<!--quoteo(post=1895257:date=Jan 18 2012, 09:31 AM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jan 18 2012, 09:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895257"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The idea of gameplay effects is interesting, but then they would need to be limited somehow. The main purpose of these is communication.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I fear that without gameplay effects, pheremones won't be used terribly often. I understand the dilemma: If a pheremone cloud costs something (cooldown, hive energy, team res) that means there could be a situation in which the commander needs to give an order but cannot due to an exhausted resource. I don't see many ways around this, other than having two types of pheremones: Boosted and non-boosted, but this is inelegant.
How about only being able to have one pheremone cloud active at a time? Or one type of cloud? The commander has to make a tradeoff between supporting an attack on a marine-controlled room with an attack cloud, or defending an alien-controlled area with a defend cloud.
The Kharaa are all entangled to the hivemind, right? It's their heart, their mother, their brain. Pheromones on the physical side and an hivemind ability for the psychical side. What if the Commander could buff the aliens with "thought" which grants them a huge positive effect.
For examples (just as concept numbers are placeholders):
Scent of Fear -> Every marine player on the map is visible through walls for 10 seconds Infestation boost -> Celerity, Silence Pheromones et cetera.
The Alien commander could help his team in action, the player does not ultimately have to do something special. It would act like the nanoshield ability, just not a single but a mass action.
<!--quoteo(post=1895281:date=Jan 18 2012, 12:11 AM:name=Scythe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scythe @ Jan 18 2012, 12:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895281"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I fear that without gameplay effects, pheremones won't be used terribly often.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't really see why, half the problem I have when telling people where to go is that I want to say 'go here' and point, only I can't, because it's the internet.
If I had a thingy that lets me basically say 'hey guys go here and do this' then I'd use it constantly.
Giving orders via game engine is overrated because of in-game chat. It's the fastest, and best.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If I had a thingy that lets me basically say 'hey guys go here and do this' then I'd use it constantly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> How about a head set?
<!--quoteo(post=1895281:date=Jan 17 2012, 06:11 PM:name=Scythe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scythe @ Jan 17 2012, 06:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895281"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I fear that without gameplay effects, pheremones won't be used terribly often. I understand the dilemma: If a pheremone cloud costs something (cooldown, hive energy, team res) that means there could be a situation in which the commander needs to give an order but cannot due to an exhausted resource. I don't see many ways around this, other than having two types of pheremones: Boosted and non-boosted, but this is inelegant.
How about only being able to have one pheremone cloud active at a time? Or one type of cloud? The commander has to make a tradeoff between supporting an attack on a marine-controlled room with an attack cloud, or defending an alien-controlled area with a defend cloud.
--Scythe--<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> With all the huge manpower, incredible mobility (in speed and otherwise), and guerrilla-style potential that the Kharaa have, giving the entire body of them <b>one</b> order at a time seems impractical (and a waste).
<!--quoteo(post=1895284:date=Jan 18 2012, 12:13 AM:name=Melancor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melancor @ Jan 18 2012, 12:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895284"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Giving orders via game engine is overrated because of in-game chat. It's the fastest, and best.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Only if everyone has the names of everywhere on the map memorised.
Including me.
It'd be a lot easier if I didn't have to do that, and could just put a picture on everyone's screen telling them where I want them to go.
I know where I want people to go, I just don't know what it's called all the time, or how to explain to everyone how to get there.
If I can just click on a place where the stuff is, and then everyone gets pointed to that area, it saves me hassle.
<!--quoteo(post=1895288:date=Jan 17 2012, 06:15 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jan 17 2012, 06:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895288"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Only if everyone has the names of everywhere on the map memorised.
Including me.
It'd be a lot easier if I didn't have to do that, and could just put a picture on everyone's screen telling them where I want them to go.
I know where I want people to go, I just don't know what it's called all the time, or how to explain to everyone how to get there.
If I can just click on a place where the stuff is, and then everyone gets pointed to that area, it saves me hassle.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Then play Marines </halfjoking>
It's hard to see how these clouds don't equate to glorified waypoints. I understand the aim to provide asymmetry and agree with it completely (which is partly why I wouldn't have included the A-comm in the first place but hey!). However, I think there are three things to consider:
1) <i>It's not assymetric at all.</i> Attack/defend here, heal this, scout there are commands whichever way you look at them. And they're commands that the M-comm uses as well. The 'expanding here' and 'threat detected' might diverge a little but it's negligible. The only difference is that you have less control because everyone pheromone is seen by the whole team.
2) <i>It's almost pointless.</i> Every pheromone you mentioned can be replaced with one spoken sentence; "everyone attack X", "everyone defend Y", "area Z needs scouting" and so on. In fact, if I choose orate a command I can be more specific and say "skulks attack X", "bill and joe defend Y", "kelly, scout area Z". A pheromone's only advantage is its silence and permanence which are very small advantages. You might as well just have the current M-comm system of being able to select individuals or groups - there's literally no reason not to.
3) <i>It's still not engaging or fun.</i> The rewards of placing pheromones just aren't tangible enough. If we compare it again to M-comming, it equates to me throwing down a waypoint and going "whoopee!" but, as you know, commander satisfaction is derived from manipulating the team to your will, providing support through structures and even directly impacting some combat situations - basically, any task that feels genuinely productive and unique to your role. The waypoint was, and will only ever be, a means towards an ends.
NB: If they do, indeed, get implemented, I would suggest that clouds not be used in the first place. Sadly, this goes against what pheromones actually are but clouds are just annoying. A minimalistic, simple indicator is all that is required to achieve your aims and there seems no need to include visual obscuration.
I would very much like to see the gardening aspect of the Khaara increased, here is what I came up with while reading through this thread and brainstorming a little:
One of the most important features of a garden is variety, especially in a Darwinian point of view variety is important for survival – mono cultures are very vulnerable towards pests. Imagine the humans would come up with a bug that would destroy the infestation, what a disaster. Also variety is a visual indicator with which you identify nature or a garden. => Have different types of cyst, all working as the same network spreading the infestation but with slightly different additional abilities and looks. If you've used Maya for modeling you will know the menu where you click, hold and then select a sub menu by moving the mouse in one direction; just like this you click, place a "cyst brush" and then have three directions to move the mouse for selecting a type of cyst. 1) A cyst with a purple-ish blossom on top that is filled with an almost black dust, very dense. The cyst orientate towards light sources and when triggered by the commander release the dust towards the light sources temporarily dimming the illumination and giving the Khaara entities an advantage (due to alien vision). Might help conquering rooms that are still lit and where skulks have a hard time reaching the power node. Also helps at game start before the power can be cut off.
