swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited December 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1889915:date=Dec 12 2011, 11:27 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Dec 12 2011, 11:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1889915"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd also like to see some curving on the ethereal form at the very least - it's not obeying the physics in the first place. At that point you could access a lot more angles and speeds to exit the blink rather than going headfirst into every situation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The etheral mode already have some curving when going around corners, and requires a bit of skill to not bump into walls and such. This is something that have been added in one of the latest updates, can't remember which one though. I think the best way of explaining the current curving of etheral mode, is to compare it to a car drifting.
<!--quoteo(post=1889924:date=Dec 12 2011, 12:32 PM:name=Fluid Core)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fluid Core @ Dec 12 2011, 12:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1889924"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think I'm a very good player, but I already do this. Just yesterday I was killed by a single shotgun blast from full health and I think full armor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's simply not possible :P You must have taken multiple shots from the SG, or from other stuff.
<!--quoteo(post=1889916:date=Dec 12 2011, 11:28 AM:name=ogz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ogz @ Dec 12 2011, 11:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1889916"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ppl claim that this will cause fades to need more skill to play, but from what I see.. nothing stops someone from playing the fade as they do now... they just have more options to run around the map quicker / run away faster (ie.. fade will be more OP than now)
you can still fly straight towards a person as opposed to trying to 'leap' towards them in an arc<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This will make traveling easier for fades, and potentially make them alot more vulnerable in combat. As the energy drain would need to be increased for this to work properly.
Can't any of the issue be addressed elsewhere without altering the fade in such a high degree?
<!--quoteo(post=1889686:date=Dec 10 2011, 08:32 PM:name=Fluid Core)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fluid Core @ Dec 10 2011, 08:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1889686"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are a few goals that I believe that implementation address. First of all, it makes the Fade a harder class to master, you have to predict were you will land and anticipate were your target will be if you are to make efficient kills.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This sounds like a nerf to make the Fade more difficult to control. So, now that I read it that way. You are not just raising the skill ceiling, but you are also raising the floor. This doesn't mean this is not a viable solution, but it does deter newbie Fades. To leave the floor where it is and raise that ceiling, providing additional controls and abilities is what you are driving at. The whole discussion on blinking in different directions and blink timing (while being stationary) would provide that ceiling you are looking for. What more, as the marines are better equipped, the Fade will become more difficult to master (read: overcome marines).
<!--quoteo(post=1889686:date=Dec 10 2011, 08:32 PM:name=Fluid Core)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fluid Core @ Dec 10 2011, 08:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1889686"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Secondly, there is some merit in the point that you as a fade really run no risk of dieing. As long as you don't get greedy, there is no way that the marines can prevent you from safely escaping. Making for many quick blinks in midair to keep up your speed would give more skill to escaping and give the marines a chance to finish of a bad fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As you state, as JPs come out, Fades will have a new challenge. In addition, players need to learn what kills a fade? If you all remember, it wasn't intuitive the first time we played NS1 to go and run in front of the doorway when a Fade entered a room... it was learned. Likewise, there will be habits that we learn as the game grows making the Fade more of a challenge to play. Ex. Marines feel safe in large open rooms, a skulks weakness. Against Fades, Marines should be in small corridors where there are fewer potential areas that the Fade can appear at, and more potential for landed shotgun blasts. As it stands, they tend to run for open rooms and decrease there chances of a successful hit.
This addresses, in part, my opinion that a slight loss of adrenaline on damage would hamper those long hall escapes. Whereas, the skilled fade receives little to no damage is awarded the long escape -or- goes in knowing he will only have so much adrenaline to work with when he exits battle.
<!--quoteo(post=1889686:date=Dec 10 2011, 08:32 PM:name=Fluid Core)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fluid Core @ Dec 10 2011, 08:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1889686"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thirdly, and in my opinion one of the most important ones, it makes playing the fade more fun and feel less like you sliding along a rail.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Part of the fun should return as Marines pose more as a threat and new abilities are added. As mentioned above, those more 'precise" controls may be all that are needed.
>ppl claim that this will cause fades to need more skill to play, but from what I see.. nothing stops someone >from playing the fade as they do now... they just have more options to run around the map quicker / run >away faster (ie.. fade will be more OP than now)
Yeah this is a problem, it's not really useful to introduce new things if the optimal strategy is to play like in the old version. But there is a bug/feature in the mod that changes things a bit is that the fade walk is much slower (slower than marines) so you cannot run in circle after a marine a try to kill him. You really need to blink.
