Community response to 180
JayArc
Join Date: 2011-06-03 Member: 102391Members
Join Date: 2011-06-03 Member: 102391Members
I can't help but notice a trend after the release of build 180.
Many topics/posts containing very negative wording, such as
-Does anyone NOT think the slow on hit sucks?
-FADE is a JOKE!
-Bile Bomb is useless
Words like, Sucks, joke and useless are not helpful. They will just make the Devs reading them feel bad about all the hard work they had put in.
I mean, its hardly motivational.
Many topics/posts containing very negative wording, such as
-Does anyone NOT think the slow on hit sucks?
-FADE is a JOKE!
-Bile Bomb is useless
Words like, Sucks, joke and useless are not helpful. They will just make the Devs reading them feel bad about all the hard work they had put in.
I mean, its hardly motivational.
Comments
The devs sell every patch like it's going to be amazingly good, if people play it and it turns out to be far from an improvement, they're going to be annoyed. I don't know many people who appreciate being lied to.
as for the title of the threads, i can agree its not right or nice but some of the changes they making makes me facepalm. I just don't get it at, its like they avoid a direct problem with something. Like slow on hit thing, its just so silly its not even funny anymore, I honestly gotten so stressed out playing I left.
their is more but the game is so messy right now, i don't know where to begin. This is the result of charlie trying to mix combat maps and ns maps together though.
he should focus making ns gameplay as ns1 was, and if people want combat maps, add that later but nope he's mixing combat style ideas with ns gameplay.
There's enthusiasm and there's misrepresentation. Intentionally glossing over the flaws of a build is misrepresentation, which is a polite way of saying lying.
Anybody can see that every feature in 180 is half finished, the patch log gives very little suggestion of this, it doesn't say 'we put basic cyst functionality in, we have no idea how it will work ingame and it will probably be very unbalanced, but if you could place lots of them and kill them and build things on them and basically try to technically break them as much as possible and post the results, it would help us make the implementation more bug-free' which is the accurate description, it instead says they're 'happy' with them right now, which I find difficult to believe given that they aren't stupid and know better than anyone that they aren't finished yet.
Stuff like "Players are slowed somewhat when they take damage (not gas or flame damage). This is an experimental change, please be sure to let us know what you think!" is far better, because it basically says 'we put it in to see what it does, as we have no idea how it would affect the game, it might be terrible, so go and mass test it'. Which I'm perfectly inclined to do, that sort of data is useful and some things are pretty hard to predict how they work, but do me a favour and say that off the bat, rather than trying to sell it like it's a marvellous improvement when you know it isn't going to be.
I realise this is fairly standard game selling strategy, but I don't appreciate it any more when other companies do it, if I buy a game that claims to be good and it turns out to be terrible, I am annoyed, when I download a patch that claims to be good but turns out to be terrible, I am annoyed.
<!--quoteo(post=1860188:date=Jul 12 2011, 11:48 PM:name=luns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (luns @ Jul 12 2011, 11:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860188"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i find it more funny seeing NS2HD talk about how every change is amazing, and great. Just watch some of his games from 180, amazing this, amazing that...the guy is sure selling the product but he sure isn't being honest at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That also, the games he shows are interesting, if only because it's nice to see a playable game, so I do like to watch the videos, but it's kind of annoying when he says something is amazing when on the screen in front of you there are obvious hitches and bugs and things not working properly.
Regardless of the imbalances (which SHOULD be expected, otherwise there's your problem), and imperfections, if I created what they've created I'd be just as excited to show it off to everyone, and sure as ###### wouldn't apologize to any of those on the boards who made the mistake of developing an unrealistic expectation to begin with...
EDIT: I do agree with Chris about the usefulness of "We're happy with Cysts right now," vs. "This is experimental," however I'm also pretty sure he's not among the moronic people that try to sue McDonalds for not putting a "This coffee is hot!" label on every cup.
It's beta. Everything is subject to change. This hasn't changed at any point in time. Stating that a feature is experimental is already redundant, but it's pretty obvious that main reason that was said at all was to quell... well, all of you, before you went and.... well it's too late I guess isn't it...
I can only hope that UWE ignores the immature/offensive comments but does listen to the constructive ones.
