jumpy marines is really annoying... but i don't know if its the right time to fix it... games are bit more stable.. but i still feel like it might be a bit warpy or not working quite right just yet.
<!--quoteo(post=1835653:date=Mar 2 2011, 07:49 PM:name=mutare)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mutare @ Mar 2 2011, 07:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835653"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aaargh. I cant play it. Did not get my key... no answer via Paypal... but it is payed! I want it so bad!
Sry for my english, greetings from germany.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wrong thread mate, but I hope you get it soon. Try this if you didn't already: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/retrieve" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/retrieve</a>
I find marines vs skulks kinda balanced, don't know if Im getting an advantage from slow servers or whatnot. The nightvision contrast really gives an edge in spin-jump combat and the hitreg seems to be in my favor with lucky bites going in. Shotgun marines with good aim is a nuisance, but it doesnt break it for me - running leap is probably as annoying with its startling and superior movement, although not as efficient as a point-shoot-KO gun.
Rockdown's small corridors with tons of corners is nice for the skulk. For long stretches (long fights in tram tunnels fx) you should probably go lerk - "don't bring a knife to a gunfight"
<!--quoteo(post=1835656:date=Mar 2 2011, 08:18 PM:name=mokkat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mokkat @ Mar 2 2011, 08:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835656"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->wrong thread mate, but I hope you get it soon. Try this if you didn't already: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/retrieve" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/retrieve</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, ive tried this already. I am sorry, but from what i see and read i get more and more frustrated ...
About the "Jumping-Marine-Problem" ive read about... Nerf-Jumping is a great way to eliminate the problem, i hate bunnyhoppers :-P.
<!--quoteo(post=1835639:date=Mar 2 2011, 03:34 PM:name=Lazer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lazer @ Mar 2 2011, 03:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835639"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(I mean I can already walk faster than it can backwards)
Lets fix the skulk not continue to cripple the marine...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I doubt you could take three bites from a Skulk before dying though.
The game should be based on balance, not realism. If the best way to improve the marine/skulk balance is to nerf many consecutive jumps, I'm all for it. Of course, different options should be looked in to, but when the main issue is a marine jumping around like the energiser bunny, it only seems obvious to nerf the jumping, rather than come up with some roundabout fix.
It's like the melee in L4D. A few smacks at full speed, and then slowly increasing cool down until it becomes useless and you have to wait for it to "recharge".
reporting a bug: fought a marine 1 on 1 with his commander dropping med packs on him - two of the medpacks stuck in midair, and blocked my movement, like a tiny building I couldn't move through.
Great ideas guys lets give marines energy just like how the aliens have it and make run and jump both use energy! If skulks start dominating again we'll nerf them again too. If after that marines start dominating they can receive another nerf!
2 teams of nerfed players is no fun. If we just let skulks run slightly faster or mini-leap cover a few more feet we could just as easily be at a solution. If this makes skulks OP then maybe there already was balance. Clearly balance is important over realism, but it should not always be met by nerfing the more powerful side of the debate (which seems to be the outcome of almost every recent balance decision).
maybe i didn't try hard enough.. played on 2 servers....well, tried to play, actually, but this patch sux
- tab didn't work
- lagged like hell
with a development speed like this, <!--coloro:#ffff00--><span style="color:#ffff00"><!--/coloro-->i see the December 2011 release date in danger :-><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=1835676:date=Mar 2 2011, 10:22 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Mar 2 2011, 10:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835676"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tab didn't work for me either, <b>on a specific server.</b> As soon as I changed it worked fine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hmm, I had this on 2 different servers... well didn't try a third one, though....
as i said, i got pis_sed off and left to voice my rage on the forum ;-)
I also noticed the Marines are able to go LVL 2 without a second command center built... again. Also confim the mid-air med pack blocking marine movement. Both were on Rockdown.
<!--quoteo(post=1835673:date=Mar 2 2011, 08:57 PM:name=Lazer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lazer @ Mar 2 2011, 08:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835673"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Great ideas guys lets give marines energy just like how the aliens have it and make run and jump both use energy! If skulks start dominating again we'll nerf them again too. If after that marines start dominating they can receive another nerf!
2 teams of nerfed players is no fun. If we just let skulks run slightly faster or mini-leap cover a few more feet we could just as easily be at a solution. If this makes skulks OP then maybe there already was balance. Clearly balance is important over realism, but it should not always be met by nerfing the more powerful side of the debate (which seems to be the outcome of almost every recent balance decision).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is no such thing as mini-leap. There is leap and running/moving leap. Personally, I think they should just disable un-upgraded leap from doing anything at all when activated while moving. It would stop a lot of people saying it is broken for them etc. I don't really see the point in it doing that ###### little hop forward. It's just a waste of energy and leads to confusion.
As for making the movement speed faster, while I do agree that should be done, it is going to do nothing to fix the melee issue of marines being able to hop around like crazy (even <i>over</i> the Skulk).
