Giving the alien commander the ability to essentially issue commands via pheromones is a great way to level the playing field since the he shares the same viewpoint as the marine commander without near the same functionality.
However, tacking the seemingly automatic pheromone-style gameplay from NS1 into a duty of the commander is a bit simplistic and uncompelling. If the infestation connects the Kharaa to the hives, then why should an intermediary (the commander) have to relay messages?
So, I support the notion of pheromones being the basic command of the alien commander, although its not as compelling as the classic game where the Kharaa functioned as one "hive mind".
I want the pheromones to be quite simpel waypoints/markers that tell the players that something is going on. and as many of these as possible should be automated. if I as a com builds a building it should automatically send that marker there, if a building is under attack it should release it's own pheremones saying so. Units under attack should release the "heal me" pheremones when they use the in-game voice option for that. (x -> 1 or whatever it is). The pheremones should in my opinion be used so everyone knows what happens at all time so they can pick and choose witch pheremones they feel like reacting to, keeping the more individual nature of the aliens.
The commander really only needs manual control over 4-5 pheremones (maybe show these a bit bigger, or with a separate icon) and these are Attack, Defend, build (priority - all buildings should recive the regular build pheremone at all time), scout and group up. group up is simply the comander telling everyone to get to location X for a co-ordinated attack.
On a similar topic, could we finally have marine waypoints visible on the minimap? I actually stopped and asked the commander "<i>where</i> do you want me to go?" last time I was playing, even though the blue lines on the ground give some indication.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Pheromones Cost P-Res<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> somewhat +1! this was my first thought when i read the news-feed. currently, there is literally no direct way of spending your personal res as alien commander, except maybe building some hydras near the hive (which few people do).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Alien commander paints on the infestation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> +1 in case you are refering to the same idea i have in mind. here is how i imagine this to work:
<b>suggestion for the mechanics when placing the pheromones</b> -alien commander draws an organic line by holding the mouse button -when done drawing, game auto-connects both ends of the line to make it a complete border for pheromone-area inbetween (you can draw a circle but also thick walls or areas which go around corners etc.) -the size of the pheromone area correlates to the cost (personal res) as well as the range/duration/somethingelse -a dense fog on the ground marks the area (it does NOT cover skulks) -no need to make the actual area exactly the same area as the drawing one, make it only roughly the same to save computation-time/effort and prevent people from drawing obscenities/abusing the system in some unpredictable way -there should be a minimum size&cost for the area, possibly a maximum as well
<b>possible benefits</b> -the alien commander has a very organic way to decide how important the "task" is he is about to give: if it is more important, he can simply draw a bigger area (also investing more personal ressources) -the alien commander has more possible choices to adapt to the current situation, regardless of the different effects the pheromones are going to have -every alien commander can develop his own personal style(s) -every pheromone-area will turn out to be a bit different without adding any randomness (addresses organic atmosphere vs mechanic/manmade atmosphere)
<b>possible disadvantages</b> -might require some effort to implement (but if you actually like the idea, this is not going to be an issue right?) -might require some computation-time/network-traffic (this could be scaled down by making the pheromone-area less "accurate" or, if you have to, by replacing the dynamicly drawn line with nodes, adding some straight (or interpolated) lines between those nodes)
<!--quoteo(post=1895458:date=Jan 18 2012, 04:07 PM:name=konata)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (konata @ Jan 18 2012, 04:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895458"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the point Harimau is the alien commander needs to be more engaging.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That was your point, maybe. That wasn't my point.
"What do you want to do as Alien Commander?" is a pretty broad concept, just fyi.
I think we need to separate the two threads of discussion here. We have 1) Giving orders, placing markers, waypoints, etc. and 2) Abilities People are calling both of these things "pheromones", which is even resulting in some ideas leading to a combination of the two (bad).
I like the effect if the commander did a obs recall. The red cycle on minimap. Why not using that kind for alien commander? Like: red cycle = attack + a special global "crying/screaming" sound, screamed by the hive, which can only hear by aliens green cycle = heal + a special global *purr* sound, screamed by the hive, which can only hear by aliens blue = defend + a special global "harrrrrrr*" sound, screamed by the hive, which can only hear by aliens
the alien commander just place pheromones, the color is still red, green and blue. Pheromone have the tiny "like the very nice moving lightball from cysts" effect, which move from one cyst to another.
But there is the same problem like marine waypoints...nobody notice them. Also i don't see often the waypoint as marine, there is a little line on the ground but where is the ingame-icon gone?
+1@ Harimau (im also mixing everything togheter :X shame on me)
- Global waypoints should be available for both teams, and not only aliens. (aliens get pheromones, and marines have extra global waypoints)
- The idea of pheromones led me to the idea of having abilitys that would work similar to the pheromones. (ok still kinda different)
(e.g. see my suggestion(i was wording it wrong... forget pheromones as abilitys, think of sending the stuff(umbra etc) via infestation from structure to a target location), which could solve the structure activated ability problem and gives alien commanders more interaction with his human units...)
