Welders
Align
Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Forum Moderators, Constellation
Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Forum Moderators, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Yes, again. The time is right.</div>So now that we have infestation and a feel for how it plays, how about those welders.
A low-tier means of removing infestation, also capable of repairing structures and armour. Replaces pistol, 10 p-res, no research required.
<u>Potential issues:</u>
<i>-Low-tier removal rendering infestation ineffective</i>
While it is low-tier, it's not necessarily shotgun levels of all-around effectiveness. You'd have to crouch and weld a patch of infestation for quite a bit to get rid of it, so you're rather more vulnerable than with a flamethrower.
<i>-Marine repairing rendering MACs useless</i>
They'll still have a role as cheap expendables that follow the commanders orders exactly. You don't want to keep your marines in the base welding stuff when a MAC can do that just as well; but allowing someone who doesn't feel up to the shooting part to help the team is always nice.
<i>-Repair armour when medpacks do it already?!</i>
I assume that's a bug.
EDIT: <a href="http://getsatisfaction.com/unknownworlds/topics/reintroducing_welders" target="_blank">Now on getsatisfaction.</a>
A low-tier means of removing infestation, also capable of repairing structures and armour. Replaces pistol, 10 p-res, no research required.
<u>Potential issues:</u>
<i>-Low-tier removal rendering infestation ineffective</i>
While it is low-tier, it's not necessarily shotgun levels of all-around effectiveness. You'd have to crouch and weld a patch of infestation for quite a bit to get rid of it, so you're rather more vulnerable than with a flamethrower.
<i>-Marine repairing rendering MACs useless</i>
They'll still have a role as cheap expendables that follow the commanders orders exactly. You don't want to keep your marines in the base welding stuff when a MAC can do that just as well; but allowing someone who doesn't feel up to the shooting part to help the team is always nice.
<i>-Repair armour when medpacks do it already?!</i>
I assume that's a bug.
EDIT: <a href="http://getsatisfaction.com/unknownworlds/topics/reintroducing_welders" target="_blank">Now on getsatisfaction.</a>
Comments
so bring back welders is something I've wanted from the start.
I see no other way marines can repair anything themselves without some sort of a tool, bring back the welders would make sense.
the welder should work as it did in ns1, such as repairing buildings and restoring armor.
medpacks which restore armor now, this must be removed. since medpacks can be spammed, its overpowering.
once welders are in-game meds will only restore health, the rest can be done through a welder.
For your low-tier anti-DI needs: I would prefer switching shotgun (to tier 2) and flamethrower (to tier 1, will still require researching, will still have a cost), then weakening flamethrower anti-DI capability, but have an anti-structure/anti-DI flamethrower upgrade research at tier 3.
If we really want welders... One idea for welders is to make them a rifle attachment - activatable with mouse2. This means that to have a welder you must have your vanilla rifle, and you can't also have a grenade launcher, and you can't keep your rifle-butt; and obviously you can't have a flamethrower or a shotgun.
Also, rechargable energy. But you can get an instant full-charge at your nearest armory.
Despite my comment on the matter?
So,
yes! YES! <b>YES GODDAMNFFFFFUUU IT</b>
especially when the mobile siege cannons come into play. its just not fair to have to protect macs and cannons during a push, neither of which have defensive capabilities.
macs are there so marines don't HAVE to do jobs, not because they shouldn't be able to. macs allow "all guns on deck" when establishing an expansion, but they shouldn't stop players from being able to repair buildings/macs/siege cannons/armour.
The functionality of welders could simply be added to the E key really, the actual welder model would just be a visual effect. No real reason I can think of to make it a separate weapon, or make it cost money, given that it would be better balanced as a basic ability and rely on numbers of marines to do things quickly, thereby reinforcing the teamwork idea of marines.
Are you considering the fact that most everyone's idea of welders includes the ability to repair teammates armor? There has to be a limit or a disadvantage to the ability to weld, otherwise Marine strategy will be reduced to repair-trains.
It's an interesting change to put weld in the control of the commander, giving him/her one more thing to do. =P Yet, the team still needs to protect the bot.
Welders are sooo NS1.