2) Yellowish cysts that have blossoms full of pollen. Like bees the Khaara entities would collect the pollen and carry it along, leaving a visible trace for a few seconds but also helping spread the infestation without the commander having to place cysts with res (like mini cysts). This wouldn't be temporary or needed to be triggered but the pollen only regenerates slowly on the blossoms so only once a minute a Khaara entity could collect and carry pollen. (This would all happen automatic, the player would not have to do much and the pollen would drop off the first infestation free ground; also interesting for skulks walking on the wall)
3) Green, blue and red colour-shifting blossomed cysts that allow the commander to mark areas with said colours. The cyst could shoot a trail or cloud of smoke in the air nearby, so basically like what was already suggested as a way of passive communication from the commander but restricted to areas with cysts of that type. So it would be wise to have one of those cysts in every room that you "cultivate" with infestation and always near front lines.
Gorges would still only place mini cysts that are solely for connecting infestation, the ability described above is restricted to the commander and "his" garden.
This idea has not been thought through in every detail and will probably have weaknesses I haven't yet realized but I hope it at least inspires further thoughts. Cheers.
<!--quoteo(post=1895291:date=Jan 18 2012, 12:17 AM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Jan 18 2012, 12:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895291"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then play Marines </halfjoking><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heh, I actually would only the trouble with marines is you need to find the buggers in order to give them orders.
Most of the time I just want to say 'hey guys wherever you are this is kind of a useful thing to do, go do it if you aren't doing anything important'.
The trouble is that means I actually have to keep track of what everyone's doing and remember where the ones that aren't doing important things are.
I rely quite heavily on my players having brains, so I generally let them get on with their own thing most of the time, give them info and support where I can, it works pretty well if they can shoot straight, and if they can't shoot straight then yelling at them doesn't seem to do much as they aren't able to follow orders like 'don't die' or 'kill this alien with your gun'.
I've always rather liked the location-centric command system, rather than the unit centric system.
There's a weird little RTS/RPG game called spellforce, and one of the best things about it is you can click on an enemy unit, and all of your squads and heroes and stuff get big bars underneath them which basically just lets you fire their powers at the unit. Rather than clicking through a dozen units to micro all their powers, you just click the thing you want dead, and then click all the ways you want it killed. It works AMAZINGLY well.
For marines, the ability to drop, say, an order beacon, then click the beacon and select squads/marines to assign to that order, with a little list of all the squads/marines and where they are/what they're doing, that'd be quite nice, and it'd save me hunting around the map for spare marines.
<!--quoteo(post=1895246:date=Jan 18 2012, 10:06 AM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Jan 18 2012, 10:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895246"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You are in the wrong thread Kabab.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah not really...
Think about this entire pheromone idea to begin with it naturally fits better on a class then it does the commander to being with, for example the heal spray on a gorge is pretty much a pheromone..
Doesn't make sense for a class like the gorge which usually hangs back at base building or is out in some far corner of the map building defences to have some kind of pheromone ability in order to direct help his way given that he is in first person making a way- point would be cumbersome...
This alien commander business is like trying to plug a round hole with a square peg.
We have the gorge he has the potiential to be awesome let's make that happen..
This entire gardener concept is great but don't you feel more like a gardener when spitting hydra's in crazy places as opposed to placing structures in the mechanical fashion the alien com does?
I think the commander does need to be more of a gardener. Needs to have more of a feel like the a.i. co.trollers in games like left4dead etc. The varied pheremone idea can work - placing the pheremones needs to feel very natural I think. Maybe a gas you drag around? Maybe cysts change colour and release the gas? it would give cysts more of a purpose and would make sense as they are linked to the hive via infestation.
I do like the sound of "spells" such as entanglement and temporart structures that pop up from the ground (cooldown?) it would give the marines a real sense of danger when walking on infestation and would encourage a 'i dont want to go there without my team' feeling. If the commander had and real defensive 'spells' they would need to be very costly and for emergency situations in order to encourage natural growth of the alien base
<b>Stop.</b> You need to reexamine your fundamental premises. Why do we need an Alien Commander? What problem does the Alien Commander solve? How does an Alien Commander contribute to the enjoyment of the game?
<b>The Alien Commander you propose requires voluntary player cooperation to be effective - but if there is already player cooperation, there is no need for an Alien Commander.</b>
You seem to be attached to the idea of having the Alien Commander serve in some sort of command and control role, but the fact is it's largely superfluous when any player can check their minimap for information and report to the rest of the team with what is going on. Given the choice between having one player do nothing besides communicate to the rest of the team and player on the field doing actual ###### and still able to talk to the rest of his team, I know I'd take the extra body. What exactly does the Alien Commander get, besides some spray paint? Why would any player listen to the Alien Commander's signposts over the bullhorn of other players? Or to put it in the way your average player might think, what makes the Alien Commander so goddamn special that I should follow his orders instead of doing as I please? If you play an FPS and try to tell other players what to do, the typical response ranges from a complete lack of acknowledgement to "shut up ######"
The only real way I see to make the Alien Commander an essential role would be to deliberately cripple information sharing and communication between players so that the Alien Commander becomes an necessary central authority to coordinate the team. Which is easily bypassed with 3rd party voice communication software (Ventrillo, Teamspeak, Mumble, etc). Even supposing it were possible, I think it very unwise to have the outcome of a game hinge upon a single player and a fundamentally unsound idea. If anything, this sort of signaling ability should be available to every player.
Let's be honest here - players are idiots. I don't know how long it's been since you played, but trying to command anywhere from 5 to 16 strangers is like trying to herd cats. Dumb, deaf, and blind cats. And that's was when the Commander had the power to reward cooperative players and snub ones that weren't. He could drop structures, resupply health, recall the entire team to spawn - he could actually produce a tangible effect. But the Alien Commander you're proposing now has nothing. Even if the rest of the team is perfectly cooperative, does the benefit from the average Alien Commander managing the team instead of players managing themselves outweigh having another player on the field? I don't think so.
Since I recall you liking TF2, I suggest you take a page from their book and incentivize player cooperation (Eg Medic heals other players, Pyros defend Engineers from spies, Scouts cover Demos, etc) as others have suggested. I'm not too big of a fan of designing FPSes such that the outcome of a conflict depends almost entirely on unit composition and numbers, but it beats having a player literally do nothing but sit there and tell others what to do.
Players are actually quite smart, if you give them the right information.
Much like herding cats, (cats are also quite smart in very specific ways) you just need to find the right incentive.
For example, saying 'go here and do this because I told you so' is not likely to get the right response, but saying 'go here and KILL SOME BAD GUYS because IT WILL BE AWESOME and also I need you to do it' will probably work quite well.
