<!--quoteo(post=1838163:date=Mar 21 2011, 07:40 AM:name=measles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (measles @ Mar 21 2011, 07:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838163"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Currently the Extractor (Marine) have 6000 hp and 250 armour. Totalling in that the Extractor has 6500 hp. <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->It is made of METAL<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
The Havester (Alien) has 2000 hp and 250 armour. Totalling in that the Havester has 2500 hp. <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->it is made of FLESH<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One of them is made of metal and one of them is made of flesh... And your point is?
I am going to give you what I think of this, how about that?
1. All because the marines structures are made of metal and the alien structures are made of flesh DOES NOT mean that the game cannot be balanced.
2. All of the aliens are made of flesh, and yet the marines are coated in metal, there isn't really much of an unbalance there though.
3. THIS IS A GAME! This is a game set in the future. I don't think any species can get inside of a big alien and tell other aliens what to do is possible, I certainly can't do it. This is just a game where any is possible (To some extent)
4. Most of the Alien structures have some sort of bone/rock skin type thing.
Personnally, I find your comment stupid. All because that is what it is like in real life does not mean that that is what it is going to be like in the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1838632:date=Mar 24 2011, 09:55 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Mar 24 2011, 09:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838632"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>/</b> as in <b>or</b>, <u>not</u> <b>divide</b>. Or did you know that already?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I was reading it damage-per-second over time, but was ultimately just screwing with you :)
<!--quoteo(post=1838632:date=Mar 24 2011, 09:55 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Mar 24 2011, 09:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838632"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What I'm proposing is the following: <!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->If target = player deal x damage elseif target = structure deal y damage end<!--c2--></div><!--ec2--> and the idea is that, for any <b>standard</b> weapon: rifle, shotgun, axe; the dps <b>against structures</b> (y) is the same (or very very similar). [...] Same for the alien side: skulk bite, lerk spikes, fade slash, etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is interesting, although I think it may just dumb down the tactical elements of certain classes. If I did the same damage to a structure as a lerk than a fade would, I think I would always prefer to hide in a corner as a Lerk and kill something from as far away as I can, which seems rather unbalanced. Of course then we could have different anti-structure damages for ranged and melee attacks, but then we're almost back where we started. Honestly I think the values just need some tweaking.
<!--quoteo(post=1838657:date=Mar 24 2011, 01:41 PM:name=Papayas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Papayas @ Mar 24 2011, 01:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838657"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2. All of the aliens are made of flesh, and yet the marines are coated in metal, there isn't really much of an unbalance there though.
4. Most of the Alien structures have some sort of bone/rock skin type thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> On this note (and I apologize for going off topic), it would be interesting (and make sense) if Aliens generally had more health than armor, while Marine structures had significantly more Armor than health (Using the same effective HPs: Extractors: 2000 Health + 2250 Armor = 6500 HP; Harvesters: 2000 Health + 250 Armor = 2500 HP). Destroying a Power Node could then remove nearby Marine structure Armor, making Marine structures as vulnerable as the Kharaa when they are un-powered. This would encourage the destruction of Power Nodes in Marine territory over all else.
But that's the thing, you change the values of an attack (to make the dps more consistent with other attacks), but then you have to change the values of player health. <b>In doing so</b>, you would also make dps <u>against players</u> very similar, which is probably not good.
And well, of course you don't have to have the dps exactly the same for each weapon. As you say, ranged abilities could have a lower dps <u>against structures</u>, possibly half or less.
Basically you're splitting the RTS component (damage over time against structures) from the FPS component (damage over time against players) so that you can balance both of them well - by balancing each of them individually.
What this could mean, is that Weapon X can be just as effective against players as it is now, but not so over-powered against structures like it is now. If you had only increased the health of structures, then Weapon Y would be less effective against structures, which is no good. If you had only decreased the damage of Weapon X, then Weapon X would be less effective against players, which is no good.
