<!--quoteo(post=1854103:date=Jun 18 2011, 05:07 AM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jun 18 2011, 05:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854103"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->cooldown after jumping is how most "realistic" FPS handle it
I'm opposed to not being able to shoot while jumping<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> this = good
<!--quoteo(post=1858071:date=Jul 5 2011, 02:01 AM:name=TrueVeritas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrueVeritas @ Jul 5 2011, 02:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1858071"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Leave jumping in, take leap and infini-shotguns out, give aliens an out-of-combat leap before first hive to cover distance faster (or just bhop).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Or, if their speed is a gameplay problem, <i>you could always just make them run faster.</i>
In NS1, people "Jump spammed" (Which i find to be a scrubs phrase. Infact, "XYZ spam" is usually followed by "zomg wtf i cant kill anyone wtf" Type comments, but i digress.) constantly. As a skulk you learned to compensate for it. If you didn't you died. You don't think it looks "right"? And what would look "right" to you? What would be an acceptable mechanic of avoiding a dog like creature with massive jaws and the ability to leap 20 feet into the air? Running? Ok, we got that in already, what else? Dodging? Sure, we can strafe? How about pushing down with your feet and lifting your body out of the way in such a manner as to confuse the attacking creature. Sounds about right.
Seriously, there's going to be hundreds of these threads popping up constantly. I want to ask the NS community to please, please, please stop bumping them and acknowledging the whining's of the lazy, unskilled, and downright incompetent players who would ask the game adapt to them, and not they adapt to the game. By posting in this thread(And yes i get the irony of posting here myself, no need to point it out(But you're going to anyway you little ######(Yes i'm talking to you))) you are just fanning the flames of yet another "omg i cant outskill my opponent so lets change the game and heres XYZ reasons why" thread. And you're making us all look bad. Stop making us look bad. I'm sick of you making me look bad. Remember that time i took you to that party with that cute chick you liked and you got so drunk you puked down her cleavage and passed out on the birthday cake? Thats how bad we all look because of you(Yes, you, i'm talking to you.)
tl;dr Man the ###### up and learn to aim your bites. Stop trying to change the game so your low skill ass can keep up.
<!--quoteo(post=1858300:date=Jul 6 2011, 05:00 AM:name=todd1Ok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (todd1Ok @ Jul 6 2011, 05:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1858300"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ITT: People who cant play the metagame.
In NS1, people "Jump spammed" (Which i find to be a scrubs phrase. Infact, "XYZ spam" is usually followed by "zomg wtf i cant kill anyone wtf" Type comments, but i digress.) constantly. As a skulk you learned to compensate for it. If you didn't you died. You don't think it looks "right"? And what would look "right" to you? What would be an acceptable mechanic of avoiding a dog like creature with massive jaws and the ability to leap 20 feet into the air? Running? Ok, we got that in already, what else? Dodging? Sure, we can strafe? How about pushing down with your feet and lifting your body out of the way in such a manner as to confuse the attacking creature. Sounds about right.
Seriously, there's going to be hundreds of these threads popping up constantly. I want to ask the NS community to please, please, please stop bumping them and acknowledging the whining's of the lazy, unskilled, and downright incompetent players who would ask the game adapt to them, and not they adapt to the game. By posting in this thread(And yes i get the irony of posting here myself, no need to point it out(But you're going to anyway you little ######(Yes i'm talking to you))) you are just fanning the flames of yet another "omg i cant outskill my opponent so lets change the game and heres XYZ reasons why" thread. And you're making us all look bad. Stop making us look bad. I'm sick of you making me look bad. Remember that time i took you to that party with that cute chick you liked and you got so drunk you puked down her cleavage and passed out on the birthday cake? Thats how bad we all look because of you(Yes, you, i'm talking to you.)
tl;dr Man the ###### up and learn to aim your bites. Stop trying to change the game so your low skill ass can keep up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1858300:date=Jul 6 2011, 12:00 AM:name=todd1Ok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (todd1Ok @ Jul 6 2011, 12:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1858300"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ITT: People who cant play the metagame.
