I'm surprised I'm compelled to join into this debate. The devs have already said bunnyhopping in any form was not going to be in NS2. They want skill-based movement in a different more intuitive form.
For the people arguing that BH adds depth to the game, how can you say that but also claim it was not a determinate factor in competitive play? If BH gives any advantage to BHing players, it will have an effect on competitive play.
I was always more impressed by skillful use of blink/lerk/leap/charge than by BH skill. I think that is why the devs want to have interesting movement skills for NS2. I can see how people that enjoy BH would like it to be in a game (ns2), but it is extremely esoteric type of feature. It's quite counter-intuitive. Even if it was fully incorporated into a game and fully documented in tutorials, it would still be just an awkward movement skill.
Intuitive movement skills allow new players to learn quickly, but take time to master completely. This is important because new players are the lifeblood of any game, competitive or casual.
<!--quoteo(post=1872367:date=Aug 31 2011, 05:08 PM:name=culprit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (culprit @ Aug 31 2011, 05:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872367"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm surprised I'm compelled to join into this debate. The devs have already said bunnyhopping in any form was not going to be in NS2. They want skill-based movement in a different more intuitive form.
For the people arguing that BH adds depth to the game, how can you say that but also claim it was not a determinate factor in competitive play? If BH gives any advantage to BHing players, it will have an effect on competitive play.
I was always more impressed by skillful use of blink/lerk/leap/charge than by BH skill. I think that is why the devs want to have interesting movement skills for NS2. I can see how people that enjoy BH would like it to be in a game (ns2), but it is extremely esoteric type of feature. It's quite counter-intuitive. Even if it was fully incorporated into a game and fully documented in tutorials, it would still be just an awkward movement skill.
Intuitive movement skills allow new players to learn quickly, but take time to master completely. This is important because new players are the lifeblood of any game, competitive or casual.
OK, that's enough from me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> +1
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2011
I'm all for some kind of skill based movement that makes sense, but the NS1/HL1 bunnyhop made no physical sense whatsoever (why should you be able to go faster UPHILL than downhill...wtf?). It was an issue with the engine and if it never existed, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
<!--quoteo(post=1872367:date=Aug 31 2011, 03:08 PM:name=culprit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (culprit @ Aug 31 2011, 03:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872367"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm surprised I'm compelled to join into this debate. The devs have already said bunnyhopping in any form was not going to be in NS2. They want skill-based movement in a different more intuitive form.
For the people arguing that BH adds depth to the game, how can you say that but also claim it was not a determinate factor in competitive play? If BH gives any advantage to BHing players, it will have an effect on competitive play.
I was always more impressed by skillful use of blink/lerk/leap/charge than by BH skill. I think that is why the devs want to have interesting movement skills for NS2. I can see how people that enjoy BH would like it to be in a game (ns2), but it is extremely esoteric type of feature. It's quite counter-intuitive. Even if it was fully incorporated into a game and fully documented in tutorials, it would still be just an awkward movement skill.
Intuitive movement skills allow new players to learn quickly, but take time to master completely. This is important because new players are the lifeblood of any game, competitive or casual.
OK, that's enough from me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Devs have changed their mind drastically before and will again. Nothing is set in stone and to me BH was a huge part of NS1. If they cant replace BH with something better why not implement it in the mean time?
I may have misspoke in order to be argumentative. I do not speak for the entire pro BH movement. It was a skill that was used heavily by pro teams and players. It did add an advantage but only because it allowed for such growth. There was bunny hopping on my level that allowed me to gain speed, traverse the map, and make me a little harder to hit. Then there was the pro bunny hopping you see in videos making use of the rails and perfectly gauging the distances to maintain maximum velocity AND hit their target.
It was only esoteric because it was implemented poorly. A lot of people in the community taught others how and tried to get info out there. If it was included and embraced from the beginning, there would be a better result. It was awkward, but that is what made it great. You didn't just jump into a game and begin bunny hopping. It took effort and understanding. Once you got down the basics there were even higher levels of skill to attain. At top levels it was not only the movements but map layout and enemy prediction.
No one has an actual reason NOT to implement BH other than it is hard to learn or looks funny... Im not belittling your well written post (which is a breath of fresh air from the above person), but you really dont point out a reason other than what i just stated.
*edit* Quovatis, NS1 doesn't make a lot of physical sense anyway. This is another poor argument in my opinion. Plus it was an alien like dog, who is to say the Skulk doesn't have spring like cartilage in its legs to help with the BH? =)
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Making sense is a poor argument? Why don't we just make it where if you shoot the ceiling, jump on a box, then back on the ground in that order, you gain a 10% damage boost for 5 seconds. That makes about as much sense as BH does.
<!--quoteo(post=1872374:date=Aug 31 2011, 04:35 PM:name=Quovatis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Quovatis @ Aug 31 2011, 04:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872374"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Making sense is a poor argument? Why don't we just make it where if you shoot the ceiling, jump on a box, then back on the ground in that order, you gain a 10% damage boost for 5 seconds. That makes about as much sense as BH does.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If that mechanic was fun, who cares if it actually made sense? Can we go over the enormous list of things currently implemented in NS2 that "don't make sense"? Should we take out the commander magically being able to see the entire field because it "doesn't make sense"? How about the whole nanobot structure assembly thing? The list goes on and on.
Let's care less about realism and more about focusing on fun, interesting gameplay mechanics.
They're nanobots? They can construct a structure, they can be used to provide a sensor network to "see" near structures dispensing them and marines loaded up with them, it's still easier to explain so far.
It's hardly about realism as much as making reasonable sense within that universe's apparent rule sets. You can bend that sort of thing, and that's fine, but break it and it just becomes jarring, or hilariously mad looking. It's part of creating a style or atmosphere in any game, what sort of impression you want to make upon the player of what sort of world this is.
