<!--quoteo(post=1855132:date=Jun 21 2011, 02:10 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Jun 21 2011, 02:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855132"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If they fixed the swing animation to be quicker and easier to time, I think this would actually do a good job of balancing Marine v Skulk combat in the early-game.
One concern I have though is Skulk enjoyment; is it going to get annoying and/or frustrating to fight an enemy with a ranged attack and an ability to punt you with nothing but melee to kill him with?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's the problem I see, and it was a BIG problem in Left 4 Dead.
In L4D, the "melee" that knocked the infected back resulted in a long drawn out animation and a quick death for the SI if you were playing multiplayer. Marines v. Skulk wouldn't be as a big of a deal because the skulks are small and quick, but people who love playing Fade would have complaints to hell and back.
<!--quoteo(post=1855154:date=Jun 21 2011, 03:46 PM:name=Enhance89)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Enhance89 @ Jun 21 2011, 03:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855154"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's the problem I see, and it was a BIG problem in Left 4 Dead.
In L4D, the "melee" that knocked the infected back resulted in a long drawn out animation and a quick death for the SI if you were playing multiplayer. Marines v. Skulk wouldn't be as a big of a deal because the skulks are small and quick, but people who love playing Fade would have complaints to hell and back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It shouldn't work on anything Fade size or bigger. Just keep it for Lurks, Skulks, and Gorges, in order of force applied to target after successful push.
<!--quoteo(post=1855155:date=Jun 21 2011, 02:47 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Jun 21 2011, 02:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855155"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It shouldn't work on anything Fade size or bigger.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well Fades are only a little larger than a Marine so I don't see why not, personally. An Onos should obviously be able to scoff at it, of course.
Either way, I don't see them implementing a push-back effect because of the raging that would follow.
<!--quoteo(post=1855157:date=Jun 21 2011, 03:50 PM:name=Enhance89)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Enhance89 @ Jun 21 2011, 03:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855157"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well Fades are only a little larger than a Marine so I don't see why not, personally. An Onos should obviously be able to scoff at it, of course.
Either way, I don't see them implementing a push-back effect because of the raging that would follow.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think that at the point you've evolved into a fade, you pretty much "counter" previous marine tactics for close-quarters shoving. Kind of like how the flamethrower "counters" Lurk spam and Gorge self-healing in combat.
For some reason, the fix idea doesn't seem like a viable fix to me, it just means that they'll jump more. It'll take some time but I'm pretty sure there will be something to help tone down the jump-spam. I'm a big hater of jump-spammers, but it's something we've got to put up with until there's a better idea in place.
Fades are somewhat taller and a LOT bulkier than marines wearing body armor. Ever seen an american football player get in a fistfight with the mouthy short guy in a bar? If it's a serious fight, it doesn't usually go to the smaller guy.
Occasionally, for bizarre entertainment, you used to see fights between skilled boxers/wrestlers and primates (monkeys, apes, etc). The human usually had a size advantage, but the musculature and physical construction of the primate (leverage of soft tissue connections across joints, etc) make them a hell of a lot stronger despite usually being a little lighter. Those fights usually don't go well for the human.
Fades are able to <i>kill</i> marines by hitting them a couple of times, due to differences in size and strength and the whole "i've got chitinous claws for forearms" thing. Check out their health and armor values... even before evolving an upgrade like Carapace, it's apparent that a Fade is a hell of a lot tougher than a heavily-armored human. It doesn't really make sense for a marine to be able to send them reeling by banging on 'em with a rifle butt a couple of times. Against a smaller life form, sure, but Fades probably weigh on the order of 450+ pounds/200+ kg, and are not something you'd want to meet in a dark alley.
For many years of playing First Person Shooter's mashing the jump key has and always will be an exploit (Takes advantage of lag, and can cause hit box's to go haywire) regardless of what people say it has been an issue since the days of Quake, but, they're games that do have jump mechanics that work (and Im not saying any of these will fit NS2, they might, they might not)
Counter-Strike: Source - Constantly jumping caused you to slow down and made your accuracy (not horrible but more random), Unless you're someone who uses a program to exploit the game.