From the online play test I would say that the fade with the momentum looks at least as good as the one without, it looks very natural (without momentum you sometimes see fades fall vertically from the ceiling, which look a bit strange). On thing which is very nice also is when you fly by a marine and you kill it in flight, it feels really good.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited December 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1889938:date=Dec 12 2011, 04:27 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Dec 12 2011, 04:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1889938"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->>ppl claim that this will cause fades to need more skill to play, but from what I see.. nothing stops someone >from playing the fade as they do now... they just have more options to run around the map quicker / run >away faster (ie.. fade will be more OP than now)
Yeah this is a problem, it's not really useful to introduce new things if the optimal strategy is to play like in the old version. But there is a bug/feature in the mod that changes things a bit is that the fade walk is much slower (slower than marines) so you cannot run in circle after a marine a try to kill him. You really need to blink.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, the thing is, when fades are not in etheral, they can take damage, which will make them LESS overpowered. This change will cause fades to be less in etheral, and make traveling for fades a bit easier on their energy drain. There isn't really a problem with this change, the energy drain in etheral mode just needs to be adjusted accordingly.
<!--quoteo(post=1889925:date=Dec 12 2011, 01:21 PM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Dec 12 2011, 01:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1889925"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's simply not possible :P You must have taken multiple shots from the SG, or from other stuff.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, all I know was that I was swiping the atrium powernode at full health and some armor. At 1% left i hear a shorgun blast and instantly died. One marine was standing on the catwalk, and might have been another beside him. They could have coordinated attacking i suppose. Was no explosion atleast. :p
<!--quoteo(post=1889939:date=Dec 12 2011, 05:35 PM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Dec 12 2011, 05:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1889939"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, the thing is, when fades are not in etheral, they can take damage, which will make them LESS overpowered. This change will cause fades to be less in etheral, and make traveling for fades a bit easier on their energy drain. There isn't really a problem with this change, the energy drain in etheral mode just needs to be adjusted accordingly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. This would make fades both harder to master (more risky if you're spending more time out of the ethereal mode and you need to adjust your blinks to land in the spot you want to) but also potentially more powerful as you can travel faster and further. Just brainstorming here, but what do you guys think of adding extra damage to swipe depending on your momentum which would reward you for well aimed blinks?
As has been stated, these changes won't make the controls any more imprecise. It just takes a bit more effort for the players to be effective. Grenade launchers are not imprecise, either, even though you need a bit calculation to know where to aim. Unlike hitscan weapons, they follow the laws of physics and are therefore a bit harder to aim (in theory, that is, everyone knows grenade launchers are powerful).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree. This would make fades both harder to master (more risky if you're spending more time out of the ethereal mode and you need to adjust your blinks to land in the spot you want to) but also potentially more powerful as you can travel faster and further. Just brainstorming here, but what do you guys think of adding extra damage to swipe depending on your momentum which would reward you for well aimed blinks?
As has been stated, these changes won't make the controls any more imprecise. It just takes a bit more effort for the players to be effective. Grenade launchers are not imprecise, either, even though you need a bit calculation to know where to aim. Unlike hitscan weapons, they follow the laws of physics and are therefore a bit harder to aim (in theory, that is, everyone knows grenade launchers are powerful).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No way. You guys are saying fades are noob cannons which destroy everyone. From these suggestions, the only problem is that it is easy for everyone to own with a fade, instead of just hardcore players like you. You're just buffing the fade further, so when a few players master them they'll destroy whole teams.
First off, you're just making fades quicker for players who have the time to master what would effectively become super bunny hoping. If you add momentum based damage on top of that, you're only making it worse. Sure, you're making it so the few who have the time to "master" such a overly complex movement system will be better than most players. However, those few players will become ridiculously powerful allowing a single player to effectively sway the outcome of a whole game. Don't disguise it; you're making the fade a super strong life form for only the most hardcore players at the cost of everyone else.
I do think the fade needs adjustments in general, including the way his blink operates, but this is going in the wrong direction; it is only making the current problems worse.
<!--quoteo(post=1889958:date=Dec 12 2011, 07:58 PM:name=l3lessed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (l3lessed @ Dec 12 2011, 07:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1889958"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No way. You guys are saying fades are noob cannons which destroy everyone. From these suggestions, the only problem is that it is easy for everyone to own with a fade, instead of just hardcore players like you. You're just buffing the fade further, so when a few players master them they'll destroy whole teams.
