<!--quoteo(post=1838268:date=Mar 22 2011, 01:30 AM:name=Archaic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Archaic @ Mar 22 2011, 01:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838268"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Respectfully disagree with you there.
Having to give up your primary defense for a welder basically makes you a glorified, less controllable mac to babysit. Doesn't sound very fun, does it?
The whole point of welders, imo, is so you don't have to babysit macs/people.
But there may be some balance issues...how about ammo. I'm assuming that the welders work via nanotech as everything else in NS does, perhaps there is a limited supply of repair encoded nanobots available.
so, lose your pistol, and it requires ammo( perhaps two full heals, parallel upgrades with armour)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And that's the price you SHOULD pay. Picking up a welder should mean that you've became fully dedicated to supporting role (like Medic or Engineer in TF2). We absolutly must not allowing anybody becoming capable of doing everything at once, cause then there would be a lot less need for teamwork and strategy, which's what marine gameplay should be all about.
If anything, maybe the welder can come with a somewhat better handgun with a bit higher capacity and more spare magazines. Or have it as an attatchment for the starter assault rifle (like the grenade launcher), preventing the user from using stronger primary weapons. But either way, the one carrying the welder needs to suffer drawback in his primary firepower.
<!--quoteo(post=1838268:date=Mar 22 2011, 10:30 AM:name=Archaic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Archaic @ Mar 22 2011, 10:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838268"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Respectfully disagree with you there.
Having to give up your primary defense for a welder basically makes you a glorified, less controllable mac to babysit. Doesn't sound very fun, does it?
The whole point of welders, imo, is so you don't have to babysit macs/people.
But there may be some balance issues...how about ammo. I'm assuming that the welders work via nanotech as everything else in NS does, perhaps there is a limited supply of repair encoded nanobots available.
so, lose your pistol, and it requires ammo( perhaps two full heals, parallel upgrades with armour)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think babysitting is a large part of the marines role; This is essentially a game about good vesus evil.. And I'm against anything that encourages RAMBO techniques..
<!--quoteo(post=1838268:date=Mar 21 2011, 08:30 PM:name=Archaic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Archaic @ Mar 21 2011, 08:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838268"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Respectfully disagree with you there.
Having to give up your primary defense for a welder basically makes you a glorified, less controllable mac to babysit. Doesn't sound very fun, does it?
The whole point of welders, imo, is so you don't have to babysit macs/people.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm definitely not for giving up your primary weapon, but babysitting MACs/people is part of the marines role.
On a related note, is that sig Pro or Con MACs/Drifters? I thought I knew, but now...
<!--quoteo(post=1838297:date=Mar 22 2011, 06:48 AM:name=danshyu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (danshyu @ Mar 22 2011, 06:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838297"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We absolutly must not allowing anybody becoming capable of doing everything at once, cause then there would be a lot less need for teamwork and strategy, which's what marine gameplay should be all about.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hmm... but you'll still need someone covering your back while welding, since it requires you to look straight at whatever you're welding. Some buildings may let you see past them while doing so, but for the most part it's pretty risky. And of course, you can't repair your own armour.
<!--quoteo(post=1838208:date=Mar 21 2011, 04:30 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Mar 21 2011, 04:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838208"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's... just not true. The pistol is insanely powerful for a "sidearm", and exchanging it for a support ability is a fair trade. There were pros in NS1 who would use it before their rifle since it was so accurate and kills skulks in like 4 shots. It still does all that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good for them but for most people, the other guns are infinitely better. I have never seen someone in NS2 use the pistol except maybe if they are the only other person with me and it's the very start of the game. I use it a fair bit on my own, but that's because I'm on my own, and I'm not going to use a welder if i'm on my own.
The only reason to use the pistol for most people is if you need to save ammo for your better guns, which you generally don't need to do if you're in a group because the commander will give you ammo. Or if you're about to die and have nothing better to do than try to ineffectually kill a skulk at point blank with a pistol. As most people don't spend their entire lives learning to use the pistol as their primary weapon, this is not a meaningful tradeoff.
<!--quoteo(post=1838208:date=Mar 21 2011, 04:30 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Mar 21 2011, 04:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838208"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's the thing though, even with a welder you'll be shooting and dodging aliens, and probably not standing next to your mates when you die.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then I can go pick it up when everything is dead, either they are next to someone because welding is important and the welder will be immediately picked up, or they are somewhere else and obviously weren't needed very much.
<!--quoteo(post=1838208:date=Mar 21 2011, 04:30 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Mar 21 2011, 04:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838208"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Again that's just not true, and I was referring to the ability to heal others, not yourself. Which healspray doesn't do at this time in the beta, anyway. Healspray (~5% a go) is MUCH faster at healing than any other source, be it natural, crags, or hives. Field gorges can speed up offensives a fair bit. They're not necessary, to be sure, but they help. Crags on the other hand heal a flat 10 every 2 seconds, which is useless for fades and marginally helpful for everything else, and of course crags are blown apart with ease by a marine with a shotgun who is chasing a wounded alien.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm pretty sure crags heal faster than that, certainly you can be back up to full health within ten seconds or so as a fade most of the time. Either that or it's a combination of a crag, a hive, and innate regen or something, but I haven't ever been healed by a gorge and I have no issues finding health as an alien. Gorges really aren't needed in that role, although hives do benefit immensely from gorge healing because they have a million hitpoints and do heal very slowly from crags.
