The Gorge - No longer needed
Hybridclaw
Join Date: 2003-11-03 Member: 22271Members
Join Date: 2003-11-03 Member: 22271Members
Do we still need the Gorge?
Some say that the Gorge has a supporting role as a medic and others say it is needs to spawn Hydras and the rest cling to the Gorge due to nostalgia. However, its attacks and abilities may be better off if given to other alien classes. With a quick rework and the Gorge becomes obsolete.
Hydras:
The Gorge was once the building class of the alien team. Now almost all of the Gorge’s buildings have been given to the alien commander. Gorges are often criticized for dropping too many Hydras, however, it is the only structure he can drop. Taking this into account and the relatively harmlessness of Whips, Hydras are better off if given to the commanders.
Cysts:
The commander can already drop them.
Heal-spray:
Mainly used for supporting the team. It is the Lerk’s job to support the team so heal-spray would be better suited for it. Many people evolve into Gorges just so they can heal the team (myself included). This is boring, although once it was easy to support aliens that were already in combat, in the recent build it has become harder to do so as recent builds have reduce self-healing with heal spray. All they do now is hide in the back and heal everything that passes by. It would be more fun if the Lerk was the one that could heal-spray given the fact that it does not have to hide.
Bile-bomb:
It is an expensive attack that requires research from a whip. It is not research until late in the game due in part to both the expense and the relatively few numbers of Gorges. By the time bile-bomb is researched, Fades are on the field. Fades are always attacking thus giving bile-bomb to the Fade causes bile-bomb to be used in combat more. And way back in the early days of NS1 Fades were the ones with bile-bomb.
Although I doubt that the Gorge will ever be removed, hypothetically with a little tweaking the Gorge can be completely removed from the game and, in terms of balance, it will not be missed.
Thus, the Gorge needs to be improved.
Some say that the Gorge has a supporting role as a medic and others say it is needs to spawn Hydras and the rest cling to the Gorge due to nostalgia. However, its attacks and abilities may be better off if given to other alien classes. With a quick rework and the Gorge becomes obsolete.
Hydras:
The Gorge was once the building class of the alien team. Now almost all of the Gorge’s buildings have been given to the alien commander. Gorges are often criticized for dropping too many Hydras, however, it is the only structure he can drop. Taking this into account and the relatively harmlessness of Whips, Hydras are better off if given to the commanders.
Cysts:
The commander can already drop them.
Heal-spray:
Mainly used for supporting the team. It is the Lerk’s job to support the team so heal-spray would be better suited for it. Many people evolve into Gorges just so they can heal the team (myself included). This is boring, although once it was easy to support aliens that were already in combat, in the recent build it has become harder to do so as recent builds have reduce self-healing with heal spray. All they do now is hide in the back and heal everything that passes by. It would be more fun if the Lerk was the one that could heal-spray given the fact that it does not have to hide.
Bile-bomb:
It is an expensive attack that requires research from a whip. It is not research until late in the game due in part to both the expense and the relatively few numbers of Gorges. By the time bile-bomb is researched, Fades are on the field. Fades are always attacking thus giving bile-bomb to the Fade causes bile-bomb to be used in combat more. And way back in the early days of NS1 Fades were the ones with bile-bomb.
Although I doubt that the Gorge will ever be removed, hypothetically with a little tweaking the Gorge can be completely removed from the game and, in terms of balance, it will not be missed.
Thus, the Gorge needs to be improved.
Comments
If the Lerk could heal-spray damaged structures and the commander could drop cheaper cysts, that "boring gameplay element†would be removed.
The word "boring" has no place in an analysis or suggestion as it is a personal opinion...
I play gorge tons, because there's tons of fun in playing a fat slow alien.
I've commanded games where gorges let me expand and fortify at incredible rates. I've helped make infestation trails that we fortified with structures and hydras, slowly pushing to marine start, very formidable, and it's alien map control to the extreme. But you need to have one or two gorges at the head of any given push. It's like lava.
Precisely. That's why I'm sure the game that I'm making about watching paint dry is going to be a <b>huge</b> sucess :P
Its also the only godahm counter aliens have to stupid sentry farms even if its a weak counter. What other class would you believably give bilebomb to besides lerks doing poopoos?
What not 9001, or are you afraid of a certain screamy guy with a scouter that is badly designed and blows up at random times!
9001 hydras make my game lag like crazy; best to just keep it at 9000 until the engine is optimized.
The bile bomb for fade or acid rockets of ns1 would be better against marine bases as gorges tend to lack the energy and health to survive the assault, or speed to even get in and out of there in time.
But I'd never give the lerk a healspray. His support role was defined by umbra and primal rage which were taken away from him. And currently he can outgun marines pretty easily.
Giving hydras to gorges allows for very creative placement of them, like in rafters or on the sides of crates. A alien commander could only drop them on the ground.
Heal spray doesn't really fit the lurks. They are about battlefield control -- able to easily control where marines go (with spores) and snipe. If they had heal spray, it would make them less effective in this role. But it's perfect for a support class -- the gorge -- who can heal units, buildings, and help back up the troops with the hydras.
True, the commander <i>could</i> do all the things that the gorge does, but it'd be like trying to perform laparoscopic surgery with a pair of goley gloves on. The gorge enables much more flexible deployment of hydras and cysts, and provides a verstile and adaptable compliment to the other lifeforms.
Plus it is silly. And makes me giggle.
Perhaps it takes a new player a little longer to work out his nuances than say, 'go bite humans till they die,' but that's not necessarily a bad thing.
Perhaps there are more abilities coming for the Gorgey that we don't yet know about, that could alleviate your concerns about his place in the game?
