that these 1v1 'perfect play' or even 'tending to perfect play' (as already defined) situations do not truly exist - that the above scenarios do indeed have no value.
<!--quoteo(post=1821596:date=Jan 5 2011, 04:28 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 5 2011, 04:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821596"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How is that not implied? A marine never gets surprised. Thus in a 1v1 confrontation the marine is always facing the alien. The alien must needs be facing the marine. The alien will then charge at the marine, and this behaviour is encouraged by the crutch that is 40% backwards moving speed, giving the alien an advantage at face-to-face confrontation.
It's not so much a straw man, than that the argument wasn't really thought through enough.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I think somewhere in there you actually make a good point, which is that the whole point of an RTS game is that there is no one 'perfect play', so my assertion is fundamentally flawed.
If we tried to figure out a 'perfect play' for NS it would go something like this:
- Commander discovers the Hive within ~2 seconds of round start; Marines move out to natural Res Nodes/build in MS - Aliens move to optimum choke points and take up optimum defensive positions - Marines re-adjust their distribution across the map: those closest to Hive take up offensive routing towards it; those furthest from Hive split between taking a more direct approach to the next 'safe' RT and holding the choke
Here's where the 'perfect play' falls flat:
- Marines know the optimum positions for Aliens, and have perfect aim. Since they cannot be surprised they wipe out Aliens instantly with zero to minimum damage per model. - Having put half the Alien team in the spawn queue, Marines quickly rush the Hive, taking up optimum spawncamping positions - With the help of perfect Ammo and Med drops from the perfect Comm, the perfect Marines kill the Hive
--- But the point many here are making is much more fundamental. To attack a Marine an Alien must get close. To attack an Alien a Marine can be at extreme range (the Pistol has perfect accuracy, the LMG has very high accuracy; to my knowledge neither suffers from considerable damage falloff over distance, unlike the Shotgun). So the only way an Alien can attack is if the Marine moves to the Alien or the Alien moves to the Marine.
If you break down the combat to a pseudo calculation (assuming both targets know eachother's location), you get something like:
Time for Marine to kill Skulk = Time to engage + (Skulk HP / LMG DPS) - Reload time
Time for Skulk to kill Marine = Time to engage + (Marine HP / Bite DPS) - Adren regen time
I'd estimate that in NS the DPS of both vanilla starting units is similar, but the time to engage is much shorter for the Marine unless the Marine is ambushed. In an engagement, if a Marine backtracks the Skulk's engagement time is constantly increasing, but the Marine has already engaged so is always doing damage (unless the Skulk finds cover). Compare the following examples of 100% reverse speed versus 50% reverse speed:
A Marine spots a Skulk 30 units away, and both begin attacking simultaneously. The Skulk runs at 10 units per second and the Marine is slower at 4 u/s. As they engage, the Marine backtracks at full speed while firing. We also assume both players are travelling in exactly the same direction (to simplify the model).
Total distance (D) is equal to the distance traveled by the Marine (DM) less the distance traveled by the Skulk (DS)
<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> D = DM - DS
To calculate the respective distances traveled by the Marine and Skulk, we need to use:
Distance = Speed x Time
DM = 4 x t DM = 4t
DS = 10 x t DS = 10t
Now, remember the Marine started 30 units away, so DM actually = 30 + 4t
That gives us:
D = DM - DS D = (30 + 4t) - 10t </span>
D = 30 - 6t
Back to the original problem, which is how long it takes the Skulk to get his first bite if the Marine travels at full speed in reverse:
For this to happen, the distance must be 0, so:
0 = 30 - 6t 6t = 30 t = 5 (it takes 5 seconds)
Now, what happens if the Marine can only move at 40% speed backwards?
<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> The Marine speed has changed:
DM = 4 x 0.4 x t DM = 1.6t (or 8t/5)
DS = 10 x t DS = 10t
Now, remember the Marine started 30 units away, so DM actually = 30 + 4t
The difference between 5 seconds and 3.57 seconds can mean life or death in NS. While these are just approximations, it still illustrates the point that reduced reverse speed for Marines is necessary. Just how necessary depends on if this speed is capped or if there are other ways to increase that reverse speed (as there were in NS).
This thread is full of horrible arguments and fuzzy logic. There's a reason marine backpedal <i>feels</i> slower than it did before; NS2 marines have the run ability (everyone is used to moving around quicker now) and skulks can ALWAYS leap at you to close the gap much faster than they could tier 1 in NS1. The point being skulks can get up in a marines face much quicker than they could in NS1 (tier 1 anyway) so the old mechanic is putting the marine at a larger disadvantage than before with slightly slower skulks. I also realize the issue with the fade being a slow walker, not having run (which maybe it should), and being in a walking stalemate with a backpedaling marine who gets plenty of chance to kill before the fade gets close enough. As long as the marine backpedal is a bit slower than the fade walk (which should probably be slightly faster to begin with) the fade can still blink up to and catch the marine unless of course the fade can't aim :]
If skulks lost tier 1 leap I would be more understanding of the backpedal speed, but as of the games current state I too am basically for the whole "backpedal slower than walking forward but definitely not as slow as right now".