So if your pheromone clouds serve as an effective means of conveying information, which I think they would, they are an effective means of commanding people. In the sense that you can give them information which you know will cause them to make a specific decision which is the decision you want them to make.
I basically agree with Chris; what I saw of the pheromones in earlier versions when they were greyed out in the menu suggested they'd indeed be sort of universal waypoints, which made me think of all the inconveniences for the marine comm in finding someone nearby and currently suitable for each task, and how much better it'd be if I could just have anyone nearby who check it out themselves.
So I'd happily trade side asymmetry for function in this case.
The alien commander can select a resource tower and set it to strengthen mode : -100% Resource production from that tower +75% Damage resistance to MG/Shotgun +50% Damage resistance to explosives +25% Damage resistance to knife
Allows the commander to give an RT under attack more time to be rescued by aliens, pointless if no aliens are on the way since it stops the production. Ability can be turned on/off with a single click. The structure could lower itself, as if it was trying to get into the fetal position, so the marines know it's in defense mode.
The key thing here is that players respond to orders only if they are selfless and team-spirited, but every selfish sod in the world will respond to an opportunity.
If you can drop a marker that says 'free points here' then everyone on your team will go and check it out.
It would encourage Alien to actually listen to what the Commander is trying to do. This Expanding here pheromone could i.E. buff building speed slightly so getting some hive Defense up for an unbuilt hive wont take forever. Tho not all pheromones should be displayed to all Lifeforms, as Skulks usually don`t care much about a Crag in need of Healing. and too many could cause a lot of confusion as not anyone is watching the minimap.
slightly off topic
Make Drifter do some more then just poof, when pressing flare, give em some more stuff like that, based on Tech you chose. Or just make it researchable like Flare.
Something like:
Crag Tech Drifter: If you manage to launch one in the contested Area it leaves a Umbra/Heal cloud pumping defense of Aliens in that Area. Shade Tech Drifter: Launching those could trigger utter Darkness for a few Seconds, and disable Marine Communications for a few moments(like a total blackout). Movement Tech Drifter: Launching on of those boosts adrenaline reg and movement speed for a few seconds.
This would give a lot more meaning to hive energy in mid - late game and give some crucial abilities to the Alien comm as those can really turn the Battle. Drifter should still have a trigger time for all of those abilities so Marines could still shoot em.
Those Drifters could somewhat rally to the pheromones on the map, Crag drifters would respond to Healing needed calls, or Defend here. Shade Drifter could respond to the Threat detected Pheromone to give some extra time and an Edge when Marines storm in.
In regard to pheromones, i feel they should be purely communicative and mostly automated when interacting with players, not change player vision or provide buffs. Having pheromones changing your vision beyond your control is a bad bad thing, and granting temporary buffs beyond simple energy regen just adds mandatory actions that are predictable, expected and yet unintuitive to both sides. "oh what a bad alien comm, we assaulted the marine base but he didnt drop a red cloud. wait i mean the green cloud! Or was it the purple one that boosted attack..." etcetc. I dont think this kind of direct incentive fosters the characteristic decentralized decision making aliens have.
Aside from the much needed indirect comunication system Flayra outlined, if we're talking about the role of the alien comm as the macro gardener then infestation is really the key conduit through which the player interacts with the game environment. I would love to see pheromones tied into a dynamic and organic system of infestation growth so that it felt like a creature all of its own (instead of simply placing cysts in range of each other). For example the ability to set a general direction/speed of infestation with pheromones (faster = lower surface area so on) or even the ability to mould basic temporary infestation structures. That said, i dont see why the gorge can't do this and agree with previous posters who have pointed out the choice between RTS vs RTS and NS1 style.
Perhaps the ability to place pheromones which attract insects/babblers that live within the infestation to swarm to a point and attack/annoy marines (burnable with flamethrowers?) so you get a greater feeling of territorial control and the sense that the infestation is alive. I'm sure someone has suggested this before. Also might be interesting if instead of chambers providing their respective abilities directly e.g. umbra/heal, they cause the surrounding infestation to emit the effect instead so that infestation management/gardening becomes an active concern. Might be a way to balance shade cloak.
In regard to the topic question, one thing i would love to have as an alien comm is just the ability to scout with an AI unit. Drifters are just way too flimsy and valuable to do this.. Or perhaps a 'hive memory' where structures/units seen by players appear in the fog of war like your typical RTS. yes please :).
Oh, and allow drifters the ability to die and spawn eggs! yes yes.
You guys need to just stop with the suggestions of removing the alien comm. That ship has sailed. The advantages and disadvantages are well documented, we've had this argument a thousand times and the decision was made long ago. All you're doing is decreasing the signal to noise ratio of this thread.
Cool topic. The way I'll brainstorm ideas for it is by making analogies to Starcraft 2 and Team Fortress 2 (the only similar games that come to mind).
- Remove the natural slowdown applied to marines walking on infestation. ->Then make aliens move faster on infestation OR make an ability of the commander/cysts that creates speed changes in an area (could be a pheromone that applies to aliens or to marines, or both)
People complain about infestation having slowdown, and it doesn't feel quite right to me either. This gives the aliens a new way to achieve the same thing in a less predictable way, which means more options for trickery.
- Something based on sound rather than visuals.
It seems obvious to make the pheromones recognizable by visual clouds (like lerk spores) but that will get really messy really fast. This game is also somewhat lacking in 'sound interactivity' for the player, although some of that is due to undeveloped parts of the engine. One of my favourite things is when I'm near death and everything gets quieter, simulating a 'near death experience' - it would be a horrible cliche in a Call of Duty game, but in NS2 it adds to the immersiveness and the tactical flow of combat.
Deafening marines (or making things super loud) could be really fun and useful, without being 'simple' and ending up a staple (part of a 'build order' like getting armor #1 etc). The hallucination grenades in the old TF games were pretty bad, but in a game like NS that same idea (conjuring fake bombs/fire/bullet impacts) could be very effective.
- AOE spell applied to marines/structures in an area, giving a timed effect (for instance, increased damage taken) like Jarate in TF2.
- If there is ever something analogous to "movement chambers" (adding celerity, adrenaline sources and so on), you could add alien commander spells that rely on mechanical things like "conjuring wind" (to shove grenades/fire around, help lerks and bother jetpackers). -> Would be probably good to tie the pheromones to the hive types to keep things simple in that regard (but this is debatable/testable of course)
- Things that related to the 'hivemind' (add shared UI notices, sounds etc). Something that operates similarly to the observatory scan (but with an alien slant to it) might be neat.