First off, you're just making fades quicker for players who have the time to master what would effectively become super bunny hoping. If you add momentum based damage on top of that, you're only making it worse. Sure, you're making it so the few who have the time to "master" such a overly complex movement system will be better than most players. However, those few players will become ridiculously powerful allowing a single player to effectively sway the outcome of a whole game. Don't disguise it; you're making the fade a super strong life form for only the most hardcore players at the cost of everyone else.
I do think the fade needs adjustments in general, including the way his blink operates, but this is going in the wrong direction; it is only making the current problems worse.
<!--quoteo(post=1889958:date=Dec 12 2011, 06:58 PM:name=l3lessed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (l3lessed @ Dec 12 2011, 06:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1889958"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First off, you're just making fades quicker for players who have the time to master what would effectively become super bunny hoping. If you add momentum based damage on top of that, you're only making it worse. Sure, you're making it so the few who have the time to "master" such a overly complex movement system will be better than most players. However, those few players will become ridiculously powerful allowing a single player to effectively sway the outcome of a whole game. Don't disguise it; you're making the fade a super strong life form for only the most hardcore players at the cost of everyone else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're being paranoid there. Ideally noob fade should be balanced against noobs marines, and pro fade should be balanced against pro marines. Pro fade should destroy noob marines, and pro marines should destroy noob fade. Looks like good design.
You can propose other combinations, but I doubt any will work better. E.g. if you want pro fade to be balanced against noob marines I have difficulty to imagine how pro fade will not be destroyed by pro marines.
Anyway we are not making anything here, just discussing, to do something you have to implement it by writing some stuff in lua files. Then you can test it in game and see that the results are not the one expected.
NS1 blink and air control in general was excellent and a significant part of what gave the game long-term appeal. Invisible, invulnerable blink is a low skill-cap, boring activity with no lasting appeal.
Fades in NS looked silly and there seems to be no easy fix to make them look less silly without building gameplay around what works artistically. I think they made the right choice in NS1 v2.0 and sacrificed visual appeal for the sake of gameplay; when they've exhausted all the bad options I think they'll settle on something much like NS.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1889958:date=Dec 12 2011, 06:58 PM:name=l3lessed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (l3lessed @ Dec 12 2011, 06:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1889958"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No way. You guys are saying fades are noob cannons which destroy everyone. From these suggestions, the only problem is that it is easy for everyone to own with a fade, instead of just hardcore players like you. You're just buffing the fade further, so when a few players master them they'll destroy whole teams.
First off, you're just making fades quicker for players who have the time to master what would effectively become super bunny hoping. If you add momentum based damage on top of that, you're only making it worse. Sure, you're making it so the few who have the time to "master" such a overly complex movement system will be better than most players. However, those few players will become ridiculously powerful allowing a single player to effectively sway the outcome of a whole game. Don't disguise it; you're making the fade a super strong life form for only the most hardcore players at the cost of everyone else.
I do think the fade needs adjustments in general, including the way his blink operates, but this is going in the wrong direction; it is only making the current problems worse.
difficulty doesn't innately equal fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It doesn't make the fade faster, it makes him more visible and you have more time to shoot him. The fade keeps the momentum from the blink and have a little friction when coming out of blink. It doesn't seem to hard to do, judging from the video. But you could change it so the fade keeps his current walking speed, so he can catch up with marines when he is on the ground.
<!--quoteo(post=1890013:date=Dec 12 2011, 11:15 PM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Dec 12 2011, 11:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1890013"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It doesn't make the fade faster, it makes him more visible and you have more time to shoot him. The fade keeps the momentum from the blink and have a little friction when coming out of blink. It doesn't seem to hard to do, judging from the video. But you could change it so the fade keeps his current walking speed, so he can catch up with marines when he is on the ground.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I actually think the slow walk speed feels nice, it forces you to actually blink next to your target and use blink in combat. There is this bug that makes jumping faster due to lower air acceleration too.. But when I tried I felt more comfortable blinking in and out instead of jumping to catch up in melee. Once the blink initiation - swipe delay is reduced it'll be alot smoother to do short blinks too.
I dunno, this mod gives me mixed feelings... while it is ofc adding a "more skilful" mechanic, i dont like the current form of the mechanic.