Leap has a disadvantage in its linear movement, you can't dodge once a leap is initiated.
The idea is that Marines are suppose to advance in a orderly manner, with <b>teammates </b>... and if they wish to retreat from a unfavourable situation they can <i>elect</i> to turn and flee at max speed , or use a slower retreat while still being able to fire. The ability to move backwards at nearly the same speed as you advance while retaining the benefit of being able to continue keeping a target in your sights is too powerfull, especially versus a melee favouring opponent.
The idea is to compel more teamplay, and make solo play unfavourable.
Arguing a Skulk shouldn't be running after marines , and rather should be catching them by suprise is and as such backpedaling marines shouldn't pose a issue is invalid. Ambushes require you to choose the best spot to catch your opponent in unawares, ie your opponent should come to you. You can't really ambush if you are attacking the enemy where they are, you can ( if the enemy is not vigilant ) catch them offguard ( but would be the enemy being foolish, rather than the Alien being skilled ) but not ambush them. Aliens cant rely on always being able to cath the Marines en route to a waypoint, Aliens also need to attack a defended position ( and may not have Fades or Lerks available for the attack ).
In short : Slow back speed is there to force the Marine to choose between full speed retreat without being able to fire or slow retreat while firing.
You cant dodge once a leap is initiated - yes. But you know that before you leap. So you use leap because you know the marine wont have enough time to react or you use it as a dodge.
Do not leap at a prepared marine... You need to read movement and actions before they happen - and ofc you are going to die if you run around a corner moving/leaping down a hallway in a straight line. Zig-Zag, using cover or using leap to get on walls, on roofs, on/over obstacles or as escape mechanic is the way to go.
Teammates... what? suddently aliens dont have teammates? So aliens should be fine(win) if they solo rambo only? While marines need act like dreamland rts ai groups?
Rest of the post... If aliens didnt got leap, fly, blink to quickly shorten distances(and attack while using this mechanics)... your stuff would make sense. - but atm its...
Im getting angry because u make me wanna write l2p - playing aliens in ns is the EASIEST way of playing an fps... all you need to do is a little movement and aiming into a direction. Its so easy that even NS2HD (:P) managed to get 2x 5-kill(quintuple kill?) als skulk in ~5mins in one of his last videos. Really easy on rockdown marine start, but still...
In short : Slow back speed is there to force the Marine to choose between full speed retreat without being able to fire or slow retreat while firing. - True, but slow or timelapse-like is a difference.
edit: ah and you missed option 3, strafejump in circles while shooting like a crazy monkeyrambo (some ppl really think strafing is skill.. ya sure... its skill - like breathing is for blonds?)
<!--quoteo(post=1821709:date=Jan 6 2011, 01:09 AM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Jan 6 2011, 01:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821709"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The idea is that Marines are suppose to advance in a orderly manner, with <b>teammates </b>...
Arguing a Skulk shouldn't be running after marines , and rather should be catching them by suprise is and as such backpedaling marines shouldn't pose a issue is invalid.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Marines do not ever, in public play, advance in an orderly manner. THAT idea is invalid. On the other hand, lone skulks are given the <b>TOOLS</b> to ambush: speed, quietness, cover, wall climbing, leap, parasite, and maybe cloak in future iterations of the game. This is regardless of public play or not. Marines, on the other hand, are not given any equivalent tools to 'advance in an orderly manner'. That's something a seasoned, competitive team will do, through <u>prior arrangements</u> (training, voice communication, etc). If a marine isn't in an ambushable location, don't attempt to ambush him alone. It's not as if every location on the map is unambushable. (Pretty sure I just pissed an English professor off, somewhere.) If you can't change direction after leaping, then decide whether it's a good idea to leap or not.