<!--quoteo(post=1872351:date=Aug 31 2011, 02:56 PM:name=vizionz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (vizionz @ Aug 31 2011, 02:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872351"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->P.S. - I was exi.longtermFX, if you knew anything about the original competitive NS1, you would know exigent. I do know what I am talking about in terms of bhopping and I do know that the only other teams that gave exigent or terror any form of run for their money were other teams that knew how to use bunny hopping effectively. Not a single team that didn't bunny hop made it anywhere close to being able to play against the top tier teams.
Who the hell are you again and when did you ever play NS1? It never decided anything? You have absolutely no clue what your talking about.
Your a meatball, where is the block feature on this forum again? I am getting sick of trolls licking my grundle.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> haha this guy's a crock. just to set the record straight, visionz (LongtermFX) was a friend of exigent but never actually played in a match for them. basically the extent of his activity in the ns community was trolling badly on IRC
LOL I KNEW IT i kept looking at the name and im like i know ive seen him in scrims b4 but not in matches lol. I was like this guy was not exi.. I was leader of Co* (confederacy) back then good to see u meb been forever.
I Bhopped (Never used a script , but did use MWheel up for that and MWheel down for firing) I played NS from day 1 i did not know how to bhop or what it was, along with the majority of people at that time. When Bhopping started becoming popular it became a huge necessity to learn how to do because of the advantage of being able to pop in and out of rooms at blazing fast speeds. From many peoples point of view i can understand the unfair advantage, but if i am able to play 15 hours a day and u can play 1 does that give me an unfair advantage as well. I do believe that this game needs some sort of dynamic movement to make aliens move quicker and the devs already say'd something would be implemented. So until the day comes when that is implemented and the Pros start to master it or its so ez that every1 does it and gives no real advantage, stop worrying about it and let the men make their game.
<!--quoteo(post=1872386:date=Aug 31 2011, 06:15 PM:name=meb3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (meb3 @ Aug 31 2011, 06:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872386"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->haha this guy's a crock. just to set the record straight, visionz (LongtermFX) was a friend of exigent but never actually played in a match for them. basically the extent of his activity in the ns community was trolling badly on IRC
cool guy<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I didn't play NS1 in tournaments solely because their was 0$ in it. Did I scrim with them here and there? Yes. Did I play NS1? Absolutely yes. Did I waste my time playing a game with no financial gain competitively? NOPE.
Sorry, I was busy making money playing other games.
Right now with the size of the maps in NS2, bunnyhop definitely isn't needed, there's no need to rush into vent or into FC. There are the vents that you can advantage of, there's certain spots, there's all these things, you can actually ambush. Once second hive is up, leaping is where it's at, again, no need for bunnyhopping the second that hive is up. Heck in NS1, I leap more than i actually bhop, jumping jacks hero over here.
Anyway, point is, right now i really don't mind if bunnyhopping is introduced into the game, but it definitely is not needed in the game right now. it'd only benefit the skulks, and even then once second hive is up, in NS2 all you need to do is leap, and you're good to go.
invTempestJoin Date: 2003-03-02Member: 14223Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
In my opinion, Bhop worked great for NS1, but is not needed in NS2. They should instead focus on developing another skilled movement (wall jumping) that is intuitive and doesn't look wonky as hell.
The only reason this topic is so heated is that people are not willing to give up a feature which gave them a clear advantage over others who could not do it.
PS - Meb is not a member of team anagram. Not sure why he thinks he is (Jealous?).
Its kind of weird to say "it looks weird" when strafing left/right while going forward looks also stupid, but gives little advantage when/if going towards marine. Maybe there shouldnt be strafing? I think its NS2 bug and should be removed on next patch
I'm speaking from my point if view but then again I'm top player in two most successful melee vs. range games.
I think people misunderstand purpose of BH in NS1; it's only one of many ways to get closer to marine and move from place A to B faster. I dare to say that alien’s main skill in nutshell is to get close as possibly to marines without taking any damage; this rule applies every range vs. game I know. This is done by three different ways: by ambushing, by teamwork and by skill-based movement (<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lu1H_Stv8ck" target="_blank">TTS</a> 4:00-4:07 first ambushing, second movement, third teamwork). Bunnyhop is vital part of NS skill-based movement but not the only element, in combat situation strafing is more important moving skill than bunnyhop. I like to also point out that ambushing or teamwork doesn't exclude skill-based movement, in fact in competitive match its better use these "methods" all at once. Classical example of this would be that first skulk takes all the damage by using skill-based movement and same time other skulks takes marines in rear. Player who only master one of these elements is in my books a noob, knowing how to bunnyhop doesn’t make anyone a good player. I have example of this: my mousewheel was broken during time I played in sprogga and I couldn't bunnyhop properly, though that didn't mean I was burden to my team. I could still be a good skulk due my awareness and teamwork skills, but I still wasn't same skulk I normally would be. Well, if the bunnyhoping wasn't such a god-skill why we need it in NS2? Because it enrich every aspect of NS1. Bunnyhop is quite predictable movement pattern but combining bunnyhop to other movement tricks made it greatness. I truly think blink+BH+meta combo is the best movement system ever and the second best is skulk's BH+strafing+wallhop. What bunnyhop gave to NS1 were more options to play, top player could be a top player without it but his creativeness was greatly limited.
L4D2 do have bunnyhop unlike most people think, but it's only used to gain speed because you can't change direction in air it’s very limited. It's the worst kind BH I have ever mastered but still Jockey class would have been removed from competitive games without it. I think L4D2 is good example for NS2 why skill-based movement is so freaking important, about 90% of L4D2 players likes hunter as the best class and about 99% of players hates jockey most. Even if hunter's movement is nothing compared to NS1 movement, it still has the best movement system from all infected. Jockey on other hand has to get close to survivals without any movement skill but very limited BH (which is really hard to master due 30 tickrate cap). Could this example mean that people actually find freedom of movement fun? I would also like to point out the link between aiming and movement in range vs. melee games. In NS1 there was no recoil but it wasn't exactly easy shoot aliens because speed and movement skill of aliens. Aiming will be super easy for good FPS players in NS2 if there won't be good skill-based movement system. L4D2 "avoided" this problem by adding recoil all expect to hunting rifle, but the problems now is that the best hunting rifle players (you can have only one HR in competitive match) wont miss a single bullet, it's just too easy because clumsy movement of melee side.