<!--quoteo(post=1838737:date=Mar 24 2011, 11:36 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Mar 24 2011, 11:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838737"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Basically you're splitting the RTS component (damage over time against structures) from the FPS component (damage over time against players) so that you can balance both of them well - by balancing each of them individually.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That cleared it up perfectly for me. Didn't look at it from that angle. I think I may be on board with you now ;)
Every alien/weapon should have a rock-paper-scissors basis.
Lone Skulk should be able to defeat lone Assault Rifle, especially if ambushed. But skillful Marine with Assault Rifle against bad Skulk should be fine. Shotgun should be advantageous against Skulks, but the cost of shotgun should be high enough so that if you only manage to kill 2 Skulks with shotgun, you will have wasted your money.
Shotgun should be even with Fades such that it becomes the only realistic way to take one down without 3-4 Assault Rifle friends.
Assault Rifle should be even with Lerk. <b>Shotgun should be useless against Lerk.</b> <b>Shotgun should be useless against Lerk.</b>
Everything should be strong against Gorge, but the Hydras should be more useful. Gorge should also have some sort of niche skill that makes it worthwhile to have a couple per team.
It should take 4 people working together with more than one type of weapon to kill Onos, but the cost of becoming an Onos should be much more than the cost of 4 people. When you see an Onos, it should be like the first time you see a tank in Battlefield 1942 and realize bullets are useless (you run away until you have enough buddies and a grenades). Successful strategy against Onos would be to (1) run away, (2) have one friend set it on fire, (3) lob grenades and (4) kill supporting aliens.
Flamethrower should be good against 'structures' and OK against everything. But it should be expensive enough that it is not worth buying it just to take out aliens.
Grenade Launcher for taking down Onos and as support. Should be difficult to master, breaking alien camping stalemate and mostly for lols.
If anything, it should matter much more how skilled you are as a player as much as which weapon/alien you have. A smart player with an Assault Rifle should be able to take down everything except Onos, the main benefit is that it doesn't cost anything to have an Assault Rifle, whereas the aliens will use their resources and time transforming.
<u><b>Ideally</b></u>, it should be (as a marine):
1) Do I see a Skulk? - I should be OK with an Assault Rifle, as long as I am skilled. Otherwise wait for backup. 2) Do I see a Lerk? - Assault Rifle is fine, even if I die twice before killing it, I caused the Lerk to waste resources. 3) Do I see a Fade? - Get a Shotgun. Even if I die twice before killing it, I caused the Fade to waste resources. 4) Do I see a Gorge? - Keep whatever weapon I have and kill it before it makes buildings. 5) Do I see buildings? - Buy a flamethrower. 6) Do I see an Onos? - Run away. - Wait for squad. - Buy a flamethrower, set on fire. - Buy a grenade launcher, blow up. - Even if 4 of us die, I caused the Onos to waste resources. 7) Are all the aliens just sitting in the room camping? - Buy a grenade launcher.
<u><b>Actual NS2</b></u>:
1) Do I see a Skulk? - Buy a shotgun. 2) Do I see a Lerk? - Buy a shotgun. 3) Do I see a Fade? - Buy a shotgun. 4) Do I see a Gorge? - Buy a shotgun. 5) Do I see buildings? - Buy a shotgun. 6) Do I see an Onos? (If you do, then you are not playing the right game or you are cheating) 7) Are all the aliens just sitting in the room camping? - Buy a shotgun.
What do you want? A shotgun that is only effective against fades and doesnt hurt the smaller ones? - Does this sound right to you? The only thing that needs balance is personal res, so there are not 10 fades or shotgunners at the same time around - and if they die they just come back with another shotgun/same lifeform.
Higher lifeforms, weapons must have high value and should be keept alive aslong as possible(you will be able to drop and pickup weapons - so if a marines dies... they should want to keep his rifle "alive" so res is not wasted) - sure there is still some finetuning(dmg and specials effects like flamethrower dot etc.) needed, but you cant say uwe is not behind it... This kind of balance cant be done perfectly yet - since there is still a lot missing.