To be honest, specifics like running speed, marine sprint speed, damage attributes etc will be getting tweaked right up until the end, so there is little point in making any values dead set. Marines jumping around like they are on speed is going to be an issue until it is fixed though, and isn't something that you simply change the value of to tweak. It requires a mechanic to fix it, and it should be done soon to offer the most testing possible.
<!--quoteo(post=1835681:date=Mar 2 2011, 04:44 PM:name=Skiddywinks)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skiddywinks @ Mar 2 2011, 04:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835681"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is no such thing as mini-leap. There is leap and running/moving leap. Personally, I think they should just disable un-upgraded leap from doing anything at all when activated while moving. It would stop a lot of people saying it is broken for them etc. I don't really see the point in it doing that ###### little hop forward. It's just a waste of energy and leads to confusion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok so you deny its existence and then continue to talk about its specifics. I think most everyone knows what mini-leap is and clearly you know too. If "that ###### little hop forward" would be slightly more effective people wouldn't care if the marine can <b>try</b> to jump away if the skulk can just close that small gap again with an appropriate mini-leap.
And why shouldn't marines be allowed to jump over skulks? Not to mention if we nerfed consecutive jumps that wouldn't prevent marines from doing so either.
Gimmicky movement nerfs such as reduced jump height for every jump is gimmicky. At worst just do what everyone else does (and was even done in NS1) and force a slight velocity slowdown whenever the player lands on the ground from over a certain height (maybe even more slowdown if falling from higher as if trying to gain footing or something). I don't want to see it happen but if people are gonna complain then might as well. A little NS history: The only reason NS1 marines gained the slowdown was because they could bunnyhop otherwise. Since bunnyhopping isn't even possible in this game its need is less relevant.
Lazer, its my understanding that a Marine executing a single well timed jump to evade a Skulk is NOT an issue... its the Marines that hit the jump button faster and more than the fire button thats ... irksome. Do you think its fine if a Marine bounces around a room when engaged by a Skulk, do you consider it a fine and acceptable defensive tactive to ... commence hopping when under attack ?
Yes I do think jumping to evade a skulk is acceptable, as we know skulks are superior up close, I would think marines should at least have a <i>chance</i> to evade (since all a skulk has to do is LOOK UP). It's stupid to say "ok skulk, you made it to the marine so you should get a free kill by holding down mouse1". Besides, if a marine is jumping away he can't be aiming at the skulk too or else hes going extremely slow backwards (at least once he lands) so I don't understand how jumping gets you away faster than running? Or how diminished jump height really solves much unless it takes forever to regain 'energy'?
I wasn't even aware this was a huge problem until this thread. I've had many marines try to jump from me as soon as I landed the first bite and was usually able to catch the marine again and if he got enough room from his 1 maybe 2 jumps and killed me instead then shame on ME. If you can't tell where the marine landed after his first jump then he outsmarted you plain and simple. I thought it was the gorge jump/shifting around the map that was more of an exploit. All this said I do kind of see the potential for marine jump abuse (mainly affecting skulks who are confused easily) which is <b>why I mentioned a velocity slowdown</b>, not height slowdown as the marine can still bounce away but just not as high each time.
i couldn't care less if marine can jump over the skulk. Skulks movement is pretty gimped actually, and once marines sprint they can almost run circles around aliens, so aliens are just slow. I don't know why its like this, maybe to help bad marines aim better or movement yet hasn't been added? I just can't stand marine can out run a skulk or a fade with just sprint, either reduce sprint or increase movement of aliens, its pitiful.
"not added skillbased movement system, aircontrol or momentum? I cant stress enough how awkward and restricting the game feels."
<!--quoteo(post=1835697:date=Mar 2 2011, 11:56 PM:name=luns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (luns @ Mar 2 2011, 11:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835697"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i couldn't care less if marine can jump over the skulk. Skulks movement is pretty gimped actually, and once marines sprint they can almost run circles around aliens, so aliens are just slow. I don't know why its like this, maybe to help bad marines aim better or movement yet hasn't been added? I just can't stand marine can out run a skulk or a fade with just sprint, either reduce sprint or increase movement of aliens, its pitiful.
"not added skillbased movement system, aircontrol or momentum? I cant stress enough how awkward and restricting the game feels."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that there shouldn't even be a sprint! It makes the medium maps (Tram) seem really small.
<!--quoteo(post=1835690:date=Mar 2 2011, 10:52 PM:name=Lazer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lazer @ Mar 2 2011, 10:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835690"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok so you deny its existence and then continue to talk about its specifics. I think most everyone knows what mini-leap is and clearly you know too. If "that ###### little hop forward" would be slightly more effective people wouldn't care if the marine can <b>try</b> to jump away if the skulk can just close that small gap again with an appropriate mini-leap.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My point was that this "mini-leap" is a name given by NS2 players to what essentially amounts (at least, this it what it feels like) to telling the game you want to leap, and then the game deciding a split second later "Oh, wait, he doesn't have the leap upgrade, he shouldn't do anything", and so you almost literally just lose all your velocity and arc back down to the ground. Any calls to increase its range are moot because it shouldn't even do anything anyway. "Mini-leap" is a symptom of a confused game engine in my eyes, not an ability.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And why shouldn't marines be allowed to jump over skulks? Not to mention if we nerfed consecutive jumps that wouldn't prevent marines from doing so either.