Pheremones (waypoints) should be used to simply tie the alien team together and make it easier to get the will of the commander happen, and working as a team.
other P-res abilities would be sweet, but those should not be tied to something fundamental like telling ppl what to do. an example of a good p-res ability for the commander could be a wall of infestation to block paths that require flamers to burn it away (has to wait for the final implementation of infestation), and things like that.
The main thing that iritates me is that alien commander observes the game from the top-down rts perspective. At marine side this is logical, but I think that alien comms eye is infestation so why not make it more literal.
Someone already wrote something similar. What about a relatively small eye moving extremely quickly through the infestation, hard to spot. That would be you, kham. Your view will be a basicly extremely fast moving camera fixed to infestation. You can have standart kham menu like now but you need to be physically present on the spot where you are building something or spreading inf. Also you have powers like uproot marine in infestation or create a barricade from inf.
New hives or harvesters would be placed on the minimap which you would have as a part as standart kham hud as now. But you would need to keep moving, which would keep you busy. Also you can then place building easily on ceilings and walls.
If marines snipe the eye, you would have to respawn and re-enter the hive or something, maybe it would take some time for hive to create new eye as a reward for sharp marines, but it wouldnt happen often because it would move fast and small.
Also you probably could teleport through hives or let yourself be reborn from hive anywhere on the map in case you get stuck on isolated patch of infestation.
As for ordering stuff around... Maybe just some basic postsigns issued through the minimap? I mean any kind of orders for aliens are weird(and that just for pubs anyway) teams will use voicecom.
There are lot of issues with this but I think it is somewhat interesting idea.
Also sorry for my english. Could probably write better but I'm in hurry.
edit: Building stuff far from hive seems more problematic than it would be because - hive on hotkey - spawn drifters - then you would have a button to select idle drifters - then you can build anything without leaving your forward position and going back to hive.
Also pressing tab to switch between standart com hud as is now with all the functionality and hotkeys and stripped down hud where you can move your eye with wasd and only lay down some direct infestation spells (like uproot and barricade and spores and whatever) to keep the ability to move while you are using these things because you will use them on marines and they can shoot at you.
TL;DR way for alien com to have massive skill ceiling
you should look into the savage 2. I often played commander in this game and I can say I was never bored. I had my drifters (I think they were called saplings in s2 on the beast side) I could repair my base with and support building on the front and harass the enemy. And as a commander you had many spells you could cast to influence the outcome of a battle, like reducing armor, a little fire dot, slow against one enemy, recall(calling a unit back to base, like a single beacon), clear the fog of war and buffing the armor of a group.
I found savage 2 comm a bit boring, basically you have a tech building for each life form (the lerk den, the fade den, ..) and then you spam buff and debuff on units, it's a kind of spell war between the commanders...
ZeikkoJoin Date: 2007-12-16Member: 63179Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
<!--quoteo(post=1895507:date=Jan 18 2012, 03:24 PM:name=Skipjack)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skipjack @ Jan 18 2012, 03:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895507"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you should look into the savage 2. I often played commander in this game and I can say I was never bored. I had my drifters (I think they were called saplings in s2 on the beast side) I could repair my base with and support building on the front and harass the enemy. And as a commander you had many spells you could cast to influence the outcome of a battle, like reducing armor, a little fire dot, slow against one enemy, recall(calling a unit back to base, like a single beacon), clear the fog of war and buffing the armor of a group.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Savage 2 commanding had nice use of tech decisions and micromanagement with diverse set of active abilities but it was very detached from the players in sense of strategy and tactics. Sure the comm was microing with the abilities to help the players but i rarely saw any communication between players and the commander.
Pheromones is a good idea as long as its not something considerably buffing the aliens , the fade is already very strong when well played and the skulk balanced id say. Something along infestation defense would be nice.
1- Some not so visible patch of acid like goo on the ground that would do moderate damage on contact to the unaware marines , with some radius limit to not overspawn them in a given area. Those acid patch would go away if the infestation is destroyed but you can't destroy them unless so.
2- Spore releasing pods that could be built on the wall. Those would release toxic spores in a medium radius upon proximity. Again infestation dependant but those would last 2 or 3 mins without any infestation support before dying, so taking down the infestation nodules from afar before going in wouldnt makes them useless.
3- Buff hydras range , they are really too easy to take down imo.
But the complexity of globals, waypoints, and markers could cause confusion among the troops. Why isn't everyone going there??
How about everything starts as a global... Placing them is as simple as choosing a context and clicking. They appear in a list that the commander can then delete from in the UI. This allows both commanders to issue orders more broadly and quickly in the beginning of the game. and also Cancel orders more broadly (retreat and defend the base).
If two or more globals exist the commander can explicitly point an alien/marine to a specific global. No dude I want you at the defend point ...that's your strength ...defense
As time would go on commanders would learn they need to TALK more to coordinate more complex scenarios. I'm putting another global only 3 of the away team go for it.