It just don't make sense if the TSA developes and buys welding robots just to stack around in base and let the fighters do the repairing...
Instead let increase the work range for MACs
We could add a "eliminate Infestation" mode for the mac (doing 5 damage/second to DI (= 100sec for a patch) with the ability to send more MACs to a single patch and decrease time)
Also...
<!--quoteo(post=1837776:date=Mar 18 2011, 06:57 AM:name=TAPETRVE)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TAPETRVE @ Mar 18 2011, 06:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1837776"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...the commander should be able to assign a MAC to accompany a single Marine (thus adjusting to the Marine's walking speed) and start repairing as soon as said Marine...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ... "uses" a damaged building or a powernode (or maybe infestation)
And protecting MACs is a harder job for the marines then "protect the welder dude - if he dies just pick up his welder, it's no biggie" which adds tention to a game.
Edit:
Having MACs do the repair and so on adds also to the marine-commander-interaction. Good marines just tell their commander if some building is damaged. If the marine can fix it by himself he won't commnunicate with the commander of course.
Make it lower the gun as e build currently does? Make it slow enough that you are better served shooting in combat, make aliens more deadly to counteract it.
I don't see the problem really, the mechanic with welders is that marines will be able to regenerate up to full power given time and lack of alien attack, precisely how you achieve that is largely irrelevant. If you have a few marines with welders, it means it takes a while to repair everyone, if you give everyone slightly crappy welders, it means it takes a while to repair everyone. Same thing.
<!--quoteo(post=1837828:date=Mar 18 2011, 08:34 PM:name=Shilorius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shilorius @ Mar 18 2011, 08:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1837828"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It just don't make sense if the TSA developes and buys welding robots just to stack around in base and let the fighters do the repairing...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fortunately you won't have to do that, you'll merely have the option.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We could add a "eliminate Infestation" mode for the mac (doing 5 damage/second to DI (= 100sec for a patch) with the ability to send more MACs to a single patch and decrease time)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm OK with this, but figured adding new kinds of player actions would be more interesting than another AI ability.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... "uses" a damaged building or a powernode (or maybe infestation)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What about armouries, CCs and IPs (with transponder)? The latter two kinda work if you just do it at a good angle, but it's still awkward.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And protecting MACs is a harder job for the marines then "protect the welder dude - if he dies just pick up his welder, it's no biggie" which adds tention to a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Losing a fellow marine is a huge deal since that's one less gun protecting your back.
An unneccesary tradeoff. Why force people to choose the extra mechanic? Why not just make it a standard one and balance it around that?
If healing with welders is a good mechanic, make it available to everyone, so people can rely on it and reliably build strategies around it.
If neccesary, increase alien lethality to counteract the generally increased health of marines.
Obviously you don't want to go too far in the other direction (like having to pay for a flashlight, with the motivation "It adds a choice, since players may not find themselves in dark areas during a life and can choose to risk it and save res; also, aliens will be aware of this and may be encouraged to bite power nodes to exploit these cheapskates") either.
Because there are a lot of implications to a welder than just "marines repairing everyone". It sounds like you're saying an explicit welder (complete with sacrifices) provides the same depth as an "implied" welder without the unneeded complexity (only valid reason to "not do it"). This just isn't true.
If you have one marine with a welder, it means that marine has a unique role, making him a valued asset, and a bigger threat. If every marine has a welder, it's just a "fact of life". It doesn't provide any depth to the game, and we end up in a pretty similar boat than before the mechanic was implemented. The need to provide all Marines with a way to repair Power Nodes as a means to balance gameplay has no bearing on and does not necessarily imply the need to provide all Marines with a way to restore Armor. The dual function of the welder as we all currently understand it from NS1, whether we'd want it to or not implies the opposite. Whether each function of this one device can be balanced doesn't even come in to play until the necessity of each has been determined.
Personally, I'm in favor of enabling Marines, for exactly the reason Archaic said. MACs should be sufficient in completing tasks when no one is available, but they shouldn't bar Marines from performing these tasks either, otherwise we're further dividing the Commander and Player objectives more than we already are by having MACs in the first place.