Gimmicky movement nerfs such as reduced jump height for every jump is gimmicky. At worst just do what everyone else does (and was even done in NS1) and force a slight velocity slowdown whenever the player lands on the ground from over a certain height (maybe even more slowdown if falling from higher as if trying to gain footing or something). I don't want to see it happen but if people are gonna complain then might as well. A little NS history: The only reason NS1 marines gained the slowdown was because they could bunnyhop otherwise. Since bunnyhopping isn't even possible in this game its need is less relevant.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not that they shouldn't be able to jump over marines per se, I should have been more descriptive with my reasoning. After all, people can jump over their dogs, so it would be silly to not be able to do it in NS2. The problem is that a marine should lose up close to a Skulk, unless either the Skulk is a total noob or the marine is Godlike. The reason marines walk slowly backwards is to promote hightailing it out of there when a Skulk get's too close. This is why marines should be covering each other and checking rooftops, corners, around doorways etc. Oherwise the whole melee advantage of the Skulk is lost since the marine can walk backwards at the same speed as forwards, and still lay down just as accurate fire.
Using the same reasoning, if a marine can just jump over a Skulk over and over ad nauseum to avoid getting bitten (which is a very effective tactic even I am guilty of), then it removes the need to get the ###### out of there when a Skulk closes in. What's the point of gimping walking backwards if a nearby Skulk can just essentially be sat on? There is no "Oh ######!" motivation at the thought of a Skulk getting close.
While I do like the rifle butt as a last ditch effort when a Skulk is approaching (say, I have unloaded on a Skulk getting closer, and just KNOW he is so close to death), in conjunction with just jumping around I have actually killed Skulks with full HP since I thought reloading would be too big of a disadvantage. I just jumped around and smacked the right button. I don't know how much damage the rifle butt does, but I know it has a longer range, and doesn't feel too much slower. It just feels like a melee duel between a marine and a Skulk, and the Skulk should always win in such a case, except for in such a circumstance as I pointed out earlier (i.e. I want to take the chance to land one blow to finish the enemy, when he is likely to need at least two).
A Skulk coming straight at you shouldn't be too hard to get that one rifle butt on, but once he is inside your defense for any longer it should be game over.
Being able to jump indefinitely therefore needs to be removed, in my opinion.
<!--quoteo(post=1835702:date=Mar 3 2011, 12:24 AM:name=Cerebral)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cerebral @ Mar 3 2011, 12:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835702"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You guys all have the same endless arguments but with different game mechanics. It's like a series of unfunny mad libs and it's nauseating to read.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then don't read them? No one is forcing you to read anything here, much less comment. The people that <i>do</i> comment and discuss the game are trying to have a genuine debate about it, and the direction it is going in. I don't know if you know where you are, but you are on the forum of an indie developer, making an indie game, looking for all the input they can. Frankly anything discussing the game mechanics is going to be helpful in some way, even if it only reinforces something someone else has already said.
As for "the same endless argument but with different game mechanics", I really don't see what your point is. That is almost exactly what it is, and is meant to be. Although "argument" sounds a little too emotionally invested. Isn't that why we are here? Or are you shocked that people have differing opinons?
I've read what you said skiddywinks, and after reaching the bottom of the list, "Being able to jump indefinitely therefore needs to be removed, in my opinion" totally killed it for me. While I agree with some things you say, I honestly do not care if marines can jump over aliens. The bigger issues need to be addressed such as, marines sprint outruns aliens, and alien movement generally are much slower compared to ns1.
basically, "not added skillbased movement system, aircontrol or momentum? I cant stress enough how awkward and restricting the game feels." this is one of the problems aliens having, among other problems such as nerfed abilities compared to ns1.
Its good so far, got the sound bug again. I think there needs to be a cap on how many hydra's the aliens can place, at least until you can eliminate lag because of that. maybe even up the damage/health a wee bit so we could get away with less. some players just love spamming those, and it really starts to lag up the server. its still a great game though, and I love playing it. my 2 cents
Lazer: I agree that a marine should be able to evade a skulk (by jumping), he should be given a chance, I won't dispute that. But should he be able to <b>continously</b>, <i>constantly</i> evade a skulk when he is within the skulk's range? Nerfing <b>successive</b> jumps means the marine won't be able to hop and bounce around at maximum height indefinitely without penalty, but the first jump, (and if you use the approach I suggested, any jumps after an appropriate recovery time) will be at maximum height. He will be able to, initially, evade, but he won't be able to consistently and indefinitely evade. He also won't look like a kid on an invisible pogo stick, but that's just a bonus. Using the approach I suggested, you can also add a minimum jump height (in the example I used it was 1/3) so you're never removing jump entirely. Ideally it should be much more evasive to just walk/run than to jump at the <b>minimum</b> height.