I think I like the painting pheromones suggestion better, perhaps with less player buffing but with signpost idea of Charlie's.
I don't know if UWE plans on ditching the squad system or not, but the "squad blobs" seem like a good start for painting areas.
Say the Khamm can press pheromone icon on the Hive for a squad blob; it's size is as large as a single Marine in terms of Squad selection. He can find an area to left click on, which then allows him to move the cursor around to expand the blob in any direction. He can the left click again to confirm placement, causing the types of pheromones to appear in the bottom right.
He can purchase any 1 type for 1-2 PRes; each has its own color or Kharaa symbol for players to see. If you don't want the blob to obstruct player view, then maybe it should only be visible when using Alien Vision.
Aside from the signposting function, I think pheromones could interact with the environment somewhat. For example, spreading Hive room mist into the painted area, or causing nearby infestation to procedurally generate.
I'm not really too keen on the idea that the commander shouldn't be the centralised leader - is the idea of the alien commander to be constantly swapped between members of the team? I say this because if the role is to only affect infrastructure it would be best to continually be hopping in and out so the aliens have an extra member on the field.
The proposed pheromones idea does sound an awful lot like glorified waypoints. That is to say, not particularly integral to the execution of the role. I have no problem with implementing them, it's a cool alternative way of giving orders but let's not pretend its a gameplay mechanic.
With that in mind, I'd like to see more active abilities, ways of directly supporting other members of the team, abilities which can be used in a non defensive manner (right now mostly everything the comm can do is infestation only) and more of a choice when it comes to hive energy:
--- I think a really cool way of adding more fun stuff to the Alien Commander would be to emphasise the active use of drifters. The way I see it is the Flash upgrade has a lot of potential, but it's stuck at 2 hives and is kinda weak. However, if the system were changed to allow access to the upgrade at hive1 when you choose the hive's upgrade path it give the A-Comm a much more engrossing role right from the off.
You could have a different drifter ability for each upgrade path. It could either reinforce the flavour of chamber (i.e. Flash on a Shade hive) or go some way to making up for the deficits of each individual path (i.e. some type of regeneration/shield ability on a non-Crag hive). The downside would be that you'd only have a limited use (because you'd sacrifice a drifter each time) and you'd have to actively prepare for it and use it.
This would provide an opportunity for the alien commander to act positively in un-infested areas, which the role is currently confined too. I want to feel like I can help my team when they're in the midst of an offensive skirmish, not just when they're defending or taking part in a slow grinding siege.
The other part of the change to the A-Comm I'd like to see would be a lot more drifter use in general. I think it could be a real nice point of differentiation between the marines and the aliens: the marine comm has his omnipresent combat spells (med-packs/ammo/scan), while the A-Comm has to manoeuvre drifters. With the above idea also implemented they'd be used for combat support, scouting and building. The A-Comm has them from the start of the game and they're integral to the role's effectiveness, whereas MACs only come into play mid-game and must stick with marines to repair/build.
This would require 2 things:
1. Cheaper drifter energy cost or hives to automatically spawn up to X drifters, one every Y time period (extra drifters would be quite expensive "emergency purchases" [I like this idea]).
2. A drifter speed increase or health increase. I'd prefer speed increase rather than health increase because it gives the marines a decent chance to kill the drifter before the Flash.
New Flash-like abilities would be unlocked appropriately with each new "upgrade path" hive (what is the official term for this?).
Allien commander should work in two modes (hive sight like it is now implemented) and as a mobile form (NEW). It could start like this : game is starting -> alien gets into the hive for cyst placement, places waypoints of infestation, manages drifters and/or build upgrades, scouts marine start and their progress directions. In case of emergency/rush or while gathering energy to spawn more drifters he can morf for a team res into some kind of mobile form to move around the map with new abilities/support for the aliens. Try to think about those new possibilites... Hive mind in a life form shoudn't have an ability to attack itself but should have plenty of tools to aid alliens in the field. EXAMPLES : 1) speed up the infestation progress, maybe it would be good if he moved slowly but infestation in the rooms he passed and stayed for a while would still progresed rapidly to all surroudings in the room, walls, ceiling, ramps, etc. That way you could actually track the way it moved from one room to another and try to hunt it as marines. Moreover you (UWE) would achieve your goal to actually change whole rooms, evironments with infestation and change the way it's being done right now : few cysts here, few cysts there, just to hit a rt. 2) speed up building/healing of gorges (AOE). That's a first thought but what do you think about boosting every upgrade or one chosen upgrade for all surrounding aliens in limited radius aroung hive mind life form. That way you could actually try to take back fortified position for the next hive. When all tries come on stuck. Gathering aliens around you preparing for the big hit with a hivemind would be a nice morale and adrenaline boost for a team. 3) spawn psheromones/auras with different purposes. Just some auras/boosts for current abilities. 4) be a visible waypoint on the map with some cool voices leading aliens wandering around the map to one place for coordinated attack. You don't want to give alien commander orders and selections of the players, fine but you can actually encourage them to gather and work together in the demanding situations as attacking marine spawn/defending the hive/taking back next hive room. If you convice aliens that gathered together nearby the commander life form are stronger and more effective (boosts/new abilites) they would probably choose that way and then, then we have a teamwork :) As a moving life form you could easily return to the hive just entering to the one of the hives which would have transformed you to a skulk again. Killing a hive mind life form would affect alien for a certain period of time somehow, f.e. cannot get upgrades, reduced eggs spawning, cannot morf to higher class life forms, etc.