<!--quoteo(post=1838208:date=Mar 21 2011, 04:30 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Mar 21 2011, 04:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838208"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not unique, distinct. As in different from a marine without one. How about shotguns: a lot of people get them (and probably will even after they get nerfed, considering the combat ranges in NS), but it doesn't mean shotguns should be innate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because shotguns are an important unlock in the tech tree, they are the first weapon upgrade, without them you don't have a basic weapon upgrade, you have to wait until flamers or grenade launchers, shotguns are the all rounder gun, like lerks, they do everything the basic class does, but better. But the important thing here is that they cost money and time to get, they are the first bit of progression you get in the game, and progression is important.
<!--quoteo(post=1838208:date=Mar 21 2011, 04:30 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Mar 21 2011, 04:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838208"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It may be a chore to you, but I enjoy being helpful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can be even more helpful if I give you free welders all the time.
<!--quoteo(post=1838208:date=Mar 21 2011, 04:30 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Mar 21 2011, 04:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838208"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So what is the problem with adding the welder guy as a role?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because welders are a good mechanic, so don't restrict them. Having only a few people with welders simply means the mechanic isn't used much. There are really no balance issues with giving everyone a weak welder and welders don't serve any of the important roles above, they aren't a vital part of the tech progression, they aren't a meaningful tradeoff, and requiring people to buy them is just annoying. It'd be like having to buy your pistol when you start, kinda pointless.
<!--quoteo(post=1838390:date=Mar 22 2011, 11:41 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Mar 22 2011, 11:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838390"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Good for them but for most people, the other guns are infinitely better. I have never seen someone in NS2 use the pistol except maybe if they are the only other person with me and it's the very start of the game. I use it a fair bit on my own, but that's because I'm on my own, and I'm not going to use a welder if i'm on my own.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->That's that, then. Change of role. I guess if the pistol isn't valuable to you then of course you would disagree with it being a tradeoff; I just disagree on both points.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm pretty sure crags heal faster than that, certainly you can be back up to full health within ten seconds or so as a fade most of the time. Either that or it's a combination of a crag, a hive, and innate regen or something, but I haven't ever been healed by a gorge and I have no issues finding health as an alien. Gorges really aren't needed in that role, although hives do benefit immensely from gorge healing because they have a million hitpoints and do heal very slowly from crags.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->We're getting sidetracked, but crags really are that crappy at healing. They're a bit better than innate, but mostly it's because every bit adds up that they seem to help alongside hives. You save maybe 4 seconds with one at a hive when heading back to heal, and they're worthless for structures (all of which have several hundred hp).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because welders are a good mechanic, so don't restrict them. Having only a few people with welders simply means the mechanic isn't used much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I just don't see why this justifies that welders specifically should be omnipresent. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are really no balance issues with giving everyone a weak welder and welders don't serve any of the important roles above, they aren't a vital part of the tech progression, they aren't a meaningful tradeoff, and requiring people to buy them is just annoying. It'd be like having to buy your pistol when you start, kinda pointless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->No balance issues except for having to buff the entire alien team to compensate. Of course they don't serve any of the important roles above, they'd be a new different role. How wouldn't they be a vital part of tech progression if they are only available when you get an armoury and allow you to do things you can't do without them? If you had to buy your pistol when you start, a lot of people would choose not to do so, to save res or whatever. It wouldn't be a problem.
Having the welder as an attachment to the rifle means you are stuck with the weakest weapon in the game, but you are not defenseless. The pistol is certainly valuable, but its value varies wildly from player to player. For players that know that the pistol is powerful, and know how to use it, it is valuable - and replacing it with a welder is no small loss; but for most players (or almost all players in most situations) it simply is a back-up sidearm - and replacing it with a welder is no loss at all. Arguably, welder-as-rifle-attachment is less of a loss as you get to keep your pistol; however, just as you can have a shotgun/flamethrower/GL and a pistol, you can have a shotgun/flamethrower/GL and a welder - it is too lenient; so imo welder-as-rifle-attachment would be much more of a loss - and much more balanced. Like the welder-as-primary suggestion, it kind of pigeon-holes you into a support role, however, unlike that suggestion, it does so without leaving you utterly defenceless. I make this suggestion with the opinion that the welder should be a support tool, but through a support role, and not virtually omnipresent.
i like welders, i think they are important, especially when exo suits come around. a couple things would need to happen:
1. medpacks will have to stop restoring armor 2. welder needs to fill the exo/jetpack slot (explained below) and replace the switchaxe (like in NS1) 3. it needs to cost a lot, maybe as much as a flamethrower 4. can't get one if you're wearing an exosuit can't get one if you're wearing a jetpack (diversify the marine squad: exos, ground troops with flamers/welders, jetpacks with shotguns/gls)
this way, you'll have easily identifiable roles and exosuits and jetpackers will have to return to the marine gorge for welding. MACs can still weld but they remain defenseless.
just my 2 cents. i do want to see the welder return, welding doors and vents was a big strategy part of ns1. make them tier 2 (or 3) tech, make them cost alot, whatever.
