dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2011
Awesome, thx twiliteblue.
HBZ is running this now. I increase the radius to 40 to prevent spamming. You can build 4 turrets now on the important points on the map and have to choose wisely.
Spamming turrets in hallways should end by this :)
HBZ is running this now. I increase the radius to 40 to prevent spamming. You can build 4 turrets now on the important points on the map and have to choose wisely.
Spamming turrets in hallways should end by this :)
Maybe 40 is not enough, i will test this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, if you implement a 40 range limit its even harder to win as marine. We have a 66 alien - 33 marine win ratio with 185, with the turret limitation it will make it even more unbalance. I think the turret limitation makes sense due to the spam (>5 turrets?, subjective like someone said), but the original range limitations seemed ok, 40 i would say its too much. It would be interesting to compare the impact of the limitation in the win ratio.
The 66 alien wins is mostly from early game when marines don't have a lot of tech or have messed up their build. Marines rarely, if ever, win early game. The win stats from marines are mostly late game where they have all the tech required to take down a hive crawling with aliens(or in some cases none of the alien team wanted to go com - but that's another story).
When the game drags out and aliens control all tech points apart from marine start - this is where the limitation kicks in. Earlier you would have marines push out from their base by using humongous amounts of turrets and eventually they would make it to a hive, lock it down with turrets after killing it and start turret crawling their way to the next one. With the limitation the marines will lose - and that is fair, because if they let aliens control every tech node out there they have basically given the alien team the win.
With turret limitation you can hold of 1-2 skulks rushing your base, but you won't be able to hold off the entire alien team.
As for later balance issues, the mod itself will most probably be reworked once aliens get siege breakers to cope with the turrets.
The sad thing is many inexperienced comms think that turret spam will keep them alive, but if marines move out together as a team and manage to get phase gates up in the correct places they r unstoppable. Played a pub yesterday where aliens got 2 hives and fades quick. Marines were able to take Heliport and put a phase gate and 4 turrets there and we pushed out as a team with SGs and we managed to put a pg up in Crevice. Also 4 turrets there then we pushed alien start Data and Xroads. It took a while and arcs to break through but it was awesome.
It was 1 of the funnest games i played so far in NS2 because people were working together. Fades r no longer IMBA and 4 marines moving out with SGs were able to hold 2 of them at bay. When s1 died they re spawned and ran right back to Crevice thats the downfall of small maps and also something that should be looked into for better gameplay.
Aliens haven't realized yet that gorges are actually pretty cheap compared to grenade launchers, so if you do suicide runs that take out 1 turret each, you're actually doing okay. If you artificially limit turret building, you're also limiting the skill of alien team building destruction. In a future where classes like Onos take over destruction, it would then be on the aliens to tech up faster than the marines, since I doubt a turret limit would be in the final release, and nobody would have much experience dealing with turret spam strategy until tier 3.
The only reason turret spam, fade power, flamethrower, and any of the other things that people complain about seem overpowered is because games are being played on the lower limit of the player number threshold. If it dips below that limit for any period of time, the gameplay destabilizes and we get things like 999 team res or 20:1 k/d ratios. There are plenty of others things that get imbalanced when only 4 or 5 people on the server know how to play the game.
One thing that should be done on these modded servers is to keep track of win/loss ratios in categories of short, medium, and long games to see if it really does help stabilize team balance, then pit these experienced players in rounds with modless rules and see how it goes.
Turret spam needs to be addressed next patch, its gotten quite stupid. Seriously, i just finished playing a 3 hr game, where aliens had control of the ENTIRE map, and we lost due to the turret spam/nade spam and the inability to effectively counter the nade/sentry spam (really isnt an effective counter, if u try to bile bomb, u get owned by the nade spam.). Not to mention the server lag it creates when comms decide to spam a million turrets. It also didnt help we had 4 aliens teammates (including myself), crash out of the game in the middle of the game which didnt help either. Marines dragged the game on and turret spammed the entire map an won. Its absolutely stupid that marines win this way (not the first time ive seen it either).
Hey all, I have put up an idea about the functionality and usefulness of powernodes as a key gameplay aspect.
It details a new resource (simply called power) What affect structures(buildings) have on power. What affect power nodes have on power.
It is a tower of text, but that's only because I really wanted to go into massive detail on the relatively simple addition to gameplay.
The idea thread is shaping up nicely and you should check it out if you haven't already.