<!--quoteo(post=1821694:date=Jan 5 2011, 11:47 PM:name=Lazer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lazer @ Jan 5 2011, 11:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821694"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This thread is full of horrible arguments and fuzzy logic. There's a reason marine backpedal <i>feels</i> slower than it did before; NS2 marines have the run ability (everyone is used to moving around quicker now) and skulks can ALWAYS leap at you to close the gap much faster than they could tier 1 in NS1. The point being skulks can get up in a marines face much quicker than they could in NS1 (tier 1 anyway) so the old mechanic is putting the marine at a larger disadvantage than before with slightly slower skulks. I also realize the issue with the fade being a slow walker, not having run (which maybe it should), and being in a walking stalemate with a backpedaling marine who gets plenty of chance to kill before the fade gets close enough. As long as the marine backpedal is a bit slower than the fade walk (which should probably be slightly faster to begin with) the fade can still blink up to and catch the marine unless of course the fade can't aim :]
If skulks lost tier 1 leap I would be more understanding of the backpedal speed, but as of the games current state I too am basically for the whole "backpedal slower than walking forward but definitely not as slow as right now".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is the most relevant point to this discussion: relative speeds and thus the ability to close the distance. Less than 100% is reasonable. 40% just feels gimped.
Also, consider just increasing a skulk's and a fade's mobility. Side-step dashing and such. That would better allow a skulk or a fade to zig-zag and dodge.
<!--quoteo(post=1821690:date=Jan 5 2011, 04:27 PM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Crispy @ Jan 5 2011, 04:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821690"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think somewhere in there you actually make a good point, which is that the whole point of an RTS game is that there is no one 'perfect play', so my assertion is fundamentally flawed.
If we tried to figure out a 'perfect play' for NS it would go something like this:
- Commander discovers the Hive within ~2 seconds of round start; Marines move out to natural Res Nodes/build in MS - Aliens move to optimum choke points and take up optimum defensive positions - Marines re-adjust their distribution across the map: those closest to Hive take up offensive routing towards it; those furthest from Hive split between taking a more direct approach to the next 'safe' RT and holding the choke
Here's where the 'perfect play' falls flat:
- Marines know the optimum positions for Aliens, and have perfect aim. Since they cannot be surprised they wipe out Aliens instantly with zero to minimum damage per model. - Having put half the Alien team in the spawn queue, Marines quickly rush the Hive, taking up optimum spawncamping positions - With the help of perfect Ammo and Med drops from the perfect Comm, the perfect Marines kill the Hive
--- But the point many here are making is much more fundamental. To attack a Marine an Alien must get close. To attack an Alien a Marine can be at extreme range (the Pistol has perfect accuracy, the LMG has very high accuracy; to my knowledge neither suffers from considerable damage falloff over distance, unlike the Shotgun). So the only way an Alien can attack is if the Marine moves to the Alien or the Alien moves to the Marine.
If you break down the combat to a pseudo calculation (assuming both targets know eachother's location), you get something like:
Time for Marine to kill Skulk = Time to engage + (Skulk HP / LMG DPS) - Reload time
Time for Skulk to kill Marine = Time to engage + (Marine HP / Bite DPS) - Adren regen time
I'd estimate that in NS the DPS of both vanilla starting units is similar, but the time to engage is much shorter for the Marine unless the Marine is ambushed. In an engagement, if a Marine backtracks the Skulk's engagement time is constantly increasing, but the Marine has already engaged so is always doing damage (unless the Skulk finds cover). Compare the following examples of 100% reverse speed versus 50% reverse speed:
A Marine spots a Skulk 30 units away, and both begin attacking simultaneously. The Skulk runs at 10 units per second and the Marine is slower at 4 u/s. As they engage, the Marine backtracks at full speed while firing. We also assume both players are travelling in exactly the same direction (to simplify the model).
Total distance (D) is equal to the distance traveled by the Marine (DM) less the distance traveled by the Skulk (DS)
<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> D = DM - DS
To calculate the respective distances traveled by the Marine and Skulk, we need to use:
Distance = Speed x Time
DM = 4 x t DM = 4t
DS = 10 x t DS = 10t
Now, remember the Marine started 30 units away, so DM actually = 30 + 4t
That gives us:
D = DM - DS D = (30 + 4t) - 10t </span>
D = 30 - 6t
Back to the original problem, which is how long it takes the Skulk to get his first bite if the Marine travels at full speed in reverse:
For this to happen, the distance must be 0, so:
0 = 30 - 6t 6t = 30 t = 5 (it takes 5 seconds)
Now, what happens if the Marine can only move at 40% speed backwards?
<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'> The Marine speed has changed:
DM = 4 x 0.4 x t DM = 1.6t (or 8t/5)
DS = 10 x t DS = 10t
Now, remember the Marine started 30 units away, so DM actually = 30 + 4t
The difference between 5 seconds and 3.57 seconds can mean life or death in NS. While these are just approximations, it still illustrates the point that reduced reverse speed for Marines is necessary. Just how necessary depends on if this speed is capped or if there are other ways to increase that reverse speed (as there were in NS).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
I was actually for slowing the backwards speed, a skulk has to be able to catch up with a backwalking marine, however having it at 40% is pretty much equivalent to removing the key completely. Give it a reasonable speed, enough to be a disadvantage, but not to cripple movement completely (70%?). After all, you guys said you're against movement impairment abilities back in the days.
