<!--quoteo(post=1881629:date=Oct 24 2011, 11:20 AM:name=Kalabalana)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kalabalana @ Oct 24 2011, 11:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1881629"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, I am not sure how the skulk wall walk system works, but however it does, if they increased the area of stickiness to account for more drastic changes in geometry relative to the immediate proximity of the surface the skulk is currently on, I believe that would fix a lost of the issues.
Also, holding shift should prevent a skulk from falling off any surface (unless you also use ctrl for a silent detachment).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Instead of just increasing stickiness of the wall, they could code it such that the pull of gravity while on the wall would pull the Skulk to the wall. That way a bump in the geometry would not make the player fall of.
That_Annoying_KidSire of TitlesJoin Date: 2003-03-01Member: 14175Members, Constellation
in ns you stick unless you go off the wall or hit crouch
and soylent you can get around some of those invisible lips, it's just extremely fickle, and uber hard to do when you actually need to do it right the first time (aah I'm getting shot at)
my favorite is going around the outside of 90° corners that go from horizontal to vertical
<!--quoteo(post=1881688:date=Oct 24 2011, 02:35 PM:name=That_Annoying_Kid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (That_Annoying_Kid @ Oct 24 2011, 02:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1881688"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and soylent you can get around some of those invisible lips, it's just extremely fickle, and uber hard to do when you actually need to do it right the first time (aah I'm getting shot at)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Invisible lips on slopes I find to mostly be a problem when using leap or when bunnyhopping up shorter or shallower slopes.
If you leap at a steep slope you will travel upwards faster than 2 units per frame. 2 units per frame is a 'magic' number in HL SDK. When you travel upwards faster than 2 units per second you are classified as being in the air and you are not "snapped" down to the floor. You slide up the slope with no friction and go flying off the top end ... unless the slope was badly constructed by the mapper and there's a lip, then you stop abruptly and go 2 meters straight up into the air while marines use you for target practice.
seriously, getting tired of this kind of threads. Everytime there is one thing that requires a LITTLE bit of skill, then comes teh whine. I have no problem moving around using wallwalking, even roofwalking and this helps me a great deal in confusing 1, 2 even 3 enemies at once. If people actually practice things instead of complaining.... If you need to get a quick overlook of your surroundings, alternate using strafe key and backwards key. Isn't that difficult.
I forgot to say, easier to use floor, easier to kill. Skill required for wallwalk, skill required for kill. Also, if any of you played games back in the day, like the 80's, you'd know what skill and difficulty meant.
IMO you shouldn't detach from the wall unless you jump or press ctrl. It's almost impossible to get into the fan above the ventilation RT with the current wallwalking.
<!--quoteo(post=1881985:date=Oct 25 2011, 08:10 PM:name=Sansa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sansa @ Oct 25 2011, 08:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1881985"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I forgot to say, easier to use floor, easier to kill. Skill required for wallwalk, skill required for kill. Also, if any of you played games back in the day, like the 80's, you'd know what skill and difficulty meant.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's no reason for it to be difficult, the point of this game is much deeper than tactile skill and ability, it's focused on strategy and quick thinking, and is supposed to be accessible to many types of players. This is different than a game like Donkey Kong or Pong, the skill comes in at a different plane. Not every game has to be about mastering difficult game control.
You don't help your case by ignoring all the valid points on this thread, either. A good argument comes in either conceding or refuting the other side of the argument! If you want to contribute to the thread put up some of your ideas in a more amicable way. Don't call people whiners just because you've gotten good at it! I bet there are other people here that are just as good at it as you are, even better, and they feel the same way I do.
I agree with HybridClaw, though, that the wall stickiness might even be a bit too high, and maybe there should be a cleaner way to stick to them that doesn't feel so mollasses-ey. I think UKW has maybe made the walls really sticky to compensate for the bumpy geometry.
<!--quoteo(post=1882037:date=Oct 26 2011, 12:57 AM:name=sumguy720)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sumguy720 @ Oct 26 2011, 12:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1882037"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's no reason for it to be difficult, the point of this game is much deeper than tactile skill and ability, it's focused on strategy and quick thinking, and is supposed to be accessible to many types of players. This is different than a game like Donkey Kong or Pong, the skill comes in at a different plane. Not every game has to be about mastering difficult game control.