But I like to focus on whats good (except for certain issues, such as slow on hit in midair, yes if you are hit on ground you are hurt and will probably not move as fast, but in midair you don't have much friction, and you couldn't move in any way to go faster anyway. Except for lerks, but still slowing down midair is silly, maybe lower the acceleration instead?).
I don't think it is a lie when someone say that something is good and leave out what is bad, I would agree that it is only half the truth, but it is also the part of the truth that makes any sense to focus on. If friends told me every slight thing they disliked with a game they recommend, I would not buy it. even though I know they think it is good, and I also probably would think so, all the negativity would make me associate it with negativity.
tl;dr
If you ask friends for recommendations about games, try to avoid pessimists, they usually make it sound worse than it is, and yet if you buy it you will notice every flaw they pointed out and lose immersion, even if you otherwise wouldn't even have noticed them.
Regardless of the imbalances (which SHOULD be expected, otherwise there's your problem), and imperfections, if I created what they've created I'd be just as excited to show it off to everyone, and sure as ###### wouldn't apologize to any of those on the boards who made the mistake of developing an unrealistic expectation to begin with...
EDIT: I do agree with Chris about the usefulness of "We're happy with Cysts right now," vs. "This is experimental," however I'm also pretty sure he's not among the moronic people that try to sue McDonalds for not putting a "This coffee is hot!" label on every cup.
It's beta. Everything is subject to change. This hasn't changed at any point in time. Stating that a feature is experimental is already redundant, but it's pretty obvious that main reason that was said at all was to quell... well, all of you, before you went and.... well it's too late I guess isn't it...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm you and I have rather different approaches then, if I release a level I tell people the things I need testing, where to start looking for exploits and things, what I already know is wrong with it, what I need mass testing, what isn't finished yet, what probably won't work very well etc etc.
People work better if you tell them what they should be doing, I don't see what I gain by telling them it's really good, if it's good it will speak for itself, what I want from a testing group is useful testing data, things like 'yeah I managed to climb out of the level by doing this this and this' or 'hey there's a missing texture face at this place' or 'fell down this hole and couldn't get back out, add some clipping geometry'. Things like that are useful and the entire point of releasing something for testing, and you get more of that if you give people pointers, especially with amateur testers who probably won't do all of this automatically, most people though are nice enough to do it if you ask, give them specific questions to answer and things, like 'what do you think of this area, I don't know how it works exactly' or 'run around this place and see if you can get stuck anywhere because the geometry is a bit complex there'.
All of that makes your job a bit easier and lets you get back to improving the thing you're working on, and I find gives most people more patience. People saying things like 'oh this map is awesome' are no more helpful than people saying 'this map is terrible'. Useful feedback is preferred to compliments. In depth critical assessments more enjoyable than inane flattery.
when I download a patch that claims to be good but turns out to be terrible, I am annoyed.
but it's kind of annoying when he says something is amazing when on the screen in front of you there are obvious hitches and bugs and things not working properly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
not one dev has sold any patch with "marvellous" (sic) improvement.
when you download a patch and it isn't what you've built it up to be, either a) dont play or b) stop getting your hopes up
but regardless: getting mad at and blaming either an individual who posts youtube videos or devs who release patches of an unfinished game is just ridiculous.
sounds like you need to realign your viewpoint / expectations from this situation.. lest you be disappointed every youtube video and patch release?
we don't need more disgruntled / negative people in this community, i think is what the OP was going after, maybe being more on the supportive side if one is going to post, should be a way to demonstrate your obvious love for this title?
With 180 I was kinda late, so I read the thread before I played, and it was still annoying. I was expecting it to not be very good, but the difference between the patch notes and the feedback still annoyed me, it is very clear that there is a serious division between what UWE puts in the patch notes and what actually goes in the patches, and there shouldn't be. Like I said it's fine to say 'we don't know how this feature will work' but when half the forum is complaining about a patch for the same reasons, something is wrong.
I'm with Wilson anyway, really enjoying the latest build.
Huh? The patch notes is EXACTLY what was fixed/added for the patch. No misrepresentation. No lying. Patch notes are not going to list bugs, or issues, or balance problems, or people's personal opinions about what they think sucks.