Maybe its only because "Strobo-Skulk", that this is such a big deal for me... atm movment for marines is more important than shooting(without flamethrower), because alien (esp. skulk) movement is everything but smooth. (if you are the one trying to shoot it)
Still while i can live with the slow and bypass it - i dont think its good. (i wont repeat why, again.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The "strobo-skulk" impression is standing out to you because you're used to the smoother and more predictable movement patterns that emerged as you used air acceleration in the gldsrc engine. Without it the best way to dodge a marine is to move in a random pattern while staying bound to the ground. Something which is a pain to deal with as a marine, especially considering netcode issues, looks strange and makes the ability of the skulk progress decisively less well with the skill of the player (as opposed to the ability to track and aim while holding 's' as a marine).
Actually it was still the best way to dodge fire in NS1 but it wasn't that big of an issue. There was an element of player choice involved where you weighed the benifits of speed versus longevity. Removing the possibility of a player skill related speed increase throws off that balance. If dodging randomly is the only alternative to running straight forward everyone will do that always.
<!--quoteo(post=1820907:date=Jan 2 2011, 02:20 PM:name=Vic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vic @ Jan 2 2011, 02:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820907"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was actually for slowing the backwards speed, a skulk has to be able to catch up with a backwalking marine, however having it at 40% is pretty much equivalent to removing the key completely. Give it a reasonable speed, enough to be a disadvantage, but not to cripple movement completely (70%?). After all, you guys said you're against movement impairment abilities back in the days.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Moving and dodging as a marine needs to have a skill element so it scales well with the skill of the skulk to move and dodge. That's in my opinion the way to make melee vs ranged combat fun and balanced (relative to level of ability). A high backward moving speed would make pressing 's' while holding fire the end-all be-all of marine in battle behaviour. It is also a very fragile balance. If the backwards speed is too high even marginally then that will break the marine-skulk interaction. If it is lower than that dodging in another way would (ideally) always be the better option. It's not a very far fetched idea that moving backwards being a good option would a) become boring rather quickly and b) make it difficult to balance the game decently at both a high skill level and a public server or beginners level at the same time (assuming a skill based skulk movement option).
[Edit] Of course if we don't care for this level of depth then the mechanics of 's' + aim and random movement pattern dodging is great to level the playing field and balance the game around. But I doubt the game will have the same longevity as the first in the series.
This.
I can see a 70% ish, give or take with testing but 40% glues a marine to the floor. I know full speed backwards is too fast and a marine can maintain good distance even if they do get ambushed. I don't get the argument of it being unrealistic to move straight backwards and aim well given the current alternative of strafe jumping in a circle while shooting.
Also, use leap my skulky friends.
When both teams are playing well, a big share of the fights are something between the optimal approaches of each team; marine sees the target, but doesn't necessarily have enough DPS to kill the skulk(s) before it's too late.
In such close quarters half-ambushes the backpedal becomes almost certain extra lifetime and a couple of extra bullets. I just can't see any point in adding that extra margin in there.
Only because it feels more intuitive the player, as far as I can tell from the comments folks are making about it. You could just as easily say
<!--quoteo(post=1821129:date=Jan 3 2011, 10:33 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jan 3 2011, 10:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821129"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In such close quarters half-ambushes the nerfed backpedal becomes an almost certain kill and a couple less steps the human player can take before dying. I just can't see any point in adding that extra margin in there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Speaking of what is intuitive to players:
<!--quoteo(post=1820900:date=Jan 2 2011, 12:28 PM:name=Zuriki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zuriki @ Jan 2 2011, 12:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820900"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When I press S I feel like both of my legs broke and I'm actually just bumshuffling along the ground.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've always wanted to see a game that used clumsiness as a game mechanic, for example backpedaling soldiers would move at almost full speed and have a ~10% chance of tripping and falling, which would reduce their movement speed until they could get up. Apparently it already "feels" intuitively like this is happening instantly, but it might be an interesting mechanic if the chance of it happening increased over time. It would both make sense intuitively and also give a disencentive to overly rely on moving backwards.
I've always wanted to see a game that used clumsiness as a game mechanic, for example backpedaling soldiers would move at almost full speed and have a ~10% chance of tripping and falling, which would reduce their movement speed until they could get up. Apparently it already "feels" intuitively like this is happening instantly, but it might be an interesting mechanic if the chance of it happening increased over time. It would both make sense intuitively and also give a disencentive to overly rely on moving backwards.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It has been clear that the developers of NS want to limit the amount of random factors to highlight the importance of strategies, as in Real Time Strategy. For example, there are no "critical strikes" usually seen in other FPS in the form of head shots.