<!--quoteo(post=1835736:date=Mar 3 2011, 04:20 AM:name=luns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (luns @ Mar 3 2011, 04:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835736"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've read what you said skiddywinks, and after reaching the bottom of the list, "Being able to jump indefinitely therefore needs to be removed, in my opinion" totally killed it for me. While I agree with some things you say, I honestly do not care if marines can jump over aliens. The bigger issues need to be addressed such as, marines sprint outruns aliens, and alien movement generally are much slower compared to ns1.
basically, "not added skillbased movement system, aircontrol or momentum? I cant stress enough how awkward and restricting the game feels." this is one of the problems aliens having, among other problems such as nerfed abilities compared to ns1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do not care if marines can jump over aliens. In fact, I pointed out they should be able to. My argument is that they shouldn't be able to do it indefinitely, over and over and over again, for the same reason Harimau has pointed out.
The only thing you seem to disgaree with me on, based on your post, is that other things need to be sorted out first, in which case you are only really arguing about the schedule, rather than anything I am actually talking about.
I still have no idea what anyone means by "skill based movement system". The only thing that springs to mind is that the same thing is said as an argument for bunnyhopping, which is ridiculous. As for air control and momentum, I don't know what on earth you want. Everything that doesn't fly (so, basically, everything but the Lerk) shouldn't have any air control. That just sounds daft.
Partial air-control post-simulates the idea of premeditatively deciding where to jump to and how far. Premeditative control is not an option (after a certain extent) due to the lack of fine control that necessarily results from the relatively simple and limited keyboard-and-mouse control scheme: mouselook, directional keys, and jump. Air-control attempts to simulate (in spite of the limitation of these simplistic controls) the very intuitive and real-world idea of fine jump control; but in fact appears very unintuitive due to the unrealistic mid-flight control approach.
I have heard that bunnyhopping allows players to maintain fine control over their movement speed (as well as their position). I personally question the validity of this (especially in a combat scenario), but if true, it represents another unrealistic simulation (limited by the control scheme and interface) of a real-world idea.
<!--quoteo(post=1835781:date=Mar 3 2011, 09:58 AM:name=Skiddywinks)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skiddywinks @ Mar 3 2011, 09:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835781"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I still have no idea what anyone means by "skill based movement system". The only thing that springs to mind is that the same thing is said as an argument for bunnyhopping, which is ridiculous. As for air control and momentum, I don't know what on earth you want. Everything that doesn't fly (so, basically, everything but the Lerk) shouldn't have any air control. That just sounds daft.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Air control in HL1 was a true skill and something people wouldn't just pick up on immediately. The more experienced players became quite comfortable with an already rather fluid movement system. Games like TFC had entire maps devoted strictly to players who understood the concept (anyone remember conc maps?) Bunnyhopping also falls into this catagory if combined with successive jumps (often using mwheeldown or something).
Since NS was on the HL engine people who had enough skill to take full advantage of the movement mechanics would be at an advantage (as any experienced player should feel). It gave people something to learn and get better at other than point and shoot (plenty of other games enforce this). Because of the potential for abuse as a marine they gave a velocity slowdown on land not a <b>gimmicky reduced jump height</b>. This did still allow the marine to exercise air control however when he jumped, he can keep jumping up and down if he wants (so can I) but hes gonna be just about jumping in place once he goes for the 2nd jump (and no one complained about this in NS1). I would assume the same will be done in NS2 eventually <i>so we can stop proposing more marine nerfs and worry more about how the skulk has been crippled and how to improve it</i>.
*It seems many people still don't understand what air control/skill base movement used to be (if you know then this isn't aimed at you). In HL1 it was basically jump, hold strafe in a direction and look towards that direction and you will curve toward where you are going at a slightly increasing speed. If you are playing a game that didn't nerf landing velocity you could keep doing this to get moving faster than just running around would allow, aka bunnyhopping, which obviously a marine shouldn't do (but can't so no worries).
TLDR >> If any nerfs should be applied to the marine it would be a velocity slowdown on land like NS1 did and just about every other shooter game that isn't pure arcade style. If anything we should be revisiting the nerfs that the aliens have received and help improve them to achieve balance, not worsen the marines.
The infestation mechanic from the point of view of a marine is really quite cool, defending a room and seeing the infestation creeping through the door is actually very impressive, with proper graphics I think this will be a good selling point of the game. Obviously the mechanics need sorting out, but I think pushing for getting that feeling in the game is important, as it's quite unique.
The skulk movement is much improved from previous versions, although it has issues with small obstacles, such as wires in vents and suchlike, otherwise I can usually navigate fine without falling off, I just get stuck on things, if you can solve the getting stuck you will have a pretty much perfect skulk movement in terms of useability.
Main problem I'm having with the combat is probably lag, guns are kinda unresponsive as they fire a bit behind when I click, and this is a real problem, less so than many fps games because everything moves really fast in this game. The lag needs to be really minimal if this is going to work. In other game it probably wouldn't matter so much, I was playing the crysis 2 demo just before and I have no lag issues in that despite having a similar amount of delayed response on occasion, because everything is really slow in that game.