All other skill movement systems give you always a positive feedback, you dont need to use them... but if you do i can greatly increase your strength. (and you always keep your precision, you can always kinda "airbreak" change directions etc)
This changed blink mechanic is designed the other way around, its designed to be annoying for you. (at least when it comes to combat)
<!--quoteo(post=1890017:date=Dec 12 2011, 11:43 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Dec 12 2011, 11:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1890017"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I dunno, this mod gives me mixed feelings... while it is ofc adding a "more skilful" mechanic, i dont like the current form of the mechanic.
All other skill movement systems give you always a positive feedback, you dont need to use them... but if you do i can greatly increase your strength. (and you always keep your precision, you can always kinda "airbreak" change directions etc)
This changed blink mechanic is designed the other way around, its designed to be annoying for you. (at least when it comes to combat)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have the option to blink by the ground so that you'll fall down right away and stop, you don't need to shoot through the air. You can also stop quickly in midair by not pressing forward. That makes you stop shortly after exiting blink. I can't agree with it being designed to be annoying, the first time I tried it alone I loved it, same on the first playtest.
I suppose so. It should be obvious I reply to you... xD
I don't think the state of the mod would be a final version. It's a concept, and even for such it behaves really well. We should make some more playtests and update the mod I think!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First off, you're just making fades quicker for players who have the time to master what would effectively become super bunny hoping. If you add momentum based damage on top of that, you're only making it worse. Sure, you're making it so the few who have the time to "master" such a overly complex movement system will be better than most players. However, those few players will become ridiculously powerful allowing a single player to effectively sway the outcome of a whole game. Don't disguise it; you're making the fade a super strong life form for only the most hardcore players at the cost of everyone else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> While bunnyhop would add a lot to the fade, like it did in NS1, I think you are overstating this issue. Look at NS1 blink right now, you can go to the game and its not really that hard to pick up. I remember the time when +movement was introduced and better players I talked to, were complaining it took the skill away from weapon changing, and that the current 3.2 blink was "too easy". In fact after +movement, many regular combat fades got decent.
Bunnyhop is waay harder to pick up than fade blink, which, in addition to lerk flight, are the most intuitive, yet hard to master skills in game. I'm much more worried about experienced and regular players getting bored of the current NS2 blink than beginners being intimidated by NS1 blink. I don't remember anyone quiting NS1 because blinking was "too hard". In fact I remember NS1 blink being liked by almost everyone who played the game regularly, unlike its controversial twin sister, bunnyhop.
Having some kind of momentum-based damage sounds a bit exotic and weird idea though, but that's not what I'm defending.
p.s. If you weren't challenging NS1-style blink then I apologize for confusion.
The blink functionality has a ton of different ways to balance it. Cool down (delay between successive usages) Cool up (slight delay on blink initiating) Ability restriction before/during/after blink (whether full restriction of usage, or nerfing damage/speed etc.) Visual restrictions in any of the above situations (use your imagination, there are countless options)
So far all the approaches to adjusting the fade have been rehashes of the same thing over and over again. How can we hope to get anywhere like this?
<!--quoteo(post=1890266:date=Dec 14 2011, 06:48 PM:name=Kalabalana)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kalabalana @ Dec 14 2011, 06:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1890266"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The blink functionality has a ton of different ways to balance it. Cool down (delay between successive usages) Cool up (slight delay on blink initiating) Ability restriction before/during/after blink (whether full restriction of usage, or nerfing damage/speed etc.) Visual restrictions in any of the above situations (use your imagination, there are countless options)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think adding delays is a solution to the issues the present official blink has. It's possible to make it difficult to deal damage as a fade, but the learning curve stays flat and the possible actions in a situation become even more unimaginative and limited than they are now.
<!--quoteo(post=1890270:date=Dec 14 2011, 01:09 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Dec 14 2011, 01:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1890270"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think adding delays is a solution to the issues the present official blink has. It's possible to make it difficult to deal damage as a fade, but the learning curve stays flat and the possible actions in a situation become even more unimaginative and limited than they are now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Excellent, so you agree with me on all other fronts! Smart man. I'm surprised you took into the account latency and it's effects on Fade game mechanics!