In NS1, people "Jump spammed" (Which i find to be a scrubs phrase. Infact, "XYZ spam" is usually followed by "zomg wtf i cant kill anyone wtf" Type comments, but i digress.) constantly. As a skulk you learned to compensate for it. If you didn't you died. You don't think it looks "right"? And what would look "right" to you? What would be an acceptable mechanic of avoiding a dog like creature with massive jaws and the ability to leap 20 feet into the air? Running? Ok, we got that in already, what else? Dodging? Sure, we can strafe? How about pushing down with your feet and lifting your body out of the way in such a manner as to confuse the attacking creature. Sounds about right.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Uh, that is the absolutely last thing I would do. If it can jump 20 feet and its clamping on you with jaws its going to just hold on and shake, jumping is just going to tire you out and do nothing to help. I would kick it in the face or side and shoot it with my gun. IE melee and shoot. I would not waste my energy, energy I could use fleeing, stabbing, or otherwise keeping it from locking its jaws around my throat by grabbing hold of it, to jump up and down on the spot much less with the hope it will somehow confuse the creature. When was the last time you saw a zebra leap up and down on the spot to evade a lion? Hell, a mouse jump up and down on the spot to evade a cat? The logical and "right looking" thing would be to give the critter a boot into a wall and dump bullets into it, its smaller than you, your foots in a heavy armored boot, jumping up and down in said heavy armor is just going to wear you down without accomplishing anything.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Seriously, there's going to be hundreds of these threads popping up constantly. I want to ask the NS community to please, please, please stop bumping them and acknowledging the whining's of the lazy, unskilled, and downright incompetent players who would ask the game adapt to them, and not they adapt to the game. By posting in this thread(And yes i get the irony of posting here myself, no need to point it out(But you're going to anyway you little ######(Yes i'm talking to you))) you are just fanning the flames of yet another "omg i cant outskill my opponent so lets change the game and heres XYZ reasons why" thread. And you're making us all look bad. Stop making us look bad. I'm sick of you making me look bad. Remember that time i took you to that party with that cute chick you liked and you got so drunk you puked down her cleavage and passed out on the birthday cake? Thats how bad we all look because of you(Yes, you, i'm talking to you.)
tl;dr Man the ###### up and learn to aim your bites. Stop trying to change the game so your low skill ass can keep up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Uh so the Tl/DR is "I like to spam jump because it messes with hitboxes and I don't know that atmosphere in a game is important."
If you like jump spam, that's cool. That doesn't stop it from being unrealistic and stupid looking, entirely clashing with the atmosphere of Natural Selection, no reason to get all hostile because someone brings it up, maybe you need to man up about criticism.
<!--quoteo(post=1858314:date=Jul 6 2011, 12:41 AM:name=todd1Ok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (todd1Ok @ Jul 6 2011, 12:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1858314"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"I'm going to use big words to make myself sound smart and bla bla bla bla invectives bla bla bla"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's a mature answer.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Seriously. If you had any notion of how to play as a skulk, you'd understand why it's important that marines are able to dodge a skulk in a fashion that allows them to survive once the skulk get's to the point that the marine can smell what they had for breakfast.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thus the knock back, the knock back that's already been shown in some videos as coming down the pipe.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do you understand what the words "meta-game" mean? for all your big words, i want you to explain to me, in-depth, how the skulk vs marine meta-game is played.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sure do, but the meta game will change as the abilities change. Players who find no benefit to jump spamming will thus stop jump spamming and the game play will shift to a new style, hopefully one more consistent with the dark and gritty atmosphere of NS2.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please be as through as possible. Failure to demonstrate knowledge at this point is punishable by extreme laughter and degradation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You and I both know this is a bogus question, no matter what I say you will respond in a similar fashion to this: "ROFLMAO LOL You think that is wut the meta game is! You don't know what meta-game is and don't know how to play skulks." I know it, you know it, and everyone else knows it because you've already made it clearly evident in previous posts that you revert to attacks and name calling at any challenge. So you can laugh all you want, I and others will be laughing at you. You're very predictable.
You have come to this forum thread, insulted the members and potentially derailed a relatively constructive discussion by spewing insults.. all for what? To get your points of view across?
Why not make your comment constructively, rather than bashing and disrespecting others?
Take your lack of respect elsewhere, work on your life and social issues.. then come back :)
To be honest, to me it seems like people are mssing what NS2 skulks are (i think) intended to be mainly used as, compared to the NS1 versions.
In ns1 it was all about speed and bunny hopping as far as i remember (with the occasional ambush), but the hl1 engine it ran on really didn't allow for great lighting, and i always remember that ANY place i found to hide in any of ns1's maps, i could always be seen by a marine without a flash light even on (the only time they ever ran past was if it was a new player or they just weren't paying attention)
But in ns2 with the vastly improved shadows, hiding as a skulk, even with the larger model is MUCH, MUCH easier, and as a result fo this i'm pretty sure that's where devs want skuks to be headed, as an AMBUSH predator, rather than a head on fighter like the fade/lerk/onos.