Also moving from crysis 2 to NS2 I find it much easier to aim in crysis 2 for some reason, the mouse movement feels different and it's hard to explain, NS2 kinda feels a bit skittery, like my mouse is on an ice rink or something, hard to pin down though.
They're all small things but they have a really annoying effect on the combat, makes it hard to enjoy.
On the other hand I did notice skulk bite responsiveness seems much better and I love the little hit indicator, an excellent addition for both sides.
<!--quoteo(post=1835788:date=Mar 3 2011, 04:51 PM:name=countbasie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (countbasie @ Mar 3 2011, 04:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835788"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah keep this endless discussion up, wann see the first closed thread that was opened by a dev :D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why would it get closed? No one is breaking any rules, and I am finding it rather educational. For example:
<!--quoteo(post=1835792:date=Mar 3 2011, 05:13 PM:name=Lazer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lazer @ Mar 3 2011, 05:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835792"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Air control in HL1 was a true skill and something people wouldn't just pick up on immediately. The more experienced players became quite comfortable with an already rather fluid movement system. Games like TFC had entire maps devoted strictly to players who understood the concept (anyone remember conc maps?) Bunnyhopping also falls into this catagory if combined with successive jumps (often using mwheeldown or something).
Since NS was on the HL engine people who had enough skill to take full advantage of the movement mechanics would be at an advantage (as any experienced player should feel). It gave people something to learn and get better at other than point and shoot (plenty of other games enforce this). Because of the potential for abuse as a marine they gave a velocity slowdown on land not a <b>gimmicky reduced jump height</b>. This did still allow the marine to exercise air control however when he jumped, he can keep jumping up and down if he wants (so can I) but hes gonna be just about jumping in place once he goes for the 2nd jump (and no one complained about this in NS1). I would assume the same will be done in NS2 eventually <i>so we can stop proposing more marine nerfs and worry more about how the skulk has been crippled and how to improve it</i>.
*It seems many people still don't understand what air control/skill base movement used to be (if you know then this isn't aimed at you). In HL1 it was basically jump, hold strafe in a direction and look towards that direction and you will curve toward where you are going at a slightly increasing speed. If you are playing a game that didn't nerf landing velocity you could keep doing this to get moving faster than just running around would allow, aka bunnyhopping, which obviously a marine shouldn't do (but can't so no worries).
TLDR >> If any nerfs should be applied to the marine it would be a velocity slowdown on land like NS1 did and just about every other shooter game that isn't pure arcade style. If anything we should be revisiting the nerfs that the aliens have received and help improve them to achieve balance, not worsen the marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you mean you would strafe (say) left, and then start turning left (and continuously doing so)? Because otherwise strafing and looking at the same direction, at the same time, is kind of impossible, seeing as strafe is relative to where you are looking.
To be entirely honest, your proposal (a la NS1) would work just as well for stopping what is happening. If they end up jumping on the spot after a handful of jumps, that stops them jumping around and over Skulks continuously, and that is all I want to see happen.
As for skill based movement, I am all for it, so long as it fits in with valid reasoning. I am all for anything that brings another layer of skill to the game. Bunnyhopping makes no sense though, and is not something that should be in NS2, nor anything like it that is a result of abuse of the game engine rather than a feature implemented by the developers.
Comments
I want it so bad!
"We don't seem to have hendrik@granna.de on file. For help, write us at store@unknownworlds.com."
Sry for my english, greetings from germany.
I want it so bad!
Sry for my english, greetings from germany.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wrong thread mate, but I hope you get it soon. Try this if you didn't already: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/retrieve" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/retrieve</a>
I find marines vs skulks kinda balanced, don't know if Im getting an advantage from slow servers or whatnot. The nightvision contrast really gives an edge in spin-jump combat and the hitreg seems to be in my favor with lucky bites going in. Shotgun marines with good aim is a nuisance, but it doesnt break it for me - running leap is probably as annoying with its startling and superior movement, although not as efficient as a point-shoot-KO gun.
Rockdown's small corridors with tons of corners is nice for the skulk. For long stretches (long fights in tram tunnels fx) you should probably go lerk - "don't bring a knife to a gunfight"
Yeah, ive tried this already. I am sorry, but from what i see and read i get more and more frustrated ...
About the "Jumping-Marine-Problem" ive read about... Nerf-Jumping is a great way to eliminate the problem, i hate bunnyhoppers :-P.
Lets fix the skulk not continue to cripple the marine...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I doubt you could take three bites from a Skulk before dying though.
The game should be based on balance, not realism. If the best way to improve the marine/skulk balance is to nerf many consecutive jumps, I'm all for it. Of course, different options should be looked in to, but when the main issue is a marine jumping around like the energiser bunny, it only seems obvious to nerf the jumping, rather than come up with some roundabout fix.
It's like the melee in L4D. A few smacks at full speed, and then slowly increasing cool down until it becomes useless and you have to wait for it to "recharge".