<!--quoteo(post=1889686:date=Dec 11 2011, 09:32 AM:name=Fluid Core)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fluid Core @ Dec 11 2011, 09:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1889686"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can see your concern, but I don't think that feel will be lost for neither fade nor marines. I love how the new blink makes you disappear and reappear out of nowhere, and that's not something I want gone. If anything, I think the proposed blink amplifies this feel. Keeping the momentum does so much for feeling like you're warping through the ether and being thrown out at the new location. It seems to me like you are judging from the first person view of the video. Yes, the proposed system have many similarities with the old blink, it appear quite similar from a fade perspective. The key difference would actually be that you disappear from harms way during the acceleration phase, and that you can't keep in this state for long. Compared to in NS1 where you blinked fairly straight and were fully visible at all times, with this change you would instead turn ethereal and then use your gained momentum to save adrenaline while you're falling down in an arc, to repeat the process to change direction and keep your speed up. It combines the best of two worlds; you can use the ethereal state to your advantage, and you need skill to blink and use it efficiently.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think this paragraph may have sold the idea for me (assuming the implementation is as this paragraph describes).
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
You peeps should separate between the two different debates going on here.
One is balancing the current fade blink mechanic.
The other is changing the blink mechanic to give the fade a deeper learning curve (not to mention make playing fade fun, right now it is boring as hell).
<!--quoteo(post=1890500:date=Dec 16 2011, 05:33 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Dec 16 2011, 05:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1890500"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The other is changing the blink mechanic to give the fade a deeper learning curve (not to mention make playing fade fun, right now it is boring as hell).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you have any specific idea, I can try to implement : <a href="http://unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115631" target="_blank">http://unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index....howtopic=115631</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1890519:date=Dec 16 2011, 01:18 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Dec 16 2011, 01:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1890519"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you have any specific idea, I can try to implement : <a href="http://unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115631" target="_blank">http://unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index....howtopic=115631</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Add a .3 second delay to attacking upon exit of blink. During this cool down, fuzz the screen along it's edges, and reduce fuzziness to clear for the end of that .3 seconds.
This is basically a slight nerf on the blink+attack combo which, when you take into account server latency, takes away the "free hit" fades get on players due to latency.
This is already pretty much done, as you should very rarely blink next to the target with the new implementation. Adding a delay would pretty much make hitting airborne targets impossible though, especially during short blinks, where the delay from entering were already noticable now.
If I put my head in sand, I can't see you. Therefore you can't see me. :)
Yes, it would be very boring and make any length of blinking very impercise. In the end it would give marines a distinct advantage, because the fade will have no idea where they will pop up and likely will end up far from them, having to run to them to get in range. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against fades being harder, but with that implementation the result would be the same as if blinking put you in a random location in a ~5m radius a certain distance from you, depending on how long you have blinked. Marines seeing a fade blink should get as far from their current location as possible, and getting to the right spot as a fade would be pure guesswork and no skill.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1890567:date=Dec 16 2011, 11:58 PM:name=Kalabalana)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kalabalana @ Dec 16 2011, 11:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1890567"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Add a .3 second delay to attacking upon exit of blink. During this cool down, fuzz the screen along it's edges, and reduce fuzziness to clear for the end of that .3 seconds.
This is basically a slight nerf on the blink+attack combo which, when you take into account server latency, takes away the "free hit" fades get on players due to latency.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> How does that add anything to the learning curve?
Comments
The etheral mode already have some curving when going around corners, and requires a bit of skill to not bump into walls and such.
This is something that have been added in one of the latest updates, can't remember which one though.
I think the best way of explaining the current curving of etheral mode, is to compare it to a car drifting.
<!--quoteo(post=1889924:date=Dec 12 2011, 12:32 PM:name=Fluid Core)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fluid Core @ Dec 12 2011, 12:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1889924"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think I'm a very good player, but I already do this. Just yesterday I was killed by a single shotgun blast from full health and I think full armor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's simply not possible :P
You must have taken multiple shots from the SG, or from other stuff.
<!--quoteo(post=1889916:date=Dec 12 2011, 11:28 AM:name=ogz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ogz @ Dec 12 2011, 11:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1889916"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ppl claim that this will cause fades to need more skill to play, but from what I see.. nothing stops someone from playing the fade as they do now... they just have more options to run around the map quicker / run away faster (ie.. fade will be more OP than now)
you can still fly straight towards a person as opposed to trying to 'leap' towards them in an arc<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This will make traveling easier for fades, and potentially make them alot more vulnerable in combat.
As the energy drain would need to be increased for this to work properly.
Thanks for the mod!