I still don't see te purpose of welders and I agree with measles. To repead myself If medpacks only restore health, let a MAC do the armor repairing. So the commander has to take more care of the marines and the marines have to stick together and work togehter if they want to stay alive... which adds to teamplay again and it would add another reason to protect a MAC.
And it makes more sense in a logical way because if you weld a armor you need some welding wire to close the holes in it and I can't imagine that marines want to carry more weight then they already do . Besides, a MAC with its cubic head would have enough cargo space in it for welding wire.
I am against welders, but IF the welder gets implemented, <!--quoteo(post=1838495:date=Mar 23 2011, 08:06 AM:name=Tig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tig @ Mar 23 2011, 08:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838495"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->.....a couple things would need to happen: 1. medpacks will have to stop restoring armor 2. welder needs to fillt he exo/jetpack slot (explained below) and replace the switchaxe (like in NS1) 3. it needs to cost a lot, maybe as much as a flamethrower 4. can't get one if you're wearing an exosuit can't get one if you're wearing a jetpack (diversify the marine squad: exos, ground troops with flamers/welders, jetpacks with shotguns/gls)
(...) make them tier (..) 3 tech (and) make them cost alot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1833329:date=Feb 18 2011, 11:33 AM:name=xVisions)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xVisions @ Feb 18 2011, 11:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1833329"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(...) 5. Really(really) slow building repairing. 6. Can fix other players armor. 7. Can fix MACs 8. Cannot repair power nodes.(probably) (...)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 9. Some sort of energy system as ammo only letting it recharge while its pulled out, so hes pretty vulnerable.
i agree with tig...though i will miss heavy trains (best part of ns1 imo)
as for welders using wire: there is no need for wire when you have nanobots capable of stitching metal back together.
that being said, welders should have a limited amount of nanobots(ammo). These nanobots could self replicate (ammo recharges over time, like the engineer's tool in empires mod) or could be a limited resource (visit armoury to get more)
[edit] i would also like to add that i am against welders doing anything to DI and doing any damage what-so-ever
What exactly has changed so much in NS2 that it does not have a use for a welder ala NS1? Everything above except medpacks healing armor can be applied to NS1 as well, but that wasn't even discussed back then.
I would say the introduction of MACs but they are inadequate at doing anything to mobile players unlike a player with a welder.
<!--quoteo(post=1838605:date=Mar 24 2011, 01:52 AM:name=Svenpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Svenpa @ Mar 24 2011, 01:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838605"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would say the introduction of MACs but they are inadequate at doing anything to mobile players unlike a player with a welder.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats right. Because of that, I would like to see a MAC upgrade instead of a welder:
<!--quoteo(post=1838609:date=Mar 24 2011, 01:59 AM:name=Papayas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Papayas @ Mar 24 2011, 01:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838609"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><u>What about if the MAC could get an upgrade that would allow it to repair the armour of marines?</u>
<!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->Good points about this:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
-It would connect the commander with his marines
<!--coloro:#FFFFFF--><span style="color:#FFFFFF"><!--/coloro--> Netrual points about this:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
-It would make the MACs more useful -It would allow the MAC to have an attacking role
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Bad points about this:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
-MAC stacks could easily repair a H.E.X.O to full armour in a second<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1838605:date=Mar 24 2011, 10:52 AM:name=Svenpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Svenpa @ Mar 24 2011, 10:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838605"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What exactly has changed so much in NS2 that it does not have a use for a welder ala NS1? Everything above except medpacks healing armor can be applied to NS1 as well, but that wasn't even discussed back then.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think it's more that we have the chance to uproot some old beliefs without badly affecting a tenuously balanced game.
I do like the idea of welders but I don't see them fit in with NS2.
MACs basically replace the welder but they obviously have a few drawbacks.
Think about it this way:
You are a marine and you have a 'good' commander. Think of the MACs that he sends around as the marines that had welders in NS1. MACs are basically the commander and welders are basically MACs.
If you look at MACs and think "That is basically the marines in NS1 who had welders" then you won't really see that much of a need with the welders.
If MACs fulfill the 'Repiaring armour' thing that the welders could do then there won't be any need to welders.
Shilorous quoted my thoughts of the welder and the MAC.