If you have one marine with a welder, it means that marine has a unique role, making him a valued asset, and a bigger threat. If every marine has a welder, it's just a "fact of life". It doesn't provide any depth to the game, and we end up in a pretty similar boat than before the mechanic was implemented. The need to provide all Marines with a way to repair Power Nodes as a means to balance gameplay has no bearing on and does not necessarily imply the need to provide all Marines with a way to restore Armor. The dual function of the welder as we all currently understand it from NS1, whether we'd want it to or not implies the opposite. Whether each function of this one device can be balanced doesn't even come in to play until the necessity of each has been determined.
Personally, I'm in favor of enabling Marines, for exactly the reason Archaic said. MACs should be sufficient in completing tasks when no one is available, but they shouldn't bar Marines from performing these tasks either, otherwise we're further dividing the Commander and Player objectives more than we already are by having MACs in the first place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If one marine has a welder he shoots aliens and then repairs stuff if he has time afterwards. If he dies someone else picks up the welder.
If every marine has a welder they shoot aliens and then repair stuff afterwards if they have time. If one of them dies, someone else already has a welder.
I don't see a meaningful difference.
If marines have welders, it opens up more depth than if they don't because they can now perform more actions, they can repair stuff if they need to and they can keep each other alive if they work together. So you certainly aren't in the same boat as if nobody had welders.
If you particularly want to you can still designate one person to just be the healer and run around in a firefight repairing everything, although I think that would be rather ill advised with any welder implementation.
<!--quoteo(post=1837843:date=Mar 18 2011, 09:18 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Mar 18 2011, 09:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1837843"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't buy that. It suggests that tradeoffs are undesirable in gameplay, like "Why pay personal res for guns when we already have to research them? Increase alien health to compensate for the greater number of higher-tier weapons."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because resources serve as an area control mechanic, they force people to take territory, but in order to make resources desirable, they need value, they need to give you an advantage, hence buying weaponry.
If you make weaponry free, you sort of break the resource mechanic and therefore the territory control mechanic. You still have other reasons to control ground, but it does remove a fairly major link in the chain.
Welders on the other hand are not a meaningful tradeoff, having to buy one at the armory and swap out a pistol is simply an annoyance, it doesn't reinforce the resource mechanic significantly because guns and armor/jp are still the major expenditure, all it really does is make welders unreliable, sometimes your squad has one, sometimes it doesn't.
It also isn't a balance concern like say, making flamethrowers universally amazing against everything. If you do that it makes the other guns useless. If you make welders individually weak but give them to everyone to use when they like, it simply reinforces the existing marine mechanic of strength in numbers, it means a group of marines will be tougher than before, and that can be directly counterbalanced by making aliens a bit tougher in general so that marines are forced to use their enhanced numerical strength to beat them.
If every marine has a welder they shoot aliens and then repair stuff afterwards if they have time. If one of them dies, someone else already has a welder.
I don't see a meaningful difference.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->There is still that bit about having less firepower since you lose one of your main weapons. If what you lost was the axe I might agree, since it doesn't help much in fights, but the pistol is a valuable weapon.
In the former scenario the marine with the welder (and whoever picks it up after he dies, should they decide to) has a distinct support role, making him potentially more valuable to target/keep alive. Deciding whether to risk rushing over to his body to pick it up so you can keep your mates in shape is naturally different from merely being down one guy and staying in position.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If marines have welders, it opens up more depth than if they don't because they can now perform more actions, they can repair stuff if they need to and they can keep each other alive if they work together.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do like that part, but it shouldn't be such an across-the-board change. It feels like giving every alien some variant of healspray; it does promote teamwork, but the gorge becomes less distinct and valuable.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it doesn't reinforce the resource mechanic significantly because guns and armor/jp are still the major expenditure<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->It costs half a shotgun, that's not an insignificant amount. Even if the income rates are rather generous at this point in the beta.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you make welders individually weak but give them to everyone to use when they like, it simply reinforces the existing marine mechanic of strength in numbers, it means a group of marines will be tougher than before, and that can be directly counterbalanced by making aliens a bit tougher in general so that marines are forced to use their enhanced numerical strength to beat them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While we do want strength in numbers to be the main factor, we don't force every marine to be the same; players have different strengths and weaknesses. This was even in NS1, though the actual choice was more up to the commander, rather than the individual as in NS2.
