The problem is that Cyst spam occurs because as an alien you want access to terrain you can build and heal on.
In future builds, one cyst will (potentially) provide a larger area of coverage. See recent UWE videos where they explain the systems they are looking to implement.
Another problem with Cyst spam is due to the almost non-existent build time. It may be convenient for the Alien Comm on the go, but it leaves little to no time for Marines to eliminate newly placed Cysts.
I'd suggest giving them a short build time (5-10 seconds), and infestation only starts spreading once the Cyst is completely built.
Cysts are a vital part of the alien resource system. If theyre causing server problems its because things need to be optimised, not removed from the game.
You can shoot cysts and they go away. If the server crashed due to cysts there must have been hundreds - or thousands?, or it was a poor server. Don't see why you're blaming a player for the game not being optimized.
I've never seen so many cysts the server crashed. The alien comm must have been doing nothing else but hovering over the marines clicking the cysts button then waiting for it to recharge. Silly!
Probably this is related to the stalemate issue. In games that keep going on and on aliens will spend res on something.
@PsiWarp: Like that suggestion. 10 seconds sounds good, then he cysts is fully formed and maybe starts to sink into infestation slowly.
Another thing could be to only let the next cyst in the chain be placed once the previous one is fully developed - that would make cysts spamming impossible.
<!--quoteo(post=1888809:date=Dec 6 2011, 03:17 PM:name=peregrinus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peregrinus @ Dec 6 2011, 03:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1888809"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Another thing could be to only let the next cyst in the chain be placed once the previous one is fully developed - that would make cysts spamming impossible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indeed, and if they plan to implement the distance-based cyst system, it won't hinder Kharaa from reaching res nodes on big maps (e.g. old alien start to generator or crevice on Summit)
I dont know where did you read peregrinus I want them removed. I dont know how many cysts need to crash the server, I have no time to count them neither. This makes turrets useless in the game, so marines loose a really important part of their means. No it wasnt stalemate. They had only two hives, we had all the other hives secured by turrets until they spammed them with cysts and 1 fade could get the turrets easily. I had no time to spam turret ammo reload, I ran out of resources to reload, I couldnt watch out for the hive siege, we lost outer base and we lost the siege. After that they started spamming main base and server crashed.
I personally hate reloading sentries, it is a dull and annoying experience for the commander. I really gain no pleasure from forgetting, and I find the 'skill' in remembering to spam reload my sentries irritating.
Harsh criticism, but it is a pet hate. Along with sentry design in general and the Fade attack 2...
<!--quoteo(post=1888815:date=Dec 7 2011, 12:37 AM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Dec 7 2011, 12:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1888815"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I personally hate reloading sentries, it is a dull and annoying experience for the commander. I really gain no pleasure from forgetting, and I find the 'skill' in remembering to spam reload my sentries irritating.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 It's unintuitive. Especially against its counter-part the hydra spam.
<!--quoteo(post=1888794:date=Dec 6 2011, 03:10 PM:name=IeptBarakat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IeptBarakat @ Dec 6 2011, 03:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1888794"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Could make it cost a minor amount of resources like the gorge.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ZeikkoJoin Date: 2007-12-16Member: 63179Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
Are you guys seriously complaining about the fact that Cysts can be used to counter turrets? I think the only problem here is the turret spam. Just like Wizard said: <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They had only two hives, we had all the other hives secured by turrets until they spammed them with cysts and 1 fade could get the turrets easily.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> so instead of trying to prevent aliens from getting the second hive by fighting for the map control over rts or tech points the marine team decided to turret spam half of the map. How fun! I wasn't in the game, but after reading Wizard's description of the game I think that aliens deserved to win. I think that turret spam needs to be resolved and limited. Not the cysts. NS2 is not a tower defence!
<!--quoteo(post=1888873:date=Dec 7 2011, 09:07 AM:name=Zeikko)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zeikko @ Dec 7 2011, 09:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1888873"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you guys seriously complaining about the fact that Cysts can be used to counter turrets? I think the only problem here is the turret spam. Just like Wizard said: so instead of trying to prevent aliens from getting the second hive by fighting for the map control over rts or tech points the marine team decided to turret spam half of the map. How fun! I wasn't in the game, but after reading Wizard's description of the game I think that aliens deserved to win. I think that turret spam needs to be resolved and limited. Not the cysts. NS2 is not a tower defence!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
whhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?