<!--quoteo(post=1839225:date=Mar 30 2011, 02:28 AM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Mar 30 2011, 02:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1839225"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What do you want? A shotgun that is only effective against fades and doesnt hurt the smaller ones? - Does this sound right to you?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. Yes it does. One way to implement this is to give shotgun armor-piercing and just make the Fade have armor but with less health. Otherwise shotgun should be just mediocre against 'fleshy' aliens like Lerk and Skulk.
1) Decrease health of Fade. 2) Give Fade armor bonus against most weapons. 3) Decrease shotgun damage and range. 4) Give shotgun armor-piercing so that it does 'normal' damage to Fade.
There. I solved all of your 'realism' issues since this game is definitely a 'realism shooter' according to this forum.
I disagree entirely. There should be no such hard counters, ever. I don't think it's a good idea for a <b>shooter</b> to have confrontations won or lost before the actual confrontation takes place - it'd work in a pure RTS, but for a shooter that's just unfun balancing.
<!--quoteo(post=1839258:date=Mar 30 2011, 04:48 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Mar 30 2011, 04:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1839258"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I disagree entirely. There should be no such hard counters, ever. I don't think it's a good idea for a <b>shooter</b> to have confrontations won or lost before the actual confrontation takes place - it'd work in a pure RTS, but for a shooter that's just unfun balancing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you propose that the current way the game is now, that a Fade vs. Shotgun is a confrontation based on talent?
<!--quoteo(post=1839280:date=Mar 30 2011, 02:30 AM:name=ChrisJustinParr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChrisJustinParr @ Mar 30 2011, 02:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1839280"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So you propose that the current way the game is now, that a Fade vs. Shotgun is a confrontation based on talent?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> With no other upgrades, a Shotgun (T1) vs. a Fade (T2) should give an advantage to the Fade, but not a guaranteed one. That's where skill comes in. A Tier 1 unit should be able to best a Tier 2 unit given he is the more skilled player. This exists in RTSs in the form of micro. Now, should a Tier 1 Marine be able to kill a Tier 3 Onos? Probably not by himself. IMO, a T3 unit should take 3 T1 units to take down, and a T2 unit should require at least 2 T1 units, and that doesn't mean that either team should emerge unscathed.
<u><b>Probability of Marine Survival</b></u> (grayed areas are redundant): <img src="http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d185/KuBaN5287/Miscellaneous/ProjectedUnitMatchupSurvivalStatistics.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
I'm not sure I completely agree with the numbers, however, for reasons I've expressed in this thread and others. 2v1 should, in most cases, mostly be in the favour of the group of 2, regardless of the tier. <i>On second glance, it could just be that maybe I wasn't understanding the numbers well enough, and you did in fact get that idea across.</i> However, I do think there should also be a different set of scales for balancing 'survival chance' (leaving the encounter alive) and 'killing chance' (winning the encounter).
I also believe that, judging by the current potency of the shotgun, fade and leaping skulk, they should be grouped into tier 2 - while the flamethrower with its anti-DI capabilities should be brought into tier 1.
I say much of this for the benefit of people just coming in, since I'm sure you've heard me repeat this over and over...
<!--quoteo(post=1839388:date=Mar 31 2011, 03:26 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Mar 31 2011, 03:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1839388"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not sure I completely agree with the numbers, however, for reasons I've expressed in this thread and others. 2v1 should, in most cases, mostly be in the favour of the group of 2, regardless of the tier. <i>On second glance, it could just be that maybe I wasn't understanding the numbers well enough, and you did in fact get that idea across.</i> However, I do think there should also be a different set of scales for balancing 'survival chance' (leaving the encounter alive) and 'killing chance' (winning the encounter).
I also believe that, judging by the current potency of the shotgun, fade and leaping skulk, they should be grouped into tier 2 - while the flamethrower with its anti-DI capabilities should be brought into tier 1.