In nutshell range vs. melee game need complicated skill-based movement system and bunnyhop is the best movement system there is.
Even if bunnyhop was needed, it's fatal flaw is that it looks stupid. I think a lot of people wouldn't care if a bunnyhop type result could be gained while moving through some skill as long as <b><i><u>it didn't look completely stupid</b></i></u> (and NS1 bunny hop did look profoundy <b>stupid</b>.) Honestly, I don't get why supposedly skilled players can't adapt to not having the crutch. Skilled players take what they have available and work with it to the best effect, they don't complain about something that's not included because it's familiar.
<!--quoteo(post=1872472:date=Sep 1 2011, 03:38 AM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Sep 1 2011, 03:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872472"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Even if bunnyhop was needed, it's fatal flaw is that it looks stupid. I think a lot of people wouldn't care if a bunnyhop type result could be gained while moving through some skill as long as <b><i><u>it didn't look completely stupid</b></i></u> (and NS1 bunny hop did look profoundy <b>stupid</b>.) Honestly, I don't get why supposedly skilled players can't adapt to not having the crutch. Skilled players take what they have available and work with it to the best effect, they don't complain about something that's not included because it's familiar.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Azi you can come up with something better than this. It looks stupid isnt valid because most of NS1 looked stupid.
It isnt a crutch. We ( though i am far from a skilled player) only argue for it to be added becaus it adds complexity to a drab and slow movement system that is in place now. If there was something... anything in place of bh these arguements would pop up but not as frequently. All the devs are doing by not adding it is creating more work for themselves and adding more players to the list of ns1 4.0
Of course it's valid. Atmosphere plays a major part of a game. That's why rifles in NS2 don't fire rainbows and flowers, skulks don't sound like wet farts, and disco music doesn't play in the main menu. With increasing graphical capability comes increasing expectations of better looking games and better immersion. NS1 was made with half-life's engine, everything looked goofy in half-life, so NS1 made do. The spark engine is a vast improvement and thus more is expected.
It is a crutch, everyone has the a set movement speed they are intended to move at. You can climb up walls, jump over things, and eventually <b>fly around in the freaking sky.</b> The fade is a hairs breadth away from practically <b>walking through walls.</b> There's nothing drab and slow about the movement in NS2, people are getting upset because they can't cheat the system to get even faster than intended movement by spamming space bar. People keep claiming there's all these movement problems, that people feel sluggish, what do you want from this game? Why not just turn no-clip on permanently if it's that restricting, then everyone can fly through walls and nothing will slow you down. There's nothing drab about the movement, you can do all sorts of things, especially with aliens, if you can't handle spending some time on the ground not moving at hyper-speed I don't see how you play any shooter that isn't Unreal Tournament.
Complexity, is not a good enough reason to add something unless it's already lacking. A marine can move in all directions allowed by physics, eventually he'll get even more more capable by flying around with jet packs. Bunny hopping doesn't make movement more complex, it makes it faster, that's what it does, that's what it was for, and that's why some people want it. They want to zoom around the map by spamming space bar and they don't want to just increase the overall speed of everyone because then they wouldn't have an advantage over those people who don't bunny hop(which isn't to be construed as a bad thing, you should have an advantage if the game play skill is supposed to be part of the game, but in NS2, it's not.)
With aliens it's even more obvious, you can move up walls, slide across floors, fly through the air already, teleport around, any more complex movement and you'll be time traveling or stepping into the tenth dimension.
I see constant attacks from people about how NS2 is becoming too new school, too streamlined, too modern, and bunny hopping, whether you like it or not, is a relic of the past due to a poor physics engine. If I had to guess, it's less about complexity and more about acting like curmudgeons about anything new, which is in turn a result of a common nerd trait of hating anything that 's "popular" because that apparently makes them unique, unlike all those sheep who like regenerating health, cover buttons, iron sights, and not seeing everyone hop around like they're having a grand mal seizure.
Honestly, I'm sick of the elitism, I'm sick of people trying to drive people away from NS2 because they can't adapt to modern times and modern game play. If you want bunny hopping, you're free to jump onto half-life and bunny hop to your hearts content, if you want "skill based movement" the devs are already looking into adding movement that fits with the theme and atmosphere of the game, that should be enough, but it's always the same complaint that its not bunny hopping. There's nothing miraculous and wonderful about bunny hopping, it's not an extraordinary skill, it's not amazing to look at, it doesn't even look good, yet despite the devs already working to add wall leaping people still go back to moaning that they can't bunny hop. This, if anything indicates to me it's not about "skill based movement." It's about nostalgia, laziness, and an overall unwillingness to accept that you aren't more hard core because you played old school games. Most of us have, but those who played them also understood why things were changed so be less irritating. We remembered looking for stupid canteens of health in Medal of Honor before they had regenerating health, we remember obnoxious crouch buttons that didn't keep you low enough before stick to cover was included, we remember iron armed soldiers running around with static crosshairs that didn't change no matter what you did, hell we remember (and still find it common) that our protagonists have no bloody legs and feet 90% of the time. We remember gun barrels sticking out of our chest from Doom, we remember huge obscuring HUD's from Castle Wulfenstein, we remember not being able to look upward in Doom.
Much of that stuff is gone now, and to most of it <b>GOOD RIDDANCE.</b> Clinging to the past out of some bizarre idea that it somehow makes you better than all these new snot nosed kids and their Halo/MWF2 might be fine in old school games, but NS2 is coming into the new generation of games, it's kept some older aspects, but to expect everything to stay static, to expect NS1 with updated graphics is unrealistic. They can, and will do more.