1. You say securing hives with turrets is not preventing of placing a hive. WHAT? 2. You say max. 4 turret / room is spam. Seems like you havent play NS1? Turrets are the part of the game. Just like in NS1, turret > alien (except onos) 3. Marine team tried to get the 2nd hive but they couldnt, you werent there, dont judge. Aliens came with 5 fades (1 hive = fades on HBZ) 4. cysts are NOT for countering turrets, thats not the role of them. I cant spam anything to counter hydras neither. 5. Marine team is fighting, MACs are building.
I understand you think the best way to fight aliens is to send the team together but this works on a scrim but not on public. If you say its a tactical fault to take over Sub (hive: FC, base: DC) with 3 turrets ill look at you with big eyes. The best what a team can do is to conquer territy, make beach-head. This means the territory behind it is secured and the manpower can be added to other part of the part, we can do more pressure on other place.
<!--quoteo(post=1888885:date=Dec 7 2011, 11:05 AM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Dec 7 2011, 11:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1888885"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Looks like a legitimate strategy to counter sentries. Can itself be countered by ARCs. Working as intended?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, ARCs cant counter them, they are not meant to be a counter-cysts-spam-weapon. They shoot slowly (if they shoot, buggy arcs) and only can aim 1 close cyst while turrets aim to distant cysts too. I tried it. I placed 1 ARC between the turrets, scanned while spam but no use.
<!--quoteo(post=1888895:date=Dec 7 2011, 11:59 AM:name=lame-o)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lame-o @ Dec 7 2011, 11:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1888895"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Cysts are a bit too easy to use, yeah. You could easily creep the entire map in a couple of minutes if you felt like it.
I think there needs to be a resource cost or a timer or an energy cost (like a special little cyst juice pool that fills up slowly).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
FYI. Cysts costs hive energy. Just thought you should know.
<!--quoteo(post=1888886:date=Dec 7 2011, 12:11 PM:name=WizardHUN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WizardHUN @ Dec 7 2011, 12:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1888886"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, ARCs cant counter them, they are not meant to be a counter-cysts-spam-weapon. They shoot slowly (if they shoot, buggy arcs) and only can aim 1 close cyst while turrets aim to distant cysts too. I tried it. I placed 1 ARC between the turrets, scanned while spam but no use.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That sounds more like a problem with the ARC, not the cysts.
Like some of the other people above have pointed out. Cysts arn't the root of the problem - they have an energy cost and are easily killed. Its kind of ridiculous to get all in a huff about an alien comm spamming cysts which ruin games way less than turret spam. If they are spamming cysts in your base, then its end game and you should have lost already by rights or its early game and the alien comm is just wasting energy.
1. You say securing hives with turrets is not preventing of placing a hive. WHAT? 2. You say max. 4 turret / room is spam. Seems like you havent play NS1? Turrets are the part of the game. Just like in NS1, turret > alien (except onos) 3. Marine team tried to get the 2nd hive but they couldnt, you werent there, dont judge. Aliens came with 5 fades (1 hive = fades on HBZ) 4. cysts are NOT for countering turrets, thats not the role of them. I cant spam anything to counter hydras neither. 5. Marine team is fighting, MACs are building.
I understand you think the best way to fight aliens is to send the team together but this works on a scrim but not on public. If you say its a tactical fault to take over Sub (hive: FC, base: DC) with 3 turrets ill look at you with big eyes. The best what a team can do is to conquer territy, make beach-head. This means the territory behind it is secured and the manpower can be added to other part of the part, we can do more pressure on other place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <ol type='1'><li>Turrets are indeed for securing tech points. But not in the early game. You can't lock down all tech points before a hive is put up. Thus you should focus on getting upgrades and weapons to get the first hive down.</li><li> Sure I have played NS1 (Why such assumption?). Starting with turrets is just bad and players doing that deserve to lose. Sure turrets are part of the game but in NS1 turrets had counters like onos and umbra. Even fades were better against turrets. Clever use of cysts combined with bile bombing and fade / skulk defending gorge is pretty much the only way to break turret spam in ns2. That requires cooperation of atleast 3 player, whereas turret spam requires no teamwork nor skill.</li><li>Taking a hive down is very difficult if the comm uses all the res on turrets.</li><li>Why are they not? Why should the marine commander to have something more against hydras? Aren't ARCs and GLs enough? Hydras are worth nothing after the first 5 minutes of game</li></ol>
Turret spam is ridiculously overpowered and hard to counter already. Building turret spam requires no teamwork or commander - player cooperation and so boring way to play. It's boring for both marines and aliens. I just fail to see why the use of cysts against turret spam is a problem.