2 teams of nerfed players is no fun. If we just let skulks run slightly faster or mini-leap cover a few more feet we could just as easily be at a solution. If this makes skulks OP then maybe there already was balance. Clearly balance is important over realism, but it should not always be met by nerfing the more powerful side of the debate (which seems to be the outcome of almost every recent balance decision).
maybe i didn't try hard enough.. played on 2 servers....well, tried to play, actually, but this patch sux
- tab didn't work
- lagged like hell
with a development speed like this, <!--coloro:#ffff00--><span style="color:#ffff00"><!--/coloro-->i see the December 2011 release date in danger :-><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
hmm, I had this on 2 different servers... well didn't try a third one, though....
as i said, i got pis_sed off and left to voice my rage on the forum ;-)
2 teams of nerfed players is no fun. If we just let skulks run slightly faster or mini-leap cover a few more feet we could just as easily be at a solution. If this makes skulks OP then maybe there already was balance. Clearly balance is important over realism, but it should not always be met by nerfing the more powerful side of the debate (which seems to be the outcome of almost every recent balance decision).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is no such thing as mini-leap. There is leap and running/moving leap. Personally, I think they should just disable un-upgraded leap from doing anything at all when activated while moving. It would stop a lot of people saying it is broken for them etc. I don't really see the point in it doing that ###### little hop forward. It's just a waste of energy and leads to confusion.
As for making the movement speed faster, while I do agree that should be done, it is going to do nothing to fix the melee issue of marines being able to hop around like crazy (even <i>over</i> the Skulk).
To be honest, specifics like running speed, marine sprint speed, damage attributes etc will be getting tweaked right up until the end, so there is little point in making any values dead set. Marines jumping around like they are on speed is going to be an issue until it is fixed though, and isn't something that you simply change the value of to tweak. It requires a mechanic to fix it, and it should be done soon to offer the most testing possible.
Ok so you deny its existence and then continue to talk about its specifics. I think most everyone knows what mini-leap is and clearly you know too. If "that ###### little hop forward" would be slightly more effective people wouldn't care if the marine can <b>try</b> to jump away if the skulk can just close that small gap again with an appropriate mini-leap.
And why shouldn't marines be allowed to jump over skulks? Not to mention if we nerfed consecutive jumps that wouldn't prevent marines from doing so either.
Gimmicky movement nerfs such as reduced jump height for every jump is gimmicky. At worst just do what everyone else does (and was even done in NS1) and force a slight velocity slowdown whenever the player lands on the ground from over a certain height (maybe even more slowdown if falling from higher as if trying to gain footing or something). I don't want to see it happen but if people are gonna complain then might as well. A little NS history: The only reason NS1 marines gained the slowdown was because they could bunnyhop otherwise. Since bunnyhopping isn't even possible in this game its need is less relevant.
Do you think its fine if a Marine bounces around a room when engaged by a Skulk, do you consider it a fine and acceptable defensive tactive to ... commence hopping when under attack ?
I wasn't even aware this was a huge problem until this thread. I've had many marines try to jump from me as soon as I landed the first bite and was usually able to catch the marine again and if he got enough room from his 1 maybe 2 jumps and killed me instead then shame on ME. If you can't tell where the marine landed after his first jump then he outsmarted you plain and simple. I thought it was the gorge jump/shifting around the map that was more of an exploit. All this said I do kind of see the potential for marine jump abuse (mainly affecting skulks who are confused easily) which is <b>why I mentioned a velocity slowdown</b>, not height slowdown as the marine can still bounce away but just not as high each time.
And for gods sakes guys. The leap you get at the start of the game is supposed to be used when you are STATIONARY!
You get to properly leap without the upgrade if you are not moving. Don't remove this starting leap as I find it very useful at the start of the game.
"not added skillbased movement system, aircontrol or momentum? I cant stress enough how awkward and restricting the game feels."
"not added skillbased movement system, aircontrol or momentum? I cant stress enough how awkward and restricting the game feels."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that there shouldn't even be a sprint!
It makes the medium maps (Tram) seem really small.
Remove sprint!
It was in NS so it shouldn't be in NS2.
My point was that this "mini-leap" is a name given by NS2 players to what essentially amounts (at least, this it what it feels like) to telling the game you want to leap, and then the game deciding a split second later "Oh, wait, he doesn't have the leap upgrade, he shouldn't do anything", and so you almost literally just lose all your velocity and arc back down to the ground. Any calls to increase its range are moot because it shouldn't even do anything anyway. "Mini-leap" is a symptom of a confused game engine in my eyes, not an ability.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And why shouldn't marines be allowed to jump over skulks? Not to mention if we nerfed consecutive jumps that wouldn't prevent marines from doing so either.