Seriously all you old school bunnyhoppers who are used to just bunnyhoping their way into a bunch of marines and chomping away, just a few times, try walking slowly around to the back of a group of marines, especially in places like crossroads and vent on summit. I've taken groups of 5+ marines multiple times now using wait and ambush tactics, the new skulks REALLY thrive from taking alien vision off and using the shadows.
^^^^^^^^^^^ that's how (as an alien) marine bunnyhopping isnt even a problem for me at the moment, because most of the time they can barely get 1 jump off.
All i can say about marines jump spamming is, maybe learn to give a room a quick check BEFORE you go running (usually sprinting) in. THEN maybe you wouldn't need to jump spam? :o
I still can't beleive people need reminding but you know, clearly they do......
ALIENS : Meant to be played as a close quarters combat species (they have teeth and blades :o) once they get close they SHOULD have the advantage
MARINES : Meant to be played (in general) at medium to long range, use corridors and other open space to your advantage. You have high tech weaponry, and for gods sakes you have a FLASHLIGHT!!! USE IT. Marines also have rifle butt knockback coming, which to be honest seeing as jump hasnt got a fix yet i see it being a major problem for the coming patches.
RECAP: Marines are going to have jump spam and rifle knockback soon enough = too much skulk evasion
SOLUTION : create an easy and simple stamina bar, 2-3 jumps and stamina is gone (should take long enough to regen stamina that after three jumps the marine is dead or the skulk is) AND link rifle kockback to stamina bar too ( maybe on rifle bash takes 2/3rd's stamina jump just over 1/3rd?)
Also the option of having diminished returns on the effectiveness of jump is a different option, or one that can be combined with the stamina bar (but enable more jumps)
This means that those who want to jump around almost stationary (like a lame gazelle just before it dies) can, and those who want to take the more believable option of smashing that skulk in the face can, BUT YOU CANT COMBINE IT.
lol yeh man, it's so much fun watching 5+ marines run right past you less than 5 feet away, seeing them get all setup to take down surface or something, and then leaping off the ceiling right behind them and mowing through the whole team lol.
Also, unlike ns1 dont be afraid to walk along ceilings right infront of marines (at least if the power is out and the room is black AND they dont have a flashlight on lol) youd be surprised what players miss right infront/above them of them when they're expecting something around the corner.
Another useful alien / marine hint..... if th power is on where marines are coming from, and out in the room aliens are in, sitting in the top of the doorway or jsut behind it is a great ambush place at the moment. Even though it was the first place checked by marines in ns1, i've noticed not many marines are doing it right now ( though that'll probably change now that i've mentioned it :D)
Most of the people who posted on this thread debunking the original idea didn't join in the last 3 weeks, or last year. they're people who've been playing NS for years. There's a reason for this.
Knockback is also present in NS1, but yet marines can still jump.
The skulk vs marine meta-game from NS1 is perfect in my opinion. There's no reason to change what isnt broken and works. Screaming and crying about it because you can't master or understand it is infantile at best and dangerous if the dev's happen to listen to you at worst.
All's i'll say is thank god for people like me, who have played FPS game's for, and i'll be frank, probably longer than you've been alive, to come in and give the counterpoint to all the whining.
NS should always be a game thats easy to understand and difficult to master. And i will always resist any attempt by scrubs to remove elements from the game that require skill. Bunnyhopping is gone, strafe blinking, gone. Pancaking, gone.
<!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro-->Edited for flame-baiting and complaining about perfectly legitimate post reporting. You broke the rules. That's the end of it.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
The fact of the matter here is that we are dealing with an entirely new generation of gamers. Most of them were raised on either consoles or generic, watered down "realistic" ww2/vietnam simulation games. None of those games had depth in movement mechanics and it's all about how many points you need to get your next achievement or weapon upgrade. They get tired really fast and that's exactly what the developers want because they are ready to sell you the next installment when Christmas rolls around.
Unfortunately for those of us that grew up in the Quake/HL days, that's just the direction that games are going in. My only hope is that Charlie (and company) still enjoy some of the things that made the old games great and they see the importance of game mechanics which promote "easy to pick-up" and "hard to master". Skill based movement is one of those game mechanics, and it would be a shame for some incarnation of that to be missing from NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=1858317:date=Jul 6 2011, 03:50 AM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Jul 6 2011, 03:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1858317"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thus the knock back, the knock back that's already been shown in some videos as coming down the pipe.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1858349:date=Jul 6 2011, 03:55 PM:name=Cerebral)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cerebral @ Jul 6 2011, 03:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1858349"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fact of the matter here is that we are dealing with an entirely new generation of gamers. Most of them were raised on either consoles or generic, watered down "realistic" ww2/vietnam simulation games. None of those games had depth in movement mechanics and it's all about how many points you need to get your next achievement or weapon upgrade. They get tired really fast and that's exactly what the developers want because they are ready to sell you the next installment when Christmas rolls around.