Using cysts to crash the server is a problem for sure but has nothing to do with the game design really.
<!--quoteo(post=1888905:date=Dec 7 2011, 01:25 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Dec 7 2011, 01:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1888905"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Like some of the other people above have pointed out. Cysts arn't the root of the problem - they have an energy cost and are easily killed. Its kind of ridiculous to get all in a huff about an alien comm spamming cysts which ruin games way less than turret spam. If they are spamming cysts in your base, then its end game and you should have lost already by rights or its early game and the alien comm is just wasting energy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1888906:date=Dec 7 2011, 01:26 PM:name=Zeikko)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zeikko @ Dec 7 2011, 01:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1888906"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><ol type='1'><li>Turrets are indeed for securing tech points. But not in the early game. You can't lock down all tech points before a hive is put up. Thus you should focus on getting upgrades and weapons to get the first hive down.</li><li> Sure I have played NS1 (Why such assumption?). Starting with turrets is just bad and players doing that deserve to lose. Sure turrets are part of the game but in NS1 turrets had counters like onos and umbra. Even fades were better against turrets. Clever use of cysts combined with bile bombing and fade / skulk defending gorge is pretty much the only way to break turret spam in ns2. That requires cooperation of atleast 3 player, whereas turret spam requires no teamwork nor skill.</li><li>Taking a hive down is very difficult if the comm uses all the res on turrets.</li><li>Why are they not? Why should the marine commander to have something more against hydras? Aren't ARCs and GLs enough? Hydras are worth nothing after the first 5 minutes of game</li></ol>
Turret spam is ridiculously overpowered and hard to counter already. Building turret spam requires no teamwork or commander - player cooperation and so boring way to play. It's boring for both marines and aliens. I just fail to see why the use of cysts against turret spam is a problem.
Using cysts to crash the server is a problem for sure but has nothing to do with the game design really.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. Early game or late game, its completely subjective. Its up to players to decide what they want. You are pretty conservative. Im not stupid, I know there are more ways to win a game:) 2. What? I deserve to loose because i play different way of tactic? What you talk about is balance and subjective tactical ways. What I am talking about is the wrong use of cysts. 4 turrets/room is spam?! No.
You have problem with balance Zeikko, I have problem with the infinite cysts. You keep saying indirectly, I am placing turrets instead of giving upgrades to my team but thats not true, i repeat: you were not there. They had all the upgrades:)
<!--quoteo(post=1888909:date=Dec 7 2011, 01:45 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Dec 7 2011, 01:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1888909"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You miss the point. Turret spam or not, cysts do not need limiting. You can shoot them you know right.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Imo, 4 turrets per room is spam. 20 res per turret und 3 or maybe even more rooms you try to cover eat so many team res that could be spent somewhere else to support your team in other regards..
And you compare your mini stalemate to ns1, which doesnt really work. In ns1 it was possible to secure the middle hive with turrets when you were fast and had superior map control anyway as aliens in early game didnt have a real counter to that. Especially in unorganized pub gameplay. In ns2 there are many tech points you can choose from which makes shutting down one hive an obsolete tactic, while ahutting down more than one costs way too many resources that can, as stated above, be used somewhere else with more effectiveness.
<!--quoteo(post=1888916:date=Dec 7 2011, 02:50 PM:name=Pampelmuse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pampelmuse @ Dec 7 2011, 02:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1888916"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Imo, 4 turrets per room is spam. 20 res per turret und 3 or maybe even more rooms you try to cover eat so many team res that could be spent somewhere else to support your team in other regards..
