Armory and Arms lab really have to be seperate
JaMrulezass
Join Date: 2010-04-10 Member: 71296Members, WC 2013 - Silver
Join Date: 2010-04-10 Member: 71296Members, WC 2013 - Silver
Comments
So I say bring back the arms lab and also require that upgrades require the host structure to be active. So taking out the arms lab would remove the marines upgrades. Taking out all whips/crags would stop the alien upgrades. Taking out all the advanced armories would require researching a new one before advanced weapons could be purchased again.
This would add a little more strategy to the game.
Why?
In NS2, the only two viable options are the power node or the IPs. Taking out the armory is kind of pointless, since it doesn't really hinder the marines that much (they don't lose upgrades and it costs 10 carbon to rebuild). In the future we will also have a proto lab to choose from, which will be nice, but it's pretty limited right now. Unless I'm mistaken, there is no way for an alien to tell if the armory is being upgraded (in NS1 it would shake).
Anyway, there is much more that can be done to improve things. Linking upgrades to physical structures and putting the marine upgrades to a arms lab would be a good first step.
I think this is a bug rather than a feature, though I could be wrong.
<!--quoteo(post=1829250:date=Feb 2 2011, 11:49 PM:name=GeneralBowser)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GeneralBowser @ Feb 2 2011, 11:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1829250"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 is NOT NS1. Its a NEW game so stop trying to make everything what it was. If I wanted to play NS1 I would play NS1, I want a NEW game experience!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i'm really tired of reading comments from people like you.
if all you want is game titled natural-selection 2, in the end I promise you, and everyone here will hate this game. YOU need to play ns1, and UNDERSTAND why we should bring ns1 values into ns2. I'm all for new technology, but do not sacrifice the quality of the game.
...the point is that the current mechanic appears broken and the way it worked in NS1 makes more sense. It doesn't have to be the same and no one is saying that but the way it works now is causing issues.
Just because this isn't NS1 doesn't mean everything has to change you clearly misunderstand the intentions of this game.
stop posting this, throwing out everything that made ns1 good just for the sake of change is ridiculous and you guys should really figure that out.
i'm really tired of reading comments from people like you.
if all you want is game titled natural-selection 2, in the end I promise you, and everyone here will hate this game. YOU need to play ns1, and UNDERSTAND why we should bring ns1 values into ns2. I'm all for new technology, but do not sacrifice the quality of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed.
Although I don't necessarily agree with either of you fully, he was not stating that everything from ns1 should be thrown out. He was merely saying not everything from ns1 should be thrown in. I don't understand how several of you have misinterpreted this so badly.
In NS2, the only two viable options are the power node or the IPs. Taking out the armory is kind of pointless, since it doesn't really hinder the marines that much (they don't lose upgrades and it costs 10 carbon to rebuild). In the future we will also have a proto lab to choose from, which will be nice, but it's pretty limited right now. Unless I'm mistaken, there is no way for an alien to tell if the armory is being upgraded (in NS1 it would shake).
Anyway, there is much more that can be done to improve things. Linking upgrades to physical structures and putting the marine upgrades to a arms lab would be a good first step.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^This
Even if the armory and arms lab aren't separated, there needs to be some way of hitting the enemy team hard in their tech. Right now the only way to beat them is through brute force, or by snipping a power node (DI in the future).
<!--quoteo(post=1829250:date=Feb 2 2011, 05:49 PM:name=GeneralBowser)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GeneralBowser @ Feb 2 2011, 05:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1829250"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 is NOT NS1. Its a NEW game so stop trying to make <b>everything</b> what it was. If I wanted to play NS1 I would play NS1, I want a NEW game experience!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps a rise in the base price of the Armory should be in order, then?
In NS2, the only two viable options are the power node or the IPs. Taking out the armory is kind of pointless, since it doesn't really hinder the marines that much (they don't lose upgrades and it costs 10 carbon to rebuild). In the future we will also have a proto lab to choose from, which will be nice, but it's pretty limited right now. Unless I'm mistaken, there is no way for an alien to tell if the armory is being upgraded (in NS1 it would shake).
Anyway, there is much more that can be done to improve things. Linking upgrades to physical structures and putting the marine upgrades to a arms lab would be a good first step.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well said, agree!
upgrades must be tied to building, if killed, marines will lose upgrades. For example killing armory, or second cc - they should lose upgrades/researched tech, it was the whole point in strategical attacks which made ns1 fun.
current game play feels dry. Also Aliens starting to be an exactly as marines with no difference in commanding, this isn't good at all. Both teams feel the same way. (commanding)
better class roles must be added.
i'm really tired of reading comments from people like you.
if all you want is game titled natural-selection 2, in the end I promise you, and everyone here will hate this game. YOU need to play ns1, and UNDERSTAND why we should bring ns1 values into ns2. I'm all for new technology, but do not sacrifice the quality of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with GeneralBrowsers sentiment. All features included in NS2 need to be evaluated based on how they will work in NS2, not whether they worked or were popular in NS1. UWE has already made significant design changes (alien commander, MACs/drifters, DI) that invalidate NS1 gameplay features.
However, I do agree with the idea that tech availability (after being researched) should be tied to that structure being built and powered. Thats a pretty standard feature of many RTS games (i.e. you need to have a barracks to build/research marines/marine upgrades in SC2), that would work well in NS2 as a balancing feature.