That's what I think about alien commanding. The player that takes his role needs some elements of strategy aproach and active influence on the tides of the battles around the map as well. Now it's just boring :/
I didin't read a whole thread. Any similarites and idea stealing regarding previous posts is not intended. Just a another synaps working in a brainstorm :)
I like both the drifter mechanic and also see some potential for the painting one too.
Using drifters has the advantage of being a skill-based technique that the opposition can counter which I like. I also feel like it would scale upwards nicely too and it would be hard to "spam" abilities as it requires good micro. Besides, there would always be an opportunity cost attached to using each ability. This offers room for excellence as a commander which is lacking at the moment.
If the developers are worried about a micro-intensive A-comm experience (though apm is still very low), then the painting idea contains some good elements. Perhaps it could be modified as follows:
- A-Comm has a set of abilities with cooldowns. If the number of abilities is limited, it would make sense to have them visible but greyed out on some sort of taskbar. I say this because it's annoying process to locate a structure, click on it and then select an ability to use and aim it. This works ok with solo structures with immediate aoe effects but can quickly get tedious.
- Abilities are all unique and provide different sets of bonuses but are tied in with current structures. That is to say, as the number of structures go up, the potency of the ability improves. This could be in the form of greater bonuses conferred, faster cooldowns or whatever else takes your fancy (I would advise a cap on how much each ability can be improved). If they are tied in with the 'combat structures', the A-comm now has an interesting choice of whether to place them in vulnerable but effective places where their local trigger-abilities have most utility or whether to place them conservatively to protect spell potency.
- From here, you can get creative with your abilities and give them whatever properties you like. They need not be confined to infestation in all cases. They could include fast drifter speed, defensive bonuses, scan location, attack speed increases, spore bombs, pretty much anything that takes your fancy. I would urge that the abilities not be overly powerful however, just enough to let the A-comm feel useful and engaged.
If this is basically the same as commanding Marines, it may hardly ever be used.
However, the system is a lot better as you don't have to select players first. But as the clouds don't really don't 'do' anything, I can't see commanders using it that much. But we'll see I guess.
Also, please no 'literal' clouds, please have some other effect. Some sort of sonar pulse would be good - just on the floor, and something different when seen through walls.
As for the Marines:
Squads need sorting out first, because finding players to select on screen then send them to locations means you have to do a merry old screen dance and is frustrating.
I voiced a long time ago a system needed for squads, whereby:
# The commander sets the number for squads he wants (minimum 2) with + and - keys.
# You are automatically assigned to a squad.
# The squad you are in is defined by who you hang around with, so if you are in blue squad but spend more time in red, you join red squad.
# There is a cool off period when you are out of the squad range, so if you move near another squad or die, it takes a little while before you change over.
# The cool off period is 30 seconds, + 10 seconds for every minute you spend in your current squad.
The way, people who hang around with certain players automatically start to form up squads, which works for both commander and players.
<!--quoteo(post=1895358:date=Jan 17 2012, 09:53 PM:name=Egad!)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Egad! @ Jan 17 2012, 09:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895358"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally, I think the alien commander should be intrinsically attached to the infestation. As things are now, the hive/alien comm is just a retextured command station.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->I think there should be a sixth alien type -- the infestation.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> You <i>are</i> the infestation, rather than just some alien camping out fetus like inside the womb of a hive.
There's been a lot of talk about making the infestation feel more alive, and I think this is best achieved by making the alien commander, in essence, <i>be the infestation</i>. Controlling the release of pheromones, exploding cysts, or releasing obscuring fog/insects, etc. Less of an emphasis on building, and more on spreading, like a virulent plague. Also, more on setting <i>traps</i>, which I think would be very cool. You are manipulating the environment to find novel ways of leading your foes to their doom. That sounds very fun to play, and fits the guerrilla style warfare the aliens so excel at.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really like the idea of the commander being the infestation itself: he doesn't have a 'overview' of the map like the marine comm does, instead he is bound by the limits of the infestation itself.