Anyway, I'm posting this here because my idea about power nodes indirectly(or directly depending how you look at it) affects how many sentry turrets you can have, not by putting a physical limit on the turrets, but by pushing the idea that you have to balance expansion of your base (capturing other rooms, defending power nodes) with building lots of buildings. In a nutshell, the new power system will prevent turret spam because if marines are spamming turrets in one or 2 rooms only and just hiding behind the turrets, the aliens can simply chew on power nodes outside of those rooms and shut down the entire marine base(because there ar etoo many turrets eating too much power).
Again, if the marines go: haha, I'll just simply spam turrets everywhere around powernodes, well that won't work either because marines will not have enough power for other useful things such as upgrades, infantry portal teleports, or extractors. I'm still working through the nitty gritty details of power units but so far, it's looking pretty balanced, and in about a week, I'm going to write up a detailed, but well put together summary of the idea.
If you can't be bothered reading that thread, here's what happens(give or take a few key points).
Each power node adds 4 power units per second to the power pool (I'll call it the battery). Each power nodes increases the "battery" cap by 100 units. Each structure uses 1 power unit per second Infantry portal teleports cost another 1 unit per teleport. Research costs 1 power unit per upgrade.(actualyl a new feature idea just added, but ... yeah.)
If power reaches the cap, it doesn't stop going in, the marines merely get temporary bonuses to infantry portal teleports, and some hinderances to power production and consumption of teleports increases.
Each command station increases the battery cap by 200 points. Each command station can also directly power structures in it's room drawing power from the "battery pool"
So this decreases turret spam in late game, especially if marines are being pushed back, by a) causing marines to lose power. or b) forcing them to recycle structures in order to maintain power stability.
Pretty cool eh?
I don't know about you guys, but I think this idea is an elegant solution to an inelegant problem.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited September 2011
I like the general direction of your idea, Ironsoul. However, I think it could be simplified to:
- Power/Energy (new resource) is be generated by all Power Nodes and Command Stations. - Power is stored as a common pool, used by Commanders. - Power is used for: refilling Sentry ammo (instead of P-Res), building construction, (and drop packs?). Without Power, Sentries would run out ammo quickly, and new buildings cannot be dropped.
<!--quoteo(post=1872994:date=Sep 4 2011, 06:20 AM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Sep 4 2011, 06:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872994"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like the general direction of your idea, Ironsoul. However, I think it could be simplified to:
- Power/Energy (new resource) is be generated by all Power Nodes and Command Stations. - Power is stored as a common pool, used by Commanders. - Power is used for: refilling Sentry ammo (instead of P-Res), building construction, (and drop packs?). Without Power, Sentries would run out ammo quickly, and new buildings cannot be dropped.
What do you think?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. Not command stations. Command stations work as a power relay (in the same way a power node or power pack does, but it doesn't add power to the pool, just increases the maximum cap by 200 units. 2.That's already the intention, sorry if I didn't make that clear. As in, that's how simple it will be. 3. While I haven't really discussed that too much, yes, the idea in the long run is to replace structure specific energy requirements, and some other weird setups with this new power unit system.
In a nutshell, what you have said, is essentially what the new system is hoped to do... with one other major change, that I have already mentioned but should make clear.
In the event all power nodes get destroyed, structures connected to command stations will not lose power when the node goes down, they lose power once all the stored power is used up. Check out my main thread for more info.
Ok I joined Fregel 15 min ago. I saw oh it was late game and the Server run at 2-3 Ticks so i decided to change the Server (to HBZ). some minutes later TeK came on the Server and wrote this:
Why not a simple, easy answer? Make bile bomb especially effective against turrets. Forces gorges to take more risk by being more aggressive, retains the behavior and effectiveness of a turret, but gives the aliens a particular methos of getting rid of turretfarms. After all, there are no crags to heal turrets. If it makes turrets too useless when Onos comes around, then it's just a simple tweak to fix the problem, not the alteration or removal of some complicated scheme to provide game balance before many very important features have been implemented.
Since flood made this post here, i ll answer here and abuse this thread.
Frelge Server was full and had a tickrate between 1-3 for over 30min(nearly unplayable) so after the match ended. All other EU servers were empty + it seemd like Trek didnt care to restart the Server (dunno if he can) - i said in global chat, lets all change server to HBZ x2 and repeated HBZ ~5 times to be sure in global chat(very stable EU server)... so we all can play on a server thats not next to crashing. (and most (everybody?) did change server to hbz)
I dont really understand what the problem is, its not like you make money if ppl are on your server - and i guess its also in your interesst that everybody has fun. (at least, if my clanserver is down to 1-5 ticks i would suggest ppl to change myself, if i cant do anything to fix the problem)
Im sorry if you dont see it like me. Dont know if i got banned, guess not.