And you compare your mini stalemate to ns1, which doesnt really work. In ns1 it was possible to secure the middle hive with turrets when you were fast and had superior map control anyway as aliens in early game didnt have a real counter to that. Especially in unorganized pub gameplay. In ns2 there are many tech points you can choose from which makes shutting down one hive an obsolete tactic, while ahutting down more than one costs way too many resources that can, as stated above, be used somewhere else with more effectiveness.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, now I know I can spend res on other things than turrets. Did you know there is cheese in the cheeseburger?:)
I proposed to limit the total number of turrets to 4 in another thread, so I would say 4 per room is spam, but I have to admit I particularly hate turrets :) Anyway this kind of silliness (structure spam, whip rushes, ...) are bound to happen in beta, the cyst mechanics will be changed so I guess this problem will be fixed with it.
Solution: Limit or disallow dropping cysts in powered (socketed) rooms.
Otherwise, cysts cost energy which could be spent doing other stuff. So, its up to the alien comm.
One of the great aspects of good RTS games is that there are many avenues to win. Just because someone doesn't like a certain way of doing it doesn't make it bad.
Comments
In future builds, one cyst will (potentially) provide a larger area of coverage. See recent UWE videos where they explain the systems they are looking to implement.
I'd suggest giving them a short build time (5-10 seconds), and infestation only starts spreading once the Cyst is completely built.
You can shoot cysts and they go away. If the server crashed due to cysts there must have been hundreds - or thousands?, or it was a poor server. Don't see why you're blaming a player for the game not being optimized.
I've never seen so many cysts the server crashed. The alien comm must have been doing nothing else but hovering over the marines clicking the cysts button then waiting for it to recharge. Silly!
Probably this is related to the stalemate issue. In games that keep going on and on aliens will spend res on something.
@PsiWarp: Like that suggestion. 10 seconds sounds good, then he cysts is fully formed and maybe starts to sink into infestation slowly.
Another thing could be to only let the next cyst in the chain be placed once the previous one is fully developed - that would make cysts spamming impossible.
Indeed, and if they plan to implement the distance-based cyst system, it won't hinder Kharaa from reaching res nodes on big maps (e.g. old alien start to generator or crevice on Summit)
Harsh criticism, but it is a pet hate. Along with sentry design in general and the Fade attack 2...
+1 It's unintuitive. Especially against its counter-part the hydra spam.
That sounds good IMO! :)
so instead of trying to prevent aliens from getting the second hive by fighting for the map control over rts or tech points the marine team decided to turret spam half of the map. How fun! I wasn't in the game, but after reading Wizard's description of the game I think that aliens deserved to win.
I think that turret spam needs to be resolved and limited. Not the cysts.
NS2 is not a tower defence!
so instead of trying to prevent aliens from getting the second hive by fighting for the map control over rts or tech points the marine team decided to turret spam half of the map. How fun! I wasn't in the game, but after reading Wizard's description of the game I think that aliens deserved to win.
I think that turret spam needs to be resolved and limited. Not the cysts.
NS2 is not a tower defence!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
whhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?
1. You say securing hives with turrets is not preventing of placing a hive. WHAT?
2. You say max. 4 turret / room is spam. Seems like you havent play NS1? Turrets are the part of the game. Just like in NS1, turret > alien (except onos)
3. Marine team tried to get the 2nd hive but they couldnt, you werent there, dont judge. Aliens came with 5 fades (1 hive = fades on HBZ)
4. cysts are NOT for countering turrets, thats not the role of them. I cant spam anything to counter hydras neither.
5. Marine team is fighting, MACs are building.
I understand you think the best way to fight aliens is to send the team together but this works on a scrim but not on public. If you say its a tactical fault to take over Sub (hive: FC, base: DC) with 3 turrets ill look at you with big eyes. The best what a team can do is to conquer territy, make beach-head. This means the territory behind it is secured and the manpower can be added to other part of the part, we can do more pressure on other place.
No, ARCs cant counter them, they are not meant to be a counter-cysts-spam-weapon. They shoot slowly (if they shoot, buggy arcs) and only can aim 1 close cyst while turrets aim to distant cysts too. I tried it. I placed 1 ARC between the turrets, scanned while spam but no use.
I think there needs to be a resource cost or a timer or an energy cost (like a special little cyst juice pool that fills up slowly).
That's the true "need a counter".
I think there needs to be a resource cost or a timer or an energy cost (like a special little cyst juice pool that fills up slowly).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
FYI. Cysts costs hive energy. Just thought you should know.
That sounds more like a problem with the ARC, not the cysts.