-Commander plays from a perspective on the ground, but his movement is bounded by the connected infestation. He has a minimap he can use to jump between infested locations and to get a sort of overview of his 'domain.' -Drifters are eliminated as primary constructors, or even eliminated entirely. The commander builds like a gorge, making structures 'grow' out of the infestation like plants from soil. -The commander can set 'hotspots' to the number keys, either entities (structures) or locations, and jump between them at will provided they are within the connected infestation. -To simplify tech management, perhaps all research/upgrades are available at the hive, and options are opened when the relevant structures are constructed. -We can still have the commander activated effects on structures, the commander just has to 'select' the structure from first person somehow, or maybe have a button that is bound to 'activate ability' to use on structures. -Perhaps the commander can take direct control of drifters and use them as scouts, or use them to drop hives in locations not connected by infestation. -The commander has 'pheromones' he can drop at his current location. These would be very general communications to the team rather than orders, such as 'grow here' or 'enemy nearby.' They would show up like hive-sight icons. Perhaps he can also drop area-effect spore type buffs for his team, balanced by the fact that they can only occur on infestation. If infestation gives the potential for support from the commander, that makes gorges much more important in a push role, dropping forward infestation to help support the team.
A system like this would give the commander a much more hands-on control of the alien structures, and if the commander is literally unable to expand without infestation, it would put more emphasis on gorges expanding and maintaining the infestation. It also serves to completely separate the alien commander from a 'commander' role, making it much more asymmetrical to the marine counterpart. For the marines too, it places a large emphasis on destroying infestation: if you allow it to spread, you are allowing the alien commander to survey and control even more of the map, and anyplace there is infestation, structures could potentially appear with little warning.
edit: Also, if the alien commander is played from a perspective 'in map' instead of overlooking the map, he can fully utilize the map itself. Build your entire base on the ceiling!
Nice ideas everyone. Gosh, sooo much feedback it's actually taking me forever to get through it all! Here goes:
- Regarding asymmetry: I'm sure you understand that I like asymmetric games as much, or more than, anyone else in the world. However, as long as both sides need resources and have structures, they are each going to benefit from team coordination. To coordinate, you need to communicate. To communicate, you need some way to give visual indicators quickly, so the commander needs something. So whether they're called waypoints, signposts or pheromones, it doesn't matter. However I'm interested in making sure they fit the Kharaa theme as much as possible. I think making them team and location centric, not player-centric is a great start.
- For removal of the alien commander: that's not going to happen, sorry.
- I especially liked your thoughts on diversity, cron.
- Regarding "why put these in when you have voice comm": one reason is that the game can create them for you, which it can't do for voice comm. Ie, when you tell a Drifter to build a Hive halfway across the map, it can automatically create a pheromone cloud that tells everyone on your team that you're "Expanding in Crossroads".
- I think you're right about the cloud effect being a bit overused. I imagine that most of the time when you saw pheromones, they would be simply "thought" text that you see through a wall (like hive sight). It's hard to come up with other AV effects that work though.
- I love the idea of having Cysts have commander-triggered abilities. I expect this to make it in at some point.
- Wheee, you'lll be able to speed/control egg production with abilities on the Shift.
- Instead of incentivizing through buffs (which is problematic for many reasons Harimau and others have cited), I could see it working by giving + to score bonus to that action near the cloud. Ie, you get more score for killing something inside the cloud (it would have to be very clear though, which sounds tricky).
OK I'll try to read the rest of this later. I'm exhausted! ;)
<!--quoteo(post=1895235:date=Jan 17 2012, 06:43 PM:name=Typhon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Typhon @ Jan 17 2012, 06:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895235"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ability to 'paint' zones onto the map for some cost in res, varying in their effect and their appearance (primarily through color). Entering a pheromone area grants a small temporary buff to the alien (which persists with them for a little while even after they've left the area). Pheromone areas decay over time, eventually disappearing unless refreshed by the alien commander. Could also allow pheromone strength to be increased by painting more of it down.
Red (attack) - Increases attack power in some way (attack speed, adrenaline recharge, damage bonus, etc.) Green (growth) - Decreases evolve and build times Yellow (alert) - Increases movement speed Blue (defend) - Increases defense in some way (regen, improves effectiveness of armor, etc.)
This also functions as a way to transfer map information and strategy decisions from the comm to the aliens in an organic way (not direct orders like marines). Aliens know where to attack, where its safe to evolve, where they need to defend, etc. and they get bonuses for following the comm's suggestions.
So say marines are pushing a hive, the alien comm can to the following: Paint red on the marines to improve combat ability of aliens attacking the position Paint yellow on the main corridors from nearby parts of the map to the marine's location to speed reinforcements to the area Paint blue over the hive and its defensive structures to help slow the attack and give aliens an area to retreat to to heal up Paint green in a safe location nearby (say the side of the hive opposite the marines) to allow newly spawned aliens to evolve and get back into combat quicker
The alien players now know where to attack, how best to get there, and what areas of the hive are safe vs not<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't quite make it through the entire thread yet but this is my favorite idea so far for sure.
<!--quoteo(post=1895608:date=Jan 18 2012, 05:40 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jan 18 2012, 05:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895608"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Instead of incentivizing through buffs (which is problematic for many reasons Harimau and others have cited), I could see it working by giving + to score bonus to that action near the cloud. Ie, you get more score for killing something inside the cloud (it would have to be very clear though, which sounds tricky).