Bunny Hopping is a crutch. It's a hold over from older times that allowed players to spam a button to move faster. People are refusing to give it up because its comfortable and familiar and plainly effective. But that is not sufficient reason to keep it around when it violates the atmosphere of the game.
You want skill based movement, they're making it, you want bunny hopping, its obviously not in the game, its time for people to start accepting that and exploring the new opportunities they're giving you (jump packs, flying, teleportation, wall running) and move on, leave bunny hop in the museum, where it belongs.
Atmosphere is mere introducer, nobody plays game over and over again just because it "looks cool".
Referring to bunnyhop "jumpspam" is hardly giving you any creditability, yet you are ready to lock up in your personal historyvault without knowing what you are talking about? Hater perhaps?
Elitistic or not it is such a handy word when you cant come up with an argument but whatever you may believe most people do not argue for bunnyhop because it gives them an edge or they are too lazy to "learn new stuff" yet alone nostalgia. They argue for it <b>because it is still fun</b> it has depth after all these years they have played NS. Not many game can do that.
IMO UWE has not given a good image when it comes desingning movement (key element in melee vs ranged) or gameplay in general, it is very unlikely they are to invent a real skillbased system (for melee) that scales well with every skill level yet alone anything as good as bunnyhop. This is one of the reasons why bunnyhop comes into discussion every now and then.
All the bhopping opinions aside, I think it's vital that two things get adressed in some way or the other:
1.) The melee team needs ways to scale in skill with the ranged team aiming skill.
2.) The melee team needs ways to improve their own play and make themselves less reliant on the opponent simply playing bad or making a mistake.
In NS1 bhopping affected those greatly and even with the very intense movement challenges the aliens had, the marine team still ended up gaining more and more edge as the skill levels went higher.
Unless the devs are feeling seriously lucky and simply hoping the issues vanish as an unintentional side effect of some other design, they have to address those one way or the other. The longer they're sitting back with this, the more hurry they're in creating a solution. The more hurry they're in, the more likely it is that the solution is either terrible or somewhat direct copy of NS1.
I play a game because of atmosphere, and would be turned off the game if it was simple blocks shooting efficiently at each at insane FPS and allowed players to gain insane adavantages if they sang Yankee Doodle backwards to the tune of a McDonalds advert.
Why are games based on the Aliens, and Preditor movies so popular ? It aint because of bunny hopping... or depth of skill. Why did MW 2 makes so much cash for Activision ? So did Black Op, and no doubt MW 3 will rake in insane amounts of cash.
Atmosphere, players crave the atmosphere from the Aliens or Preditor movies, or the atmosphere of a combat zone as depicted from war movies and combat footage. You cant say MW2 or Black Ops has any depth skillwise, just achievements and streaks... same with the AvP or any Alien movie based game.
There is already scope for skill in NS 2, or would you argue that a skilled player would have exactly the same impact on the game, as a unskilled player ? Skills that are unintuitive and not gained by playing the game do not represent skill at that game, merely represents the fact the player is willing to go to extra effort to research and discover glitches and advantages over other players.
<!--quoteo(post=1872489:date=Sep 1 2011, 12:37 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Sep 1 2011, 12:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872489"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All the bhopping opinions aside, I think it's vital that two things get adressed in some way or the other:
1.) The melee team needs ways to scale in skill with the ranged team aiming skill.
2.) The melee team needs ways to improve their own play and make themselves less reliant on the opponent simply playing bad or making a mistake.
In NS1 bhopping affected those greatly and even with the very intense movement challenges the aliens had, the marine team still ended up gaining more and more edge as the skill levels went higher.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with you Bacillus. I get the sense that the way the game is currently going, once players have mastered the mechanics then the marine team will have a large advantage. If skulks don't have any way to move that scales with ability then there will come a point where very good marine players become untouchable unless they make a mistake.
This will make the only viable alien strategy to attack in large groups and hope that the marines don't kill you all. If the marines work together it will be extremely difficult.
IMO the only reason skulks aren't getting destroyed currently is because of technical problems. Their animations are really bad. They can spam jump and move all around in very unpredictable ways. Together with poor performance this makes the skulks hard to kill. I'm sure all of this will improve in the coming months though.
I also think the only reason for the large alien win % in recent builds is because of blatant imbalances. Once the game is balanced properly then the marines will have the edge as aiming well will give them an advantage that the aliens have no answer to.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
you are talking about how things will play out in future, but ignoring the fact that in parallel to improving performance, features are being added to the game. If you would have followed the development, you would have also known that skill based movement is something that is already planned. If I'm not wrong now, there was even said that something unique for each class is planned
<!--quoteo(post=1872498:date=Sep 1 2011, 01:22 PM:name=Schimmel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Schimmel @ Sep 1 2011, 01:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872498"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you are talking about how things will play out in future, but ignoring the fact that in parallel to improving performance, features are being added to the game. If you would have followed the development, you would have also known that skill based movement is something that is already planned. If I'm not wrong now, there was even said that something unique for each class is planned<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do follow development. I am aware that they said they are going to try and add in some skill based movement. I was simply expressing my thoughts about how the game would be if the movement remained the same as it is now.