1. You say securing hives with turrets is not preventing of placing a hive. WHAT?
2. You say max. 4 turret / room is spam. Seems like you havent play NS1? Turrets are the part of the game. Just like in NS1, turret > alien (except onos)
3. Marine team tried to get the 2nd hive but they couldnt, you werent there, dont judge. Aliens came with 5 fades (1 hive = fades on HBZ)
4. cysts are NOT for countering turrets, thats not the role of them. I cant spam anything to counter hydras neither.
5. Marine team is fighting, MACs are building.
I understand you think the best way to fight aliens is to send the team together but this works on a scrim but not on public. If you say its a tactical fault to take over Sub (hive: FC, base: DC) with 3 turrets ill look at you with big eyes. The best what a team can do is to conquer territy, make beach-head. This means the territory behind it is secured and the manpower can be added to other part of the part, we can do more pressure on other place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<ol type='1'><li>Turrets are indeed for securing tech points. But not in the early game. You can't lock down all tech points before a hive is put up. Thus you should focus on getting upgrades and weapons to get the first hive down.</li><li> Sure I have played NS1 (Why such assumption?). Starting with turrets is just bad and players doing that deserve to lose. Sure turrets are part of the game but in NS1 turrets had counters like onos and umbra. Even fades were better against turrets. Clever use of cysts combined with bile bombing and fade / skulk defending gorge is pretty much the only way to break turret spam in ns2. That requires cooperation of atleast 3 player, whereas turret spam requires no teamwork nor skill.</li><li>Taking a hive down is very difficult if the comm uses all the res on turrets.</li><li>Why are they not? Why should the marine commander to have something more against hydras? Aren't ARCs and GLs enough? Hydras are worth nothing after the first 5 minutes of game</li></ol>
Turret spam is ridiculously overpowered and hard to counter already. Building turret spam requires no teamwork or commander - player cooperation and so boring way to play. It's boring for both marines and aliens. I just fail to see why the use of cysts against turret spam is a problem.
Using cysts to crash the server is a problem for sure but has nothing to do with the game design really.
There is no turret spam. 4/room.
Turret spam is ridiculously overpowered and hard to counter already. Building turret spam requires no teamwork or commander - player cooperation and so boring way to play. It's boring for both marines and aliens. I just fail to see why the use of cysts against turret spam is a problem.
Using cysts to crash the server is a problem for sure but has nothing to do with the game design really.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. Early game or late game, its completely subjective. Its up to players to decide what they want. You are pretty conservative. Im not stupid, I know there are more ways to win a game:)
2. What? I deserve to loose because i play different way of tactic? What you talk about is balance and subjective tactical ways. What I am talking about is the wrong use of cysts. 4 turrets/room is spam?! No.
You have problem with balance Zeikko, I have problem with the infinite cysts. You keep saying indirectly, I am placing turrets instead of giving upgrades to my team but thats not true, i repeat: you were not there. They had all the upgrades:)
No, thats totally new to me.
And you compare your mini stalemate to ns1, which doesnt really work. In ns1 it was possible to secure the middle hive with turrets when you were fast and had superior map control anyway as aliens in early game didnt have a real counter to that. Especially in unorganized pub gameplay.
In ns2 there are many tech points you can choose from which makes shutting down one hive an obsolete tactic, while ahutting down more than one costs way too many resources that can, as stated above, be used somewhere else with more effectiveness.
And you compare your mini stalemate to ns1, which doesnt really work. In ns1 it was possible to secure the middle hive with turrets when you were fast and had superior map control anyway as aliens in early game didnt have a real counter to that. Especially in unorganized pub gameplay.
In ns2 there are many tech points you can choose from which makes shutting down one hive an obsolete tactic, while ahutting down more than one costs way too many resources that can, as stated above, be used somewhere else with more effectiveness.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, now I know I can spend res on other things than turrets. Did you know there is cheese in the cheeseburger?:)
Anyway this kind of silliness (structure spam, whip rushes, ...) are bound to happen in beta, the cyst mechanics will be changed so I guess this problem will be fixed with it.
Otherwise, cysts cost energy which could be spent doing other stuff. So, its up to the alien comm.
One of the great aspects of good RTS games is that there are many avenues to win. Just because someone doesn't like a certain way of doing it doesn't make it bad.