<!--quoteo(post=1838555:date=Mar 23 2011, 07:00 PM:name=Shilorius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shilorius @ Mar 23 2011, 07:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838555"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If medpacks only restore health, let a MAC do the armor repairing. So the commander has to take more care of the marines and the marines have to stick together and work togehter if they want to stay alive... which adds to teamplay again and it would add another reason to protect a MAC.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agree. This would be especially poignant if a Commander were limited to having 1 or 2 MACs out any given time, which is the direction I think it needs to go to further encourage teamplay and also justify multiple comms. There should be at least some things the MAC can do exclusively, so that ground units are reliant on the MAC and by extension the Commander.
Just 1 MAC sounds pretty neat in general. That could also provide an interesting contrast between alien/marine comm, as well as from your typical RTS game.
I think 1 MAC maximum per-CC would be fine, as long as you allowed no cost and no buy time for new MACs. Or at the very worst, have a cooldown*. *You may instantly build a MAC, which resets the cooldown, but once the cooldown is complete, you can again instantly build a MAC, which will in turn reset the cooldown once again.
i suppose macs would be alright, IF they can be sent through phasegates and have a proper AI so they can weld moving players/arcs/macs
i like hari's idea regarding macs, but it makes t3 pushes a little too vulnerable if you don't have multiple commanders. Unless he meant that one commander can control ALL macs, just that the number is limited.
<!--quoteo(post=1838742:date=Mar 25 2011, 12:10 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Mar 25 2011, 12:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838742"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think 1 MAC maximum per-CC would be fine, as long as you allowed no cost and no buy time for new MACs. Or at the very worst, have a cooldown*. *You may instantly build a MAC, which resets the cooldown, but once the cooldown is complete, you can again instantly build a MAC, which will in turn reset the cooldown once again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> In my ideal NS2, Energy costs are replaced with Personal Res, and any abilities requiring Personal Res have a per-commander cooldown.
<!--quoteo(post=1838484:date=Mar 23 2011, 02:58 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Mar 23 2011, 02:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838484"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Having the welder as an attachment to the rifle means you are stuck with the weakest weapon in the game, but you are not defenseless. The pistol is certainly valuable, but its value varies wildly from player to player. For players that know that the pistol is powerful, and know how to use it, it is valuable - and replacing it with a welder is no small loss; but for most players (or almost all players in most situations) it simply is a back-up sidearm - and replacing it with a welder is no loss at all. Arguably, welder-as-rifle-attachment is less of a loss as you get to keep your pistol; however, just as you can have a shotgun/flamethrower/GL and a pistol, you can have a shotgun/flamethrower/GL and a welder - it is too lenient; so imo welder-as-rifle-attachment would be much more of a loss - and much more balanced. Like the welder-as-primary suggestion, it kind of pigeon-holes you into a support role, however, unlike that suggestion, it does so without leaving you utterly defenceless. I make this suggestion with the opinion that the welder should be a support tool, but through a support role, and not virtually omnipresent.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Welder as a rifle attachment is more of a loss because it means you have to use the rifle.
You are sacrificing your primary weapon instead of your pistol.
Swap out the pistol and I can take a welder and a shotgun, attach it to the rifle and I am never ever going to use the welder.
I know it's more of a loss. Wasn't that my point? (Makes me think you didn't read my post through.) Replacing the pistol isn't much of a loss, really. It's too little of a loss. I don't want it to be almost the exact same as NS1, because if you let it be that way, you might as well remove MACs since ANY marine AT ALL TIMES can do all of a MAC's jobs much better. There has to be a bigger trade-off.
@Archaic: Yeah, any commander can control any or all of the macs, same as it is now. 2 per chair may be good too. I just think that if you do limit the number of MACs, they have to be easily replaced. At the very least, remove the cost. Maybe also remove the construction time - or set a cooldown instead of a construction time. Maybe increase their survivability (speed or health).
What about early-game infestation removal? Necessary, or valid punishment for expanding too slow (can't build on infested tech points -> can't tech up -> can't get flamers)?
<!--quoteo(post=1839050:date=Mar 28 2011, 09:00 AM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Mar 28 2011, 09:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1839050"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In any case...
What about early-game infestation removal? Necessary, or valid punishment for expanding too slow (can't build on infested tech points -> can't tech up -> can't get flamers)?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you can build a command chair on infestation. found that out the hard way. but what seems to be popular among skilled alien commanders is to cover the closest resource nodes to marine start immediately thus res starving marines.
not sure if this should be addressed or not, i'm thinking not.
<!--quoteo(post=1839050:date=Mar 28 2011, 10:00 AM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Mar 28 2011, 10:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1839050"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In any case...
What about early-game infestation removal? Necessary, or valid punishment for expanding too slow (can't build on infested tech points -> can't tech up -> can't get flamers)?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think making it a valid punishment not only adds gameplay asymmetry, but further enforces the Kharaa concept of an constantly spreading bacteria. Sort of how in StarCraft II, where <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>on any Campaign map with the Zerg (at least for me on the Hard difficulty), time is always running out, and you can only temporarily delay being overwhelmed. By the end of the level the map is infested and you typically just barely escape.</span>
But what I think would be a better fix for all of this: Infestation spreads where it wants, except directly above a Tech Point or Res Node. Upon building a Power Node in a previously unpowered room, infestation directly above Res Nodes and Tech Points is removed, and any Hive or Harvester in the now-powered room becomes inactive (under the logic that when powered by the Nanogrid, the Kharaa cannot hijack the technology). Assuming DI is overhauled as planned, any infestation originating from the then "unplugged" Hive would die as well. This way DI is still largely uninhibited, but not inescapable.