Movement penalties that occur at random are neither intuitive, nor is it a good method of balancing. Usually, if an event has a small chance to happen, then the effect would have to be magnified to make it more significant. In this case, the marine might have a 10% chance to stop moving completely for two second each second spent moving backwards. That can be very frustrating for the marine who steps back and suddenly finding himself unable to move.
<!--quoteo(post=1821129:date=Jan 3 2011, 09:33 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jan 3 2011, 09:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821129"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In such close quarters half-ambushes the backpedal becomes almost certain extra lifetime and a couple of extra bullets. I just can't see any point in adding that extra margin in there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I share that same sentiment. A Skulk/Fade that got next to a marine probably took quite a bit of effort to get there. I definitely would not want to see that said marine completely turn the table on the Skulk by running away backwards and blasting it to pieces.
Bacillus has addressed this already, but I'll add my two cents. If we take your approach and apply it on two teams with perfect skill, then the advantage goes clearly to the marines. With perfect play a marine will hardly if ever let himself be surprised by a skulk, while even with perfect play a skulk would have to rely on his opponent's errors. So there has to be a middle ground.
Totally disagree with your logic here, sorry. People will adjust their play style to avoid even a very low-percentage nerf, so what you are suggesting is not at all plausible. But it was just a goofy idea anyway - its just like what people already feel like is happening, only more of an intentional gameplay element.
Good thing we don't live in an ideal world, eh?
My biggest issue is, it feels wrong... and taking all the technical and balance issues aside, I think many players will agree and greeatly dislike it. Or perhaps we will all get used to it again... as apparently NS1 had it, although I don't remember it being so significant.
In general, due to the nature of competition and its inherent need to arrive as close as possible to an optimal strategy, competitive players display this tendancy towards perfection. This situation doesn't only destroy the game at competitive level, but as this knowledge is passed down or simply when competitive players play on pubs, the public game can also be thrown into disarray.
Hence balance needs to be as solid as possible for a 'perfect' game scenario, so that it scales down equally for both teams for 'less than perfect' game scenarios.
We actually saw this time and time again in NS. For a long time we had 'MC first' as the only optimal strategy for Aliens (back when the Movement Chamber was the only method to teleport to a Hive). If anyone dropped another chamber, Marines would invariably win because the benefits of Alien speed coupled with the ability to reinforce at your 2nd Hive outweighed any benefits the other chambers offered. Even after this was remedied, the benefits of MCs to Aliens in the final version still generally outweigh both DCs and SCs at higher levels of play. This was and still is an inherent weakness in the mechanics of the game; in a 'perfect' game scenario not all Alien tech branches are equally desirable for the first chamber.
* This is because Marines attack and view from the front, so with a reasonable penalty to backwards movement if they see an Alien they have to sacrifice both visibility and damage output to keep themselves from receiving damage. I.e. they either have to stand and fight or run to buy time/escape/regroup with reinforcements. This, in games, is what's called an 'interesting decision'.
<img src="http://ameba.lpt.fi/~kallleo/roskat/ns2_segway2.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
...
Fortunately for them, they are assisted in this by the crutch that is 40% marine backward speed, so this rushing behaviour is encouraged. A marine will try to backpedal (or just stand there) and fire, and will most likely lose. Or, a marine will turn around and run and the conflict is unresolved. The two players meet again. The scenario repeats itself. And again. And again.
@uffo's post: Pimp.
...
Fortunately for them, they are assisted in this by the crutch that is 40% marine backward speed. A marine will try to backpedal (or just stand there) and fire, and will most likely lose. Or, a marine will turn around and run and the conflict is unresolved. The two players meet again. The scenario repeats itself. And again. And again.
@uffo's post: Pimp.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is just ignorant.
<!--quoteo(post=1821460:date=Jan 4 2011, 06:50 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 4 2011, 06:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821460"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So you're saying that with perfect play, aliens rush directly at marines and try to win.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
is a straw man.
A marine never gets surprised. Thus in a 1v1 confrontation the marine is always facing the alien. The alien must needs be facing the marine. The alien will then charge at the marine, and this behaviour is encouraged by the crutch that is 40% backwards moving speed, giving the alien an advantage at face-to-face confrontation.
It's not so much a straw man, than that the argument wasn't really thought through enough.
Now perhaps, to make the reasoning quip-proof we would need to assume the confrontation is already initiated. Trying to confuse the issue by broadening it is a non sequitur.
*but at "perfect play", not possible.
Here, there is also the assumption that, despite 'perfect play', marines may miss. If this were not the case, marines would always win as they have the advantage of range and can kill an alien before it reaches them. A strange definition of perfect play, but nevertheless...