OK I'll try to read the rest of this later. I'm exhausted! ;)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Personal opinion here but your incentive in the game should be to win not to see who can get the most points. I personally don't even care what my score is...like ever. I don't see what impact it has on the game experience personally.
Personal opinion here but your incentive in the game should be <i>to have fun</i>, not to see who can win or gain the most points. I think a lot of video game players, as well as athletes, focus so much on competition they kill off any enjoyment their respective games would otherwise have.
But I agree with the spirit of your comment -- bestowing points is not the answer, methinks.
Q: What do you want to do as Alien Commander? A: The same things as the Marine Commander.
<b>Give Tasks:</b> similar to the marine commander, but tasks are not assigned to players/squads. Tasks are global ('we need to attack here', 'we need a line of defense here', 'cut power here') and players choose what ever suits them depending on their class, distance to target, etc. I dont see how you could connect these tasks to the infestation as they have to work everywhere on the map, but I aggree that painting on the infestation would be very cool. (As mentioned by others, I dont think that there should be a reward for following orders. Otherwise people would bug the commander to give them the attack-powernode-order when otherwise they would have just attacked it on their own. or they would yell at him for not giving the attack-here-command in every single fight)
<b>Scout:</b> selecting a cyst the commander is given an option to change into first person mode. starting from the cyst he has 15 seconds to move in every direction he wants, left clicking players/structures would mark them for the team (think of <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNLtPLFECNw" target="_blank">The Abyss</a> here). from an outsiders perspective the cyst would grow a fast moving vine. after 15 seconds or taking damage, the vine would retreat to its cyst very fast and the commander would change back to his top down view.
<b>Support:</b> umbra, etc.. the only issue here is that the marine commander can support his team everywhere, while the alien commander is limited to areas close to his structures. probably we need some buffs here.
<b>Participate in attacks:</b> on the marine side we have the ARC as a passive unit controlled by the commander, that can actually cause damage but relies on some teamwork. My only idea how to give the the alien team a similar option is this: commander can build a fake unit and command it through the map to cause some confusion. it would dissapear on physical contact or when taking to much damage, but could not deal damage itself (think of starcraft's hallucinations here).
<b>Build:</b> build drifters, hive, etc...
<b>Research:</b> build the usual research structures and enable the abilities the rest of the team can choose from when evolving. I liked that slider idea, where you could increase one attribute at the cost of another.
<b>Do things in the mean-time:</b> move whips, command drifters, build cysts, grow infestation. as the marine commander currently has more things to do (readjusting the sentry's cone of fire, resupply ammunition(still planed?) and recycling things that are no longer needed, we need some additional tasks for the alien commander. how about this: each cyst can has one extra permanent area effect, i.e. faster healing, faster alien movement, slower marine movent, motion detector, additional HP for buildings. switching the effect only costs some time. then the alien commander would have to permanently readjust his cyst network as the frontlines change. i.e. he could build a fast movement lane to get players to the frontline, would put some motion detectors to prevent marines from sneaking into the base, and build a designated healing area somewhere close to the frontline. People already suggested a system where you could connect the cyst network to the tech structures. I.e. when you connect to a DC, the neighboring cysts would also emitt umbra.
<!--quoteo(post=1895552:date=Jan 18 2012, 12:30 PM:name=maD maX)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (maD maX @ Jan 18 2012, 12:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895552"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think this is going a bit far... I mean getting a whif of something dosnt give you supper strength...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed. I mentioned earlier in this thread that I really don't like the idea of a player getting increased stats. I'd rather see technology counter other technology. Quick examples; ability to cloak fast moving aliens from MT/scans. Some kind of upgrade that interrupts the mobile siege's ability to fire through walls forcing it to get line of sight. I mentioned these two before but I feel like tech countering tech would be 1) less frustrating for the players (as you're not going against super aliens) and 2) encourage teamwork, scouting, and communication.
i just love it when everyone tells charlie alien commander isn't good idea (for years now) but it has to be because we must not like change so lets see where this might take us.
If you want alien commander to work, the role has to be shared with the gorge, here how I think it might work.
alien commander roles -oversee the map, giving out orders, organize attacks -being in charge of alien upgrades -control infestation -drop hives -control which chamber gets dropped first (commander controls which chambers gets picked while the gorge drops them)
the gorge role -after first chamber was selected, the gorge can start spreading the chamber around the map -can build RTs -drops cysts which cost energy to quicken the spread of infestation (since they die easily, they must be replaced quickly)
basic layout, not perfect but the idea the gorge should get shared responsibility, and actually make the gorge useful; being more then he is now. I also hate the gorge upper mouth, it looks like i'm in tunnel, which blocks upper screen. Oh and please remove click-able buffs, I rather see umbra given back to the lerks.
Comments
However, tacking the seemingly automatic pheromone-style gameplay from NS1 into a duty of the commander is a bit simplistic and uncompelling. If the infestation connects the Kharaa to the hives, then why should an intermediary (the commander) have to relay messages?