To say we are hyping up these patches is pretty unfair. We aren't trying to pull one over on the community, we honestly are excited to get fixes and changes out there to you guys, and to test some new features out, so yes, we are enthusiastic when we've put a lot of work into a patch and its finished and being put out there for everyone to play.
Yes, something like cysts is problematic as is, but we were happy to finally get them in the game to try out, and are able to get a lot of feedback on them. Our smaller internal playtests are mostly good for finding large bugs and a general indication for how thing are working, but we don't have the time to put hours and hours of playtime into every patch to get the amount of data we really need to tell us how well something is working. This patch had a lot of stuff we were unsure about, but that's why we put it out there, so we could hear what you guys thought, so we could have a clearer understanding of what is working and what isn't. Yes, we are using you guys to help us test this stuff, and sometimes things have to get worse before they get better, and if you don't want to be part of that process, thats fine.
And, since we are talking about the patch notes, thats a pretty extensive list of fixes and improvements, that no one talks about, since everyone is so focused on the slow on damage, cysts, and lerk and fade changes. But hey, just as one example, Fades can crouch now, something people have been asking for for a long time in a lot of forum threads. Anyway, just saying there's a lot of good stuff in all the perceived bad stuff in this latest patch, so we have every right to be proud and excited about the work we put in to it. I'm fine with all the complaints, but don't start accusing us of some shady used car salesmen tactics or something.
--Cory
But the statement of Cory doesn't sound like this will be soon ^^
To say we are hyping up these patches is pretty unfair. We aren't trying to pull one over on the community, we honestly are excited to get fixes and changes out there to you guys, and to test some new features out, so yes, we are enthusiastic when we've put a lot of work into a patch and its finished and being put out there for everyone to play.
Yes, something like cysts is problematic as is, but we were happy to finally get them in the game to try out, and are able to get a lot of feedback on them. Our smaller internal playtests are mostly good for finding large bugs and a general indication for how thing are working, but we don't have the time to put hours and hours of playtime into every patch to get the amount of data we really need to tell us how well something is working. This patch had a lot of stuff we were unsure about, but that's why we put it out there, so we could hear what you guys thought, so we could have a clearer understanding of what is working and what isn't. Yes, we are using you guys to help us test this stuff, and sometimes things have to get worse before they get better, and if you don't want to be part of that process, thats fine.
And, since we are talking about the patch notes, thats a pretty extensive list of fixes and improvements, that no one talks about, since everyone is so focused on the slow on damage, cysts, and lerk and fade changes. But hey, just as one example, Fades can crouch now, something people have been asking for for a long time in a lot of forum threads. Anyway, just saying there's a lot of good stuff in all the perceived bad stuff in this latest patch, so we have every right to be proud and excited about the work we put in to it. I'm fine with all the complaints, but don't start accusing us of some shady used car salesmen tactics or something.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Remember Cory, the people who post on forums are usually the vocal minority. Possibly and probably including myself. I liked a ton of changes you guys made, I'm just too lazy to create a "GREAT WORK GUYS!" thread so instead I want to focus on the stuff that really sucks in this patch.
To say we are hyping up these patches is pretty unfair. We aren't trying to pull one over on the community, we honestly are excited to get fixes and changes out there to you guys, and to test some new features out, so yes, we are enthusiastic when we've put a lot of work into a patch and its finished and being put out there for everyone to play.
Yes, something like cysts is problematic as is, but we were happy to finally get them in the game to try out, and are able to get a lot of feedback on them. Our smaller internal playtests are mostly good for finding large bugs and a general indication for how thing are working, but we don't have the time to put hours and hours of playtime into every patch to get the amount of data we really need to tell us how well something is working. This patch had a lot of stuff we were unsure about, but that's why we put it out there, so we could hear what you guys thought, so we could have a clearer understanding of what is working and what isn't. Yes, we are using you guys to help us test this stuff, and sometimes things have to get worse before they get better, and if you don't want to be part of that process, thats fine.