With this idea of 'perfect play', we are under this scenario with the assumption that confrontation initiation is mutual, and that the single alien and single marine are facing each other. Like they're in a gentleman's duel or something.
With 100% marine backward speed, an alien and a marine may trade blows roughly equally, but the advantage may go to the marine who has the benefit of range - ideally, the marine's best option is to fight while maintaining distance. In these conditions, a marine would always "stand and fight", and the advantage may or may not be to him.
With 40% marine backward speed, an alien would be able to catch a marine very very easily, and the advantage goes to the alien who has the benefit of speed - ideally, the marine's best option is to turn around and flee, thus ending the confrontation with no result. In these conditions, a marine would always flee (even if only to gain enough distance to turn around again, restarting the confrontation), and the advantage is to the alien alone (who would likely still catch the marine, who would of course only flee again).
It is either that: neither of these scenarios are good ways for the game to go, or these 'perfect play' scenarios have no value.
My argument is that the pillar of alien gameplay is that the alien initiates the confrontation, through the element of surprise - it isn't mutual. An alien thereby gains the advantage through a tactical decision, rather than the game handing the marine to them on a silver platter.
My argument, is also that these 1v1 'perfect play' or even 'tending to perfect play' (as already defined) situations do not truly exist - that the above scenarios do indeed have no value.
A marine never gets surprised. Thus in a 1v1 confrontation the marine is always facing the alien. The alien must needs be facing the marine. The alien will then charge at the marine, and this behaviour is encouraged by the crutch that is 40% backwards moving speed, giving the alien an advantage at face-to-face confrontation.
It's not so much a straw man, than that the argument wasn't really thought through enough.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I think somewhere in there you actually make a good point, which is that the whole point of an RTS game is that there is no one 'perfect play', so my assertion is fundamentally flawed.
If we tried to figure out a 'perfect play' for NS it would go something like this:
- Commander discovers the Hive within ~2 seconds of round start; Marines move out to natural Res Nodes/build in MS
- Aliens move to optimum choke points and take up optimum defensive positions
- Marines re-adjust their distribution across the map: those closest to Hive take up offensive routing towards it; those furthest from Hive split between taking a more direct approach to the next 'safe' RT and holding the choke
Here's where the 'perfect play' falls flat:
- Marines know the optimum positions for Aliens, and have perfect aim. Since they cannot be surprised they wipe out Aliens instantly with zero to minimum damage per model.
- Having put half the Alien team in the spawn queue, Marines quickly rush the Hive, taking up optimum spawncamping positions
- With the help of perfect Ammo and Med drops from the perfect Comm, the perfect Marines kill the Hive
---
But the point many here are making is much more fundamental. To attack a Marine an Alien must get close. To attack an Alien a Marine can be at extreme range (the Pistol has perfect accuracy, the LMG has very high accuracy; to my knowledge neither suffers from considerable damage falloff over distance, unlike the Shotgun). So the only way an Alien can attack is if the Marine moves to the Alien or the Alien moves to the Marine.
If you break down the combat to a pseudo calculation (assuming both targets know eachother's location), you get something like:
Time for Marine to kill Skulk = Time to engage + (Skulk HP / LMG DPS) - Reload time
Time for Skulk to kill Marine = Time to engage + (Marine HP / Bite DPS) - Adren regen time
I'd estimate that in NS the DPS of both vanilla starting units is similar, but the time to engage is much shorter for the Marine unless the Marine is ambushed. In an engagement, if a Marine backtracks the Skulk's engagement time is constantly increasing, but the Marine has already engaged so is always doing damage (unless the Skulk finds cover). Compare the following examples of 100% reverse speed versus 50% reverse speed:
A Marine spots a Skulk 30 units away, and both begin attacking simultaneously. The Skulk runs at 10 units per second and the Marine is slower at 4 u/s. As they engage, the Marine backtracks at full speed while firing. We also assume both players are travelling in exactly the same direction (to simplify the model).
Total distance (D) is equal to the distance traveled by the Marine (DM) less the distance traveled by the Skulk (DS)
<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>
D = DM - DS
To calculate the respective distances traveled by the Marine and Skulk, we need to use:
Distance = Speed x Time
DM = 4 x t
DM = 4t
DS = 10 x t
DS = 10t
Now, remember the Marine started 30 units away, so DM actually = 30 + 4t
That gives us:
D = DM - DS
D = (30 + 4t) - 10t
</span>
D = 30 - 6t
Back to the original problem, which is how long it takes the Skulk to get his first bite if the Marine travels at full speed in reverse:
For this to happen, the distance must be 0, so:
0 = 30 - 6t
6t = 30
t = 5 (it takes 5 seconds)
Now, what happens if the Marine can only move at 40% speed backwards?