Unfortunately for those of us that grew up in the Quake/HL days, that's just the direction that games are going in. My only hope is that Charlie (and company) still enjoy some of the things that made the old games great and they see the importance of game mechanics which promote "easy to pick-up" and "hard to master". Skill based movement is one of those game mechanics, and it would be a shame for some incarnation of that to be missing from NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't want to fuel the hate, but I have to side with Cerebral here. NS2, although unfinished and sometimes unstable, is refreshing for a player like me because it brings back action/movement-packed gameplay. Atmosphere and "looking right" are reasonable criteria but belong to single player games imo. Multiplayer is about getting the right gameplay elements in first and make sure there's room for improvement and better decision making on the players' side. Saying "Marines = ranged" and "Aliens = melee" is all well and good, but should it be game over as soon as a skulk closes the gap between him and the marine?
Besides, there are quite a lot of silly looking mechanics in "realistic" shooters, like using your parachute when jumping down 10 feet in BFBC2 or all those hide-behind-a-crate-to-regain-hp games. The latter actually says "You want to live? Well stop playing for 10 seconds." NS2, on the other hand, tells me "You want to live? WELL GET THE ?&*$% AWAY FROM THIS SKULK OR YOU'RE DEAD MEAT!" and thus I have to play to stay alive.
And a side note about ambushing: Sneaking behind 5 marines feels very rewarding indeed, but it is pretty much a coin flip these days given that you will show up on the mini-map very easily even sometimes if you're not in their line of sight. All you need is one marine being careful enough, or the commander actually looking at his marines to make your life a lot harder.
He has a point, try jumping over a chair as many times as you can, and then do it with your airsoft rifle. Then again, crouch jumping still needs some attention - these marines can't parkour for the life of them.
As annoying as it it is though, I find that these people are usually aiming at structures anyways so you can just bite them in the ass. If they were using flamethrower, even if you die as skulk they lost 30 p-res.
<!--quoteo(post=1858410:date=Jul 6 2011, 08:19 PM:name=Corpsey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Corpsey @ Jul 6 2011, 08:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1858410"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->He has a point, try jumping over a chair as many times as you can, and then do it with your airsoft rifle. Then again, crouch jumping still needs some attention - these marines can't parkour for the life of them.
As annoying as it it is though, I find that these people are usually aiming at structures anyways so you can just bite them in the ass. If they were using flamethrower, even if you die as skulk they lost 30 p-res.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I have yet to meet a space marine with nanites on his blood, have you?
I dont think you can justify it being doable just because someone turns his back and pulls pants off, although skulk can get the flamer 70% of the time if played properly.
As a victim of circle strafe and jumping many times over I think gives the marines an advantage. I thought it should be limited until I realized that if it were unavailable then it’s, advantage skulk. Except for some very good players with shotties, I’m competitive as a skulk If the marine doesn’t have the chance or the room to jump . For now I think it should be left alone until other balances are tried. Plus, I’m getting better at vector bites and need the practice. A leap kill is sooo cool.
<!--quoteo(post=1858349:date=Jul 6 2011, 05:55 AM:name=Cerebral)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cerebral @ Jul 6 2011, 05:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1858349"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fact of the matter here is that we are dealing with an entirely new generation of gamers. Most of them were raised on either consoles or generic, watered down "realistic" ww2/vietnam simulation games. None of those games had depth in movement mechanics and it's all about how many points you need to get your next achievement or weapon upgrade. They get tired really fast and that's exactly what the developers want because they are ready to sell you the next installment when Christmas rolls around.
Unfortunately for those of us that grew up in the Quake/HL days, that's just the direction that games are going in. My only hope is that Charlie (and company) still enjoy some of the things that made the old games great and they see the importance of game mechanics which promote "easy to pick-up" and "hard to master". Skill based movement is one of those game mechanics, and it would be a shame for some incarnation of that to be missing from NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed. It's a testament to how good of a game NS was that nearly a decade after release as a 3rd party mod of an game engine that was already a couple years old there are still people who play it. For those of you who play TF2, imagine how boring of a game it would be if rocket/sticky/double jumping were removed. The fact is that freedom of movement gives rise to complexity in gameplay.
Yes, I hop like an idiot if it helps me live longer. Ever since NS1 I have hopped skulk bites, strafe+ducked fade swipes, and done whatever I had to to kill the little ######s. Likewise as skulks, you memorize the timing between shotgun shells and jump/change direction when he's going to shoot.