<!--quoteo(post=1838863:date=Mar 25 2011, 09:32 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Mar 25 2011, 09:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838863"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I know it's more of a loss. Wasn't that my point? (Makes me think you didn't read my post through.) Replacing the pistol isn't much of a loss, really. It's too little of a loss. I don't want it to be almost the exact same as NS1, because if you let it be that way, you might as well remove MACs since ANY marine AT ALL TIMES can do all of a MAC's jobs much better. There has to be a bigger trade-off.
@Archaic: Yeah, any commander can control any or all of the macs, same as it is now. 2 per chair may be good too. I just think that if you do limit the number of MACs, they have to be easily replaced. At the very least, remove the cost. Maybe also remove the construction time - or set a cooldown instead of a construction time. Maybe increase their survivability (speed or health).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd say I'm for both the mac cap, ( 2 per with low/free cost) and for the welder (personally I like the support role without needing to become a full commander) being a rifle module so you can still defend yourself but you've paid a price to take on that support role and also to keep the whole team from suddenly being able to weld in one fell swoop.
As for the argument that you have to have one or the other: mac or marine with welding.. why? Options aren't necessarily bad.. and with the limitations of the rifle module idea it'd not be the go-to choice in every situation, so neither would become invalidated.. options allow for varied strategy after all as well so that's a bonus in my book rather than a minus.
As a tacked on thought to the welder module idea.. it'd limit welders to light armored marines as well, though that still leaves you the option of a jet-pack so it really isn't actually much of a loss in that area. Just perhaps another just limitation to it's use I'd honestly prefer.. it'd keep things varied that's for sure.. rather than the usual all HA or JP rushes you tended to see more often than not in NS1.
How about a way for marines to stare at something which needs welding, and presses a "requesting-a-weld" key, which allows the com to know where to send a mac. And perhaps the com can delegate a mac to automatically respond to all requests (where a new mac is auto-spawned as necessary).
Comments
Having to give up your primary defense for a welder basically makes you a glorified, less controllable mac to babysit. Doesn't sound very fun, does it?
The whole point of welders, imo, is so you don't have to babysit macs/people.
But there may be some balance issues...how about ammo. I'm assuming that the welders work via nanotech as everything else in NS does, perhaps there is a limited supply of repair encoded nanobots available.
so, lose your pistol, and it requires ammo( perhaps two full heals, parallel upgrades with armour)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And that's the price you SHOULD pay. Picking up a welder should mean that you've became fully dedicated to supporting role (like Medic or Engineer in TF2). We absolutly must not allowing anybody becoming capable of doing everything at once, cause then there would be a lot less need for teamwork and strategy, which's what marine gameplay should be all about.
If anything, maybe the welder can come with a somewhat better handgun with a bit higher capacity and more spare magazines. Or have it as an attatchment for the starter assault rifle (like the grenade launcher), preventing the user from using stronger primary weapons. But either way, the one carrying the welder needs to suffer drawback in his primary firepower.
Having to give up your primary defense for a welder basically makes you a glorified, less controllable mac to babysit. Doesn't sound very fun, does it?
The whole point of welders, imo, is so you don't have to babysit macs/people.
But there may be some balance issues...how about ammo. I'm assuming that the welders work via nanotech as everything else in NS does, perhaps there is a limited supply of repair encoded nanobots available.
so, lose your pistol, and it requires ammo( perhaps two full heals, parallel upgrades with armour)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think babysitting is a large part of the marines role;
This is essentially a game about good vesus evil.. And I'm against anything that encourages RAMBO techniques..
Having to give up your primary defense for a welder basically makes you a glorified, less controllable mac to babysit. Doesn't sound very fun, does it?
The whole point of welders, imo, is so you don't have to babysit macs/people.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm definitely not for giving up your primary weapon, but babysitting MACs/people is part of the marines role.
On a related note, is that sig Pro or Con MACs/Drifters? I thought I knew, but now...
A defenseless marine is a dead marine. What you suggest is equivalent to running out of ammo, permanently.
Hmm... but you'll still need someone covering your back while welding, since it requires you to look straight at whatever you're welding. Some buildings may let you see past them while doing so, but for the most part it's pretty risky.
And of course, you can't repair your own armour.
Good for them but for most people, the other guns are infinitely better. I have never seen someone in NS2 use the pistol except maybe if they are the only other person with me and it's the very start of the game. I use it a fair bit on my own, but that's because I'm on my own, and I'm not going to use a welder if i'm on my own.