So, I support the notion of pheromones being the basic command of the alien commander, although its not as compelling as the classic game where the Kharaa functioned as one "hive mind".
if I as a com builds a building it should automatically send that marker there, if a building is under attack it should release it's own pheremones saying so.
Units under attack should release the "heal me" pheremones when they use the in-game voice option for that. (x -> 1 or whatever it is).
The pheremones should in my opinion be used so everyone knows what happens at all time so they can pick and choose witch pheremones they feel like reacting to,
keeping the more individual nature of the aliens.
The commander really only needs manual control over 4-5 pheremones (maybe show these a bit bigger, or with a separate icon) and these are Attack, Defend, build (priority - all buildings should recive the regular build pheremone at all time), scout and group up. group up is simply the comander telling everyone to get to location X for a co-ordinated attack.
somewhat +1! this was my first thought when i read the news-feed. currently, there is literally no direct way of spending your personal res as alien commander, except maybe building some hydras near the hive (which few people do).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Alien commander paints on the infestation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 in case you are refering to the same idea i have in mind.
here is how i imagine this to work:
<b>suggestion for the mechanics when placing the pheromones</b>
-alien commander draws an organic line by holding the mouse button
-when done drawing, game auto-connects both ends of the line to make it a complete border for pheromone-area inbetween (you can draw a circle but also thick walls or areas which go around corners etc.)
-the size of the pheromone area correlates to the cost (personal res) as well as the range/duration/somethingelse
-a dense fog on the ground marks the area (it does NOT cover skulks)
-no need to make the actual area exactly the same area as the drawing one, make it only roughly the same to save computation-time/effort and prevent people from drawing obscenities/abusing the system in some unpredictable way
-there should be a minimum size&cost for the area, possibly a maximum as well
<b>possible benefits</b>
-the alien commander has a very organic way to decide how important the "task" is he is about to give: if it is more important, he can simply draw a bigger area (also investing more personal ressources)
-the alien commander has more possible choices to adapt to the current situation, regardless of the different effects the pheromones are going to have
-every alien commander can develop his own personal style(s)
-every pheromone-area will turn out to be a bit different without adding any randomness (addresses organic atmosphere vs mechanic/manmade atmosphere)
<b>possible disadvantages</b>
-might require some effort to implement (but if you actually like the idea, this is not going to be an issue right?)
-might require some computation-time/network-traffic (this could be scaled down by making the pheromone-area less "accurate" or, if you have to, by replacing the dynamicly drawn line with nodes, adding some straight (or interpolated) lines between those nodes)
That was your point, maybe. That wasn't my point.
"What do you want to do as Alien Commander?" is a pretty broad concept, just fyi.
I think we need to separate the two threads of discussion here.
We have
1) Giving orders, placing markers, waypoints, etc.
and
2) Abilities
People are calling both of these things "pheromones", which is even resulting in some ideas leading to a combination of the two (bad).
The red cycle on minimap.
Why not using that kind for alien commander?
Like:
red cycle = attack + a special global "crying/screaming" sound, screamed by the hive, which can only hear by aliens
green cycle = heal + a special global *purr* sound, screamed by the hive, which can only hear by aliens
blue = defend + a special global "harrrrrrr*" sound, screamed by the hive, which can only hear by aliens
the alien commander just place pheromones, the color is still red, green and blue.
Pheromone have the tiny "like the very nice moving lightball from cysts" effect, which move from one cyst to another.
But there is the same problem like marine waypoints...nobody notice them.
Also i don't see often the waypoint as marine, there is a little line on the ground but where is the ingame-icon gone?
- Global waypoints should be available for both teams, and not only aliens. (aliens get pheromones, and marines have extra global waypoints)
- The idea of pheromones led me to the idea of having abilitys that would work similar to the pheromones. (ok still kinda different)
(e.g. see my suggestion(i was wording it wrong... forget pheromones as abilitys, think of sending the stuff(umbra etc) via infestation from structure to a target location), which could solve the structure activated ability problem and gives alien commanders more interaction with his human units...)
other P-res abilities would be sweet, but those should not be tied to something fundamental like telling ppl what to do.
an example of a good p-res ability for the commander could be a wall of infestation to block paths that require flamers to burn it away (has to wait for the final implementation of infestation), and things like that.
Someone already wrote something similar. What about a relatively small eye moving extremely quickly through the infestation, hard to spot. That would be you, kham. Your view will be a basicly extremely fast moving camera fixed to infestation. You can have standart kham menu like now but you need to be physically present on the spot where you are building something or spreading inf. Also you have powers like uproot marine in infestation or create a barricade from inf.
New hives or harvesters would be placed on the minimap which you would have as a part as standart kham hud as now. But you would need to keep moving, which would keep you busy. Also you can then place building easily on ceilings and walls.
If marines snipe the eye, you would have to respawn and re-enter the hive or something, maybe it would take some time for hive to create new eye as a reward for sharp marines, but it wouldnt happen often because it would move fast and small.