A marine's jump is the closest thing to burst movement that he gets. There's no double-tap dodge a la Unreal Tournament, so all you get is a jump to rapidly change direction. Marines need *something* to defend themselves at close range, and I'll take mobility over a silly knockback melee anyday.
For those of you who think there's no skill involved, aiming is harder while jumping. For those who can't hit a jumping marine, watch which direction he jumped, and aim where he's going to land.
Why do I not care about bunnyhopping "looking bad?" Any good game design will take fun over realism when it comes down to it. I'd absolutely rather have a fun/useful mechanic that looks a little silly than give it up for a few complainers.
I think that's everything, have a good night folks -_-
Apparently it's getting heavily nerfed in 180 to the point of where it's not beneficial anymore (the jumping part, not the strafing around leaping skulks). Dunno, guess we'll see how much of a difference it makes.
Also what's up Underwhelmed/Exon, have you bought NS2 yet?
I think people are overexaggerating what the loss of jump spam is going to do. You're not going to become stationary because you can't jump around constantly in combat, you'll replace the skill of jumping with the skill of timing melee attacks to send the skulks flying. TF2 doesn't have limits on rocket jumps because its a cartoony game, its atmosphere is conducive to silliness. Same with Unreal tournament. Natural Selection is not, natural selection is not TF2, its not cartoony, its not unreal tournament with over the top silliness. Its supposed to be a gritty and immersive experience more akin to Alien vs Predator classic than those others are, and as such, they have to respect at atmosphere than immerses players in the world they've created, and that is not helped by jump spam. Jump spam doesn't make a game classic or old school, it makes it silly looking. Complexity in game play is not the result of spamming one button over and over again, its about planning your route of approach, moving in pairs or more, checking your corners, behind, above. Alien vs Predator back in 2000 was an incredibly deep game when you realized how completely different your adversaries were. You learned to check behind you periodically, throw flares into vents, get an idea of where aliens or predators like to hide, and when you fought them, you learned to be <b>dead on target or dead on arrival.</b> It was phenomenally intense where a split second could get you killed and it <b>never relied on jumping up and down and looking silly.</b> Honestly, jump spam strikes me more as a safety net than good game play mechanic, something familiar that works in other games that you take with you, just like circle strafing, but when it gets taken away, the real challenge starts. You have to be much more careful about where you're going because you can't get ambushed and jump spam around to stand a serious chance, if anything, jump spam blunts the razors edge between killing and being killed that gives a game its intensity by making mistakes less punishing.
Comments
I'm opposed to not being able to shoot while jumping<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this = good
Either make it very hard to aim while your jumping...
Or let skulks hold on when they bite so marines can't jump if skulks land a hit...
Or, if their speed is a gameplay problem, <i>you could always just make them run faster.</i>
In NS1, people "Jump spammed" (Which i find to be a scrubs phrase. Infact, "XYZ spam" is usually followed by "zomg wtf i cant kill anyone wtf" Type comments, but i digress.) constantly. As a skulk you learned to compensate for it. If you didn't you died. You don't think it looks "right"? And what would look "right" to you? What would be an acceptable mechanic of avoiding a dog like creature with massive jaws and the ability to leap 20 feet into the air? Running? Ok, we got that in already, what else? Dodging? Sure, we can strafe? How about pushing down with your feet and lifting your body out of the way in such a manner as to confuse the attacking creature. Sounds about right.
Seriously, there's going to be hundreds of these threads popping up constantly. I want to ask the NS community to please, please, please stop bumping them and acknowledging the whining's of the lazy, unskilled, and downright incompetent players who would ask the game adapt to them, and not they adapt to the game. By posting in this thread(And yes i get the irony of posting here myself, no need to point it out(But you're going to anyway you little ######(Yes i'm talking to you))) you are just fanning the flames of yet another "omg i cant outskill my opponent so lets change the game and heres XYZ reasons why" thread. And you're making us all look bad. Stop making us look bad. I'm sick of you making me look bad. Remember that time i took you to that party with that cute chick you liked and you got so drunk you puked down her cleavage and passed out on the birthday cake? Thats how bad we all look because of you(Yes, you, i'm talking to you.)
tl;dr Man the ###### up and learn to aim your bites. Stop trying to change the game so your low skill ass can keep up.
In NS1, people "Jump spammed" (Which i find to be a scrubs phrase. Infact, "XYZ spam" is usually followed by "zomg wtf i cant kill anyone wtf" Type comments, but i digress.) constantly. As a skulk you learned to compensate for it. If you didn't you died. You don't think it looks "right"? And what would look "right" to you? What would be an acceptable mechanic of avoiding a dog like creature with massive jaws and the ability to leap 20 feet into the air? Running? Ok, we got that in already, what else? Dodging? Sure, we can strafe? How about pushing down with your feet and lifting your body out of the way in such a manner as to confuse the attacking creature. Sounds about right.