And, since we are talking about the patch notes, thats a pretty extensive list of fixes and improvements, that no one talks about, since everyone is so focused on the slow on damage, cysts, and lerk and fade changes. But hey, just as one example, Fades can crouch now, something people have been asking for for a long time in a lot of forum threads. Anyway, just saying there's a lot of good stuff in all the perceived bad stuff in this latest patch, so we have every right to be proud and excited about the work we put in to it. I'm fine with all the complaints, but don't start accusing us of some shady used car salesmen tactics or something.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is actually a very fair point, there's no reason why developers excitement shouldn't be visible in their communication with their community, and taking this excitement as some bizarre form of deceit because it isn't completely objective is rather childish.
On another note I do find it refreshing that devs are actually fine with constructive criticism (though I can understand why people would be weary of criticism since majority of people don't put any though into their opinion before they voice it nor do they try to give any well presented arguments about it, rather just venting out on that early emotional reaction). I really like the style of game that's being created here, and I didn't come to this board out of some weird sense of entitlement because I spent some cash to order a copy early and get access to beta. I came here to voice my opinion because something seemed terribly wrong in the last patch and the devs had presented a request for people to voice their opinion. And honestly I think that as long they (you) don't fall into the trap Blizzard did where you try to please your community and end up in this infinite cycle of always letting you playerbase down because portion of them will be expecting something different, but rather use the community to probe and gather information about the game but in the end only use that information to enforce or question internal opinions, rather than directly trying to create what people ask of you (especially in after the testing is over and the game is released).
People work better if you tell them what they should be doing, I don't see what I gain by telling them it's really good, if it's good it will speak for itself, what I want from a testing group is useful testing data, things like 'yeah I managed to climb out of the level by doing this this and this' or 'hey there's a missing texture face at this place' or 'fell down this hole and couldn't get back out, add some clipping geometry'. Things like that are useful and the entire point of releasing something for testing, and you get more of that if you give people pointers, especially with amateur testers who probably won't do all of this automatically, most people though are nice enough to do it if you ask, give them specific questions to answer and things, like 'what do you think of this area, I don't know how it works exactly' or 'run around this place and see if you can get stuck anywhere because the geometry is a bit complex there'.
All of that makes your job a bit easier and lets you get back to improving the thing you're working on, and I find gives most people more patience. People saying things like 'oh this map is awesome' are no more helpful than people saying 'this map is terrible'. Useful feedback is preferred to compliments. In depth critical assessments more enjoyable than inane flattery.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't disagree on any particular point, other than the fact that most of them aren't here to work. UWE has hand-picked play-testers that probably get more or less the detail about each patch that you described, concerns, etc. and that's where they get the majority of their feedback that they can understandably put more faith in. I imagine that's what these tweets about gameplay discussions are for.
Difference is we aren't them. Not everyone who has pre-ordered did so to partake in the development process, and honestly not all of us here should be playtesters whose opinions UWE listens to, so they aren't going to address us en masse as such, because then even more people will develop a more unrealistic expectation or demand to have a voice, or some other unreasonable idiocity (not a word, I know).
Unfortunately, not everyone is here to help like you and I, some are just here to get what they want...
At least that's the vibe I get.
<!--quoteo(post=1860212:date=Jul 12 2011, 07:53 PM:name=Abalith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Abalith @ Jul 12 2011, 07:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860212"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the point being made is that there is a difference between constructive feedback and pointless whine. We need less of the whine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But mostly this.
You mean I can't get a '98 Ford Focus with new upholstery and only 2 previous owners from you? Damn!
if you're gonna be getting anything Ford related from the 90's make it a Bronco. Even UWE can't hustle you into a bad deal.
No, no, you can. Just ignore the check engine light that's on, (everything's fine, really) and you may need some stain remover to get rid of the blood--er--ketchup thats all over the inside of the trunk.
--Cory
I agree, The latest patch was a huge improvement with many new improvements.
<ul><li>The fixed the LoS issue with buildings and skulks trying to hide.</li><li>Added a first version of cysts (sweet!).</li><li>Marine armour welding, fade/marine/gorge vent usage (as mentioned above).</li><li>A first version of the new lerk (the flying was actually OK once I took an hour to practice, just make strafing and spikes better).</li><li>A brand new fade, that works great vs marines but he can no longer rape a marine base solo, so working as intended, but tweaking is needed. (this is why we see stalemates now, fade was the alien siege weapon).</li><li>They added "slow on hit" effect, and with it my skulk play has increased a lot! eliminates the mindless marine jump spam so it's only possible to do if you time it good or get lucky. had some side effects, but that is to be expected and will be sorted out. (haven't everything else been so far?)</li></ul>
And apart there was a heap of balance changes and tweaks, my favourites are IP building, skulk attack prio, GL cost, the shotgun idle animation (many of you complained about this one) and last, but not least, many nice changes to summit.