<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>
The Marine speed has changed:
DM = 4 x 0.4 x t
DM = 1.6t (or 8t/5)
DS = 10 x t
DS = 10t
Now, remember the Marine started 30 units away, so DM actually = 30 + 4t
That gives us:
D = DM - DS
D = (30 + 1.6t) - 10t
</span>
D = 30 - 8.4t
Again, taking the distance as 0:
0 = 30 - 8.4t
8.4t = 30
t = 3.57... (it takes ~3.57 seconds)
The difference between 5 seconds and 3.57 seconds can mean life or death in NS. While these are just approximations, it still illustrates the point that reduced reverse speed for Marines is necessary. Just how necessary depends on if this speed is capped or if there are other ways to increase that reverse speed (as there were in NS).
If skulks lost tier 1 leap I would be more understanding of the backpedal speed, but as of the games current state I too am basically for the whole "backpedal slower than walking forward but definitely not as slow as right now".
The idea is that Marines are suppose to advance in a orderly manner, with <b>teammates </b>... and if they wish to retreat from a unfavourable situation they can <i>elect</i> to turn and flee at max speed , or use a slower retreat while still being able to fire.
The ability to move backwards at nearly the same speed as you advance while retaining the benefit of being able to continue keeping a target in your sights is too powerfull, especially versus a melee favouring opponent.
The idea is to compel more teamplay, and make solo play unfavourable.
Arguing a Skulk shouldn't be running after marines , and rather should be catching them by suprise is and as such backpedaling marines shouldn't pose a issue is invalid.
Ambushes require you to choose the best spot to catch your opponent in unawares, ie your opponent should come to you.
You can't really ambush if you are attacking the enemy where they are, you can ( if the enemy is not vigilant ) catch them offguard ( but would be the enemy being foolish, rather than the Alien being skilled ) but not ambush them.
Aliens cant rely on always being able to cath the Marines en route to a waypoint, Aliens also need to attack a defended position ( and may not have Fades or Lerks available for the attack ).
In short : Slow back speed is there to force the Marine to choose between full speed retreat without being able to fire or slow retreat while firing.
Do not leap at a prepared marine... You need to read movement and actions before they happen - and ofc you are going to die if you run around a corner moving/leaping down a hallway in a straight line. Zig-Zag, using cover or using leap to get on walls, on roofs, on/over obstacles or as escape mechanic is the way to go.
Teammates...
what? suddently aliens dont have teammates? So aliens should be fine(win) if they solo rambo only? While marines need act like dreamland rts ai groups?
Rest of the post...
If aliens didnt got leap, fly, blink to quickly shorten distances(and attack while using this mechanics)... your stuff would make sense. - but atm its...
Im getting angry because u make me wanna write l2p - playing aliens in ns is the EASIEST way of playing an fps... all you need to do is a little movement and aiming into a direction. Its so easy that even NS2HD (:P) managed to get 2x 5-kill(quintuple kill?) als skulk in ~5mins in one of his last videos.
Really easy on rockdown marine start, but still...
In short : Slow back speed is there to force the Marine to choose between full speed retreat without being able to fire or slow retreat while firing. - True, but slow or timelapse-like is a difference.
edit: ah and you missed option 3, strafejump in circles while shooting like a crazy monkeyrambo
(some ppl really think strafing is skill.. ya sure... its skill - like breathing is for blonds?)
Arguing a Skulk shouldn't be running after marines , and rather should be catching them by suprise is and as such backpedaling marines shouldn't pose a issue is invalid.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines do not ever, in public play, advance in an orderly manner. THAT idea is invalid.
On the other hand, lone skulks are given the <b>TOOLS</b> to ambush: speed, quietness, cover, wall climbing, leap, parasite, and maybe cloak in future iterations of the game. This is regardless of public play or not.
Marines, on the other hand, are not given any equivalent tools to 'advance in an orderly manner'. That's something a seasoned, competitive team will do, through <u>prior arrangements</u> (training, voice communication, etc).
If a marine isn't in an ambushable location, don't attempt to ambush him alone. It's not as if every location on the map is unambushable. (Pretty sure I just pissed an English professor off, somewhere.)
If you can't change direction after leaping, then decide whether it's a good idea to leap or not.