Since flood made this post here, i ll answer here and abuse this thread.
Frelge Server was full and had a tickrate between 1-3 for over 30min(nearly unplayable) so after the match ended. All other EU servers were empty + it seemd like Trek didnt care to restart the Server (dunno if he can) - i said in global chat, lets all change server to HBZ x2 and repeated HBZ ~5 times to be sure in global chat(very stable EU server)... so we all can play on a server thats not next to crashing. (and most (everybody?) did change server to hbz)
I dont really understand what the problem is, its not like you make money if ppl are on your server - and i guess its also in your interesst that everybody has fun. (at least, if my clanserver is down to 1-5 ticks i would suggest ppl to change myself, if i cant do anything to fix the problem)
Im sorry if you dont see it like me. Dont know if i got banned, guess not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not, you are not banned :/ <strike>There was a round. Endless. We agree? you tell everyone to go on the HBZ's server. Way there are no punches, as you repeat it a 5 or 6 time. For finish then a flood, saying "HBZ" quite a few times, I am not able to get out the logs. But I found this attidude childish.</strike> Of course i don't banned you, I'm not allowed, i can, but i don't. I wanted to show you my most Agasse, and looking for your back on Frelge server to discuss. You just tell me when a round becomes boring, i'll do a "endgame" and move on.. Debauch people from a server because you are not happy with the turn of the round is stupid! Why do that. That's all. You try to make me look like an ######? Ok Personally I have my conscience.<b> on this one</b>, you had a ###### mentality. Next time, come in private fixed the problem. And stop playing the victim.
Edit : If there is a problem tickrate or part-ending, usually I ask everyone if they wish to make an endgame. I'm not the guy who use my server 's access to make justice for myself, proof, you're not banned. or even kicked. I don't like how It happened yesterday, much less how it's known on the forum. I think it's bad, like I was an as*hole.
I didnt post the picture(didnt even know you wrote that until i found it here), but after someone did, and everybody can read it - i needed to claryify the subject(defend myself), because you wrote i was flooding the server - I did not flood anything (flooding is more something like DoS attacks) I repeated something in the chat around max. 10-12times. (spam)
Performance was bad, ppl complained, i suggested a server change at the end of the round, ppl followed.
I didnt know if you had admin rights or not, but you must have seen yourself that hit detection was barely working anymore and everybody was only warping/lagging around because of the 1-3 ticks/s for a very long amount of time - so i assumed you didnt have rights to restart the round/server(you were pretty quiet in global chat), and suggested a server change.
Whatever - next time ill handle it differently, sorry again.
<!--quoteo(post=1874318:date=Sep 12 2011, 12:25 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Sep 12 2011, 12:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1874318"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I didnt post the picture(didnt even know you wrote that until i found it here), but after someone did, and everybody can read it - i needed to claryify the subject(defend myself), because you wrote i was flooding the server - I did not flood anything (flooding is more something like DoS attacks) I repeated something in the chat around max. 10-12times. (spam)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nevermind for this. Right, by flood i mean spam. but, I'm honest, you did not write both 10/12. Instead, Perhaps you had a good intention in calling people to continue the party elsewhere. But from my point of view, this is not the same. We do not make money based on the players, but create a quality game on a server, a quality reputation is quite difficult. And that's why I reacted that way. I apologize as well. And of course you're still welcome to the server.
Comments
HBZ is running this now. I increase the radius to 40 to prevent spamming.
You can build 4 turrets now on the important points on the map and have to choose wisely.
Spamming turrets in hallways should end by this :)
Maybe 40 is not enough, i will test this.
HBZ is running this now. I increase the radius to 40 to prevent spamming.
You can build 4 turrets now on the important points on the map and have to choose wisely.
Spamming turrets in hallways should end by this :)
Maybe 40 is not enough, i will test this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, if you implement a 40 range limit its even harder to win as marine. We have a 66 alien - 33 marine win ratio with 185, with the turret limitation it will make it even more unbalance.
I think the turret limitation makes sense due to the spam (>5 turrets?, subjective like someone said), but the original range limitations seemed ok, 40 i would say its too much. It would be interesting to compare the impact of the limitation in the win ratio.