<!--quoteo(post=1872487:date=Sep 1 2011, 01:24 AM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Sep 1 2011, 01:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872487"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Atmosphere is mere introducer, nobody plays game over and over again just because it "looks cool".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah they do, that's part of the fun of the game. Atmosphere is a giant chunk of what makes a game fun. Dead Space is fun because it's atmospheric and spooky with fun gameplay mechanics. If Dead Space had all the game play mechanics but the atmosphere was totally bland and thematically inappropriate then it wouldn't be as fun.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Referring to bunnyhop "jumpspam" is hardly giving you any creditability, yet you are ready to lock up in your personal historyvault without knowing what you are talking about? Hater perhaps?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ultimately bunny hopping is jump spamming, granted at specific intervals, it still requires jumping over and over and over. Regardless, how its referred to isn't relevant to what it ultimately is, an antiquated and thematically inappropriate style of movement that can be replaced.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Elitistic or not it is such a handy word when you cant come up with an argument but whatever you may believe most people do not argue for bunnyhop because it gives them an edge or they are too lazy to "learn new stuff" yet alone nostalgia. They argue for it <b>because it is still fun</b> it has depth after all these years they have played NS. Not many game can do that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The evidence is all around the forums, you'll constantly see people screaming "This isn't MWF2!" "Go back to Battlefield 2 kid!" If they were arguing for it solely because it had depth then they wouldn't have an issue examining the already present depth in the plethora of movement around. They wouldn't be against bunny hop being replaced by wall bounding for skulks. The team is already working on a thematically appropriate alternative yet people are still complaining, if the depth makes it fun and the depth is still around/being introduced in new forms there's no reason to complain. Evidence points instead to it being a matter of it not being depth, but it not being <b>bunny hop</b>
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->IMO UWE has not given a good image when it comes desingning movement (key element in melee vs ranged) or gameplay in general, it is very unlikely they are to invent a real skillbased system (for melee) that scales well with every skill level yet alone anything as good as bunnyhop. This is one of the reasons why bunnyhop comes into discussion every now and then.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Uh huh. So the flying, teleporting, and wall walking are not interesting types of movement? UWE has done more for movement in this one game than almost any game has done in years. Once again evidence is against you, UWE has at this current point, 3 unique types of movement (flying, teleportation, wall walking) besides the standard jump and run, while the games people get misty eyed about, Quake, Unreal, don't even match that.
<!--quoteo(post=1872489:date=Sep 1 2011, 01:37 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Sep 1 2011, 01:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872489"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All the bhopping opinions aside, I think it's vital that two things get adressed in some way or the other:
1.) The melee team needs ways to scale in skill with the ranged team aiming skill.
2.) The melee team needs ways to improve their own play and make themselves less reliant on the opponent simply playing bad or making a mistake.
In NS1 bhopping affected those greatly and even with the very intense movement challenges the aliens had, the marine team still ended up gaining more and more edge as the skill levels went higher.
Unless the devs are feeling seriously lucky and simply hoping the issues vanish as an unintentional side effect of some other design, they have to address those one way or the other. The longer they're sitting back with this, the more hurry they're in creating a solution. The more hurry they're in, the more likely it is that the solution is either terrible or somewhat direct copy of NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> They're working on a wall bounding system designed to shift skulks quickly from surface to surface to gain speed and make him a hard target without it becoming a hop fest. The fade teleports obviously and the Lerk flies, both of which require skill to remain evasive and to strike at the proper position. The skulk is really the only one left without, and his fix is coming. You'll have your skill based movement, it's just going to look right for the atmosphere.
You could argue that skulks already have skill-based movement. The good ones are all over the place, glitching their animation between walls/ceiling/floor and taking you out, bite by bite.
The "normal" ones run towards you or ambush you and pretty much run in circles or randomly dart back and forth until either you or they are dead.
The animation exploit give those who know about it an advantage over those who don't know about it. In other words, skill based movement.
Comments
For the people arguing that BH adds depth to the game, how can you say that but also claim it was not a determinate factor in competitive play? If BH gives any advantage to BHing players, it will have an effect on competitive play.
I was always more impressed by skillful use of blink/lerk/leap/charge than by BH skill. I think that is why the devs want to have interesting movement skills for NS2. I can see how people that enjoy BH would like it to be in a game (ns2), but it is extremely esoteric type of feature. It's quite counter-intuitive. Even if it was fully incorporated into a game and fully documented in tutorials, it would still be just an awkward movement skill.
Intuitive movement skills allow new players to learn quickly, but take time to master completely. This is important because new players are the lifeblood of any game, competitive or casual.
OK, that's enough from me.
For the people arguing that BH adds depth to the game, how can you say that but also claim it was not a determinate factor in competitive play? If BH gives any advantage to BHing players, it will have an effect on competitive play.
I was always more impressed by skillful use of blink/lerk/leap/charge than by BH skill. I think that is why the devs want to have interesting movement skills for NS2. I can see how people that enjoy BH would like it to be in a game (ns2), but it is extremely esoteric type of feature. It's quite counter-intuitive. Even if it was fully incorporated into a game and fully documented in tutorials, it would still be just an awkward movement skill.
Intuitive movement skills allow new players to learn quickly, but take time to master completely. This is important because new players are the lifeblood of any game, competitive or casual.
OK, that's enough from me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
For the people arguing that BH adds depth to the game, how can you say that but also claim it was not a determinate factor in competitive play? If BH gives any advantage to BHing players, it will have an effect on competitive play.
I was always more impressed by skillful use of blink/lerk/leap/charge than by BH skill. I think that is why the devs want to have interesting movement skills for NS2. I can see how people that enjoy BH would like it to be in a game (ns2), but it is extremely esoteric type of feature. It's quite counter-intuitive. Even if it was fully incorporated into a game and fully documented in tutorials, it would still be just an awkward movement skill.
Intuitive movement skills allow new players to learn quickly, but take time to master completely. This is important because new players are the lifeblood of any game, competitive or casual.
OK, that's enough from me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Devs have changed their mind drastically before and will again. Nothing is set in stone and to me BH was a huge part of NS1. If they cant replace BH with something better why not implement it in the mean time?
I may have misspoke in order to be argumentative. I do not speak for the entire pro BH movement. It was a skill that was used heavily by pro teams and players. It did add an advantage but only because it allowed for such growth. There was bunny hopping on my level that allowed me to gain speed, traverse the map, and make me a little harder to hit. Then there was the pro bunny hopping you see in videos making use of the rails and perfectly gauging the distances to maintain maximum velocity AND hit their target.
It was only esoteric because it was implemented poorly. A lot of people in the community taught others how and tried to get info out there. If it was included and embraced from the beginning, there would be a better result. It was awkward, but that is what made it great. You didn't just jump into a game and begin bunny hopping. It took effort and understanding. Once you got down the basics there were even higher levels of skill to attain. At top levels it was not only the movements but map layout and enemy prediction.