Battlefield 2 - Has bhop/strafe jump, but being able to shoot while jumping was removed in a patch (but DICE being the special developers they are, they always made another problem when they fixed one)
Soldier of Fortune 2 - this was a game that jump spamming didn't exist because of the delay in the jump (about 0.5 to 1.5 seconds) but it had strafe jump (but not how you see it in quake) which if you jumped from the ground on to a railing/box(anything higher then then the level you were on), etc you would be able to immediately jump again and gave you a boost in speed but it would become useless if you got shot.
Call of Duty (1 and 2, not the cheap console crap the rest are) - every time you jumped it would reduce the height in which you jump. (which has been stated in this thread as many of the above have)
At the end of the day yes Natural Selection 2 is still a beta and their is going to be issues, but, (to my knowledge) no net code exists that actually renders the exploit useless.
At this point in time its not to bad I have seen the occasional jump spammer but I dont see it as a top priority until the game is running at 100% and the game gets a better net code appose to the one that is used now, it should be left alone to see how it actually works out and how bad it can be exploited.
And Im sure the guys at UWE have it in the back of their minds. but its just not to much of an issue as of yet.
I was going to post that all shots fired from a jump should be really bad accuracy, but you also have to admit that it looks ridiculous when someone is indeed immitating a kangaroo.
Something really needs to be done to separate this infinately cool game from the likes of Unreal Tournament.
Dont get me wrong, I used to love UT and Quake.. but theres a time and place for jumping around like a tard...
Fact is this game has a heavy focus on immersion and lots of cool environmental effects that change the mechanics of every round such as powernodes, etc etc and jumping around like a mad ###### just doesnt belong!
hate the "realism" argument :( . Personally, if I want realism I just stand up from my chair and look through my window or go outside, realism in games usually ends up being boring.
Coming from hl2dm and TF2, I rather have movement variety that requires time to master and that helps in evasion (cause it just 'helps' but doesn't assure you anything, if the other person is good enough he is going to hit you anyway), than having that limited because "it looks silly", "humans don't do that", or whatever other not very good reason to remove it has been said. IMHO, most of nowadays games have had their skill ceiling ridiculously reduced to simplify games or just make them seem "real". Please don't do that with NS2 that so far looks really promising.
I think the only argument I read that can be considered seriously was the one about exploiting lag compensation / hit registration.
<!--quoteo(post=1856953:date=Jun 28 2011, 08:00 PM:name=Gomezie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gomezie @ Jun 28 2011, 08:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856953"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Dont get me wrong, I used to love UT and Quake.. but theres a time and place for jumping around like a tard...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes, it's called low gravity =) jumping up and down repeatedly just looks stupid in ns2.
<!--quoteo(post=1857176:date=Jun 29 2011, 12:22 PM:name=Kenzick)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kenzick @ Jun 29 2011, 12:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1857176"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You could make it so if the marine gets hit once he can't jump for ten seconds of so, which makes sense to me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Issue there is things like getting parasited, moving through a gas cloud, catching a stray spike, getting tagged by a hydra, whatever... seriously messing up your motion. If I'm hauling ass down a corridor and want to jump over the railing at the end, that shouldn't be a problem even if I'm getting hit in the process. It's the pogo stick kind of behavior that's the issue.
Think about it, if some horrible alien being comes trying to knaw off your ankles you WOULD jump out of the way wouldn't you?
i can understand the potential fixxes of the spam though, the can't reload while jumping, that makes perfect sense, still be able to fire though just accuracy penalty? maybe can't jump if below % health too, indicating the incapacitating injuries, so a good sneak attack can mean a quick kill.