I say much of this for the benefit of people just coming in, since I'm sure you've heard me repeat this over and over...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here's what I really meant, lol: <img src="http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d185/KuBaN5287/Miscellaneous/ProjectedMarineSurvivalinMatchups.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Take into consideration that these are statistical values, meaning they're trends that would be observed over time, if most extraneous variables were removed, such as Commander involvement, other player involvement, and considering that the skill level of each player involved is exactly equal. In reality, a 100% probability of Survival does not guarantee survival. "Survival" also does not imply the player will not be hurt by the end of the encounter. The values reflect Marine Survival, but they would presumably be identical for Kharaa as well.
But in response to your concerns: If higher Tiers don't provide enough advantage there will be little to no incentive for a Commander to invest in these technologies, and little incentive for a Marine to buy any of them either.
I think those values are still much too exaggerated. Using your most extreme example, 1% survival chance for 1 tier 1 player against 1 tier 3 player? I think that's the very definition of a hard counter. I believe that 25% chance with 1 tier 1 unit against 1 tier 2 unit is still too low. I think that the <b>floor</b> for the survival chance of any XvX encounter should be much, much higher; say 25% (this would be for X tier 1 units against X tier 3 units).
My solution for providing upgrades with value, is to uniquify their utility and 'feel', to provide each class with their own experience - this is already done most obviously with the aliens, and at the moment, the three marine weapons do each function differently; and the other solution is also to increase higher tier classes' potency drastically on a team-vs-team basis, but only increase their potency on a player-vs-player basis to some extent.
I'm not against a reasonable amount of increase in player-vs-player potency with tech tier, as you might know with my (Tier 1 = Expansion, Tier 2 = Combat effectiveness, Tier 3 = Game ending) theory. But the way I envision it, the jump in player-vs-player potency from 1 to 2 should be much higher than the jump in pvp potency from 2 to 3; however, the jump in team-vs-team potency from 2 to 3 should be much higher than the jump in tvt potency from 1 to 2.
For example: <img src="http://i.imgur.com/AhDv9.png" border="0" class="linked-image" /> This doesn't really illustrate the jump from tier 1 to tier 2 (or the lack thereof in tier 2 to tier 3) however.
The values themselves were less important than the general idea, which you've clearly grasped. Again, they were theoretical values that would probably never be testable since it requires all else be equal (like a 1on1 arena type thing), but your values were clearly more thought-out.
Never testable and never directly approachable, true. But the similarity (closeness) or differences (remoteness) between the numbers lends itself to a guide as to how to balance W number of tier X players against Y number of tier Z players.
I would like to see something about the Shotgun in the Progress list. Surely they must think the shotgun needs nerfing or maybe they could just say that they dont' think the shotgun needs nerfing but they have other things for the future that will make it less OP.
I'll accept a SG nerf + SG moved to L2 if the skulks loose there instant leap and some limitation is added to the OP alien vision. The GL can be moved to the place of a L1-researchable-upgrade since it isn't a weapon.
<!--quoteo(post=1840105:date=Apr 7 2011, 12:25 AM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Apr 7 2011, 12:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1840105"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'll accept a SG nerf + SG moved to L2 if the skulks loose there instant leap and some limitation is added to the OP alien vision. The GL can be moved to the place of a L1-researchable-upgrade since it isn't a weapon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, UWE have been saying that the Rifle right click hit will be able to knock skulks in mid-air. So that means that the Tier 1 skulks with Leap have a counter already.
The Grenade Launcher is effective against structures so unless it has another purpose at Tier 1 and then an Anti-Structure upgrade at Tier 2 then I think it could be OP. Alien vision isn't OP either, it already has bad points about it; like not being able to see hiding spaces. I don't understand how it is OP, we had it in NS1, please elaborate.
<!--quoteo(post=1839233:date=Mar 29 2011, 09:09 PM:name=ChrisJustinParr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChrisJustinParr @ Mar 29 2011, 09:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1839233"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes. Yes it does. One way to implement this is to give shotgun armor-piercing and just make the Fade have armor but with less health. Otherwise shotgun should be just mediocre against 'fleshy' aliens like Lerk and Skulk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's unintuitive, shotguns give off a vibe of being crap against anything armoured because that's the way they've been in nearly every game ever made and that's the way a bunch of itty bitty pellets are expected to behave; you use pellets to shoot small furry and feathery animals and slugs to shot deer and bigger things.