No one has an actual reason NOT to implement BH other than it is hard to learn or looks funny... Im not belittling your well written post (which is a breath of fresh air from the above person), but you really dont point out a reason other than what i just stated.
*edit* Quovatis, NS1 doesn't make a lot of physical sense anyway. This is another poor argument in my opinion. Plus it was an alien like dog, who is to say the Skulk doesn't have spring like cartilage in its legs to help with the BH? =)
If that mechanic was fun, who cares if it actually made sense? Can we go over the enormous list of things currently implemented in NS2 that "don't make sense"? Should we take out the commander magically being able to see the entire field because it "doesn't make sense"? How about the whole nanobot structure assembly thing? The list goes on and on.
Let's care less about realism and more about focusing on fun, interesting gameplay mechanics.
I think NS666 would be realistic and would make sense
It's hardly about realism as much as making reasonable sense within that universe's apparent rule sets. You can bend that sort of thing, and that's fine, but break it and it just becomes jarring, or hilariously mad looking. It's part of creating a style or atmosphere in any game, what sort of impression you want to make upon the player of what sort of world this is.
Who the hell are you again and when did you ever play NS1? It never decided anything? You have absolutely no clue what your talking about.
Your a meatball, where is the block feature on this forum again? I am getting sick of trolls licking my grundle.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
haha this guy's a crock. just to set the record straight, visionz (LongtermFX) was a friend of exigent but never actually played in a match for them. basically the extent of his activity in the ns community was trolling badly on IRC
cool guy
I Bhopped (Never used a script , but did use MWheel up for that and MWheel down for firing)
I played NS from day 1 i did not know how to bhop or what it was, along with the majority of people at that time. When Bhopping started becoming popular it became a huge necessity to learn how to do because of the advantage of being able to pop in and out of rooms at blazing fast speeds.
From many peoples point of view i can understand the unfair advantage, but if i am able to play 15 hours a day and u can play 1 does that give me an unfair advantage as well. I do believe that this game needs some sort of dynamic movement to make aliens move quicker and the devs already say'd something would be implemented. So until the day comes when that is implemented and the Pros start to master it or its so ez that every1 does it and gives no real advantage, stop worrying about it and let the men make their game.
Lets just hope change is a good thing
cool guy<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't play NS1 in tournaments solely because their was 0$ in it. Did I scrim with them here and there? Yes. Did I play NS1? Absolutely yes. Did I waste my time playing a game with no financial gain competitively? NOPE.
Sorry, I was busy making money playing other games.
P.S. - When did you join anagram again?
Anyway, point is, right now i really don't mind if bunnyhopping is introduced into the game, but it definitely is not needed in the game right now. it'd only benefit the skulks, and even then once second hive is up, in NS2 all you need to do is leap, and you're good to go.
The only reason this topic is so heated is that people are not willing to give up a feature which gave them a clear advantage over others who could not do it.
PS - Meb is not a member of team anagram. Not sure why he thinks he is (Jealous?).
until then, scrims only for me!
I think people misunderstand purpose of BH in NS1; it's only one of many ways to get closer to marine and move from place A to B faster. I dare to say that alien’s main skill in nutshell is to get close as possibly to marines without taking any damage; this rule applies every range vs. game I know. This is done by three different ways: by ambushing, by teamwork and by skill-based movement (<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lu1H_Stv8ck" target="_blank">TTS</a> 4:00-4:07 first ambushing, second movement, third teamwork). Bunnyhop is vital part of NS skill-based movement but not the only element, in combat situation strafing is more important moving skill than bunnyhop. I like to also point out that ambushing or teamwork doesn't exclude skill-based movement, in fact in competitive match its better use these "methods" all at once. Classical example of this would be that first skulk takes all the damage by using skill-based movement and same time other skulks takes marines in rear.
Player who only master one of these elements is in my books a noob, knowing how to bunnyhop doesn’t make anyone a good player. I have example of this: my mousewheel was broken during time I played in sprogga and I couldn't bunnyhop properly, though that didn't mean I was burden to my team. I could still be a good skulk due my awareness and teamwork skills, but I still wasn't same skulk I normally would be.
Well, if the bunnyhoping wasn't such a god-skill why we need it in NS2? Because it enrich every aspect of NS1. Bunnyhop is quite predictable movement pattern but combining bunnyhop to other movement tricks made it greatness. I truly think blink+BH+meta combo is the best movement system ever and the second best is skulk's BH+strafing+wallhop. What bunnyhop gave to NS1 were more options to play, top player could be a top player without it but his creativeness was greatly limited.
L4D2 do have bunnyhop unlike most people think, but it's only used to gain speed because you can't change direction in air it’s very limited. It's the worst kind BH I have ever mastered but still Jockey class would have been removed from competitive games without it. I think L4D2 is good example for NS2 why skill-based movement is so freaking important, about 90% of L4D2 players likes hunter as the best class and about 99% of players hates jockey most. Even if hunter's movement is nothing compared to NS1 movement, it still has the best movement system from all infected. Jockey on other hand has to get close to survivals without any movement skill but very limited BH (which is really hard to master due 30 tickrate cap). Could this example mean that people actually find freedom of movement fun?
I would also like to point out the link between aiming and movement in range vs. melee games. In NS1 there was no recoil but it wasn't exactly easy shoot aliens because speed and movement skill of aliens. Aiming will be super easy for good FPS players in NS2 if there won't be good skill-based movement system. L4D2 "avoided" this problem by adding recoil all expect to hunting rifle, but the problems now is that the best hunting rifle players (you can have only one HR in competitive match) wont miss a single bullet, it's just too easy because clumsy movement of melee side.
In nutshell range vs. melee game need complicated skill-based movement system and bunnyhop is the best movement system there is.