The only reason to use the pistol for most people is if you need to save ammo for your better guns, which you generally don't need to do if you're in a group because the commander will give you ammo. Or if you're about to die and have nothing better to do than try to ineffectually kill a skulk at point blank with a pistol. As most people don't spend their entire lives learning to use the pistol as their primary weapon, this is not a meaningful tradeoff.
<!--quoteo(post=1838208:date=Mar 21 2011, 04:30 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Mar 21 2011, 04:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838208"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's the thing though, even with a welder you'll be shooting and dodging aliens, and probably not standing next to your mates when you die.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then I can go pick it up when everything is dead, either they are next to someone because welding is important and the welder will be immediately picked up, or they are somewhere else and obviously weren't needed very much.
<!--quoteo(post=1838208:date=Mar 21 2011, 04:30 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Mar 21 2011, 04:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838208"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Again that's just not true, and I was referring to the ability to heal others, not yourself. Which healspray doesn't do at this time in the beta, anyway.
Healspray (~5% a go) is MUCH faster at healing than any other source, be it natural, crags, or hives. Field gorges can speed up offensives a fair bit. They're not necessary, to be sure, but they help. Crags on the other hand heal a flat 10 every 2 seconds, which is useless for fades and marginally helpful for everything else, and of course crags are blown apart with ease by a marine with a shotgun who is chasing a wounded alien.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm pretty sure crags heal faster than that, certainly you can be back up to full health within ten seconds or so as a fade most of the time. Either that or it's a combination of a crag, a hive, and innate regen or something, but I haven't ever been healed by a gorge and I have no issues finding health as an alien. Gorges really aren't needed in that role, although hives do benefit immensely from gorge healing because they have a million hitpoints and do heal very slowly from crags.
<!--quoteo(post=1838208:date=Mar 21 2011, 04:30 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Mar 21 2011, 04:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838208"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not unique, distinct. As in different from a marine without one. How about shotguns: a lot of people get them (and probably will even after they get nerfed, considering the combat ranges in NS), but it doesn't mean shotguns should be innate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because shotguns are an important unlock in the tech tree, they are the first weapon upgrade, without them you don't have a basic weapon upgrade, you have to wait until flamers or grenade launchers, shotguns are the all rounder gun, like lerks, they do everything the basic class does, but better. But the important thing here is that they cost money and time to get, they are the first bit of progression you get in the game, and progression is important.
<!--quoteo(post=1838208:date=Mar 21 2011, 04:30 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Mar 21 2011, 04:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838208"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It may be a chore to you, but I enjoy being helpful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can be even more helpful if I give you free welders all the time.
<!--quoteo(post=1838208:date=Mar 21 2011, 04:30 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Mar 21 2011, 04:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838208"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So what is the problem with adding the welder guy as a role?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because welders are a good mechanic, so don't restrict them. Having only a few people with welders simply means the mechanic isn't used much. There are really no balance issues with giving everyone a weak welder and welders don't serve any of the important roles above, they aren't a vital part of the tech progression, they aren't a meaningful tradeoff, and requiring people to buy them is just annoying. It'd be like having to buy your pistol when you start, kinda pointless.
I guess if the pistol isn't valuable to you then of course you would disagree with it being a tradeoff; I just disagree on both points.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm pretty sure crags heal faster than that, certainly you can be back up to full health within ten seconds or so as a fade most of the time. Either that or it's a combination of a crag, a hive, and innate regen or something, but I haven't ever been healed by a gorge and I have no issues finding health as an alien. Gorges really aren't needed in that role, although hives do benefit immensely from gorge healing because they have a million hitpoints and do heal very slowly from crags.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->We're getting sidetracked, but crags really are that crappy at healing. They're a bit better than innate, but mostly it's because every bit adds up that they seem to help alongside hives. You save maybe 4 seconds with one at a hive when heading back to heal, and they're worthless for structures (all of which have several hundred hp).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because welders are a good mechanic, so don't restrict them. Having only a few people with welders simply means the mechanic isn't used much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I just don't see why this justifies that welders specifically should be omnipresent.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are really no balance issues with giving everyone a weak welder and welders don't serve any of the important roles above, they aren't a vital part of the tech progression, they aren't a meaningful tradeoff, and requiring people to buy them is just annoying. It'd be like having to buy your pistol when you start, kinda pointless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->No balance issues except for having to buff the entire alien team to compensate. Of course they don't serve any of the important roles above, they'd be a new different role.
How wouldn't they be a vital part of tech progression if they are only available when you get an armoury and allow you to do things you can't do without them?
If you had to buy your pistol when you start, a lot of people would choose not to do so, to save res or whatever. It wouldn't be a problem.
The pistol is certainly valuable, but its value varies wildly from player to player. For players that know that the pistol is powerful, and know how to use it, it is valuable - and replacing it with a welder is no small loss; but for most players (or almost all players in most situations) it simply is a back-up sidearm - and replacing it with a welder is no loss at all.
Arguably, welder-as-rifle-attachment is less of a loss as you get to keep your pistol; however, just as you can have a shotgun/flamethrower/GL and a pistol, you can have a shotgun/flamethrower/GL and a welder - it is too lenient; so imo welder-as-rifle-attachment would be much more of a loss - and much more balanced.