<!--quoteo(post=1857860:date=Jul 4 2011, 10:47 AM:name=necromancerking)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (necromancerking @ Jul 4 2011, 10:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1857860"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Think about it, if some horrible alien being comes trying to knaw off your ankles you WOULD jump out of the way wouldn't you?
i can understand the potential fixxes of the spam though, the can't reload while jumping, that makes perfect sense, still be able to fire though just accuracy penalty? maybe can't jump if below % health too, indicating the incapacitating injuries, so a good sneak attack can mean a quick kill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think we should remove aliens too I mean bible does not mention them not to mention we need to rework the maps Its not like man has been beyond moon anyway.
I'm pretty sure MvM works though, plastic cosplay etc.
My problem wiht the jumping is it really interferes with the games atmosphere to see marines or aliens leaping up and down like epileptic rabbits. It's just silly looking. If there was an ability to say, pull down your marines pants and do a silly dance for a second of invulnerability, it would certainly take "skill" to execute properly and effectively, but it would not be a welcome addition to the game because it clashes with the atmosphere and mood, so it taking skill is not really a reason to include it in the game. Same thing with jump spamming for anyone.
If it just looked more natural it might not be so bad, but its a lot of hopping up and down on one spot or laterally side to side like a child playing with action figures. Then again, I really am not a huge fan of tons of movement for any gun carrying character from circle strafing to jinking side to side. It just looks ridiculous and detracts from the seriousness of the game. Imagine a movie like Aliens if the marines were leaping up and down or side to side constantly, or the aliens attacking them were bouncing around at point blank side to side. Could you take the movie seriously? Of course not.
I'm a big fan of proper feel in games, I like immersion. Some people don't care though, and that's they're deal.
<!--quoteo(post=1856958:date=Jun 28 2011, 09:29 AM:name=comp_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (comp_ @ Jun 28 2011, 09:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856958"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->hate the "realism" argument :( . Personally, if I want realism I just stand up from my chair and look through my window or go outside, realism in games usually ends up being boring.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That seems like an awfully silly way to look at it. So should the game have guns that shoot squirrel pelt caps out because "realism isn't important." Maybe when you run you should randomly turn into corn on the cob because "Hey if I wanted realism I'd go outside." <b>Every single game has elements of realism.</b> Just because a game is not entirely realistic doesn't make an argument for the idea nothing should be realistic. Pogo jumping is dumb looking and it detracts from the game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Coming from hl2dm and TF2, I rather have movement variety that requires time to master and that helps in evasion (cause it just 'helps' but doesn't assure you anything, if the other person is good enough he is going to hit you anyway), than having that limited because "it looks silly", "humans don't do that", or whatever other not very good reason to remove it has been said. IMHO, most of nowadays games have had their skill ceiling ridiculously reduced to simplify games or just make them seem "real". Please don't do that with NS2 that so far looks really promising.
I think the only argument I read that can be considered seriously was the one about exploiting lag compensation / hit registration.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The realism argument is entirely valid. Guns shoot bullets, bullets kill. Ergo, realism, to a lesser level, but nonetheless. We expect to fall when we walk off a ledge, we expect to burn when set on fire, we expect to die when stabbed. All of that is realism to some degree. They're nothing skill lowering about removing the silliness of people leaping constantly like a child playing with his action figures is controlling them. You just adapt to different movement modes, preferably ones that look and feel more consistent with NS2's dark, gritty, and relatively realistic atmosphere.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
edited July 2011
its not just immersion that gets destroyed, its also talking away the melee advantage of skulks to some degree. it is too easy to gain distance without any affort, spamming one button without having to aim or think about timing is NOT a measure of skill. its just... nothing. i also hate the flamethrower as it is currently implemented where you only rely on the dot to take down your target, because applying it is really not very difficult and avoiding it is impossible (since there is no way except of not attack to avoid it).
jump spamming will get fixed hopefully (slowdown on damage), and will add some skill to the game (if you fail to leap your target multiple times, or if the marines' aim is simply godlike, you will not reach him as a skulk. same goes for skulk, if you perform perfect leaps and ambushes all the time you will be more successful since the marine cannot gain distance if he fails several rifle knockbacks or the skulk perfectly times his "re-leaps"). There is just no place for "jump spam" as a combat mechanic.