<!--quoteo(post=1889686:date=Dec 10 2011, 08:32 PM:name=Fluid Core)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fluid Core @ Dec 10 2011, 08:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1889686"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are a few goals that I believe that implementation address. First of all, it makes the Fade a harder class to master, you have to predict were you will land and anticipate were your target will be if you are to make efficient kills.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This sounds like a nerf to make the Fade more difficult to control. So, now that I read it that way. You are not just raising the skill ceiling, but you are also raising the floor. This doesn't mean this is not a viable solution, but it does deter newbie Fades. To leave the floor where it is and raise that ceiling, providing additional controls and abilities is what you are driving at. The whole discussion on blinking in different directions and blink timing (while being stationary) would provide that ceiling you are looking for.
What more, as the marines are better equipped, the Fade will become more difficult to master (read: overcome marines).
<!--quoteo(post=1889686:date=Dec 10 2011, 08:32 PM:name=Fluid Core)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fluid Core @ Dec 10 2011, 08:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1889686"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Secondly, there is some merit in the point that you as a fade really run no risk of dieing. As long as you don't get greedy, there is no way that the marines can prevent you from safely escaping. Making for many quick blinks in midair to keep up your speed would give more skill to escaping and give the marines a chance to finish of a bad fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As you state, as JPs come out, Fades will have a new challenge. In addition, players need to learn what kills a fade? If you all remember, it wasn't intuitive the first time we played NS1 to go and run in front of the doorway when a Fade entered a room... it was learned. Likewise, there will be habits that we learn as the game grows making the Fade more of a challenge to play. Ex. Marines feel safe in large open rooms, a skulks weakness. Against Fades, Marines should be in small corridors where there are fewer potential areas that the Fade can appear at, and more potential for landed shotgun blasts. As it stands, they tend to run for open rooms and decrease there chances of a successful hit.
This addresses, in part, my opinion that a slight loss of adrenaline on damage would hamper those long hall escapes. Whereas, the skilled fade receives little to no damage is awarded the long escape -or- goes in knowing he will only have so much adrenaline to work with when he exits battle.
<!--quoteo(post=1889686:date=Dec 10 2011, 08:32 PM:name=Fluid Core)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fluid Core @ Dec 10 2011, 08:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1889686"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thirdly, and in my opinion one of the most important ones, it makes playing the fade more fun and feel less like you sliding along a rail.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Part of the fun should return as Marines pose more as a threat and new abilities are added. As mentioned above, those more 'precise" controls may be all that are needed.
>from playing the fade as they do now... they just have more options to run around the map quicker / run
>away faster (ie.. fade will be more OP than now)
Yeah this is a problem, it's not really useful to introduce new things if the optimal strategy is to play like in the old version. But there is a bug/feature in the mod that changes things a bit is that the fade walk is much slower (slower than marines) so you cannot run in circle after a marine a try to kill him. You really need to blink.
From the online play test I would say that the fade with the momentum looks at least as good as the one without, it looks very natural (without momentum you sometimes see fades fall vertically from the ceiling, which look a bit strange). On thing which is very nice also is when you fly by a marine and you kill it in flight, it feels really good.
>from playing the fade as they do now... they just have more options to run around the map quicker / run
>away faster (ie.. fade will be more OP than now)
Yeah this is a problem, it's not really useful to introduce new things if the optimal strategy is to play like in the old version. But there is a bug/feature in the mod that changes things a bit is that the fade walk is much slower (slower than marines) so you cannot run in circle after a marine a try to kill him. You really need to blink.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, the thing is, when fades are not in etheral, they can take damage, which will make them LESS overpowered.
This change will cause fades to be less in etheral, and make traveling for fades a bit easier on their energy drain.
There isn't really a problem with this change, the energy drain in etheral mode just needs to be adjusted accordingly.
You must have taken multiple shots from the SG, or from other stuff.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, all I know was that I was swiping the atrium powernode at full health and some armor. At 1% left i hear a shorgun blast and instantly died. One marine was standing on the catwalk, and might have been another beside him. They could have coordinated attacking i suppose. Was no explosion atleast. :p
This change will cause fades to be less in etheral, and make traveling for fades a bit easier on their energy drain.
There isn't really a problem with this change, the energy drain in etheral mode just needs to be adjusted accordingly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. This would make fades both harder to master (more risky if you're spending more time out of the ethereal mode and you need to adjust your blinks to land in the spot you want to) but also potentially more powerful as you can travel faster and further. Just brainstorming here, but what do you guys think of adding extra damage to swipe depending on your momentum which would reward you for well aimed blinks?