Like the welder-as-primary suggestion, it kind of pigeon-holes you into a support role, however, unlike that suggestion, it does so without leaving you utterly defenceless.
I make this suggestion with the opinion that the welder should be a support tool, but through a support role, and not virtually omnipresent.
1. medpacks will have to stop restoring armor
2. welder needs to fill the exo/jetpack slot (explained below) and replace the switchaxe (like in NS1)
3. it needs to cost a lot, maybe as much as a flamethrower
4. can't get one if you're wearing an exosuit
can't get one if you're wearing a jetpack
(diversify the marine squad: exos, ground troops with flamers/welders, jetpacks with shotguns/gls)
this way, you'll have easily identifiable roles and exosuits and jetpackers will have to return to the marine gorge for welding. MACs can still weld but they remain defenseless.
just my 2 cents. i do want to see the welder return, welding doors and vents was a big strategy part of ns1. make them tier 2 (or 3) tech, make them cost alot, whatever.
edit: speeling
To repead myself
If medpacks only restore health, let a MAC do the armor repairing.
So the commander has to take more care of the marines and the marines have to stick together and work togehter if they want to stay alive... which adds to teamplay again
and it would add another reason to protect a MAC.
And it makes more sense in a logical way because if you weld a armor you need some welding wire to close the holes in it and I can't imagine that marines want to carry more weight then they already do .
Besides, a MAC with its cubic head would have enough cargo space in it for welding wire.
I am against welders,
but IF the welder gets implemented,
<!--quoteo(post=1838495:date=Mar 23 2011, 08:06 AM:name=Tig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tig @ Mar 23 2011, 08:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838495"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->.....a couple things would need to happen:
1. medpacks will have to stop restoring armor
2. welder needs to fillt he exo/jetpack slot (explained below) and replace the switchaxe (like in NS1)
3. it needs to cost a lot, maybe as much as a flamethrower
4. can't get one if you're wearing an exosuit
can't get one if you're wearing a jetpack
(diversify the marine squad: exos, ground troops with flamers/welders, jetpacks with shotguns/gls)
(...)
make them tier (..) 3 tech (and) make them cost alot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1833329:date=Feb 18 2011, 11:33 AM:name=xVisions)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xVisions @ Feb 18 2011, 11:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1833329"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(...)
5. Really(really) slow building repairing.
6. Can fix other players armor.
7. Can fix MACs
8. Cannot repair power nodes.(probably)
(...)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
9. Some sort of energy system as ammo only letting it recharge while its pulled out, so hes pretty vulnerable.
----
Edit:
10. Welder does not do any damage.
(I agree with archaic, see next post )
|
v
as for welders using wire: there is no need for wire when you have nanobots capable of stitching metal back together.
that being said, welders should have a limited amount of nanobots(ammo). These nanobots could self replicate (ammo recharges over time, like the engineer's tool in empires mod) or could be a limited resource (visit armoury to get more)
[edit] i would also like to add that i am against welders doing anything to DI and doing any damage what-so-ever
I would say the introduction of MACs but they are inadequate at doing anything to mobile players unlike a player with a welder.
Thats right.
Because of that, I would like to see a MAC upgrade instead of a welder:
<!--quoteo(post=1838609:date=Mar 24 2011, 01:59 AM:name=Papayas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Papayas @ Mar 24 2011, 01:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838609"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><u>What about if the MAC could get an upgrade that would allow it to repair the armour of marines?</u>
<!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->Good points about this:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
-It would connect the commander with his marines
<!--coloro:#FFFFFF--><span style="color:#FFFFFF"><!--/coloro-->
Netrual points about this:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
-It would make the MACs more useful
-It would allow the MAC to have an attacking role
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Bad points about this:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
-MAC stacks could easily repair a H.E.X.O to full armour in a second<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it's more that we have the chance to uproot some old beliefs without badly affecting a tenuously balanced game.
MACs basically replace the welder but they obviously have a few drawbacks.
Think about it this way:
You are a marine and you have a 'good' commander. Think of the MACs that he sends around as the marines that had welders in NS1. MACs are basically the commander and welders are basically MACs.
If you look at MACs and think "That is basically the marines in NS1 who had welders" then you won't really see that much of a need with the welders.
If MACs fulfill the 'Repiaring armour' thing that the welders could do then there won't be any need to welders.
Shilorous quoted my thoughts of the welder and the MAC.
<!--quoteo(post=1838619:date=Mar 24 2011, 11:17 AM:name=Shilorius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shilorius @ Mar 24 2011, 11:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838619"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Quote<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So the commander has to take more care of the marines and the marines have to stick together and work togehter if they want to stay alive... which adds to teamplay again
and it would add another reason to protect a MAC.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agree. This would be especially poignant if a Commander were limited to having 1 or 2 MACs out any given time, which is the direction I think it needs to go to further encourage teamplay and also justify multiple comms. There should be at least some things the MAC can do exclusively, so that ground units are reliant on the MAC and by extension the Commander.