You don't help your case by ignoring all the valid points on this thread, either. A good argument comes in either conceding or refuting the other side of the argument! If you want to contribute to the thread put up some of your ideas in a more amicable way. Don't call people whiners just because you've gotten good at it! I bet there are other people here that are just as good at it as you are, even better, and they feel the same way I do.
I agree with HybridClaw, though, that the wall stickiness might even be a bit too high, and maybe there should be a cleaner way to stick to them that doesn't feel so mollasses-ey. I think UKW has maybe made the walls really sticky to compensate for the bumpy geometry.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i apologize, was a bit tired ( long evening/night at work :) My point to your OP is that yes it is unpolished, but with skill, trying to follow the more dynamic environment in NS2 (as opposed to NS1) is actually got the feel like being an actual skulk, i would say that the current system with polishing of course, is quite sufficient. The stickiness is a bit of an issue though...
When a Skulk uses the walls properly, it is incredibly difficult to take down. The current animations for the Skulk do play a factor in how the bullets are hitting it, but it is still a tactic that should be used by any skilled NS2 player.
<!--quoteo(post=1882153:date=Oct 26 2011, 10:46 AM:name=konata)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (konata @ Oct 26 2011, 10:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1882153"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It seems a lot of "bobbly" terrain is 2-4 units deep. Why not expel the skulk 2-4 units off of a wall then we can get smooth walking?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not a bad idea, but I think that would be a mapmaker's task, not a coder's. A flat clipbrush slightly under current map walls would make ceiling and wall walking much easier, if a bit more boring.
Another benefit to having at least one guy on the ceiling when you're doing a multi-unit attack is marine inaccuracy. If you're all coming down the hallway in a rush, and the marine misses the skulk in front (or his shotgun blast peppers the area) those stray rounds can hit another alien in the group. If you're on the ceiling, you're so far above the shooter's point of aim you're unlikely to get hit.
Wall walking helped NS1 only because of the jump from the wall, it made you go further. Now you run on the wall and are glued, it's not hard to get owned easy.
<!--quoteo(post=1882198:date=Oct 26 2011, 04:11 PM:name=konata)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (konata @ Oct 26 2011, 04:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1882198"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Easier and less time consuming from a coders view.
Code that on animation change for wall/ceiling bumps it up a few units
is much easier than
Clipping 60% of your map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It may be true a change to code could solve this issue easier, however it doesn't solve it better. It's likely this change won't fix all geometry issues, which isn't -really- solving the problem. It's not unreasonable to add clipping. I could decompile any professional-level source or even gold-source map and show you hundreds of clips. Conversely I could show you dozens of places in Summit where clipping should be used, and makes the game feel unintuitive and difficult to maneuver. Proper clipping creates better gameplay, and makes a game feel more polished.
This post may have been addressed already but.... The skulk's view needs to be moved more towards the head of the model. When I am ambushing I have been killed many times by marines I cannot see. They all tell me that they could see my head. Often occurs when ambushing from a ceiling position.
I really like Hybridclaw's idea about gravity, I believe it would be an easy coding change, and it would solve that you fall off when you bump off small things. <!--quoteo(post=1881687:date=Oct 24 2011, 09:28 PM:name=Hybridclaw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hybridclaw @ Oct 24 2011, 09:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1881687"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Instead of just increasing stickiness of the wall, they could code it such that the pull of gravity while on the wall would pull the Skulk to the wall. That way a bump in the geometry would not make the player fall of.
Jumping or leap can then be used to detach.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ctrl could also be used to detach :)
Another thing I miss is the intuitive movement of AvP2. I understand that you don't want the view rotating, and that's not the point here: When I walk on the floor and sidestep to a wall, the model should behave as if the view turned, and continue to sidestep up the wall. Although, now that I think of it, it does get confusing on going from/to the ceiling...
On to vision turning; I do think it really adds to the maneuverability, but it does take some getting used to before you can use it quickly. I think what can make it nauseating isn't actually the rotation of the view when you change from ceiling to wall/floor, but when you walk over small bumps (like pipes) and your view follow their tangent perfectly. If your view just rotates around the axis wich you look, it isn't nauseating. Much like your view doesn't fly away when you walk on bumps in the floor, so it shouldn't on the ceiling eighter :)
It would be an easy way to introduce skilled movement too.
I haven't played NS2 for a while but this has bugged me though.
What I would prefer is a rotating screen because it would make wall walking much more realistic (In my view). Obviously allow people to turn this off.