Comments
The Havester (Alien) has 2000 hp and 250 armour. Totalling in that the Havester has 2500 hp. <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->it is made of FLESH<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One of them is made of metal and one of them is made of flesh... And your point is?
I am going to give you what I think of this, how about that?
1. All because the marines structures are made of metal and the alien structures are made of flesh DOES NOT mean that the game cannot be balanced.
2. All of the aliens are made of flesh, and yet the marines are coated in metal, there isn't really much of an unbalance there though.
3. THIS IS A GAME! This is a game set in the future. I don't think any species can get inside of a big alien and tell other aliens what to do is possible, I certainly can't do it. This is just a game where any is possible (To some extent)
4. Most of the Alien structures have some sort of bone/rock skin type thing.
Personnally, I find your comment stupid. All because that is what it is like in real life does not mean that that is what it is going to be like in the game.
Or did you know that already?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was reading it damage-per-second over time, but was ultimately just screwing with you :)
<!--quoteo(post=1838632:date=Mar 24 2011, 09:55 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Mar 24 2011, 09:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838632"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What I'm proposing is the following:
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->If target = player
deal x damage
elseif target = structure
deal y damage
end<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
and the idea is that, for any <b>standard</b> weapon: rifle, shotgun, axe; the dps <b>against structures</b> (y) is the same (or very very similar). [...] Same for the alien side: skulk bite, lerk spikes, fade slash, etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is interesting, although I think it may just dumb down the tactical elements of certain classes. If I did the same damage to a structure as a lerk than a fade would, I think I would always prefer to hide in a corner as a Lerk and kill something from as far away as I can, which seems rather unbalanced. Of course then we could have different anti-structure damages for ranged and melee attacks, but then we're almost back where we started. Honestly I think the values just need some tweaking.
<!--quoteo(post=1838657:date=Mar 24 2011, 01:41 PM:name=Papayas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Papayas @ Mar 24 2011, 01:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838657"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2. All of the aliens are made of flesh, and yet the marines are coated in metal, there isn't really much of an unbalance there though.
4. Most of the Alien structures have some sort of bone/rock skin type thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On this note (and I apologize for going off topic), it would be interesting (and make sense) if Aliens generally had more health than armor, while Marine structures had significantly more Armor than health (Using the same effective HPs: Extractors: 2000 Health + 2250 Armor = 6500 HP; Harvesters: 2000 Health + 250 Armor = 2500 HP). Destroying a Power Node could then remove nearby Marine structure Armor, making Marine structures as vulnerable as the Kharaa when they are un-powered. This would encourage the destruction of Power Nodes in Marine territory over all else.
And well, of course you don't have to have the dps exactly the same for each weapon. As you say, ranged abilities could have a lower dps <u>against structures</u>, possibly half or less.
Basically you're splitting the RTS component (damage over time against structures) from the FPS component (damage over time against players) so that you can balance both of them well - by balancing each of them individually.
What this could mean, is that Weapon X can be just as effective against players as it is now, but not so over-powered against structures like it is now.
If you had only increased the health of structures, then Weapon Y would be less effective against structures, which is no good. If you had only decreased the damage of Weapon X, then Weapon X would be less effective against players, which is no good.
That cleared it up perfectly for me. Didn't look at it from that angle. I think I may be on board with you now ;)
Lone Skulk should be able to defeat lone Assault Rifle, especially if ambushed. But skillful Marine with Assault Rifle against bad Skulk should be fine.
Shotgun should be advantageous against Skulks, but the cost of shotgun should be high enough so that if you only manage to kill 2 Skulks with shotgun, you will have wasted your money.
Shotgun should be even with Fades such that it becomes the only realistic way to take one down without 3-4 Assault Rifle friends.