Honestly, I don't get why supposedly skilled players can't adapt to not having the crutch. Skilled players take what they have available and work with it to the best effect, they don't complain about something that's not included because it's familiar.
Honestly, I don't get why supposedly skilled players can't adapt to not having the crutch. Skilled players take what they have available and work with it to the best effect, they don't complain about something that's not included because it's familiar.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Azi you can come up with something better than this. It looks stupid isnt valid because most of NS1 looked stupid.
It isnt a crutch. We ( though i am far from a skilled player) only argue for it to be added becaus it adds complexity to a drab and slow movement system that is in place now. If there was something... anything in place of bh these arguements would pop up but not as frequently. All the devs are doing by not adding it is creating more work for themselves and adding more players to the list of ns1 4.0
It is a crutch, everyone has the a set movement speed they are intended to move at. You can climb up walls, jump over things, and eventually <b>fly around in the freaking sky.</b> The fade is a hairs breadth away from practically <b>walking through walls.</b> There's nothing drab and slow about the movement in NS2, people are getting upset because they can't cheat the system to get even faster than intended movement by spamming space bar. People keep claiming there's all these movement problems, that people feel sluggish, what do you want from this game? Why not just turn no-clip on permanently if it's that restricting, then everyone can fly through walls and nothing will slow you down. There's nothing drab about the movement, you can do all sorts of things, especially with aliens, if you can't handle spending some time on the ground not moving at hyper-speed I don't see how you play any shooter that isn't Unreal Tournament.
Complexity, is not a good enough reason to add something unless it's already lacking. A marine can move in all directions allowed by physics, eventually he'll get even more more capable by flying around with jet packs. Bunny hopping doesn't make movement more complex, it makes it faster, that's what it does, that's what it was for, and that's why some people want it. They want to zoom around the map by spamming space bar and they don't want to just increase the overall speed of everyone because then they wouldn't have an advantage over those people who don't bunny hop(which isn't to be construed as a bad thing, you should have an advantage if the game play skill is supposed to be part of the game, but in NS2, it's not.)
With aliens it's even more obvious, you can move up walls, slide across floors, fly through the air already, teleport around, any more complex movement and you'll be time traveling or stepping into the tenth dimension.
I see constant attacks from people about how NS2 is becoming too new school, too streamlined, too modern, and bunny hopping, whether you like it or not, is a relic of the past due to a poor physics engine. If I had to guess, it's less about complexity and more about acting like curmudgeons about anything new, which is in turn a result of a common nerd trait of hating anything that 's "popular" because that apparently makes them unique, unlike all those sheep who like regenerating health, cover buttons, iron sights, and not seeing everyone hop around like they're having a grand mal seizure.
Honestly, I'm sick of the elitism, I'm sick of people trying to drive people away from NS2 because they can't adapt to modern times and modern game play. If you want bunny hopping, you're free to jump onto half-life and bunny hop to your hearts content, if you want "skill based movement" the devs are already looking into adding movement that fits with the theme and atmosphere of the game, that should be enough, but it's always the same complaint that its not bunny hopping. There's nothing miraculous and wonderful about bunny hopping, it's not an extraordinary skill, it's not amazing to look at, it doesn't even look good, yet despite the devs already working to add wall leaping people still go back to moaning that they can't bunny hop. This, if anything indicates to me it's not about "skill based movement." It's about nostalgia, laziness, and an overall unwillingness to accept that you aren't more hard core because you played old school games. Most of us have, but those who played them also understood why things were changed so be less irritating. We remembered looking for stupid canteens of health in Medal of Honor before they had regenerating health, we remember obnoxious crouch buttons that didn't keep you low enough before stick to cover was included, we remember iron armed soldiers running around with static crosshairs that didn't change no matter what you did, hell we remember (and still find it common) that our protagonists have no bloody legs and feet 90% of the time. We remember gun barrels sticking out of our chest from Doom, we remember huge obscuring HUD's from Castle Wulfenstein, we remember not being able to look upward in Doom.
Much of that stuff is gone now, and to most of it <b>GOOD RIDDANCE.</b> Clinging to the past out of some bizarre idea that it somehow makes you better than all these new snot nosed kids and their Halo/MWF2 might be fine in old school games, but NS2 is coming into the new generation of games, it's kept some older aspects, but to expect everything to stay static, to expect NS1 with updated graphics is unrealistic. They can, and will do more.
Bunny Hopping is a crutch. It's a hold over from older times that allowed players to spam a button to move faster. People are refusing to give it up because its comfortable and familiar and plainly effective. But that is not sufficient reason to keep it around when it violates the atmosphere of the game.
You want skill based movement, they're making it, you want bunny hopping, its obviously not in the game, its time for people to start accepting that and exploring the new opportunities they're giving you (jump packs, flying, teleportation, wall running) and move on, leave bunny hop in the museum, where it belongs.
Referring to bunnyhop "jumpspam" is hardly giving you any creditability, yet you are ready to lock up in your personal historyvault without knowing what you are talking about? Hater perhaps?
Elitistic or not it is such a handy word when you cant come up with an argument but whatever you may believe most people do not argue for bunnyhop because it gives them an edge or they are too lazy to "learn new stuff" yet alone nostalgia. They argue for it <b>because it is still fun</b> it has depth after all these years they have played NS. Not many game can do that.
IMO UWE has not given a good image when it comes desingning movement (key element in melee vs ranged) or gameplay in general, it is very unlikely they are to invent a real skillbased system (for melee) that scales well with every skill level yet alone anything as good as bunnyhop. This is one of the reasons why bunnyhop comes into discussion every now and then.
1.) The melee team needs ways to scale in skill with the ranged team aiming skill.
2.) The melee team needs ways to improve their own play and make themselves less reliant on the opponent simply playing bad or making a mistake.
In NS1 bhopping affected those greatly and even with the very intense movement challenges the aliens had, the marine team still ended up gaining more and more edge as the skill levels went higher.