Also, I think it should propel you further and leaping off a wall will allow you to go further/faster when you are on a wall. This would promote people to jump onto and off of walls when they are trying to chase someone/get to someone and it would make it less predictable about where you are going to go.
I still can't quite believe that not even the option to use an AvP2-style wallwalk was implemented. I can't imagine the current system ever beating that in usability. Every surface is a floor for you, what else could you ask for?
<!--quoteo(post=1884814:date=Nov 13 2011, 10:09 AM:name=Khaze)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khaze @ Nov 13 2011, 10:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1884814"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I still can't quite believe that not even the option to use an AvP2-style wallwalk was implemented. I can't imagine the current system ever beating that in usability. Every surface is a floor for you, what else could you ask for?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As far as I know, they did look into it for awhile. However usefull it is, it can also be nauseating and I believe that is the reason why they ultimately decided to not go with it.
I do believe it can be made alot more smooth then in AvP2, were I believe the most confusing part was when you walked over tiny ledges and props on the wall and your screen went crazy. This could be reduced by just having the screen rotate around the center of the screen, and not "flip". That way you would also keep your aim at the same point even when you change orientation by sidestepping to a new face. Obviously, if you walk straight into a wall you'd have to re-aim... No need to make us super lazy.
[edit] I realise that I said pretty much the same thing in a few posts up. Oh well =) [/edit]
aeroripperJoin Date: 2005-02-25Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
I think their implementation is best, and the small view tilt when walking on walls is sufficient. They proto-typed the AvP style camera way back in NS1 development and decided against it then as well.
I played a bit with the skulk code and it's not so easy to get a stable view, the ceiling geometry is really complicated, and you get a bit sick working on that with all the bugs. But it shouldn't be so hard to do at the end, so if you want AvP2-style wallwalk Khaze, you can implement it yourself (or maybe someone else will do a mod). The funny thing is how the map looks different from the ceiling, it's really hard to recognize anything.
I think one of the issues compounding wall walk (especially ceiling walk) is that your vertical FOV is considerably reduced from NS1 (by as much as 40% I would estimate) due to the larger mouth model or by running in 16:10 or 16:9 aspect. Since you need to be looking close to level to wall walk effectively this really screws up your awareness.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1884844:date=Nov 13 2011, 10:47 AM:name=Destroid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Destroid @ Nov 13 2011, 10:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1884844"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think one of the issues compounding wall walk (especially ceiling walk) is that your vertical FOV is considerably reduced from NS1 (by as much as 40% I would estimate) due to the larger mouth model or by running in 16:10 or 16:9 aspect. Since you need to be looking close to level to wall walk effectively this really screws up your awareness.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
welcome to the forums..
but this sounds like crap to me. %40 loss in fov?! no... as for running in 16:9, who doesn't sell widescreen monitors these days? its a standard and should be accepted, it does not effect viewing area vertically - thats still up to the FOV. (horizontal or vertical scaled)
i do agree with you about having to look level to stay on a wall... its the silliest design ever. it actually <b>LIMITS </b>you from being an ambushing skulk sometimes, as you might be in a corner wanting to position yourself correctly, going down slightly, and as you do you drop pre emptively.
<!--quoteo(post=1882585:date=Oct 29 2011, 03:00 AM:name=Mezro)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mezro @ Oct 29 2011, 03:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1882585"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It may be true a change to code could solve this issue easier, however it doesn't solve it better. It's likely this change won't fix all geometry issues, which isn't -really- solving the problem. It's not unreasonable to add clipping. I could decompile any professional-level source or even gold-source map and show you hundreds of clips. Conversely I could show you dozens of places in Summit where clipping should be used, and makes the game feel unintuitive and difficult to maneuver. Proper clipping creates better gameplay, and makes a game feel more polished.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the code change doesn't fix it you could add clipping to solve the occasional problem area.
It is far more sensible to get a good procedural system working which handles most cases, and have mappers fix the rest, than to tell your mappers to do it all, once the procedural solution is written it continues to save work the longer it is in use, but the longer you go without it the more work you have to do fiixing up levels.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
The AVP style of wallwalking is alot more confusing than the NS style. And it is alot harder to use then the NS wallwalking. It would be a mistake to change that. It's not hard to wallwalk in NS or NS2, if you got trouble with it, it's simply a lack of skill. Yes, the geometry in some of the NS2 levels can make it a bit harder, because your wallwalking is dependent on your view angle. But it is possible to aquire the skill nessesary to avoid falling, and it is not too hard. And it is definitly better than the AVP style, which sometimes made you go in circles in vents, and make you totally disorientated. No need for change here, maybe just a need for practice?