so i think the jump spam will find an end in 180. with slowdown on damage and how the marine sprint is working (+rifle knockback as the only effective option to gain distance) you will not see jump-spamming marines anymore (only to jump over obstacles)
<!--quoteo(post=1857893:date=Jul 4 2011, 02:51 PM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Jul 4 2011, 02:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1857893"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->stuff<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Silly thing is that people come online seeking realization, there are plenty of singleplayers out there that do not require player vs player action where lack of proper movement hurts the gameplay. I'm not saying currect way is good infact it is terribad however removing it would render marine side so helpless that even the "immersive people" would lose interest. Immersion is just part of your thought process that thinks this is the way theres no other ultimately limiting creativeness and gameplay.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1856958:date=Jun 28 2011, 09:29 PM:name=comp_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (comp_ @ Jun 28 2011, 09:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856958"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->hate the "realism" argument :( . Personally, if I want realism I just stand up from my chair and look through my window or go outside, realism in games usually ends up being boring.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Realism isn't the important thing. What is importent is CONSISTENCY. A good story has a small number of core assumptions, whose consequences are then consistently applied as the story develops. Same goes for games.
If those core rules are the same as in our world, you get realism. If the core rules are different, you get fantasy/sci-fi.
If the core rules are inconsistently applied, the result usually sucks.
Jumping up and down in the middle of a fight just looks stupid, and only works effectively on new players or lagged servers. If anything just increase the cone of fire to decrease accuracy so you can still shoot grenades more effectively, but makes the rifle or shotgun harder to land hits. I also wouldn't mind a reduced height after 2-3 jumps, since you never need that many to clear any obstacle, and it would only be reduced enough to look more like a skip rather than a silly looking hop.
<!--quoteo(post=1857911:date=Jul 4 2011, 09:43 PM:name=matso)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (matso @ Jul 4 2011, 09:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1857911"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Realism isn't the important thing. What is importent is CONSISTENCY. A good story has a small number of core assumptions, whose consequences are then consistently applied as the story develops. Same goes for games.
If those core rules are the same as in our world, you get realism. If the core rules are different, you get fantasy/sci-fi.
If the core rules are inconsistently applied, the result usually sucks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wisdom.
However, in the context of this discussion (bouncing up and down), they're one and the same.
Comments
One concern I have though is Skulk enjoyment; is it going to get annoying and/or frustrating to fight an enemy with a ranged attack and an ability to punt you with nothing but melee to kill him with?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's the problem I see, and it was a BIG problem in Left 4 Dead.
In L4D, the "melee" that knocked the infected back resulted in a long drawn out animation and a quick death for the SI if you were playing multiplayer. Marines v. Skulk wouldn't be as a big of a deal because the skulks are small and quick, but people who love playing Fade would have complaints to hell and back.
In L4D, the "melee" that knocked the infected back resulted in a long drawn out animation and a quick death for the SI if you were playing multiplayer. Marines v. Skulk wouldn't be as a big of a deal because the skulks are small and quick, but people who love playing Fade would have complaints to hell and back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It shouldn't work on anything Fade size or bigger. Just keep it for Lurks, Skulks, and Gorges, in order of force applied to target after successful push.
Well Fades are only a little larger than a Marine so I don't see why not, personally. An Onos should obviously be able to scoff at it, of course.
Either way, I don't see them implementing a push-back effect because of the raging that would follow.
Either way, I don't see them implementing a push-back effect because of the raging that would follow.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that at the point you've evolved into a fade, you pretty much "counter" previous marine tactics for close-quarters shoving. Kind of like how the flamethrower "counters" Lurk spam and Gorge self-healing in combat.
Occasionally, for bizarre entertainment, you used to see fights between skilled boxers/wrestlers and primates (monkeys, apes, etc). The human usually had a size advantage, but the musculature and physical construction of the primate (leverage of soft tissue connections across joints, etc) make them a hell of a lot stronger despite usually being a little lighter. Those fights usually don't go well for the human.