Another thing to keep in mind is skill-indexing. One of the reasons Jarate is such a "dumbed down" item in TF2 is that it's extremely easy to use, and you almost always use it the exact same way. In NS2 (currently) medpacks are reasonably hard to aim, and I don't think new alien commander spells should be any easier to use. Haphazardly tossing a gigantic cloud with a weak area effect would be fun the first 5 times you do it, but it wouldn't scale well into the long term.
Also, I haven't read the whole thread, but is part of this going to be "flamethrower burns down pheromone clouds"? That would be cool as well. I like how the flamethrower works as a utility/support weapon, and I think it's important to keep tying new game mechanics to the existing ones. You can make the game grow quite a bit without adding a lot of new features.
<!--quoteo(post=1895307:date=Jan 17 2012, 04:44 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jan 17 2012, 04:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895307"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Players are actually quite smart, if you give them the right information.
Much like herding cats, (cats are also quite smart in very specific ways) you just need to find the right incentive.
For example, saying 'go here and do this because I told you so' is not likely to get the right response, but saying 'go here and KILL SOME BAD GUYS because IT WILL BE AWESOME and also I need you to do it' will probably work quite well.
So if your pheromone clouds serve as an effective means of conveying information, which I think they would, they are an effective means of commanding people. In the sense that you can give them information which you know will cause them to make a specific decision which is the decision you want them to make.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> In all my years of experience, <a href="http://alienwaypoints.ytmnd.com/" target="_blank">this</a> closely mirrors what I think is the most typical outcome when the commander tries to get his team to work together. (Warning volume, swearing etc, thanks to Veritas for making it)
Why is this veritas guy a celebrity now? Is it just because he made that one video where he swears and acts like a little kid?
I find it funny that someone poking fun at "casuals" is deeply concerned by mechanics that require player cooperation (and can therefore go wrong in casual games). Normally, a competitive player prefers to have things like that to differentiate good players/teams from bad ones. I'm confused but I don't want to derail the thread any harder...
Pheremones are inescapably and uniquely used to indentify and track. I think it would be hard for NS to use something called pheremones outside of such uses... unless ofcourse there's something else I don't know about pheremones.
That said, an implementation that is both balanced and fun is hard to come by through brainstorming, so I'll just focus on "What would be fun for the alien commander".
And, I like the idea of the alien commander helping his/her minions kill their foes, not through direct combat, by by aiding them in the hunt itself. Because the cysts already provide a sensor for detecting and tracking marines, anything in addition to this must be useful outside of the cyst network.
That said, I would sugest some kind of gas that the alien commander can place on the map, much like the observatory scanner. However, rather than directly revealing players for a short period of time, the pheremone gas would spread out and 'paint' any players for an extended period of time; allowing the alien commander to detect incoming threats and guide his/her minions to the banquet, or assist them by essentially parasiting a whole group of marines, even in their own base, which skulks and other aliens can then use to set up more advanced ambushes and assaults.
Edit: An example would be an assault on a group of entrenched marines. Before a group strike, the alien commander pours the pheremones in to the room, which creates a slightly blurred fog (some visual distortion but not really that much), then all the marines and their positions are known and the aliens rush in. The effect of pheremones could induce panic in the marines, as I'm sure they would soon associate such pheremones with sudden and painful death.
Another use could be identifying incoming threats, 4 marines with shotguns assaulting the hive, a quick puff of the pheremone gas and the marines would be slightly easier to locate and eliminate.
<!--quoteo(post=1895301:date=Jan 17 2012, 07:31 PM:name=Underwhelmed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Underwhelmed @ Jan 17 2012, 07:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895301"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why do we need an Alien Commander? What problem does the Alien Commander solve? How does an Alien Commander contribute to the enjoyment of the game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The alien commander is an essential addition required for the proper balance of the game, as a whole, regardless of player on the server. The rest of your post just basically says "There isn't anything for the alien commander to do" which, at this point, is absolutely correct but that's kind of what this thread is about.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The alien commander's role is that of "cosmic gardener", one where he is dreamily playing with the environment to do powerful, slimy things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like where that idea is going but we'd need a massive list of environment interactions in order to make the alien commander feel necessary and useful. I also think there may be a spot for some clever NPC usage. I think it would also be neat if technology countered technology rather than boosts to an individual's players stats (which I'm very against).
Some quick examples:
- Infestation canals / tunnels. I know UWE had this idea before -- not sure if it was scrapped. Basically, linking two infested areas together for faster travel. These tunnels would be dynamic in that no two would ever be the same and the commander would create them. They wouldn't have to be a physical tunnel, perhaps a 'phase gate' that requires a longer 'teleportation time' based on the distance the player is traveling?
- NPCs. I'm sure they're not easy to develop. One of the worst things a game can have is a crappy and hard to control NPC. That said here's a quick example; an NPC which would look like aliens, set off motion tracking, and probably take less damage. Basically an illusion.
- Control of 'creep strength.' No idea how this would be pulled off -- but if creep spread over a window, door, whatever, the commander could select the creep over that location and destroy what was under it. For example, if any maps are still in space a broken window would send the people in the room flying out to their death. Perhaps other units counter, like heavy armor, could withstand the attack.
- Abilities from a hive/chamber. Example; spend X resources and make select unit invisible to motion tracking/scans. Imagine if the commander cloaked the real army from motion tracking up one side and bunch of fake NPCs up the other. Also, maybe some kind of ability that blocks the siege tank from shooting through a wall for a certain amount of time?
If these ideas sucks I'm sure there are better ones out there, but in short, abilities should counter the enemy technology or open up the game to a different playstyle (ie; mobile hit and runs vs slowly pushing up with a tank) and shouldn't boost player performance.
I haven't read the whole thread, but in response to removing the Alien Comm, restoring the gorge to his former glory, and the "gardener" feel:
What if we merged the gorge and the alien commander? Instead of entering the hive, players could evolve to gorge at a limit of one per hive. The gorge could place all structures in first-person or become an egg to enter the third person commander view to handle upgrades, pheromones, drifters, etc. I think it could help with asymmetry, while not actually removing the commander role from the aliens.
<!--quoteo(post=1895332:date=Jan 18 2012, 12:45 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Jan 18 2012, 12:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895332"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The alien commander is an essential addition required for the proper balance of the game, as a whole, regardless of player on the server. The rest of your post just basically says "There isn't anything for the alien commander to do" which, at this point, is absolutely correct but that's kind of what this thread is about.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS1 was had very good balance so its not imposable..