Assault Rifle should be even with Lerk. <b>Shotgun should be useless against Lerk.</b> <b>Shotgun should be useless against Lerk.</b>
Everything should be strong against Gorge, but the Hydras should be more useful. Gorge should also have some sort of niche skill that makes it worthwhile to have a couple per team.
It should take 4 people working together with more than one type of weapon to kill Onos, but the cost of becoming an Onos should be much more than the cost of 4 people. When you see an Onos, it should be like the first time you see a tank in Battlefield 1942 and realize bullets are useless (you run away until you have enough buddies and a grenades). Successful strategy against Onos would be to (1) run away, (2) have one friend set it on fire, (3) lob grenades and (4) kill supporting aliens.
Flamethrower should be good against 'structures' and OK against everything. But it should be expensive enough that it is not worth buying it just to take out aliens.
Grenade Launcher for taking down Onos and as support. Should be difficult to master, breaking alien camping stalemate and mostly for lols.
If anything, it should matter much more how skilled you are as a player as much as which weapon/alien you have. A smart player with an Assault Rifle should be able to take down everything except Onos, the main benefit is that it doesn't cost anything to have an Assault Rifle, whereas the aliens will use their resources and time transforming.
1) Do I see a Skulk?
- I should be OK with an Assault Rifle, as long as I am skilled. Otherwise wait for backup.
2) Do I see a Lerk?
- Assault Rifle is fine, even if I die twice before killing it, I caused the Lerk to waste resources.
3) Do I see a Fade?
- Get a Shotgun. Even if I die twice before killing it, I caused the Fade to waste resources.
4) Do I see a Gorge?
- Keep whatever weapon I have and kill it before it makes buildings.
5) Do I see buildings?
- Buy a flamethrower.
6) Do I see an Onos?
- Run away.
- Wait for squad.
- Buy a flamethrower, set on fire.
- Buy a grenade launcher, blow up.
- Even if 4 of us die, I caused the Onos to waste resources.
7) Are all the aliens just sitting in the room camping?
- Buy a grenade launcher.
<u><b>Actual NS2</b></u>:
1) Do I see a Skulk?
- Buy a shotgun.
2) Do I see a Lerk?
- Buy a shotgun.
3) Do I see a Fade?
- Buy a shotgun.
4) Do I see a Gorge?
- Buy a shotgun.
5) Do I see buildings?
- Buy a shotgun.
6) Do I see an Onos?
(If you do, then you are not playing the right game or you are cheating)
7) Are all the aliens just sitting in the room camping?
- Buy a shotgun.
What do you want? A shotgun that is only effective against fades and doesnt hurt the smaller ones? - Does this sound right to you?
The only thing that needs balance is personal res, so there are not 10 fades or shotgunners at the same time around - and if they die they just come back with another shotgun/same lifeform.
Higher lifeforms, weapons must have high value and should be keept alive aslong as possible(you will be able to drop and pickup weapons - so if a marines dies... they should want to keep his rifle "alive" so res is not wasted) - sure there is still some finetuning(dmg and specials effects like flamethrower dot etc.) needed, but you cant say uwe is not behind it... This kind of balance cant be done perfectly yet - since there is still a lot missing.
Upgrades, Lifeforms, structures etc.
Yes. Yes it does. One way to implement this is to give shotgun armor-piercing and just make the Fade have armor but with less health. Otherwise shotgun should be just mediocre against 'fleshy' aliens like Lerk and Skulk.
1) Decrease health of Fade.
2) Give Fade armor bonus against most weapons.
3) Decrease shotgun damage and range.
4) Give shotgun armor-piercing so that it does 'normal' damage to Fade.
There. I solved all of your 'realism' issues since this game is definitely a 'realism shooter' according to this forum.
So you propose that the current way the game is now, that a Fade vs. Shotgun is a confrontation based on talent?