Fades are able to <i>kill</i> marines by hitting them a couple of times, due to differences in size and strength and the whole "i've got chitinous claws for forearms" thing. Check out their health and armor values... even before evolving an upgrade like Carapace, it's apparent that a Fade is a hell of a lot tougher than a heavily-armored human. It doesn't really make sense for a marine to be able to send them reeling by banging on 'em with a rifle butt a couple of times. Against a smaller life form, sure, but Fades probably weigh on the order of 450+ pounds/200+ kg, and are not something you'd want to meet in a dark alley.
Counter-Strike: Source - Constantly jumping caused you to slow down and made your accuracy (not horrible but more random), Unless you're someone who uses a program to exploit the game.
Battlefield 2 - Has bhop/strafe jump, but being able to shoot while jumping was removed in a patch (but DICE being the special developers they are, they always made another problem when they fixed one)
Soldier of Fortune 2 - this was a game that jump spamming didn't exist because of the delay in the jump (about 0.5 to 1.5 seconds) but it had strafe jump (but not how you see it in quake) which if you jumped from the ground on to a railing/box(anything higher then then the level you were on), etc you would be able to immediately jump again and gave you a boost in speed but it would become useless if you got shot.
Call of Duty (1 and 2, not the cheap console crap the rest are) - every time you jumped it would reduce the height in which you jump. (which has been stated in this thread as many of the above have)
At the end of the day yes Natural Selection 2 is still a beta and their is going to be issues, but, (to my knowledge) no net code exists that actually renders the exploit useless.
At this point in time its not to bad I have seen the occasional jump spammer but I dont see it as a top priority until the game is running at 100% and the game gets a better net code appose to the one that is used now, it should be left alone to see how it actually works out and how bad it can be exploited.
And Im sure the guys at UWE have it in the back of their minds. but its just not to much of an issue as of yet.
Something really needs to be done to separate this infinately cool game from the likes of Unreal Tournament.
Dont get me wrong, I used to love UT and Quake.. but theres a time and place for jumping around like a tard...
Fact is this game has a heavy focus on immersion and lots of cool environmental effects that change the mechanics of every round such as powernodes, etc etc and jumping around like a mad ###### just doesnt belong!
Coming from hl2dm and TF2, I rather have movement variety that requires time to master and that helps in evasion (cause it just 'helps' but doesn't assure you anything, if the other person is good enough he is going to hit you anyway), than having that limited because "it looks silly", "humans don't do that", or whatever other not very good reason to remove it has been said.
IMHO, most of nowadays games have had their skill ceiling ridiculously reduced to simplify games or just make them seem "real". Please don't do that with NS2 that so far looks really promising.
I think the only argument I read that can be considered seriously was the one about exploiting lag compensation / hit registration.
yes, it's called low gravity =)
jumping up and down repeatedly just looks stupid in ns2.
Issue there is things like getting parasited, moving through a gas cloud, catching a stray spike, getting tagged by a hydra, whatever... seriously messing up your motion. If I'm hauling ass down a corridor and want to jump over the railing at the end, that shouldn't be a problem even if I'm getting hit in the process. It's the pogo stick kind of behavior that's the issue.
i can understand the potential fixxes of the spam though,
the can't reload while jumping, that makes perfect sense, still be able to fire though just accuracy penalty?
maybe can't jump if below % health too, indicating the incapacitating injuries, so a good sneak attack can mean a quick kill.
i can understand the potential fixxes of the spam though,
the can't reload while jumping, that makes perfect sense, still be able to fire though just accuracy penalty?
maybe can't jump if below % health too, indicating the incapacitating injuries, so a good sneak attack can mean a quick kill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think we should remove aliens too I mean bible does not mention them not to mention we need to rework the maps Its not like man has been beyond moon anyway.
I'm pretty sure MvM works though, plastic cosplay etc.
Im all for marines running away and jumping over things, makes the chase more fun.