Seriously, there's going to be hundreds of these threads popping up constantly. I want to ask the NS community to please, please, please stop bumping them and acknowledging the whining's of the lazy, unskilled, and downright incompetent players who would ask the game adapt to them, and not they adapt to the game. By posting in this thread(And yes i get the irony of posting here myself, no need to point it out(But you're going to anyway you little ######(Yes i'm talking to you))) you are just fanning the flames of yet another "omg i cant outskill my opponent so lets change the game and heres XYZ reasons why" thread. And you're making us all look bad. Stop making us look bad. I'm sick of you making me look bad. Remember that time i took you to that party with that cute chick you liked and you got so drunk you puked down her cleavage and passed out on the birthday cake? Thats how bad we all look because of you(Yes, you, i'm talking to you.)
tl;dr Man the ###### up and learn to aim your bites. Stop trying to change the game so your low skill ass can keep up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
In NS1, people "Jump spammed" (Which i find to be a scrubs phrase. Infact, "XYZ spam" is usually followed by "zomg wtf i cant kill anyone wtf" Type comments, but i digress.) constantly. As a skulk you learned to compensate for it. If you didn't you died. You don't think it looks "right"? And what would look "right" to you? What would be an acceptable mechanic of avoiding a dog like creature with massive jaws and the ability to leap 20 feet into the air? Running? Ok, we got that in already, what else? Dodging? Sure, we can strafe? How about pushing down with your feet and lifting your body out of the way in such a manner as to confuse the attacking creature. Sounds about right.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh, that is the absolutely last thing I would do. If it can jump 20 feet and its clamping on you with jaws its going to just hold on and shake, jumping is just going to tire you out and do nothing to help. I would kick it in the face or side and shoot it with my gun. IE melee and shoot. I would not waste my energy, energy I could use fleeing, stabbing, or otherwise keeping it from locking its jaws around my throat by grabbing hold of it, to jump up and down on the spot much less with the hope it will somehow confuse the creature. When was the last time you saw a zebra leap up and down on the spot to evade a lion? Hell, a mouse jump up and down on the spot to evade a cat?
The logical and "right looking" thing would be to give the critter a boot into a wall and dump bullets into it, its smaller than you, your foots in a heavy armored boot, jumping up and down in said heavy armor is just going to wear you down without accomplishing anything.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Seriously, there's going to be hundreds of these threads popping up constantly. I want to ask the NS community to please, please, please stop bumping them and acknowledging the whining's of the lazy, unskilled, and downright incompetent players who would ask the game adapt to them, and not they adapt to the game. By posting in this thread(And yes i get the irony of posting here myself, no need to point it out(But you're going to anyway you little ######(Yes i'm talking to you))) you are just fanning the flames of yet another "omg i cant outskill my opponent so lets change the game and heres XYZ reasons why" thread. And you're making us all look bad. Stop making us look bad. I'm sick of you making me look bad. Remember that time i took you to that party with that cute chick you liked and you got so drunk you puked down her cleavage and passed out on the birthday cake? Thats how bad we all look because of you(Yes, you, i'm talking to you.)
tl;dr Man the ###### up and learn to aim your bites. Stop trying to change the game so your low skill ass can keep up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh so the Tl/DR is "I like to spam jump because it messes with hitboxes and I don't know that atmosphere in a game is important."
If you like jump spam, that's cool. That doesn't stop it from being unrealistic and stupid looking, entirely clashing with the atmosphere of Natural Selection, no reason to get all hostile because someone brings it up, maybe you need to man up about criticism.
<!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro-->Sorry, just far too much stuff to edit.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
That's a mature answer.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Seriously. If you had any notion of how to play as a skulk, you'd understand why it's important that marines are able to dodge a skulk in a fashion that allows them to survive once the skulk get's to the point that the marine can smell what they had for breakfast.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thus the knock back, the knock back that's already been shown in some videos as coming down the pipe.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do you understand what the words "meta-game" mean? for all your big words, i want you to explain to me, in-depth, how the skulk vs marine meta-game is played.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure do, but the meta game will change as the abilities change. Players who find no benefit to jump spamming will thus stop jump spamming and the game play will shift to a new style, hopefully one more consistent with the dark and gritty atmosphere of NS2.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please be as through as possible. Failure to demonstrate knowledge at this point is punishable by extreme laughter and degradation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You and I both know this is a bogus question, no matter what I say you will respond in a similar fashion to this: "ROFLMAO LOL You think that is wut the meta game is! You don't know what meta-game is and don't know how to play skulks." I know it, you know it, and everyone else knows it because you've already made it clearly evident in previous posts that you revert to attacks and name calling at any challenge. So you can laugh all you want, I and others will be laughing at you. You're very predictable.