Marines rarely, if ever, win early game.
The win stats from marines are mostly late game where they have all the tech required to take down a hive crawling with aliens(or in some cases none of the alien team wanted to go com - but that's another story).
When the game drags out and aliens control all tech points apart from marine start - this is where the limitation kicks in.
Earlier you would have marines push out from their base by using humongous amounts of turrets and eventually they would make it to a hive, lock it down with turrets after killing it and start turret crawling their way to the next one.
With the limitation the marines will lose - and that is fair, because if they let aliens control every tech node out there they have basically given the alien team the win.
With turret limitation you can hold of 1-2 skulks rushing your base, but you won't be able to hold off the entire alien team.
As for later balance issues, the mod itself will most probably be reworked once aliens get siege breakers to cope with the turrets.
It was 1 of the funnest games i played so far in NS2 because people were working together. Fades r no longer IMBA and 4 marines moving out with SGs were able to hold 2 of them at bay. When s1 died they re spawned and ran right back to Crevice thats the downfall of small maps and also something that should be looked into for better gameplay.
The only reason turret spam, fade power, flamethrower, and any of the other things that people complain about seem overpowered is because games are being played on the lower limit of the player number threshold. If it dips below that limit for any period of time, the gameplay destabilizes and we get things like 999 team res or 20:1 k/d ratios. There are plenty of others things that get imbalanced when only 4 or 5 people on the server know how to play the game.
One thing that should be done on these modded servers is to keep track of win/loss ratios in categories of short, medium, and long games to see if it really does help stabilize team balance, then pit these experienced players in rounds with modless rules and see how it goes.
It details a new resource (simply called power)
What affect structures(buildings) have on power.
What affect power nodes have on power.
It is a tower of text, but that's only because I really wanted to go into massive detail on the relatively simple addition to gameplay.
The idea thread is shaping up nicely and you should check it out if you haven't already.
Anyway, I'm posting this here because my idea about power nodes indirectly(or directly depending how you look at it) affects how many sentry turrets you can have, not by putting a physical limit on the turrets, but by pushing the idea that you have to balance expansion of your base (capturing other rooms, defending power nodes) with building lots of buildings. In a nutshell, the new power system will prevent turret spam because if marines are spamming turrets in one or 2 rooms only and just hiding behind the turrets, the aliens can simply chew on power nodes outside of those rooms and shut down the entire marine base(because there ar etoo many turrets eating too much power).
Again, if the marines go: haha, I'll just simply spam turrets everywhere around powernodes, well that won't work either because marines will not have enough power for other useful things such as upgrades, infantry portal teleports, or extractors. I'm still working through the nitty gritty details of power units but so far, it's looking pretty balanced, and in about a week, I'm going to write up a detailed, but well put together summary of the idea.
If you can't be bothered reading that thread, here's what happens(give or take a few key points).
Each power node adds 4 power units per second to the power pool (I'll call it the battery).
Each power nodes increases the "battery" cap by 100 units.
Each structure uses 1 power unit per second
Infantry portal teleports cost another 1 unit per teleport.
Research costs 1 power unit per upgrade.(actualyl a new feature idea just added, but ... yeah.)
If power reaches the cap, it doesn't stop going in, the marines merely get temporary bonuses to infantry portal teleports, and some hinderances to power production and consumption of teleports increases.
Each command station increases the battery cap by 200 points.
Each command station can also directly power structures in it's room drawing power from the "battery pool"
So this decreases turret spam in late game, especially if marines are being pushed back, by a) causing marines to lose power. or b) forcing them to recycle structures in order to maintain power stability.
Pretty cool eh?
I don't know about you guys, but I think this idea is an elegant solution to an inelegant problem.
- Power/Energy (new resource) is be generated by all Power Nodes and Command Stations.
- Power is stored as a common pool, used by Commanders.
- Power is used for: refilling Sentry ammo (instead of P-Res), building construction, (and drop packs?). Without Power, Sentries would run out ammo quickly, and new buildings cannot be dropped.
What do you think?
- Power/Energy (new resource) is be generated by all Power Nodes and Command Stations.
- Power is stored as a common pool, used by Commanders.
- Power is used for: refilling Sentry ammo (instead of P-Res), building construction, (and drop packs?). Without Power, Sentries would run out ammo quickly, and new buildings cannot be dropped.
What do you think?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. Not command stations. Command stations work as a power relay (in the same way a power node or power pack does, but it doesn't add power to the pool, just increases the maximum cap by 200 units.