<!--quoteo(post=1895317:date=Jan 18 2012, 12:05 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Jan 18 2012, 12:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895317"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You guys need to just stop with the suggestions of removing the alien comm. That ship has sailed. The advantages and disadvantages are well documented, we've had this argument a thousand times and the decision was made long ago. All you're doing is decreasing the signal to noise ratio of this thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why removing the alien com and moving the abilities to the gorge would not be a lot of work if it sucks you can always go back it would be shear ignorance to not at least try it once while NS2 is still in beta and see the feedback of players hell we might even see full servers :) You can always roll back we are not cutting someone's arm off..
Alien commander is a big mistake and I think its only still around because flayra has some kind of emotional attachment to the concept....
Marine commander works due to a few factors, he controls all the building placement and has the ability to upgrade he has the ability to heal/resupply/beacon etc the marines and the way marines "evolve" (weapon drops)...
All the alien commander does now is control a tech tree which is zzzzzzzz a complete a waste of a player unless you give him all the same tools as the marine commander (which is impossible due to the way marines and aliens evolve/get weapons) the alien commander will always feel underwhelming..
The flip side is if you give him close to everything the marine com gets the game becomes far to symmetrical looses what made it special in the first place...
<!--quoteo(post=1895279:date=Jan 18 2012, 08:10 AM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Jan 18 2012, 08:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895279"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm with Zek on this one, to some degree. Asymmetrical gameplay is a fun concept, but the implementation of the Kham is <i>a lot</i> like the Com's. They both have top-down view of their controlled territory, are responsible for alerting and directing their players to fit a strategic plan (usually their plan), and are the main controllers of where their territory expands and what structures occupy it.
If that sounds a lot like a basic description of an RTS game, it's because (asymmetrical gameplay goals aside) both teams are led by a RTS-styled leader. Other things that leaders need to be able to do are give orders, and lead development in chosen directions (via research).
I think that UWE needs to pick between an RTS vs RTS model and an asymmetrical alien gardener vs technological commander model. Nothing concrete on that, just my two cents.
I'd love to see Kham with the ability to enter an avatar (physical or otherwise) to control exactly where it places structures that don't require a drifter to build, but at the same time, it seems like we're just finding new, RTS-ier ways to implement the old GorgeCom system. I'd also be okay with seeing the Kham become a infected counterpart to the Com; it wouldn't be as interesting or "new", but making the game fun is more important than making it edgy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Kham = Kharaa Comm?
Heh. I like it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Been hearing it around the forums. I've been using Kharaa Com for a while now, but I finally decided to hop on the bandwagon and stop wasting 7 keys every time. Plus, its homophonic status is either a satire or a testament to the current symmetric nature of NS2's command structure, depending on your camp.
It would be cool if you could just put out clouds of stuff from the cysts to buff your allies or something.
Like specialty pheremones that trigger adrenaline, or maybe make healing more beneficial--
and then regular pheremones that are used just as cloud orders (ie. something harmful is happeneng, something needs help, something needs to be attacked)
Fuzzy logic stuff. None of this MOVE HERE. or ATTACK THIS. More like, OH MY GOD THIS GENERAL REGION.
Comments
I fear that without gameplay effects, pheremones won't be used terribly often. I understand the dilemma: If a pheremone cloud costs something (cooldown, hive energy, team res) that means there could be a situation in which the commander needs to give an order but cannot due to an exhausted resource. I don't see many ways around this, other than having two types of pheremones: Boosted and non-boosted, but this is inelegant.
How about only being able to have one pheremone cloud active at a time? Or one type of cloud? The commander has to make a tradeoff between supporting an attack on a marine-controlled room with an attack cloud, or defending an alien-controlled area with a defend cloud.
--Scythe--
For examples (just as concept numbers are placeholders):
Scent of Fear -> Every marine player on the map is visible through walls for 10 seconds
Infestation boost -> Celerity, Silence
Pheromones
et cetera.
The Alien commander could help his team in action, the player does not ultimately have to do something special.
It would act like the nanoshield ability, just not a single but a mass action.
I don't really see why, half the problem I have when telling people where to go is that I want to say 'go here' and point, only I can't, because it's the internet.
If I had a thingy that lets me basically say 'hey guys go here and do this' then I'd use it constantly.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If I had a thingy that lets me basically say 'hey guys go here and do this' then I'd use it constantly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How about a head set?
How about only being able to have one pheremone cloud active at a time? Or one type of cloud? The commander has to make a tradeoff between supporting an attack on a marine-controlled room with an attack cloud, or defending an alien-controlled area with a defend cloud.
--Scythe--<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
With all the huge manpower, incredible mobility (in speed and otherwise), and guerrilla-style potential that the Kharaa have, giving the entire body of them <b>one</b> order at a time seems impractical (and a waste).
Only if everyone has the names of everywhere on the map memorised.
Including me.
It'd be a lot easier if I didn't have to do that, and could just put a picture on everyone's screen telling them where I want them to go.
I know where I want people to go, I just don't know what it's called all the time, or how to explain to everyone how to get there.
If I can just click on a place where the stuff is, and then everyone gets pointed to that area, it saves me hassle.
Including me.
It'd be a lot easier if I didn't have to do that, and could just put a picture on everyone's screen telling them where I want them to go.
I know where I want people to go, I just don't know what it's called all the time, or how to explain to everyone how to get there.
If I can just click on a place where the stuff is, and then everyone gets pointed to that area, it saves me hassle.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then play Marines
</halfjoking>
1) <i>It's not assymetric at all.</i> Attack/defend here, heal this, scout there are commands whichever way you look at them. And they're commands that the M-comm uses as well. The 'expanding here' and 'threat detected' might diverge a little but it's negligible. The only difference is that you have less control because everyone pheromone is seen by the whole team.
2) <i>It's almost pointless.</i> Every pheromone you mentioned can be replaced with one spoken sentence; "everyone attack X", "everyone defend Y", "area Z needs scouting" and so on. In fact, if I choose orate a command I can be more specific and say "skulks attack X", "bill and joe defend Y", "kelly, scout area Z". A pheromone's only advantage is its silence and permanence which are very small advantages. You might as well just have the current M-comm system of being able to select individuals or groups - there's literally no reason not to.
3) <i>It's still not engaging or fun.</i> The rewards of placing pheromones just aren't tangible enough. If we compare it again to M-comming, it equates to me throwing down a waypoint and going "whoopee!" but, as you know, commander satisfaction is derived from manipulating the team to your will, providing support through structures and even directly impacting some combat situations - basically, any task that feels genuinely productive and unique to your role. The waypoint was, and will only ever be, a means towards an ends.
NB: If they do, indeed, get implemented, I would suggest that clouds not be used in the first place. Sadly, this goes against what pheromones actually are but clouds are just annoying. A minimalistic, simple indicator is all that is required to achieve your aims and there seems no need to include visual obscuration.