You have come to this forum thread, insulted the members and potentially derailed a relatively constructive discussion by spewing insults.. all for what? To get your points of view across?
Why not make your comment constructively, rather than bashing and disrespecting others?
Take your lack of respect elsewhere, work on your life and social issues.. then come back :)
Please replace or remove jumping, it feels really old.
In ns1 it was all about speed and bunny hopping as far as i remember (with the occasional ambush), but the hl1 engine it ran on really didn't allow for great lighting, and i always remember that ANY place i found to hide in any of ns1's maps, i could always be seen by a marine without a flash light even on (the only time they ever ran past was if it was a new player or they just weren't paying attention)
But in ns2 with the vastly improved shadows, hiding as a skulk, even with the larger model is MUCH, MUCH easier, and as a result fo this i'm pretty sure that's where devs want skuks to be headed, as an AMBUSH predator, rather than a head on fighter like the fade/lerk/onos.
Seriously all you old school bunnyhoppers who are used to just bunnyhoping their way into a bunch of marines and chomping away, just a few times, try walking slowly around to the back of a group of marines, especially in places like crossroads and vent on summit.
I've taken groups of 5+ marines multiple times now using wait and ambush tactics, the new skulks REALLY thrive from taking alien vision off and using the shadows.
^^^^^^^^^^^ that's how (as an alien) marine bunnyhopping isnt even a problem for me at the moment, because most of the time they can barely get 1 jump off.
All i can say about marines jump spamming is, maybe learn to give a room a quick check BEFORE you go running (usually sprinting) in. THEN maybe you wouldn't need to jump spam? :o
I still can't beleive people need reminding but you know, clearly they do......
ALIENS : Meant to be played as a close quarters combat species (they have teeth and blades :o) once they get close they SHOULD have the advantage
MARINES : Meant to be played (in general) at medium to long range, use corridors and other open space to your advantage. You have high tech weaponry, and for gods sakes you have a FLASHLIGHT!!! USE IT.
Marines also have rifle butt knockback coming, which to be honest seeing as jump hasnt got a fix yet i see it being a major problem for the coming patches.
RECAP: Marines are going to have jump spam and rifle knockback soon enough = too much skulk evasion
SOLUTION : create an easy and simple stamina bar, 2-3 jumps and stamina is gone (should take long enough to regen stamina that after three jumps the marine is dead or the skulk is) AND link rifle kockback to stamina bar too ( maybe on rifle bash takes 2/3rd's stamina jump just over 1/3rd?)
Also the option of having diminished returns on the effectiveness of jump is a different option, or one that can be combined with the stamina bar (but enable more jumps)
This means that those who want to jump around almost stationary (like a lame gazelle just before it dies) can, and those who want to take the more believable option of smashing that skulk in the face can, BUT YOU CANT COMBINE IT.
I like it.. sounds like you have the atmosphere down too.. Going to just spend some time when playing next practicing hiding for fun hehe
Also, unlike ns1 dont be afraid to walk along ceilings right infront of marines (at least if the power is out and the room is black AND they dont have a flashlight on lol) youd be surprised what players miss right infront/above them of them when they're expecting something around the corner.
Another useful alien / marine hint..... if th power is on where marines are coming from, and out in the room aliens are in, sitting in the top of the doorway or jsut behind it is a great ambush place at the moment.
Even though it was the first place checked by marines in ns1, i've noticed not many marines are doing it right now ( though that'll probably change now that i've mentioned it :D)
Knockback is also present in NS1, but yet marines can still jump.
The skulk vs marine meta-game from NS1 is perfect in my opinion. There's no reason to change what isnt broken and works. Screaming and crying about it because you can't master or understand it is infantile at best and dangerous if the dev's happen to listen to you at worst.
All's i'll say is thank god for people like me, who have played FPS game's for, and i'll be frank, probably longer than you've been alive, to come in and give the counterpoint to all the whining.
NS should always be a game thats easy to understand and difficult to master. And i will always resist any attempt by scrubs to remove elements from the game that require skill. Bunnyhopping is gone, strafe blinking, gone. Pancaking, gone.