As has been stated, these changes won't make the controls any more imprecise. It just takes a bit more effort for the players to be effective. Grenade launchers are not imprecise, either, even though you need a bit calculation to know where to aim. Unlike hitscan weapons, they follow the laws of physics and are therefore a bit harder to aim (in theory, that is, everyone knows grenade launchers are powerful).
As has been stated, these changes won't make the controls any more imprecise. It just takes a bit more effort for the players to be effective. Grenade launchers are not imprecise, either, even though you need a bit calculation to know where to aim. Unlike hitscan weapons, they follow the laws of physics and are therefore a bit harder to aim (in theory, that is, everyone knows grenade launchers are powerful).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No way. You guys are saying fades are noob cannons which destroy everyone. From these suggestions, the only problem is that it is easy for everyone to own with a fade, instead of just hardcore players like you. You're just buffing the fade further, so when a few players master them they'll destroy whole teams.
First off, you're just making fades quicker for players who have the time to master what would effectively become super bunny hoping. If you add momentum based damage on top of that, you're only making it worse. Sure, you're making it so the few who have the time to "master" such a overly complex movement system will be better than most players. However, those few players will become ridiculously powerful allowing a single player to effectively sway the outcome of a whole game. Don't disguise it; you're making the fade a super strong life form for only the most hardcore players at the cost of everyone else.
I do think the fade needs adjustments in general, including the way his blink operates, but this is going in the wrong direction; it is only making the current problems worse.
difficulty doesn't innately equal fun.
First off, you're just making fades quicker for players who have the time to master what would effectively become super bunny hoping. If you add momentum based damage on top of that, you're only making it worse. Sure, you're making it so the few who have the time to "master" such a overly complex movement system will be better than most players. However, those few players will become ridiculously powerful allowing a single player to effectively sway the outcome of a whole game. Don't disguise it; you're making the fade a super strong life form for only the most hardcore players at the cost of everyone else.
I do think the fade needs adjustments in general, including the way his blink operates, but this is going in the wrong direction; it is only making the current problems worse.
difficulty doesn't innately equal fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm hardly a good player. :) I just think that the game should reward players for skill.
You're being paranoid there. Ideally noob fade should be balanced against noobs marines, and pro fade should be balanced against pro marines. Pro fade should destroy noob marines, and pro marines should destroy noob fade. Looks like good design.
You can propose other combinations, but I doubt any will work better. E.g. if you want pro fade to be balanced against noob marines I have difficulty to imagine how pro fade will not be destroyed by pro marines.
Anyway we are not making anything here, just discussing, to do something you have to implement it by writing some stuff in lua files. Then you can test it in game and see that the results are not the one expected.
Fades in NS looked silly and there seems to be no easy fix to make them look less silly without building gameplay around what works artistically. I think they made the right choice in NS1 v2.0 and sacrificed visual appeal for the sake of gameplay; when they've exhausted all the bad options I think they'll settle on something much like NS.
First off, you're just making fades quicker for players who have the time to master what would effectively become super bunny hoping. If you add momentum based damage on top of that, you're only making it worse. Sure, you're making it so the few who have the time to "master" such a overly complex movement system will be better than most players. However, those few players will become ridiculously powerful allowing a single player to effectively sway the outcome of a whole game. Don't disguise it; you're making the fade a super strong life form for only the most hardcore players at the cost of everyone else.
I do think the fade needs adjustments in general, including the way his blink operates, but this is going in the wrong direction; it is only making the current problems worse.
difficulty doesn't innately equal fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It doesn't make the fade faster, it makes him more visible and you have more time to shoot him.
The fade keeps the momentum from the blink and have a little friction when coming out of blink.
It doesn't seem to hard to do, judging from the video.
But you could change it so the fade keeps his current walking speed, so he can catch up with marines when he is on the ground.
The fade keeps the momentum from the blink and have a little friction when coming out of blink.
It doesn't seem to hard to do, judging from the video.
But you could change it so the fade keeps his current walking speed, so he can catch up with marines when he is on the ground.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I actually think the slow walk speed feels nice, it forces you to actually blink next to your target and use blink in combat. There is this bug that makes jumping faster due to lower air acceleration too.. But when I tried I felt more comfortable blinking in and out instead of jumping to catch up in melee. Once the blink initiation - swipe delay is reduced it'll be alot smoother to do short blinks too.
All other skill movement systems give you always a positive feedback, you dont need to use them... but if you do i can greatly increase your strength.