And I really can't see increasing numbers across the board for either team as preferable to adding a single new weapon or class.
In the former scenario the marine with the welder (and whoever picks it up after he dies, should they decide to) has a distinct support role, making him potentially more valuable to target/keep alive. Deciding whether to risk rushing over to his body to pick it up so you can keep your mates in shape is naturally different from merely being down one guy and staying in position.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One pistol in a group of marines isn't important, the pistol itself isn't really important given that almost any other weapon is better than it, it's only really useful if you run out of shots and if you do that you're kinda dead, for long range sniping the rifle or the grenade launcher works fine, and with the flamer and the shotgun you shouldn't be sniping, get close and kill it with your obscenely powerful close range gun. It's only useful as a primary weapon if you are alone, and if you are alone why do you have a welder?
Also no, he doesn't. He is simply the guy with the welder at the moment, if he dies he is going to do so right next to you (assuming he is, as you say, welding people) and you can instantly pick the welder up. If it's really that much of a time consideration, nobody should be welding, they should all be killing whatever it is that's about to kill your entire squad.
In most cases you really don't want to be welding, you want to be killing stuff so that it stops doing damage, then you can weld at your leisure later.
<!--quoteo(post=1837940:date=Mar 19 2011, 05:49 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Mar 19 2011, 05:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1837940"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I do like that part, but it shouldn't be such an across-the-board change. It feels like giving every alien some variant of healspray; it does promote teamwork, but the gorge becomes less distinct and valuable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All aliens do have a variant of healspray, they all regenerate and crags/hives are very easy to access, the gorge is not useful for healing really other than healing hives, most aliens heal fine from the many other sources available to them. The concentrated power of the gorge is mostly used to keep bases alive with defences and healing, not really for supporting attacks. Alien commanders do that far better with well placed crags around the level.
<!--quoteo(post=1837940:date=Mar 19 2011, 05:49 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Mar 19 2011, 05:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1837940"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It costs half a shotgun, that's not an insignificant amount. Even if the income rates are rather generous at this point in the beta.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's insignificant in the sense that it doesn't really contribute to the resource mechanic, you still have plenty of stuff to spend cash on, you don't really need another one. If needs be you can cut the res flow a bit or raise prices on other stuff, but you already have the resource mechanic firmly in place, adding more minor costs is just fine tuning and can be done in many ways.
<!--quoteo(post=1837940:date=Mar 19 2011, 05:49 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Mar 19 2011, 05:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1837940"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While we do want strength in numbers to be the main factor, we don't force every marine to be the same; players have different strengths and weaknesses. This was even in NS1, though the actual choice was more up to the commander, rather than the individual as in NS2.
And I really can't see increasing numbers across the board for either team as preferable to adding a single new weapon or class.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah differences are good, but I don't see welders as a meaningful difference, I really don't agree with your assertion that a marine with a welder is a unique unit, in NS1 if you had welders generally loads of people had them, if a few people had them it didn't really matter who had them, only that your squad had one somewhere, and playing as one of the welder guys doesn't change your play, it just means you run around after every fight welding stuff, really it just adds an extra chore. If you want to you can still designate one guy to do that while everyone else sits around doing nothing, but I don't really see a reason to do so.
The main differences between marines are still going to be the exo, the jetpack, and the more exotic weapons. Your main classes for marines are going to be flamethrower guy, grenadelauncher guy, exo/minigunner guy, and jetpack guy (possibly combined with gl/flamer). In contrast to the fade, the onos, and the lerk. The gorge is replaced by the general marine ability to construct bases, and the skulk is the standard rifle marine.
If anything, marines have more roles than aliens, they just aren't as strictly separated, they go from role to role as appropriate, rather than picking one and doing it until they die.
We are MARINES goddamn it!
I for one wont pick one up, nor shall I stand around like a sitting duck while me & my comrade play 'you show me yours and I'll show you mine'!
We are MARINES goddamn it!