<!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro-->Edited for flame-baiting and complaining about perfectly legitimate post reporting. You broke the rules. That's the end of it.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Unfortunately for those of us that grew up in the Quake/HL days, that's just the direction that games are going in. My only hope is that Charlie (and company) still enjoy some of the things that made the old games great and they see the importance of game mechanics which promote "easy to pick-up" and "hard to master". Skill based movement is one of those game mechanics, and it would be a shame for some incarnation of that to be missing from NS2.
What... Why is knockback ok but bunnyhop not.
Unfortunately for those of us that grew up in the Quake/HL days, that's just the direction that games are going in. My only hope is that Charlie (and company) still enjoy some of the things that made the old games great and they see the importance of game mechanics which promote "easy to pick-up" and "hard to master". Skill based movement is one of those game mechanics, and it would be a shame for some incarnation of that to be missing from NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This times 10.
I don't want to fuel the hate, but I have to side with Cerebral here. NS2, although unfinished and sometimes unstable, is refreshing for a player like me because it brings back action/movement-packed gameplay. Atmosphere and "looking right" are reasonable criteria but belong to single player games imo. Multiplayer is about getting the right gameplay elements in first and make sure there's room for improvement and better decision making on the players' side. Saying "Marines = ranged" and "Aliens = melee" is all well and good, but should it be game over as soon as a skulk closes the gap between him and the marine?
Besides, there are quite a lot of silly looking mechanics in "realistic" shooters, like using your parachute when jumping down 10 feet in BFBC2 or all those hide-behind-a-crate-to-regain-hp games. The latter actually says "You want to live? Well stop playing for 10 seconds." NS2, on the other hand, tells me "You want to live? WELL GET THE ?&*$% AWAY FROM THIS SKULK OR YOU'RE DEAD MEAT!" and thus I have to play to stay alive.
And a side note about ambushing: Sneaking behind 5 marines feels very rewarding indeed, but it is pretty much a coin flip these days given that you will show up on the mini-map very easily even sometimes if you're not in their line of sight. All you need is one marine being careful enough, or the commander actually looking at his marines to make your life a lot harder.
Animation & physics.
He has a point, try jumping over a chair as many times as you can, and then do it with your airsoft rifle. Then again, crouch jumping still needs some attention - these marines can't parkour for the life of them.
As annoying as it it is though, I find that these people are usually aiming at structures anyways so you can just bite them in the ass. If they were using flamethrower, even if you die as skulk they lost 30 p-res.
As annoying as it it is though, I find that these people are usually aiming at structures anyways so you can just bite them in the ass. If they were using flamethrower, even if you die as skulk they lost 30 p-res.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have yet to meet a space marine with nanites on his blood, have you?
I dont think you can justify it being doable just because someone turns his back and pulls pants off, although skulk can get the flamer 70% of the time if played properly.
Unfortunately for those of us that grew up in the Quake/HL days, that's just the direction that games are going in. My only hope is that Charlie (and company) still enjoy some of the things that made the old games great and they see the importance of game mechanics which promote "easy to pick-up" and "hard to master". Skill based movement is one of those game mechanics, and it would be a shame for some incarnation of that to be missing from NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed. It's a testament to how good of a game NS was that nearly a decade after release as a 3rd party mod of an game engine that was already a couple years old there are still people who play it. For those of you who play TF2, imagine how boring of a game it would be if rocket/sticky/double jumping were removed. The fact is that freedom of movement gives rise to complexity in gameplay.
Yes, I hop like an idiot if it helps me live longer. Ever since NS1 I have hopped skulk bites, strafe+ducked fade swipes, and done whatever I had to to kill the little ######s. Likewise as skulks, you memorize the timing between shotgun shells and jump/change direction when he's going to shoot.
A marine's jump is the closest thing to burst movement that he gets. There's no double-tap dodge a la Unreal Tournament, so all you get is a jump to rapidly change direction. Marines need *something* to defend themselves at close range, and I'll take mobility over a silly knockback melee anyday.
For those of you who think there's no skill involved, aiming is harder while jumping. For those who can't hit a jumping marine, watch which direction he jumped, and aim where he's going to land.
Why do I not care about bunnyhopping "looking bad?" Any good game design will take fun over realism when it comes down to it. I'd absolutely rather have a fun/useful mechanic that looks a little silly than give it up for a few complainers.
I think that's everything, have a good night folks -_-
Also what's up Underwhelmed/Exon, have you bought NS2 yet?
Honestly, jump spam strikes me more as a safety net than good game play mechanic, something familiar that works in other games that you take with you, just like circle strafing, but when it gets taken away, the real challenge starts. You have to be much more careful about where you're going because you can't get ambushed and jump spam around to stand a serious chance, if anything, jump spam blunts the razors edge between killing and being killed that gives a game its intensity by making mistakes less punishing.