Gimmicky movement nerfs such as reduced jump height for every jump is gimmicky. At worst just do what everyone else does (and was even done in NS1) and force a slight velocity slowdown whenever the player lands on the ground from over a certain height (maybe even more slowdown if falling from higher as if trying to gain footing or something). I don't want to see it happen but if people are gonna complain then might as well. A little NS history: The only reason NS1 marines gained the slowdown was because they could bunnyhop otherwise. Since bunnyhopping isn't even possible in this game its need is less relevant.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not that they shouldn't be able to jump over marines per se, I should have been more descriptive with my reasoning. After all, people can jump over their dogs, so it would be silly to not be able to do it in NS2. The problem is that a marine should lose up close to a Skulk, unless either the Skulk is a total noob or the marine is Godlike. The reason marines walk slowly backwards is to promote hightailing it out of there when a Skulk get's too close. This is why marines should be covering each other and checking rooftops, corners, around doorways etc. Oherwise the whole melee advantage of the Skulk is lost since the marine can walk backwards at the same speed as forwards, and still lay down just as accurate fire.
Using the same reasoning, if a marine can just jump over a Skulk over and over ad nauseum to avoid getting bitten (which is a very effective tactic even I am guilty of), then it removes the need to get the ###### out of there when a Skulk closes in. What's the point of gimping walking backwards if a nearby Skulk can just essentially be sat on? There is no "Oh ######!" motivation at the thought of a Skulk getting close.
While I do like the rifle butt as a last ditch effort when a Skulk is approaching (say, I have unloaded on a Skulk getting closer, and just KNOW he is so close to death), in conjunction with just jumping around I have actually killed Skulks with full HP since I thought reloading would be too big of a disadvantage. I just jumped around and smacked the right button. I don't know how much damage the rifle butt does, but I know it has a longer range, and doesn't feel too much slower. It just feels like a melee duel between a marine and a Skulk, and the Skulk should always win in such a case, except for in such a circumstance as I pointed out earlier (i.e. I want to take the chance to land one blow to finish the enemy, when he is likely to need at least two).
A Skulk coming straight at you shouldn't be too hard to get that one rifle butt on, but once he is inside your defense for any longer it should be game over.
Being able to jump indefinitely therefore needs to be removed, in my opinion.
Then don't read them? No one is forcing you to read anything here, much less comment. The people that <i>do</i> comment and discuss the game are trying to have a genuine debate about it, and the direction it is going in. I don't know if you know where you are, but you are on the forum of an indie developer, making an indie game, looking for all the input they can. Frankly anything discussing the game mechanics is going to be helpful in some way, even if it only reinforces something someone else has already said.
As for "the same endless argument but with different game mechanics", I really don't see what your point is. That is almost exactly what it is, and is meant to be. Although "argument" sounds a little too emotionally invested. Isn't that why we are here? Or are you shocked that people have differing opinons?
basically, "not added skillbased movement system, aircontrol or momentum? I cant stress enough how awkward and restricting the game feels."
this is one of the problems aliens having, among other problems such as nerfed abilities compared to ns1.
Lazer: I agree that a marine should be able to evade a skulk (by jumping), he should be given a chance, I won't dispute that. But should he be able to <b>continously</b>, <i>constantly</i> evade a skulk when he is within the skulk's range? Nerfing <b>successive</b> jumps means the marine won't be able to hop and bounce around at maximum height indefinitely without penalty, but the first jump, (and if you use the approach I suggested, any jumps after an appropriate recovery time) will be at maximum height. He will be able to, initially, evade, but he won't be able to consistently and indefinitely evade. He also won't look like a kid on an invisible pogo stick, but that's just a bonus.
Using the approach I suggested, you can also add a minimum jump height (in the example I used it was 1/3) so you're never removing jump entirely. Ideally it should be much more evasive to just walk/run than to jump at the <b>minimum</b> height.
basically, "not added skillbased movement system, aircontrol or momentum? I cant stress enough how awkward and restricting the game feels."
this is one of the problems aliens having, among other problems such as nerfed abilities compared to ns1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do not care if marines can jump over aliens. In fact, I pointed out they should be able to. My argument is that they shouldn't be able to do it indefinitely, over and over and over again, for the same reason Harimau has pointed out.
The only thing you seem to disgaree with me on, based on your post, is that other things need to be sorted out first, in which case you are only really arguing about the schedule, rather than anything I am actually talking about.
I still have no idea what anyone means by "skill based movement system". The only thing that springs to mind is that the same thing is said as an argument for bunnyhopping, which is ridiculous. As for air control and momentum, I don't know what on earth you want. Everything that doesn't fly (so, basically, everything but the Lerk) shouldn't have any air control. That just sounds daft.
I have heard that bunnyhopping allows players to maintain fine control over their movement speed (as well as their position). I personally question the validity of this (especially in a combat scenario), but if true, it represents another unrealistic simulation (limited by the control scheme and interface) of a real-world idea.
I'm off to get a bj.
t(-.-t)
Air control in HL1 was a true skill and something people wouldn't just pick up on immediately. The more experienced players became quite comfortable with an already rather fluid movement system. Games like TFC had entire maps devoted strictly to players who understood the concept (anyone remember conc maps?) Bunnyhopping also falls into this catagory if combined with successive jumps (often using mwheeldown or something).