2.That's already the intention, sorry if I didn't make that clear. As in, that's how simple it will be.
3. While I haven't really discussed that too much, yes, the idea in the long run is to replace structure specific energy requirements, and some other weird setups with this new power unit system.
In a nutshell, what you have said, is essentially what the new system is hoped to do... with one other major change, that I have already mentioned but should make clear.
In the event all power nodes get destroyed, structures connected to command stations will not lose power when the node goes down, they lose power once all the stored power is used up. Check out my main thread for more info.
<img src="https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-lb1fd69pT5Y/Tm06BQearlI/AAAAAAAAALg/a-62B0eGifI/s1280/2011-09-12_00001.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Bann for changin Server?? Really... lol
Since flood made this post here, i ll answer here and abuse this thread.
Frelge Server was full and had a tickrate between 1-3 for over 30min(nearly unplayable) so after the match ended. All other EU servers were empty + it seemd like Trek didnt care to restart the Server (dunno if he can) - i said in global chat, lets all change server to HBZ x2 and repeated HBZ ~5 times to be sure in global chat(very stable EU server)... so we all can play on a server thats not next to crashing. (and most (everybody?) did change server to hbz)
I dont really understand what the problem is, its not like you make money if ppl are on your server - and i guess its also in your interesst that everybody has fun. (at least, if my clanserver is down to 1-5 ticks i would suggest ppl to change myself, if i cant do anything to fix the problem)
Im sorry if you dont see it like me.
Dont know if i got banned, guess not.
I'll ask Tek to know what's happen this day.
But i'm not sure Tek will ban someone because he changed to another server. I think he was talking about turret spam/flood.
Since flood made this post here, i ll answer here and abuse this thread.
Frelge Server was full and had a tickrate between 1-3 for over 30min(nearly unplayable) so after the match ended. All other EU servers were empty + it seemd like Trek didnt care to restart the Server (dunno if he can) - i said in global chat, lets all change server to HBZ x2 and repeated HBZ ~5 times to be sure in global chat(very stable EU server)... so we all can play on a server thats not next to crashing. (and most (everybody?) did change server to hbz)
I dont really understand what the problem is, its not like you make money if ppl are on your server - and i guess its also in your interesst that everybody has fun. (at least, if my clanserver is down to 1-5 ticks i would suggest ppl to change myself, if i cant do anything to fix the problem)
Im sorry if you dont see it like me.
Dont know if i got banned, guess not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not, you are not banned :/
<strike>There was a round. Endless. We agree? you tell everyone to go on the HBZ's server. Way there are no punches, as you repeat it a 5 or 6 time. For finish then a flood, saying "HBZ" quite a few times, I am not able to get out the logs. But I found this attidude childish.</strike>
Of course i don't banned you, I'm not allowed, i can, but i don't. I wanted to show you my most Agasse, and looking for your back on Frelge server to discuss.
You just tell me when a round becomes boring, i'll do a "endgame" and move on.. Debauch people from a server because you are not happy with the turn of the round is stupid! Why do that. That's all.
You try to make me look like an ######? Ok
Personally I have my conscience.<b> on this one</b>, you had a ###### mentality.
Next time, come in private fixed the problem. And stop playing the victim.
Edit : If there is a problem tickrate or part-ending, usually I ask everyone if they wish to make an endgame. I'm not the guy who use my server 's access to make justice for myself, proof, you're not banned. or even kicked. I don't like how It happened yesterday, much less how it's known on the forum. I think it's bad, like I was an as*hole.
Performance was bad, ppl complained, i suggested a server change at the end of the round, ppl followed.
I didnt know if you had admin rights or not, but you must have seen yourself that hit detection was barely working anymore and everybody was only warping/lagging around because of the 1-3 ticks/s for a very long amount of time - so i assumed you didnt have rights to restart the round/server(you were pretty quiet in global chat), and suggested a server change.
Whatever - next time ill handle it differently, sorry again.
Nevermind for this.
Right, by flood i mean spam. but, I'm honest, you did not write both 10/12. Instead,
Perhaps you had a good intention in calling people to continue the party elsewhere. But from my point of view, this is not the same. We do not make money based on the players, but create a quality game on a server, a quality reputation is quite difficult. And that's why I reacted that way. I apologize as well.
And of course you're still welcome to the server.
Should change miy 15y old nick... Sorry sorry again.