One of the most important features of a garden is variety, especially in a Darwinian point of view variety is important for survival – mono cultures are very vulnerable towards pests. Imagine the humans would come up with a bug that would destroy the infestation, what a disaster. Also variety is a visual indicator with which you identify nature or a garden.
=> Have different types of cyst, all working as the same network spreading the infestation but with slightly different additional abilities and looks. If you've used Maya for modeling you will know the menu where you click, hold and then select a sub menu by moving the mouse in one direction; just like this you click, place a "cyst brush" and then have three directions to move the mouse for selecting a type of cyst.
1) A cyst with a purple-ish blossom on top that is filled with an almost black dust, very dense. The cyst orientate towards light sources and when triggered by the commander release the dust towards the light sources temporarily dimming the illumination and giving the Khaara entities an advantage (due to alien vision). Might help conquering rooms that are still lit and where skulks have a hard time reaching the power node. Also helps at game start before the power can be cut off.
2) Yellowish cysts that have blossoms full of pollen. Like bees the Khaara entities would collect the pollen and carry it along, leaving a visible trace for a few seconds but also helping spread the infestation without the commander having to place cysts with res (like mini cysts). This wouldn't be temporary or needed to be triggered but the pollen only regenerates slowly on the blossoms so only once a minute a Khaara entity could collect and carry pollen. (This would all happen automatic, the player would not have to do much and the pollen would drop off the first infestation free ground; also interesting for skulks walking on the wall)
3) Green, blue and red colour-shifting blossomed cysts that allow the commander to mark areas with said colours. The cyst could shoot a trail or cloud of smoke in the air nearby, so basically like what was already suggested as a way of passive communication from the commander but restricted to areas with cysts of that type. So it would be wise to have one of those cysts in every room that you "cultivate" with infestation and always near front lines.
Gorges would still only place mini cysts that are solely for connecting infestation, the ability described above is restricted to the commander and "his" garden.
This idea has not been thought through in every detail and will probably have weaknesses I haven't yet realized but I hope it at least inspires further thoughts.
Cheers.
</halfjoking><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heh, I actually would only the trouble with marines is you need to find the buggers in order to give them orders.
Most of the time I just want to say 'hey guys wherever you are this is kind of a useful thing to do, go do it if you aren't doing anything important'.
The trouble is that means I actually have to keep track of what everyone's doing and remember where the ones that aren't doing important things are.
I rely quite heavily on my players having brains, so I generally let them get on with their own thing most of the time, give them info and support where I can, it works pretty well if they can shoot straight, and if they can't shoot straight then yelling at them doesn't seem to do much as they aren't able to follow orders like 'don't die' or 'kill this alien with your gun'.
I've always rather liked the location-centric command system, rather than the unit centric system.
There's a weird little RTS/RPG game called spellforce, and one of the best things about it is you can click on an enemy unit, and all of your squads and heroes and stuff get big bars underneath them which basically just lets you fire their powers at the unit. Rather than clicking through a dozen units to micro all their powers, you just click the thing you want dead, and then click all the ways you want it killed. It works AMAZINGLY well.
For marines, the ability to drop, say, an order beacon, then click the beacon and select squads/marines to assign to that order, with a little list of all the squads/marines and where they are/what they're doing, that'd be quite nice, and it'd save me hunting around the map for spare marines.
Yeah not really...
Think about this entire pheromone idea to begin with it naturally fits better on a class then it does the commander to being with, for example the heal spray on a gorge is pretty much a pheromone..
Doesn't make sense for a class like the gorge which usually hangs back at base building or is out in some far corner of the map building defences to have some kind of pheromone ability in order to direct help his way given that he is in first person making a way- point would be cumbersome...
This alien commander business is like trying to plug a round hole with a square peg.
We have the gorge he has the potiential to be awesome let's make that happen..
This entire gardener concept is great but don't you feel more like a gardener when spitting hydra's in crazy places as opposed to placing structures in the mechanical fashion the alien com does?
I do like the sound of "spells" such as entanglement and temporart structures that pop up from the ground (cooldown?) it would give the marines a real sense of danger when walking on infestation and would encourage a 'i dont want to go there without my team' feeling.
If the commander had and real defensive 'spells' they would need to be very costly and for emergency situations in order to encourage natural growth of the alien base
<b>The Alien Commander you propose requires voluntary player cooperation to be effective - but if there is already player cooperation, there is no need for an Alien Commander.</b>
You seem to be attached to the idea of having the Alien Commander serve in some sort of command and control role, but the fact is it's largely superfluous when any player can check their minimap for information and report to the rest of the team with what is going on. Given the choice between having one player do nothing besides communicate to the rest of the team and player on the field doing actual ###### and still able to talk to the rest of his team, I know I'd take the extra body. What exactly does the Alien Commander get, besides some spray paint? Why would any player listen to the Alien Commander's signposts over the bullhorn of other players? Or to put it in the way your average player might think, what makes the Alien Commander so goddamn special that I should follow his orders instead of doing as I please? If you play an FPS and try to tell other players what to do, the typical response ranges from a complete lack of acknowledgement to "shut up ######"
The only real way I see to make the Alien Commander an essential role would be to deliberately cripple information sharing and communication between players so that the Alien Commander becomes an necessary central authority to coordinate the team. Which is easily bypassed with 3rd party voice communication software (Ventrillo, Teamspeak, Mumble, etc). Even supposing it were possible, I think it very unwise to have the outcome of a game hinge upon a single player and a fundamentally unsound idea. If anything, this sort of signaling ability should be available to every player.
Let's be honest here - players are idiots. I don't know how long it's been since you played, but trying to command anywhere from 5 to 16 strangers is like trying to herd cats. Dumb, deaf, and blind cats. And that's was when the Commander had the power to reward cooperative players and snub ones that weren't. He could drop structures, resupply health, recall the entire team to spawn - he could actually produce a tangible effect. But the Alien Commander you're proposing now has nothing. Even if the rest of the team is perfectly cooperative, does the benefit from the average Alien Commander managing the team instead of players managing themselves outweigh having another player on the field? I don't think so.
Since I recall you liking TF2, I suggest you take a page from their book and incentivize player cooperation (Eg Medic heals other players, Pyros defend Engineers from spies, Scouts cover Demos, etc) as others have suggested. I'm not too big of a fan of designing FPSes such that the outcome of a conflict depends almost entirely on unit composition and numbers, but it beats having a player literally do nothing but sit there and tell others what to do.
Much like herding cats, (cats are also quite smart in very specific ways) you just need to find the right incentive.