(and you always keep your precision, you can always kinda "airbreak" change directions etc)
This changed blink mechanic is designed the other way around, its designed to be annoying for you. (at least when it comes to combat)
All other skill movement systems give you always a positive feedback, you dont need to use them... but if you do i can greatly increase your strength.
(and you always keep your precision, you can always kinda "airbreak" change directions etc)
This changed blink mechanic is designed the other way around, its designed to be annoying for you. (at least when it comes to combat)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have the option to blink by the ground so that you'll fall down right away and stop, you don't need to shoot through the air. You can also stop quickly in midair by not pressing forward. That makes you stop shortly after exiting blink. I can't agree with it being designed to be annoying, the first time I tried it alone I loved it, same on the first playtest.
but whatever - just because i dont 100%ly like the current way of the mod, doesnt mean that i cant work with it.
PS: quoting stuff above you is not logical (if everybody did this threads would become a mess) - no offence.
I don't think the state of the mod would be a final version. It's a concept, and even for such it behaves really well. We should make some more playtests and update the mod I think!
While bunnyhop would add a lot to the fade, like it did in NS1, I think you are overstating this issue. Look at NS1 blink right now, you can go to the game and its not really that hard to pick up. I remember the time when +movement was introduced and better players I talked to, were complaining it took the skill away from weapon changing, and that the current 3.2 blink was "too easy". In fact after +movement, many regular combat fades got decent.
Bunnyhop is waay harder to pick up than fade blink, which, in addition to lerk flight, are the most intuitive, yet hard to master skills in game. I'm much more worried about experienced and regular players getting bored of the current NS2 blink than beginners being intimidated by NS1 blink. I don't remember anyone quiting NS1 because blinking was "too hard". In fact I remember NS1 blink being liked by almost everyone who played the game regularly, unlike its controversial twin sister, bunnyhop.
Having some kind of momentum-based damage sounds a bit exotic and weird idea though, but that's not what I'm defending.
p.s. If you weren't challenging NS1-style blink then I apologize for confusion.
Cool down (delay between successive usages)
Cool up (slight delay on blink initiating)
Ability restriction before/during/after blink (whether full restriction of usage, or nerfing damage/speed etc.)
Visual restrictions in any of the above situations (use your imagination, there are countless options)
So far all the approaches to adjusting the fade have been rehashes of the same thing over and over again. How can we hope to get anywhere like this?
Cool down (delay between successive usages)
Cool up (slight delay on blink initiating)
Ability restriction before/during/after blink (whether full restriction of usage, or nerfing damage/speed etc.)
Visual restrictions in any of the above situations (use your imagination, there are countless options)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think adding delays is a solution to the issues the present official blink has. It's possible to make it difficult to deal damage as a fade, but the learning curve stays flat and the possible actions in a situation become even more unimaginative and limited than they are now.
Excellent, so you agree with me on all other fronts! Smart man. I'm surprised you took into the account latency and it's effects on Fade game mechanics!
I think this paragraph may have sold the idea for me (assuming the implementation is as this paragraph describes).
One is balancing the current fade blink mechanic.
The other is changing the blink mechanic to give the fade a deeper learning curve (not to mention make playing fade fun, right now it is boring as hell).
You can't really discuss both at the same time.
If you have any specific idea, I can try to implement : <a href="http://unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115631" target="_blank">http://unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index....howtopic=115631</a>
Add a .3 second delay to attacking upon exit of blink.
During this cool down, fuzz the screen along it's edges, and reduce fuzziness to clear for the end of that .3 seconds.
This is basically a slight nerf on the blink+attack combo which, when you take into account server latency, takes away the "free hit" fades get on players due to latency.
Yes, it would be very boring and make any length of blinking very impercise. In the end it would give marines a distinct advantage, because the fade will have no idea where they will pop up and likely will end up far from them, having to run to them to get in range. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against fades being harder, but with that implementation the result would be the same as if blinking put you in a random location in a ~5m radius a certain distance from you, depending on how long you have blinked. Marines seeing a fade blink should get as far from their current location as possible, and getting to the right spot as a fade would be pure guesswork and no skill.
During this cool down, fuzz the screen along it's edges, and reduce fuzziness to clear for the end of that .3 seconds.
This is basically a slight nerf on the blink+attack combo which, when you take into account server latency, takes away the "free hit" fades get on players due to latency.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How does that add anything to the learning curve?