Like buff upgrades, within a certain range the skulk can detect marines, more armour, silent walking, etc I dunno just throwing it out there :)
Pros:
The extend the cyst system.
They aid in combat, hidden around corners to heal fades.
They can drop some static defense.
cons:
Static defense is easily destroyed (Hydra's) by the noob toobers
Heal spray requires too much energy, nor strong enough.
They currently lack much needed defensive/offensive skills. Spit is worthless and bile is meh.
Personal Opinion:
Spit needs to hit harder
Bile needs to do damage to marine armor
Healspray needs to heal for more with a reduction in energy cost.
They need a defensive static to drop to mix with the offensive Hydra's ( It may help )
Gorges hydra's needs a buff against the noob toobers OR gorges need a tougher skin so they can take the hits while they heal the hydra's or anything else for that matter.
Since umbra has been removed from lerks, possibly give umbra to gorges as a second or third hive ability. It will help them while on defense with the easily killable hydra's and their weak healing spray.
Too keep a long story short. Gorges ARE needed, but they are also in dire need of some sort of buff.
Pros:
The extend the cyst system.
They aid in combat, hidden around corners to heal fades.
They can drop some static defense.
cons:
Static defense is easily destroyed (Hydra's) by the noob toobers
Heal spray requires too much energy, nor strong enough.
They currently lack much needed defensive/offensive skills. Spit is worthless and bile is meh.
Personal Opinion:
Spit needs to hit harder
Bile needs to do damage to marine armor
Healspray needs to heal for more with a reduction in energy cost.
They need a defensive static to drop to mix with the offensive Hydra's ( It may help )
Gorges static defense needs a buff against the noob toobers OR gorges need a tougher skin so they can take the hits while they heal the hydra's or anything else for that matter.
Since umbra has been removed from lerks, possibly give umbra to gorges as a second or third hive ability. It will help them while on defense with the easily killable hydra's and their weak healing spray.
Too keep a long story short. Gorges ARE needed, but they are also in dire need of some sort of buff.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Amen! Nah seriously this is what it's about.
and how does any of that sound balanced?!
the builder / healer class should be one of the weakest. especially if its available instantly.
i cant tell you how many frustrating times i've had in past builds chasing down a sliding gorge spraying itself incessantly while i dump two magazines into him with no kill.
they become friggin invincible with that much self healing. i'm not even going to address your desire for hydra spam.. -_-
<!--quoteo(post=1882173:date=Oct 26 2011, 11:00 AM:name=SloppyKisses)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SloppyKisses @ Oct 26 2011, 11:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1882173"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1.Static defense is easily destroyed (Hydra's) by the noob toobers
2.Heal spray requires too much energy, nor strong enough.
3.Gorges hydra's needs a buff against the noob toobers OR gorges need a tougher skin so they can take the hits while they heal the hydra's or anything else for that matter.
4.Since umbra has been removed from lerks, possibly give umbra to gorges as a second or third hive ability. It will help them while on defense with the easily killable hydra's and their weak healing spray.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. it should be - that's marine's static defense clearing means. the arc isnt worth the effort / risk of res most the time compared to 8 rines with tubes.
2. i agree <u><b>as long as self healing doesnt get changed!</b></u>
3. i agree, where is that "crouch for tank mode" we're supposed to have?
4. i agree, but if you address 2 and 3 this won't be needed.
the builder / healer class should be one of the weakest. especially if its available instantly.
i cant tell you how many frustrating times i've had in past builds chasing down a sliding gorge spraying itself incessantly while i dump two magazines into him with no kill.
they become friggin invincible with that much self healing. i'm not even going to address your desire for hydra spam.. -_-<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Naming the gorge builder/healer class is a bit of a misnomer - he's a support class which also doesn't necessarily mean he has to arbitrarily be 'the weakest'. Does this mean he must have less hp than the skulk?
I would ask you what you define as 'the weakest' and we could discuss endlessly about classes in games but i felt i really needed to make one thing very clear about the math.
1) Gorge lvl 3 armour 150 hp 150 armour = <b>450</b> total.
2) Rifle fire delay is 0.05 seconds, doing <b>500</b> dmg in 2.7 seconds. Healspray delay is 0.8 seconds and it currently self heals around 7hp (less than the damage of one bullet).
3) So, even given the worst case scenario where gorge has lvl 3 armour and marine has lvl 0 weapons, the marine is capable of easily killing the gorge in less than one magazine not to mention he has a pistol to quickly put out 250 dmg if the gorge still isnt dead. It takes around more than a full minute for a gorge to heal itself back up to full from very low health and at a very high energy cost might i add.
I think the clear point is how fast the rifle can unload damage compared to how fast healspray works. Even back when healspray was 100% selfheal, if you shot 2 clips and the gorge still wasnt dead, then the problem really was aim or you got outplayed by a gorge that used bellyslide and LOS well.
Allow gorges to place structures further out than the end of their nose. "Spitting" hydras or cysts up to ceilings, into vents, or into the back of marine "controlled" areas could make for some interesting and weird tactics, and they'd be ones that commanders can't pull off (as they're limited in placement choices by the top-down interface).
Gorges need something more than they've got. It's not a case of "they're too weak" more just a case of "they don't have a lot of options." They have a token early offensive ability, somewhat effective healing (although most fades get bored waiting around for the time it takes to fully heal them) and a late-game offensive ability of dubious effectiveness (bilebomb). They can bellyslide (woo?) and they can plant cysts and weak turrets. That's it. I don't think they need to be tuned up for direct combat necessarily, but some more tactical flexibility would be helpful.
huh,web?
Yeah the gorge had web in the later stages on NS1, spits it everywhere and gets the marines stuck with some slow walking action.