<!--quoteo(post=1884851:date=Nov 13 2011, 07:59 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Nov 13 2011, 07:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1884851"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->welcome to the forums..
but this sounds like crap to me. %40 loss in fov?! no... as for running in 16:9, who doesn't sell widescreen monitors these days? its a standard and should be accepted, it does not effect viewing area vertically - thats still up to the FOV. (horizontal or vertical scaled)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In NS2 your FOV changes if you are using a widescreen resolution - you actually see less vertically instead of a a little extra horizontally. Personally I hope they change this as I need to run it at 4:3 on my 16:10 monitor as the FOV I get on my native resolution makes me feel sick.
Comments
Also, holding shift should prevent a skulk from falling off any surface (unless you also use ctrl for a silent detachment).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Instead of just increasing stickiness of the wall, they could code it such that the pull of gravity while on the wall would pull the Skulk to the wall. That way a bump in the geometry would not make the player fall of.
Jumping or leap can then be used to detach.
and soylent you can get around some of those invisible lips, it's just extremely fickle, and uber hard to do when you actually need to do it right the first time (aah I'm getting shot at)
my favorite is going around the outside of 90° corners that go from horizontal to vertical
Invisible lips on slopes I find to mostly be a problem when using leap or when bunnyhopping up shorter or shallower slopes.
If you leap at a steep slope you will travel upwards faster than 2 units per frame. 2 units per frame is a 'magic' number in HL SDK. When you travel upwards faster than 2 units per second you are classified as being in the air and you are not "snapped" down to the floor. You slide up the slope with no friction and go flying off the top end ... unless the slope was badly constructed by the mapper and there's a lip, then you stop abruptly and go 2 meters straight up into the air while marines use you for target practice.
Also, if any of you played games back in the day, like the 80's, you'd know what skill and difficulty meant.
Also, if any of you played games back in the day, like the 80's, you'd know what skill and difficulty meant.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's no reason for it to be difficult, the point of this game is much deeper than tactile skill and ability, it's focused on strategy and quick thinking, and is supposed to be accessible to many types of players. This is different than a game like Donkey Kong or Pong, the skill comes in at a different plane. Not every game has to be about mastering difficult game control.
You don't help your case by ignoring all the valid points on this thread, either. A good argument comes in either conceding or refuting the other side of the argument! If you want to contribute to the thread put up some of your ideas in a more amicable way. Don't call people whiners just because you've gotten good at it! I bet there are other people here that are just as good at it as you are, even better, and they feel the same way I do.
I agree with HybridClaw, though, that the wall stickiness might even be a bit too high, and maybe there should be a cleaner way to stick to them that doesn't feel so mollasses-ey. I think UKW has maybe made the walls really sticky to compensate for the bumpy geometry.
You don't help your case by ignoring all the valid points on this thread, either. A good argument comes in either conceding or refuting the other side of the argument! If you want to contribute to the thread put up some of your ideas in a more amicable way. Don't call people whiners just because you've gotten good at it! I bet there are other people here that are just as good at it as you are, even better, and they feel the same way I do.
I agree with HybridClaw, though, that the wall stickiness might even be a bit too high, and maybe there should be a cleaner way to stick to them that doesn't feel so mollasses-ey. I think UKW has maybe made the walls really sticky to compensate for the bumpy geometry.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i apologize, was a bit tired ( long evening/night at work :) My point to your OP is that yes it is unpolished, but with skill, trying to follow the more dynamic environment in NS2 (as opposed to NS1) is actually got the feel like being an actual skulk, i would say that the current system with polishing of course, is quite sufficient.
The stickiness is a bit of an issue though...
Not a bad idea, but I think that would be a mapmaker's task, not a coder's. A flat clipbrush slightly under current map walls would make ceiling and wall walking much easier, if a bit more boring.
Code that on animation change for wall/ceiling bumps it up a few units
is much easier than
Clipping 60% of your map.