Unless the devs are feeling seriously lucky and simply hoping the issues vanish as an unintentional side effect of some other design, they have to address those one way or the other. The longer they're sitting back with this, the more hurry they're in creating a solution. The more hurry they're in, the more likely it is that the solution is either terrible or somewhat direct copy of NS1.
Why are games based on the Aliens, and Preditor movies so popular ? It aint because of bunny hopping... or depth of skill.
Why did MW 2 makes so much cash for Activision ? So did Black Op, and no doubt MW 3 will rake in insane amounts of cash.
Atmosphere, players crave the atmosphere from the Aliens or Preditor movies, or the atmosphere of a combat zone as depicted from war movies and combat footage.
You cant say MW2 or Black Ops has any depth skillwise, just achievements and streaks... same with the AvP or any Alien movie based game.
There is already scope for skill in NS 2, or would you argue that a skilled player would have exactly the same impact on the game, as a unskilled player ?
Skills that are unintuitive and not gained by playing the game do not represent skill at that game, merely represents the fact the player is willing to go to extra effort to research and discover glitches and advantages over other players.
1.) The melee team needs ways to scale in skill with the ranged team aiming skill.
2.) The melee team needs ways to improve their own play and make themselves less reliant on the opponent simply playing bad or making a mistake.
In NS1 bhopping affected those greatly and even with the very intense movement challenges the aliens had, the marine team still ended up gaining more and more edge as the skill levels went higher.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with you Bacillus. I get the sense that the way the game is currently going, once players have mastered the mechanics then the marine team will have a large advantage. If skulks don't have any way to move that scales with ability then there will come a point where very good marine players become untouchable unless they make a mistake.
This will make the only viable alien strategy to attack in large groups and hope that the marines don't kill you all. If the marines work together it will be extremely difficult.
IMO the only reason skulks aren't getting destroyed currently is because of technical problems. Their animations are really bad. They can spam jump and move all around in very unpredictable ways. Together with poor performance this makes the skulks hard to kill. I'm sure all of this will improve in the coming months though.
I also think the only reason for the large alien win % in recent builds is because of blatant imbalances. Once the game is balanced properly then the marines will have the edge as aiming well will give them an advantage that the aliens have no answer to.
I do follow development. I am aware that they said they are going to try and add in some skill based movement. I was simply expressing my thoughts about how the game would be if the movement remained the same as it is now.
Yeah they do, that's part of the fun of the game. Atmosphere is a giant chunk of what makes a game fun. Dead Space is fun because it's atmospheric and spooky with fun gameplay mechanics. If Dead Space had all the game play mechanics but the atmosphere was totally bland and thematically inappropriate then it wouldn't be as fun.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Referring to bunnyhop "jumpspam" is hardly giving you any creditability, yet you are ready to lock up in your personal historyvault without knowing what you are talking about? Hater perhaps?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ultimately bunny hopping is jump spamming, granted at specific intervals, it still requires jumping over and over and over. Regardless, how its referred to isn't relevant to what it ultimately is, an antiquated and thematically inappropriate style of movement that can be replaced.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Elitistic or not it is such a handy word when you cant come up with an argument but whatever you may believe most people do not argue for bunnyhop because it gives them an edge or they are too lazy to "learn new stuff" yet alone nostalgia. They argue for it <b>because it is still fun</b> it has depth after all these years they have played NS. Not many game can do that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The evidence is all around the forums, you'll constantly see people screaming "This isn't MWF2!" "Go back to Battlefield 2 kid!" If they were arguing for it solely because it had depth then they wouldn't have an issue examining the already present depth in the plethora of movement around. They wouldn't be against bunny hop being replaced by wall bounding for skulks. The team is already working on a thematically appropriate alternative yet people are still complaining, if the depth makes it fun and the depth is still around/being introduced in new forms there's no reason to complain. Evidence points instead to it being a matter of it not being depth, but it not being <b>bunny hop</b>
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->IMO UWE has not given a good image when it comes desingning movement (key element in melee vs ranged) or gameplay in general, it is very unlikely they are to invent a real skillbased system (for melee) that scales well with every skill level yet alone anything as good as bunnyhop. This is one of the reasons why bunnyhop comes into discussion every now and then.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh huh. So the flying, teleporting, and wall walking are not interesting types of movement? UWE has done more for movement in this one game than almost any game has done in years. Once again evidence is against you, UWE has at this current point, 3 unique types of movement (flying, teleportation, wall walking) besides the standard jump and run, while the games people get misty eyed about, Quake, Unreal, don't even match that.
<!--quoteo(post=1872489:date=Sep 1 2011, 01:37 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Sep 1 2011, 01:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872489"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All the bhopping opinions aside, I think it's vital that two things get adressed in some way or the other:
1.) The melee team needs ways to scale in skill with the ranged team aiming skill.
2.) The melee team needs ways to improve their own play and make themselves less reliant on the opponent simply playing bad or making a mistake.
In NS1 bhopping affected those greatly and even with the very intense movement challenges the aliens had, the marine team still ended up gaining more and more edge as the skill levels went higher.
Unless the devs are feeling seriously lucky and simply hoping the issues vanish as an unintentional side effect of some other design, they have to address those one way or the other. The longer they're sitting back with this, the more hurry they're in creating a solution. The more hurry they're in, the more likely it is that the solution is either terrible or somewhat direct copy of NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They're working on a wall bounding system designed to shift skulks quickly from surface to surface to gain speed and make him a hard target without it becoming a hop fest. The fade teleports obviously and the Lerk flies, both of which require skill to remain evasive and to strike at the proper position. The skulk is really the only one left without, and his fix is coming. You'll have your skill based movement, it's just going to look right for the atmosphere.
The good ones are all over the place, glitching their animation between walls/ceiling/floor and taking you out, bite by bite.
The "normal" ones run towards you or ambush you and pretty much run in circles or randomly dart back and forth until either you or they are dead.
The animation exploit give those who know about it an advantage over those who don't know about it. In other words, skill based movement.