Tier upgrades should be tied to the number of CC/hives, not just to the upgrade level of a CC/hive. There's a huge gameplay difference between the two.
Some reasons:
1. Armslabs cost res which means even MORE time+res before armor 1 + damage 1 can be researched which hurts the early game.
2. Currently when the armory is researching any upgrade, others are prevented so having an armslab will "over-power" the marines because research could be completed asynchronously... i.e. weapon-mod+flamethrower+gl while armor-2+weapon-2 are being simultaneously researched on two separate armslab.
3. Yet another structure that the marine commander can never have too many of = increased structure-induced lag for the many armslabs which will be scattered throughout the map.
4. The marine team can be shutdown by a dead powernode or dead ip.
Hmm it would be nice if the aliens had an armslab that i can just solo-kill to disable fade, lerk, gorge, and armor+damage upgrades... hmm that would be cool... Ya devs give the aliens the armslab vulnerability! >:D
Btw NS2 is not ns1, and for everyone who currently embraces NS2, this thread feels like a standard "make NS1+Better-Graphics" troll thread.
How can it be a balance problem? As it stands both teams keep their upgrades, if you tie marine upgrades to the arms lab and alien upgrades to a whip/crag, all aliens have to do is stuff a whip and a crag in a vent somewhere and they get unkillable upgrades while marines lose all theirs if you kill one base structure.
That to me seems rather more unbalanced.
<!--quoteo(post=1829236:date=Feb 2 2011, 09:40 PM:name=Quovatis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Quovatis @ Feb 2 2011, 09:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1829236"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In NS1 you had lots of options for what to take out in an alien base rush: Take out the arms lab to give one-hit kills on marines. Take out the advanced armory to stop HMGs. Take out the proto lab to stop JPs. Taking out the obs, IP, or phase gate also had good reasons for it.
In NS2, the only two viable options are the power node or the IPs. Taking out the armory is kind of pointless, since it doesn't really hinder the marines that much (they don't lose upgrades and it costs 10 carbon to rebuild). In the future we will also have a proto lab to choose from, which will be nice, but it's pretty limited right now. Unless I'm mistaken, there is no way for an alien to tell if the armory is being upgraded (in NS1 it would shake).
Anyway, there is much more that can be done to improve things. Linking upgrades to physical structures and putting the marine upgrades to a arms lab would be a good first step.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Does the choice really matter? Either way you're going to keep taking out base structures until you kill the base, the preise order you go in is sort of irrelevant surely. It doesn't add to the experience to do it in a particular order, you're still killing buildings and marines until there aren't any more of them.
That to me seems rather more unbalanced.
Does the choice really matter? Either way you're going to keep taking out base structures until you kill the base, the preise order you go in is sort of irrelevant surely. It doesn't add to the experience to do it in a particular order, you're still killing buildings and marines until there aren't any more of them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is why it should be linked to the tech-point. If you hold the tech-point then you unlock that tiers upgrades/weapons, if you lose the tech-point then you lose that tiers upgrades/weapons. There's currently no real incentive to hold a room after you gotten your upgrades. Status quo is producing these long stalemates even if one side has the entire map under their control.
Yes it does matter. In most cases you're not going to be able to take out the entire base. You'll have enough time to take out one structure before marines respond. Which one you pick and how many choices you have makes a huge difference.
I can understand the need to have a valuable target to destroy, but you have those, I do not understand the need to have the arms lab specifically.
Just take out the infantry portals , the extractor, a sentry, or the power node, all of those will make the marines vulnerable/cost them money.
<!--quoteo(post=1829301:date=Feb 3 2011, 01:43 AM:name=shiv)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shiv @ Feb 3 2011, 01:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1829301"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Which is why it should be linked to the tech-point. If you hold the tech-point then you unlock that tiers upgrades/weapons, if you lose the tech-point then you lose that tiers upgrades/weapons. There's currently no real incentive to hold a room after you gotten your upgrades. Status quo is producing these long stalemates even if one side has the entire map under their control.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the lack of siege equipment is producing the stalemates. Neither side has tier 3 weaponry available, if you can afford tier 3 and your opponent is stuck with tier 1, you're going to win. Once you put the onos, whip movement and bombardment, MASCs, the othe two alien structures and their upgrades, and heavy armor/jetpacks into the game, you won't have stalemates any more.
You really don't need to worry about armor and firepower when you start bringing out the hard counters. At the moment you're stuck with early T2 tech, which isn't ever going to be much better than T1 tech, late T3 with all the bells and whistles is going to strain the marine res flow even further, marine commanders have difficulty running a base with the current res flow, add in even more costs and it's going to get difficult, especially if you don't have good map control and income. Aliens could do with a bit of a structue cost increase especially for the incredibly useful hives, but I think they will find a similar problem when they get another two structures to build and upgrade for powers, and start using whips offensively.
This means more strategic options. Having a skulk go in and getting rid of the marine upgrades during a critical offensive push can spell victory or defeat.
This means more strategic options. Having a skulk go in and getting rid of the marine upgrades during a critical offensive push can spell victory or defeat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you mean you can't just send a skulk to cripple the entire marine war effort.
Well gee that's clearly a problem. I mean without that the game might require a group effort or something.
Requiring a concerted and collective push to make headway is not a problem, it's progress.