Allowing marines to only jump upwards (from a still position) or in the direction they are facing would be a good start though
If it just looked more natural it might not be so bad, but its a lot of hopping up and down on one spot or laterally side to side like a child playing with action figures. Then again, I really am not a huge fan of tons of movement for any gun carrying character from circle strafing to jinking side to side. It just looks ridiculous and detracts from the seriousness of the game. Imagine a movie like Aliens if the marines were leaping up and down or side to side constantly, or the aliens attacking them were bouncing around at point blank side to side. Could you take the movie seriously? Of course not.
I'm a big fan of proper feel in games, I like immersion. Some people don't care though, and that's they're deal.
<!--quoteo(post=1856958:date=Jun 28 2011, 09:29 AM:name=comp_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (comp_ @ Jun 28 2011, 09:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856958"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->hate the "realism" argument :( . Personally, if I want realism I just stand up from my chair and look through my window or go outside, realism in games usually ends up being boring.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That seems like an awfully silly way to look at it. So should the game have guns that shoot squirrel pelt caps out because "realism isn't important." Maybe when you run you should randomly turn into corn on the cob because "Hey if I wanted realism I'd go outside." <b>Every single game has elements of realism.</b> Just because a game is not entirely realistic doesn't make an argument for the idea nothing should be realistic. Pogo jumping is dumb looking and it detracts from the game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Coming from hl2dm and TF2, I rather have movement variety that requires time to master and that helps in evasion (cause it just 'helps' but doesn't assure you anything, if the other person is good enough he is going to hit you anyway), than having that limited because "it looks silly", "humans don't do that", or whatever other not very good reason to remove it has been said.
IMHO, most of nowadays games have had their skill ceiling ridiculously reduced to simplify games or just make them seem "real". Please don't do that with NS2 that so far looks really promising.
I think the only argument I read that can be considered seriously was the one about exploiting lag compensation / hit registration.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The realism argument is entirely valid. Guns shoot bullets, bullets kill. Ergo, realism, to a lesser level, but nonetheless. We expect to fall when we walk off a ledge, we expect to burn when set on fire, we expect to die when stabbed. All of that is realism to some degree. They're nothing skill lowering about removing the silliness of people leaping constantly like a child playing with his action figures is controlling them. You just adapt to different movement modes, preferably ones that look and feel more consistent with NS2's dark, gritty, and relatively realistic atmosphere.
jump spamming will get fixed hopefully (slowdown on damage), and will add some skill to the game (if you fail to leap your target multiple times, or if the marines' aim is simply godlike, you will not reach him as a skulk. same goes for skulk, if you perform perfect leaps and ambushes all the time you will be more successful since the marine cannot gain distance if he fails several rifle knockbacks or the skulk perfectly times his "re-leaps").
There is just no place for "jump spam" as a combat mechanic.
so i think the jump spam will find an end in 180. with slowdown on damage and how the marine sprint is working (+rifle knockback as the only effective option to gain distance) you will not see jump-spamming marines anymore (only to jump over obstacles)
Silly thing is that people come online seeking realization, there are plenty of singleplayers out there that do not require player vs player action where lack of proper movement hurts the gameplay. I'm not saying currect way is good infact it is terribad however removing it would render marine side so helpless that even the "immersive people" would lose interest. Immersion is just part of your thought process that thinks this is the way theres no other ultimately limiting creativeness and gameplay.
Realism isn't the important thing. What is importent is CONSISTENCY. A good story has a small number of core assumptions, whose consequences are then consistently applied as the story develops. Same goes for games.
If those core rules are the same as in our world, you get realism. If the core rules are different, you get fantasy/sci-fi.
If the core rules are inconsistently applied, the result usually sucks.
If those core rules are the same as in our world, you get realism. If the core rules are different, you get fantasy/sci-fi.
If the core rules are inconsistently applied, the result usually sucks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wisdom.
However, in the context of this discussion (bouncing up and down), they're one and the same.
Not this crap again...
yes we do.
It's only crap because you don't like it. And if we're using that as the measure, you seem to be a pretty crappy guy.