For example, saying 'go here and do this because I told you so' is not likely to get the right response, but saying 'go here and KILL SOME BAD GUYS because IT WILL BE AWESOME and also I need you to do it' will probably work quite well.
So if your pheromone clouds serve as an effective means of conveying information, which I think they would, they are an effective means of commanding people. In the sense that you can give them information which you know will cause them to make a specific decision which is the decision you want them to make.
So I'd happily trade side asymmetry for function in this case.
-100% Resource production from that tower
+75% Damage resistance to MG/Shotgun
+50% Damage resistance to explosives
+25% Damage resistance to knife
Allows the commander to give an RT under attack more time to be rescued by aliens, pointless if no aliens are on the way since it stops the production. Ability can be turned on/off with a single click. The structure could lower itself, as if it was trying to get into the fetal position, so the marines know it's in defense mode.
If you can drop a marker that says 'free points here' then everyone on your team will go and check it out.
It would encourage Alien to actually listen to what the Commander is trying to do. This Expanding here pheromone could i.E. buff building speed slightly so getting some hive Defense up for an unbuilt hive wont take forever. Tho not all pheromones should be displayed to all Lifeforms, as Skulks usually don`t care much about a Crag in need of Healing. and too many could cause a lot of confusion as not anyone is watching the minimap.
slightly off topic
Make Drifter do some more then just poof, when pressing flare, give em some more stuff like that, based on Tech you chose. Or just make it researchable like Flare.
Something like:
Crag Tech Drifter: If you manage to launch one in the contested Area it leaves a Umbra/Heal cloud pumping defense of Aliens in that Area.
Shade Tech Drifter: Launching those could trigger utter Darkness for a few Seconds, and disable Marine Communications for a few moments(like a total blackout).
Movement Tech Drifter: Launching on of those boosts adrenaline reg and movement speed for a few seconds.
This would give a lot more meaning to hive energy in mid - late game and give some crucial abilities to the Alien comm as those can really turn the Battle. Drifter should still have a trigger time for all of those abilities so Marines could still shoot em.
Those Drifters could somewhat rally to the pheromones on the map, Crag drifters would respond to Healing needed calls, or Defend here. Shade Drifter could respond to the Threat detected Pheromone to give some extra time and an Edge when Marines storm in.
Aside from the much needed indirect comunication system Flayra outlined, if we're talking about the role of the alien comm as the macro gardener then infestation is really the key conduit through which the player interacts with the game environment. I would love to see pheromones tied into a dynamic and organic system of infestation growth so that it felt like a creature all of its own (instead of simply placing cysts in range of each other). For example the ability to set a general direction/speed of infestation with pheromones (faster = lower surface area so on) or even the ability to mould basic temporary infestation structures. That said, i dont see why the gorge can't do this and agree with previous posters who have pointed out the choice between RTS vs RTS and NS1 style.
Perhaps the ability to place pheromones which attract insects/babblers that live within the infestation to swarm to a point and attack/annoy marines (burnable with flamethrowers?) so you get a greater feeling of territorial control and the sense that the infestation is alive. I'm sure someone has suggested this before. Also might be interesting if instead of chambers providing their respective abilities directly e.g. umbra/heal, they cause the surrounding infestation to emit the effect instead so that infestation management/gardening becomes an active concern. Might be a way to balance shade cloak.
In regard to the topic question, one thing i would love to have as an alien comm is just the ability to scout with an AI unit. Drifters are just way too flimsy and valuable to do this.. Or perhaps a 'hive memory' where structures/units seen by players appear in the fog of war like your typical RTS. yes please :).
Oh, and allow drifters the ability to die and spawn eggs! yes yes.
- Remove the natural slowdown applied to marines walking on infestation.
->Then make aliens move faster on infestation OR make an ability of the commander/cysts that creates speed changes in an area (could be a pheromone that applies to aliens or to marines, or both)
People complain about infestation having slowdown, and it doesn't feel quite right to me either. This gives the aliens a new way to achieve the same thing in a less predictable way, which means more options for trickery.
- Something based on sound rather than visuals.
It seems obvious to make the pheromones recognizable by visual clouds (like lerk spores) but that will get really messy really fast. This game is also somewhat lacking in 'sound interactivity' for the player, although some of that is due to undeveloped parts of the engine. One of my favourite things is when I'm near death and everything gets quieter, simulating a 'near death experience' - it would be a horrible cliche in a Call of Duty game, but in NS2 it adds to the immersiveness and the tactical flow of combat.
Deafening marines (or making things super loud) could be really fun and useful, without being 'simple' and ending up a staple (part of a 'build order' like getting armor #1 etc). The hallucination grenades in the old TF games were pretty bad, but in a game like NS that same idea (conjuring fake bombs/fire/bullet impacts) could be very effective.
- AOE spell applied to marines/structures in an area, giving a timed effect (for instance, increased damage taken) like Jarate in TF2.
- If there is ever something analogous to "movement chambers" (adding celerity, adrenaline sources and so on), you could add alien commander spells that rely on mechanical things like "conjuring wind" (to shove grenades/fire around, help lerks and bother jetpackers).
-> Would be probably good to tie the pheromones to the hive types to keep things simple in that regard (but this is debatable/testable of course)
- Things that related to the 'hivemind' (add shared UI notices, sounds etc). Something that operates similarly to the observatory scan (but with an alien slant to it) might be neat.
Another thing to keep in mind is skill-indexing. One of the reasons Jarate is such a "dumbed down" item in TF2 is that it's extremely easy to use, and you almost always use it the exact same way. In NS2 (currently) medpacks are reasonably hard to aim, and I don't think new alien commander spells should be any easier to use. Haphazardly tossing a gigantic cloud with a weak area effect would be fun the first 5 times you do it, but it wouldn't scale well into the long term.
Also, I haven't read the whole thread, but is part of this going to be "flamethrower burns down pheromone clouds"? That would be cool as well. I like how the flamethrower works as a utility/support weapon, and I think it's important to keep tying new game mechanics to the existing ones. You can make the game grow quite a bit without adding a lot of new features.
Good luck with this!
Much like herding cats, (cats are also quite smart in very specific ways) you just need to find the right incentive.
For example, saying 'go here and do this because I told you so' is not likely to get the right response, but saying 'go here and KILL SOME BAD GUYS because IT WILL BE AWESOME and also I need you to do it' will probably work quite well.