*You may instantly build a MAC, which resets the cooldown, but once the cooldown is complete, you can again instantly build a MAC, which will in turn reset the cooldown once again.
i like hari's idea regarding macs, but it makes t3 pushes a little too vulnerable if you don't have multiple commanders. Unless he meant that one commander can control ALL macs, just that the number is limited.
*You may instantly build a MAC, which resets the cooldown, but once the cooldown is complete, you can again instantly build a MAC, which will in turn reset the cooldown once again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In my ideal NS2, Energy costs are replaced with Personal Res, and any abilities requiring Personal Res have a per-commander cooldown.
The pistol is certainly valuable, but its value varies wildly from player to player. For players that know that the pistol is powerful, and know how to use it, it is valuable - and replacing it with a welder is no small loss; but for most players (or almost all players in most situations) it simply is a back-up sidearm - and replacing it with a welder is no loss at all.
Arguably, welder-as-rifle-attachment is less of a loss as you get to keep your pistol; however, just as you can have a shotgun/flamethrower/GL and a pistol, you can have a shotgun/flamethrower/GL and a welder - it is too lenient; so imo welder-as-rifle-attachment would be much more of a loss - and much more balanced.
Like the welder-as-primary suggestion, it kind of pigeon-holes you into a support role, however, unlike that suggestion, it does so without leaving you utterly defenceless.
I make this suggestion with the opinion that the welder should be a support tool, but through a support role, and not virtually omnipresent.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Welder as a rifle attachment is more of a loss because it means you have to use the rifle.
You are sacrificing your primary weapon instead of your pistol.
Swap out the pistol and I can take a welder and a shotgun, attach it to the rifle and I am never ever going to use the welder.
@Archaic: Yeah, any commander can control any or all of the macs, same as it is now. 2 per chair may be good too.
I just think that if you do limit the number of MACs, they have to be easily replaced. At the very least, remove the cost. Maybe also remove the construction time - or set a cooldown instead of a construction time. Maybe increase their survivability (speed or health).
What about early-game infestation removal? Necessary, or valid punishment for expanding too slow (can't build on infested tech points -> can't tech up -> can't get flamers)?
What about early-game infestation removal? Necessary, or valid punishment for expanding too slow (can't build on infested tech points -> can't tech up -> can't get flamers)?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you can build a command chair on infestation. found that out the hard way. but what seems to be popular among skilled alien commanders is to cover the closest resource nodes to marine start immediately thus res starving marines.
not sure if this should be addressed or not, i'm thinking not.
What about early-game infestation removal? Necessary, or valid punishment for expanding too slow (can't build on infested tech points -> can't tech up -> can't get flamers)?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think making it a valid punishment not only adds gameplay asymmetry, but further enforces the Kharaa concept of an constantly spreading bacteria. Sort of how in StarCraft II, where <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>on any Campaign map with the Zerg (at least for me on the Hard difficulty), time is always running out, and you can only temporarily delay being overwhelmed. By the end of the level the map is infested and you typically just barely escape.</span>
But what I think would be a better fix for all of this: Infestation spreads where it wants, except directly above a Tech Point or Res Node. Upon building a Power Node in a previously unpowered room, infestation directly above Res Nodes and Tech Points is removed, and any Hive or Harvester in the now-powered room becomes inactive (under the logic that when powered by the Nanogrid, the Kharaa cannot hijack the technology). Assuming DI is overhauled as planned, any infestation originating from the then "unplugged" Hive would die as well. This way DI is still largely uninhibited, but not inescapable.
@Archaic: Yeah, any commander can control any or all of the macs, same as it is now. 2 per chair may be good too.
I just think that if you do limit the number of MACs, they have to be easily replaced. At the very least, remove the cost. Maybe also remove the construction time - or set a cooldown instead of a construction time. Maybe increase their survivability (speed or health).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd say I'm for both the mac cap, ( 2 per with low/free cost) and for the welder (personally I like the support role without needing to become a full commander) being a rifle module so you can still defend yourself but you've paid a price to take on that support role and also to keep the whole team from suddenly being able to weld in one fell swoop.
As for the argument that you have to have one or the other: mac or marine with welding.. why? Options aren't necessarily bad.. and with the limitations of the rifle module idea it'd not be the go-to choice in every situation, so neither would become invalidated.. options allow for varied strategy after all as well so that's a bonus in my book rather than a minus.
As a tacked on thought to the welder module idea.. it'd limit welders to light armored marines as well, though that still leaves you the option of a jet-pack so it really isn't actually much of a loss in that area. Just perhaps another just limitation to it's use I'd honestly prefer.. it'd keep things varied that's for sure.. rather than the usual all HA or JP rushes you tended to see more often than not in NS1.
If you need the marines to be able to do something like welding, add it to their E key.
Why do I need to take up a weapon slot with it, and why do I need to buy the weapon?