Some thing didn't work as expected, but wit this many new features that's bound to happen and will be tweaked and fixed. I just read the latest design doc update and that gave me even more confidence UWE, so keep up the good job!
I see:
<strike>- Possibly allow alien comms to switch between hives (or allow energy usage for all)</strike>
Is this no longer considered at all? or will it be addressed later? having to switch hives is the most annoying part of alien commanding.
It is truly quite embarassing the way I use the word 'amazing,' I must get a bigger vocabulary. Remember that video where I said 'fantastic' about 43 times? I think I have a new broken-record word... As for the 'dishonesty,' KuBan hits the nail on the head:
<!--quoteo(post=1860193:date=Jul 13 2011, 09:01 AM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Jul 13 2011, 09:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860193"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hugh (NS2HD) just seems like an enthusiastic and impassioned person. I may find it a bit excessive at times, but I don't hold it against him (or UWE)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just call it how I see it. I am naturally very excited and passionate about NS2. Because I have followed every build so intensely, I have developed extreme sensitivity to the slightest improvements, and I love talking about them! It's also worth remembering that I (Like many other behind-the-scenes community contributors) don't work for UWE, and I certainly don't consider myself the oracle of NS2 information.
I just want to make NS2 videos to show people the unique joys of NS play, the unique story of its development, and the unique people behind it.
I just call it how I see it. I am naturally very excited and passionate about NS2. Because I have followed every build so intensely, I have developed extreme sensitivity to the slightest improvements, and I love talking about them! It's also worth remembering that I (Like many other behind-the-scenes community contributors) don't work for UWE, and I certainly don't consider myself the oracle of NS2 information.
I just want to make NS2 videos to show people the unique joys of NS play, the unique story of its development, and the unique people behind it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think what people are saying is that a little critical thinking said out loud in your videos wouldn't hurt.
e.g "theyve changed the lerks spores to have a range of 20 meters max which can be quite frustrating for anyone who has played lerk until now.
<!--quoteo(post=1860314:date=Jul 13 2011, 06:26 AM:name=NS2HD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NS2HD @ Jul 13 2011, 06:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860314"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... I have developed extreme sensitivity to the slightest improvements, and I love talking about them! ...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
2 NS2HD: you're doing it right! It's nice to have video blog from somebody that is so excited and passionate about NS2.
And of course the developers have more time to develop, once they don't need to explain everything they do.
The change-log is generated from progress tracker (that is great). Video about a new features from community member. Great work all...
2 assbda: You must look on changes like 'spore range just 20m', like they are mutation in nature.
If developers/community figure out, that it is useless ... will be changed back (skulk leap in 2'nd hive, any1 ?).
If it's accepted and helps to improve game, change will stay and survive.
<i>(... it's called natural selection :o) )</i>
I just call it how I see it. I am naturally very excited and passionate about NS2. Because I have followed every build so intensely, I have developed extreme sensitivity to the slightest improvements, and I love talking about them! It's also worth remembering that I (Like many other behind-the-scenes community contributors) don't work for UWE, and I certainly don't consider myself the oracle of NS2 information.
I just want to make NS2 videos to show people the unique joys of NS play, the unique story of its development, and the unique people behind it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't listen to the haters, ur vids are great. If someone wants to watch an analytical review of all the changes, perhaps they should do it themselves.
I just call it how I see it. I am naturally very excited and passionate about NS2. Because I have followed every build so intensely, I have developed extreme sensitivity to the slightest improvements, and I love talking about them! It's also worth remembering that I (Like many other behind-the-scenes community contributors) don't work for UWE, and I certainly don't consider myself the oracle of NS2 information.
I just want to make NS2 videos to show people the unique joys of NS play, the unique story of its development, and the unique people behind it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your videos are what alerted me to NS2 and initially resparked my interest in a game I hadn't thought of in a couple of years. Keep it up mate.