Code that on animation change for wall/ceiling bumps it up a few units
is much easier than
Clipping 60% of your map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It may be true a change to code could solve this issue easier, however it doesn't solve it better. It's likely this change won't fix all geometry issues, which isn't -really- solving the problem. It's not unreasonable to add clipping. I could decompile any professional-level source or even gold-source map and show you hundreds of clips. Conversely I could show you dozens of places in Summit where clipping should be used, and makes the game feel unintuitive and difficult to maneuver. Proper clipping creates better gameplay, and makes a game feel more polished.
<!--quoteo(post=1881687:date=Oct 24 2011, 09:28 PM:name=Hybridclaw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hybridclaw @ Oct 24 2011, 09:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1881687"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Instead of just increasing stickiness of the wall, they could code it such that the pull of gravity while on the wall would pull the Skulk to the wall. That way a bump in the geometry would not make the player fall of.
Jumping or leap can then be used to detach.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ctrl could also be used to detach :)
Another thing I miss is the intuitive movement of AvP2. I understand that you don't want the view rotating, and that's not the point here: When I walk on the floor and sidestep to a wall, the model should behave as if the view turned, and continue to sidestep up the wall. Although, now that I think of it, it does get confusing on going from/to the ceiling...
On to vision turning; I do think it really adds to the maneuverability, but it does take some getting used to before you can use it quickly. I think what can make it nauseating isn't actually the rotation of the view when you change from ceiling to wall/floor, but when you walk over small bumps (like pipes) and your view follow their tangent perfectly. If your view just rotates around the axis wich you look, it isn't nauseating. Much like your view doesn't fly away when you walk on bumps in the floor, so it shouldn't on the ceiling eighter :)
It would be an easy way to introduce skilled movement too.
What I would prefer is a rotating screen because it would make wall walking much more realistic (In my view). Obviously allow people to turn this off.
Also, I think it should propel you further and leaping off a wall will allow you to go further/faster when you are on a wall. This would promote people to jump onto and off of walls when they are trying to chase someone/get to someone and it would make it less predictable about where you are going to go.
I hope UWE considers this.
As far as I know, they did look into it for awhile. However usefull it is, it can also be nauseating and I believe that is the reason why they ultimately decided to not go with it.
I do believe it can be made alot more smooth then in AvP2, were I believe the most confusing part was when you walked over tiny ledges and props on the wall and your screen went crazy. This could be reduced by just having the screen rotate around the center of the screen, and not "flip". That way you would also keep your aim at the same point even when you change orientation by sidestepping to a new face. Obviously, if you walk straight into a wall you'd have to re-aim... No need to make us super lazy.
[edit] I realise that I said pretty much the same thing in a few posts up. Oh well =) [/edit]
The funny thing is how the map looks different from the ceiling, it's really hard to recognize anything.
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welcome to the forums..
but this sounds like crap to me. %40 loss in fov?! no...
as for running in 16:9, who doesn't sell widescreen monitors these days? its a standard and should be accepted, it does not effect viewing area vertically - thats still up to the FOV. (horizontal or vertical scaled)
i do agree with you about having to look level to stay on a wall... its the silliest design ever. it actually <b>LIMITS </b>you from being an ambushing skulk sometimes, as you might be in a corner wanting to position yourself correctly, going down slightly, and as you do you drop pre emptively.
If the code change doesn't fix it you could add clipping to solve the occasional problem area.
It is far more sensible to get a good procedural system working which handles most cases, and have mappers fix the rest, than to tell your mappers to do it all, once the procedural solution is written it continues to save work the longer it is in use, but the longer you go without it the more work you have to do fiixing up levels.
It would be a mistake to change that. It's not hard to wallwalk in NS or NS2, if you got trouble with it, it's simply a lack of skill.
Yes, the geometry in some of the NS2 levels can make it a bit harder, because your wallwalking is dependent on your view angle.
But it is possible to aquire the skill nessesary to avoid falling, and it is not too hard.
And it is definitly better than the AVP style, which sometimes made you go in circles in vents, and make you totally disorientated.
No need for change here, maybe just a need for practice?
but this sounds like crap to me. %40 loss in fov?! no...
as for running in 16:9, who doesn't sell widescreen monitors these days? its a standard and should be accepted, it does not effect viewing area vertically - thats still up to the FOV. (horizontal or vertical scaled)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In NS2 your FOV changes if you are using a widescreen resolution - you actually see less vertically instead of a a little extra horizontally. Personally I hope they change this as I need to run it at 4:3 on my 16:10 monitor as the FOV I get on my native resolution makes me feel sick.