With no other upgrades, a Shotgun (T1) vs. a Fade (T2) should give an advantage to the Fade, but not a guaranteed one. That's where skill comes in. A Tier 1 unit should be able to best a Tier 2 unit given he is the more skilled player. This exists in RTSs in the form of micro. Now, should a Tier 1 Marine be able to kill a Tier 3 Onos? Probably not by himself. IMO, a T3 unit should take 3 T1 units to take down, and a T2 unit should require at least 2 T1 units, and that doesn't mean that either team should emerge unscathed.
<u><b>Probability of Marine Survival</b></u> (grayed areas are redundant):
<img src="http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d185/KuBaN5287/Miscellaneous/ProjectedUnitMatchupSurvivalStatistics.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Sexy.
I'm not sure I completely agree with the numbers, however, for reasons I've expressed in this thread and others. 2v1 should, in most cases, mostly be in the favour of the group of 2, regardless of the tier. <i>On second glance, it could just be that maybe I wasn't understanding the numbers well enough, and you did in fact get that idea across.</i>
However, I do think there should also be a different set of scales for balancing 'survival chance' (leaving the encounter alive) and 'killing chance' (winning the encounter).
I also believe that, judging by the current potency of the shotgun, fade and leaping skulk, they should be grouped into tier 2 - while the flamethrower with its anti-DI capabilities should be brought into tier 1.
I say much of this for the benefit of people just coming in, since I'm sure you've heard me repeat this over and over...
However, I do think there should also be a different set of scales for balancing 'survival chance' (leaving the encounter alive) and 'killing chance' (winning the encounter).
I also believe that, judging by the current potency of the shotgun, fade and leaping skulk, they should be grouped into tier 2 - while the flamethrower with its anti-DI capabilities should be brought into tier 1.
I say much of this for the benefit of people just coming in, since I'm sure you've heard me repeat this over and over...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here's what I really meant, lol:
<img src="http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d185/KuBaN5287/Miscellaneous/ProjectedMarineSurvivalinMatchups.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Take into consideration that these are statistical values, meaning they're trends that would be observed over time, if most extraneous variables were removed, such as Commander involvement, other player involvement, and considering that the skill level of each player involved is exactly equal. In reality, a 100% probability of Survival does not guarantee survival. "Survival" also does not imply the player will not be hurt by the end of the encounter. The values reflect Marine Survival, but they would presumably be identical for Kharaa as well.
But in response to your concerns: If higher Tiers don't provide enough advantage there will be little to no incentive for a Commander to invest in these technologies, and little incentive for a Marine to buy any of them either.
My solution for providing upgrades with value, is to uniquify their utility and 'feel', to provide each class with their own experience - this is already done most obviously with the aliens, and at the moment, the three marine weapons do each function differently; and the other solution is also to increase higher tier classes' potency drastically on a team-vs-team basis, but only increase their potency on a player-vs-player basis to some extent.
I'm not against a reasonable amount of increase in player-vs-player potency with tech tier, as you might know with my (Tier 1 = Expansion, Tier 2 = Combat effectiveness, Tier 3 = Game ending) theory. But the way I envision it, the jump in player-vs-player potency from 1 to 2 should be much higher than the jump in pvp potency from 2 to 3; however, the jump in team-vs-team potency from 2 to 3 should be much higher than the jump in tvt potency from 1 to 2.
For example:
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/AhDv9.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
This doesn't really illustrate the jump from tier 1 to tier 2 (or the lack thereof in tier 2 to tier 3) however.
Well, UWE have been saying that the Rifle right click hit will be able to knock skulks in mid-air. So that means that the Tier 1 skulks with Leap have a counter already.
The Grenade Launcher is effective against structures so unless it has another purpose at Tier 1 and then an Anti-Structure upgrade at Tier 2 then I think it could be OP. Alien vision isn't OP either, it already has bad points about it; like not being able to see hiding spaces. I don't understand how it is OP, we had it in NS1, please elaborate.
That's unintuitive, shotguns give off a vibe of being crap against anything armoured because that's the way they've been in nearly every game ever made and that's the way a bunch of itty bitty pellets are expected to behave; you use pellets to shoot small furry and feathery animals and slugs to shot deer and bigger things.