<!--quoteo(post=1821694:date=Jan 5 2011, 11:47 PM:name=Lazer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lazer @ Jan 5 2011, 11:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821694"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This thread is full of horrible arguments and fuzzy logic. There's a reason marine backpedal <i>feels</i> slower than it did before; NS2 marines have the run ability (everyone is used to moving around quicker now) and skulks can ALWAYS leap at you to close the gap much faster than they could tier 1 in NS1. The point being skulks can get up in a marines face much quicker than they could in NS1 (tier 1 anyway) so the old mechanic is putting the marine at a larger disadvantage than before with slightly slower skulks. I also realize the issue with the fade being a slow walker, not having run (which maybe it should), and being in a walking stalemate with a backpedaling marine who gets plenty of chance to kill before the fade gets close enough. As long as the marine backpedal is a bit slower than the fade walk (which should probably be slightly faster to begin with) the fade can still blink up to and catch the marine unless of course the fade can't aim :]
If skulks lost tier 1 leap I would be more understanding of the backpedal speed, but as of the games current state I too am basically for the whole "backpedal slower than walking forward but definitely not as slow as right now".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the most relevant point to this discussion: relative speeds and thus the ability to close the distance. Less than 100% is reasonable. 40% just feels gimped.
Also, consider just increasing a skulk's and a fade's mobility. Side-step dashing and such. That would better allow a skulk or a fade to zig-zag and dodge.
If we tried to figure out a 'perfect play' for NS it would go something like this:
- Commander discovers the Hive within ~2 seconds of round start; Marines move out to natural Res Nodes/build in MS
- Aliens move to optimum choke points and take up optimum defensive positions
- Marines re-adjust their distribution across the map: those closest to Hive take up offensive routing towards it; those furthest from Hive split between taking a more direct approach to the next 'safe' RT and holding the choke
Here's where the 'perfect play' falls flat:
- Marines know the optimum positions for Aliens, and have perfect aim. Since they cannot be surprised they wipe out Aliens instantly with zero to minimum damage per model.
- Having put half the Alien team in the spawn queue, Marines quickly rush the Hive, taking up optimum spawncamping positions
- With the help of perfect Ammo and Med drops from the perfect Comm, the perfect Marines kill the Hive
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But the point many here are making is much more fundamental. To attack a Marine an Alien must get close. To attack an Alien a Marine can be at extreme range (the Pistol has perfect accuracy, the LMG has very high accuracy; to my knowledge neither suffers from considerable damage falloff over distance, unlike the Shotgun). So the only way an Alien can attack is if the Marine moves to the Alien or the Alien moves to the Marine.
If you break down the combat to a pseudo calculation (assuming both targets know eachother's location), you get something like:
Time for Marine to kill Skulk = Time to engage + (Skulk HP / LMG DPS) - Reload time
Time for Skulk to kill Marine = Time to engage + (Marine HP / Bite DPS) - Adren regen time
I'd estimate that in NS the DPS of both vanilla starting units is similar, but the time to engage is much shorter for the Marine unless the Marine is ambushed. In an engagement, if a Marine backtracks the Skulk's engagement time is constantly increasing, but the Marine has already engaged so is always doing damage (unless the Skulk finds cover). Compare the following examples of 100% reverse speed versus 50% reverse speed:
A Marine spots a Skulk 30 units away, and both begin attacking simultaneously. The Skulk runs at 10 units per second and the Marine is slower at 4 u/s. As they engage, the Marine backtracks at full speed while firing. We also assume both players are travelling in exactly the same direction (to simplify the model).
Total distance (D) is equal to the distance traveled by the Marine (DM) less the distance traveled by the Skulk (DS)
<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>
D = DM - DS
To calculate the respective distances traveled by the Marine and Skulk, we need to use:
Distance = Speed x Time
DM = 4 x t
DM = 4t
DS = 10 x t
DS = 10t
Now, remember the Marine started 30 units away, so DM actually = 30 + 4t
That gives us:
D = DM - DS
D = (30 + 4t) - 10t
</span>
D = 30 - 6t
Back to the original problem, which is how long it takes the Skulk to get his first bite if the Marine travels at full speed in reverse:
For this to happen, the distance must be 0, so:
0 = 30 - 6t
6t = 30
t = 5 (it takes 5 seconds)
Now, what happens if the Marine can only move at 40% speed backwards?
<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>
The Marine speed has changed:
DM = 4 x 0.4 x t
DM = 1.6t (or 8t/5)
DS = 10 x t
DS = 10t
Now, remember the Marine started 30 units away, so DM actually = 30 + 4t
That gives us:
D = DM - DS
D = (30 + 1.6t) - 10t
</span>
D = 30 - 8.4t
Again, taking the distance as 0:
0 = 30 - 8.4t
8.4t = 30
t = 3.57... (it takes ~3.57 seconds)
The difference between 5 seconds and 3.57 seconds can mean life or death in NS. While these are just approximations, it still illustrates the point that reduced reverse speed for Marines is necessary. Just how necessary depends on if this speed is capped or if there are other ways to increase that reverse speed (as there were in NS).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
tl;dr