I for one wont pick one up, nor shall I stand around like a sitting duck while me & my comrade play 'you show me yours and I'll show you mine'!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Clearly you aren't familiar with the aliens marines.
Repairing circuit boards is an integral part of being a marine.
Repairing circuit boards is an integral part of being a marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But, we have MAC.
Why can't we just tell MAC to do it, and get on with the killing!!?
<!--quoteo(post=1838198:date=Mar 21 2011, 03:52 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Mar 21 2011, 03:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838198"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One pistol in a group of marines isn't important, the pistol itself isn't really important given that almost any other weapon is better than it, it's only really useful if you run out of shots and if you do that you're kinda dead, for long range sniping the rifle or the grenade launcher works fine, and with the flamer and the shotgun you shouldn't be sniping, get close and kill it with your obscenely powerful close range gun. It's only useful as a primary weapon if you are alone, and if you are alone why do you have a welder?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's... just not true. The pistol is insanely powerful for a "sidearm", and exchanging it for a support ability is a fair trade. There were pros in NS1 who would use it before their rifle since it was so accurate and kills skulks in like 4 shots. It still does all that.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also no, he doesn't. He is simply the guy with the welder at the moment, if he dies he is going to do so right next to you (assuming he is, as you say, welding people) and you can instantly pick the welder up. If it's really that much of a time consideration, nobody should be welding, they should all be killing whatever it is that's about to kill your entire squad.
In most cases you really don't want to be welding, you want to be killing stuff so that it stops doing damage, then you can weld at your leisure later.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's the thing though, even with a welder you'll be shooting and dodging aliens, and probably not standing next to your mates when you die.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All aliens do have a variant of healspray, they all regenerate and crags/hives are very easy to access, the gorge is not useful for healing really other than healing hives, most aliens heal fine from the many other sources available to them. The concentrated power of the gorge is mostly used to keep bases alive with defences and healing, not really for supporting attacks. Alien commanders do that far better with well placed crags around the level.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again that's just not true, and I was referring to the ability to heal others, not yourself. Which healspray doesn't do at this time in the beta, anyway.
Healspray (~5% a go) is MUCH faster at healing than any other source, be it natural, crags, or hives. Field gorges can speed up offensives a fair bit. They're not necessary, to be sure, but they help. Crags on the other hand heal a flat 10 every 2 seconds, which is useless for fades and marginally helpful for everything else, and of course crags are blown apart with ease by a marine with a shotgun who is chasing a wounded alien.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah differences are good, but I don't see welders as a meaningful difference, I really don't agree with your assertion that a marine with a welder is a unique unit, in NS1 if you had welders generally loads of people had them<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not unique, distinct. As in different from a marine without one. How about shotguns: a lot of people get them (and probably will even after they get nerfed, considering the combat ranges in NS), but it doesn't mean shotguns should be innate.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if a few people had them it didn't really matter who had them, only that your squad had one somewhere, and playing as one of the welder guys doesn't change your play, it just means you run around after every fight welding stuff, really it just adds an extra chore. If you want to you can still designate one guy to do that while everyone else sits around doing nothing, but I don't really see a reason to do so.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->It may be a chore to you, but I enjoy being helpful.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The main differences between marines are still going to be the exo, the jetpack, and the more exotic weapons. Your main classes for marines are going to be flamethrower guy, grenadelauncher guy, exo/minigunner guy, and jetpack guy (possibly combined with gl/flamer). In contrast to the fade, the onos, and the lerk. The gorge is replaced by the general marine ability to construct bases, and the skulk is the standard rifle marine.
If anything, marines have more roles than aliens, they just aren't as strictly separated, they go from role to role as appropriate, rather than picking one and doing it until they die.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So what is the problem with adding the welder guy as a role?
Having to give up your primary defense for a welder basically makes you a glorified, less controllable mac to babysit. Doesn't sound very fun, does it?
The whole point of welders, imo, is so you don't have to babysit macs/people.
But there may be some balance issues...how about ammo. I'm assuming that the welders work via nanotech as everything else in NS does, perhaps there is a limited supply of repair encoded nanobots available.
so, lose your pistol, and it requires ammo( perhaps two full heals, parallel upgrades with armour)