So if your pheromone clouds serve as an effective means of conveying information, which I think they would, they are an effective means of commanding people. In the sense that you can give them information which you know will cause them to make a specific decision which is the decision you want them to make.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In all my years of experience, <a href="http://alienwaypoints.ytmnd.com/" target="_blank">this</a> closely mirrors what I think is the most typical outcome when the commander tries to get his team to work together. (Warning volume, swearing etc, thanks to Veritas for making it)
I find it funny that someone poking fun at "casuals" is deeply concerned by mechanics that require player cooperation (and can therefore go wrong in casual games). Normally, a competitive player prefers to have things like that to differentiate good players/teams from bad ones. I'm confused but I don't want to derail the thread any harder...
That said, an implementation that is both balanced and fun is hard to come by through brainstorming, so I'll just focus on "What would be fun for the alien commander".
And, I like the idea of the alien commander helping his/her minions kill their foes, not through direct combat, by by aiding them in the hunt itself. Because the cysts already provide a sensor for detecting and tracking marines, anything in addition to this must be useful outside of the cyst network.
That said, I would sugest some kind of gas that the alien commander can place on the map, much like the observatory scanner. However, rather than directly revealing players for a short period of time, the pheremone gas would spread out and 'paint' any players for an extended period of time; allowing the alien commander to detect incoming threats and guide his/her minions to the banquet, or assist them by essentially parasiting a whole group of marines, even in their own base, which skulks and other aliens can then use to set up more advanced ambushes and assaults.
Edit:
An example would be an assault on a group of entrenched marines. Before a group strike, the alien commander pours the pheremones in to the room, which creates a slightly blurred fog (some visual distortion but not really that much), then all the marines and their positions are known and the aliens rush in. The effect of pheremones could induce panic in the marines, as I'm sure they would soon associate such pheremones with sudden and painful death.
Another use could be identifying incoming threats, 4 marines with shotguns assaulting the hive, a quick puff of the pheremone gas and the marines would be slightly easier to locate and eliminate.
The alien commander is an essential addition required for the proper balance of the game, as a whole, regardless of player on the server. The rest of your post just basically says "There isn't anything for the alien commander to do" which, at this point, is absolutely correct but that's kind of what this thread is about.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The alien commander's role is that of "cosmic gardener", one where he is dreamily playing with the environment to do powerful, slimy things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like where that idea is going but we'd need a massive list of environment interactions in order to make the alien commander feel necessary and useful. I also think there may be a spot for some clever NPC usage. I think it would also be neat if technology countered technology rather than boosts to an individual's players stats (which I'm very against).
Some quick examples:
- Infestation canals / tunnels. I know UWE had this idea before -- not sure if it was scrapped. Basically, linking two infested areas together for faster travel. These tunnels would be dynamic in that no two would ever be the same and the commander would create them. They wouldn't have to be a physical tunnel, perhaps a 'phase gate' that requires a longer 'teleportation time' based on the distance the player is traveling?
- NPCs. I'm sure they're not easy to develop. One of the worst things a game can have is a crappy and hard to control NPC. That said here's a quick example; an NPC which would look like aliens, set off motion tracking, and probably take less damage. Basically an illusion.
- Control of 'creep strength.' No idea how this would be pulled off -- but if creep spread over a window, door, whatever, the commander could select the creep over that location and destroy what was under it. For example, if any maps are still in space a broken window would send the people in the room flying out to their death. Perhaps other units counter, like heavy armor, could withstand the attack.
- Abilities from a hive/chamber. Example; spend X resources and make select unit invisible to motion tracking/scans. Imagine if the commander cloaked the real army from motion tracking up one side and bunch of fake NPCs up the other. Also, maybe some kind of ability that blocks the siege tank from shooting through a wall for a certain amount of time?
If these ideas sucks I'm sure there are better ones out there, but in short, abilities should counter the enemy technology or open up the game to a different playstyle (ie; mobile hit and runs vs slowly pushing up with a tank) and shouldn't boost player performance.
What if we merged the gorge and the alien commander? Instead of entering the hive, players could evolve to gorge at a limit of one per hive. The gorge could place all structures in first-person or become an egg to enter the third person commander view to handle upgrades, pheromones, drifters, etc. I think it could help with asymmetry, while not actually removing the commander role from the aliens.
NS1 was had very good balance so its not imposable..
<!--quoteo(post=1895317:date=Jan 18 2012, 12:05 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Jan 18 2012, 12:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895317"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You guys need to just stop with the suggestions of removing the alien comm. That ship has sailed. The advantages and disadvantages are well documented, we've had this argument a thousand times and the decision was made long ago. All you're doing is decreasing the signal to noise ratio of this thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why removing the alien com and moving the abilities to the gorge would not be a lot of work if it sucks you can always go back it would be shear ignorance to not at least try it once while NS2 is still in beta and see the feedback of players hell we might even see full servers :) You can always roll back we are not cutting someone's arm off..
Alien commander is a big mistake and I think its only still around because flayra has some kind of emotional attachment to the concept....
Marine commander works due to a few factors, he controls all the building placement and has the ability to upgrade he has the ability to heal/resupply/beacon etc the marines and the way marines "evolve" (weapon drops)...
All the alien commander does now is control a tech tree which is zzzzzzzz a complete a waste of a player unless you give him all the same tools as the marine commander (which is impossible due to the way marines and aliens evolve/get weapons) the alien commander will always feel underwhelming..
The flip side is if you give him close to everything the marine com gets the game becomes far to symmetrical looses what made it special in the first place...
If that sounds a lot like a basic description of an RTS game, it's because (asymmetrical gameplay goals aside) both teams are led by a RTS-styled leader. Other things that leaders need to be able to do are give orders, and lead development in chosen directions (via research).
I think that UWE needs to pick between an RTS vs RTS model and an asymmetrical alien gardener vs technological commander model. Nothing concrete on that, just my two cents.
I'd love to see Kham with the ability to enter an avatar (physical or otherwise) to control exactly where it places structures that don't require a drifter to build, but at the same time, it seems like we're just finding new, RTS-ier ways to implement the old GorgeCom system. I'd also be okay with seeing the Kham become a infected counterpart to the Com; it wouldn't be as interesting or "new", but making the game fun is more important than making it edgy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Kham = Kharaa Comm?
Heh. I like it.
Heh. I like it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Been hearing it around the forums. I've been using Kharaa Com for a while now, but I finally decided to hop on the bandwagon and stop wasting 7 keys every time. Plus, its homophonic status is either a satire or a testament to the current symmetric nature of NS2's command structure, depending on your camp.
Like specialty pheremones that trigger adrenaline, or maybe make healing more beneficial--
and then regular pheremones that are used just as cloud orders (ie. something harmful is happeneng, something needs help, something needs to be attacked)
Fuzzy logic stuff. None of this MOVE HERE. or ATTACK THIS. More like, OH MY GOD THIS GENERAL REGION.