Since NS was on the HL engine people who had enough skill to take full advantage of the movement mechanics would be at an advantage (as any experienced player should feel). It gave people something to learn and get better at other than point and shoot (plenty of other games enforce this). Because of the potential for abuse as a marine they gave a velocity slowdown on land not a <b>gimmicky reduced jump height</b>. This did still allow the marine to exercise air control however when he jumped, he can keep jumping up and down if he wants (so can I) but hes gonna be just about jumping in place once he goes for the 2nd jump (and no one complained about this in NS1). I would assume the same will be done in NS2 eventually <i>so we can stop proposing more marine nerfs and worry more about how the skulk has been crippled and how to improve it</i>.
*It seems many people still don't understand what air control/skill base movement used to be (if you know then this isn't aimed at you). In HL1 it was basically jump, hold strafe in a direction and look towards that direction and you will curve toward where you are going at a slightly increasing speed. If you are playing a game that didn't nerf landing velocity you could keep doing this to get moving faster than just running around would allow, aka bunnyhopping, which obviously a marine shouldn't do (but can't so no worries).
TLDR >> If any nerfs should be applied to the marine it would be a velocity slowdown on land like NS1 did and just about every other shooter game that isn't pure arcade style. If anything we should be revisiting the nerfs that the aliens have received and help improve them to achieve balance, not worsen the marines.
The infestation mechanic from the point of view of a marine is really quite cool, defending a room and seeing the infestation creeping through the door is actually very impressive, with proper graphics I think this will be a good selling point of the game. Obviously the mechanics need sorting out, but I think pushing for getting that feeling in the game is important, as it's quite unique.
The skulk movement is much improved from previous versions, although it has issues with small obstacles, such as wires in vents and suchlike, otherwise I can usually navigate fine without falling off, I just get stuck on things, if you can solve the getting stuck you will have a pretty much perfect skulk movement in terms of useability.
Main problem I'm having with the combat is probably lag, guns are kinda unresponsive as they fire a bit behind when I click, and this is a real problem, less so than many fps games because everything moves really fast in this game. The lag needs to be really minimal if this is going to work. In other game it probably wouldn't matter so much, I was playing the crysis 2 demo just before and I have no lag issues in that despite having a similar amount of delayed response on occasion, because everything is really slow in that game.
Also moving from crysis 2 to NS2 I find it much easier to aim in crysis 2 for some reason, the mouse movement feels different and it's hard to explain, NS2 kinda feels a bit skittery, like my mouse is on an ice rink or something, hard to pin down though.
They're all small things but they have a really annoying effect on the combat, makes it hard to enjoy.
On the other hand I did notice skulk bite responsiveness seems much better and I love the little hit indicator, an excellent addition for both sides.
Why would it get closed? No one is breaking any rules, and I am finding it rather educational. For example:
<!--quoteo(post=1835792:date=Mar 3 2011, 05:13 PM:name=Lazer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lazer @ Mar 3 2011, 05:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835792"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Air control in HL1 was a true skill and something people wouldn't just pick up on immediately. The more experienced players became quite comfortable with an already rather fluid movement system. Games like TFC had entire maps devoted strictly to players who understood the concept (anyone remember conc maps?) Bunnyhopping also falls into this catagory if combined with successive jumps (often using mwheeldown or something).
Since NS was on the HL engine people who had enough skill to take full advantage of the movement mechanics would be at an advantage (as any experienced player should feel). It gave people something to learn and get better at other than point and shoot (plenty of other games enforce this). Because of the potential for abuse as a marine they gave a velocity slowdown on land not a <b>gimmicky reduced jump height</b>. This did still allow the marine to exercise air control however when he jumped, he can keep jumping up and down if he wants (so can I) but hes gonna be just about jumping in place once he goes for the 2nd jump (and no one complained about this in NS1). I would assume the same will be done in NS2 eventually <i>so we can stop proposing more marine nerfs and worry more about how the skulk has been crippled and how to improve it</i>.
*It seems many people still don't understand what air control/skill base movement used to be (if you know then this isn't aimed at you). In HL1 it was basically jump, hold strafe in a direction and look towards that direction and you will curve toward where you are going at a slightly increasing speed. If you are playing a game that didn't nerf landing velocity you could keep doing this to get moving faster than just running around would allow, aka bunnyhopping, which obviously a marine shouldn't do (but can't so no worries).
TLDR >> If any nerfs should be applied to the marine it would be a velocity slowdown on land like NS1 did and just about every other shooter game that isn't pure arcade style. If anything we should be revisiting the nerfs that the aliens have received and help improve them to achieve balance, not worsen the marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you mean you would strafe (say) left, and then start turning left (and continuously doing so)? Because otherwise strafing and looking at the same direction, at the same time, is kind of impossible, seeing as strafe is relative to where you are looking.
To be entirely honest, your proposal (a la NS1) would work just as well for stopping what is happening. If they end up jumping on the spot after a handful of jumps, that stops them jumping around and over Skulks continuously, and that is all I want to see happen.
As for skill based movement, I am all for it, so long as it fits in with valid reasoning. I am all for anything that brings another layer of skill to the game. Bunnyhopping makes no sense though, and is not something that should be in NS2, nor anything like it that is a result of abuse of the game engine rather than a feature implemented by the developers.