Also you probably could teleport through hives or let yourself be reborn from hive anywhere on the map in case you get stuck on isolated patch of infestation.
As for ordering stuff around... Maybe just some basic postsigns issued through the minimap? I mean any kind of orders for aliens are weird(and that just for pubs anyway) teams will use voicecom.
There are lot of issues with this but I think it is somewhat interesting idea.
Also sorry for my english. Could probably write better but I'm in hurry.
edit: Building stuff far from hive seems more problematic than it would be because - hive on hotkey - spawn drifters - then you would have a button to select idle drifters - then you can build anything without leaving your forward position and going back to hive.
Also pressing tab to switch between standart com hud as is now with all the functionality and hotkeys and stripped down hud where you can move your eye with wasd and only lay down some direct infestation spells (like uproot and barricade and spores and whatever) to keep the ability to move while you are using these things because you will use them on marines and they can shoot at you.
TL;DR way for alien com to have massive skill ceiling
I had my drifters (I think they were called saplings in s2 on the beast side) I could repair my base with and support building on the front and harass the enemy.
And as a commander you had many spells you could cast to influence the outcome of a battle, like reducing armor, a little fire dot, slow against one enemy, recall(calling a unit back to base, like a single beacon), clear the fog of war and buffing the armor of a group.
I had my drifters (I think they were called saplings in s2 on the beast side) I could repair my base with and support building on the front and harass the enemy.
And as a commander you had many spells you could cast to influence the outcome of a battle, like reducing armor, a little fire dot, slow against one enemy, recall(calling a unit back to base, like a single beacon), clear the fog of war and buffing the armor of a group.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Savage 2 commanding had nice use of tech decisions and micromanagement with diverse set of active abilities but it was very detached from the players in sense of strategy and tactics. Sure the comm was microing with the abilities to help the players but i rarely saw any communication between players and the commander.
1- Some not so visible patch of acid like goo on the ground that would do moderate damage on contact to the unaware marines , with some radius limit to not overspawn them in a given area. Those acid patch would go away if the infestation is destroyed but you can't destroy them unless so.
2- Spore releasing pods that could be built on the wall. Those would release toxic spores in a medium radius upon proximity. Again infestation dependant but those would last 2 or 3 mins without any infestation support before dying, so taking down the infestation nodules from afar before going in wouldnt makes them useless.
3- Buff hydras range , they are really too easy to take down imo.
Those 3 things would add danger to the infested territory without being OP in itself id say , dont mind my spelling lol , im from québec.
But the complexity of globals, waypoints, and markers could cause confusion among the troops.
Why isn't everyone going there??
How about everything starts as a global...
Placing them is as simple as choosing a context and clicking.
They appear in a list that the commander can then delete from in the UI.
This allows both commanders to issue orders more broadly and quickly in the beginning of the game.
and also Cancel orders more broadly (retreat and defend the base).
If two or more globals exist the commander can explicitly point an alien/marine to a specific global.
No dude I want you at the defend point ...that's your strength ...defense
As time would go on commanders would learn they need to TALK more to coordinate more complex scenarios.
I'm putting another global only 3 of the away team go for it.
I don't know if UWE plans on ditching the squad system or not, but the "squad blobs" seem like a good start for painting areas.
Say the Khamm can press pheromone icon on the Hive for a squad blob; it's size is as large as a single Marine in terms of Squad selection. He can find an area to left click on, which then allows him to move the cursor around to expand the blob in any direction. He can the left click again to confirm placement, causing the types of pheromones to appear in the bottom right.
He can purchase any 1 type for 1-2 PRes; each has its own color or Kharaa symbol for players to see. If you don't want the blob to obstruct player view, then maybe it should only be visible when using Alien Vision.
Aside from the signposting function, I think pheromones could interact with the environment somewhat. For example, spreading Hive room mist into the painted area, or causing nearby infestation to procedurally generate.
Only reasonable thing I see is to make it a stimulant, faster movement, more energy, increase attack speed.
The proposed pheromones idea does sound an awful lot like glorified waypoints. That is to say, not particularly integral to the execution of the role. I have no problem with implementing them, it's a cool alternative way of giving orders but let's not pretend its a gameplay mechanic.
With that in mind, I'd like to see more active abilities, ways of directly supporting other members of the team, abilities which can be used in a non defensive manner (right now mostly everything the comm can do is infestation only) and more of a choice when it comes to hive energy:
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I think a really cool way of adding more fun stuff to the Alien Commander would be to emphasise the active use of drifters. The way I see it is the Flash upgrade has a lot of potential, but it's stuck at 2 hives and is kinda weak. However, if the system were changed to allow access to the upgrade at hive1 when you choose the hive's upgrade path it give the A-Comm a much more engrossing role right from the off.
You could have a different drifter ability for each upgrade path. It could either reinforce the flavour of chamber (i.e. Flash on a Shade hive) or go some way to making up for the deficits of each individual path (i.e. some type of regeneration/shield ability on a non-Crag hive). The downside would be that you'd only have a limited use (because you'd sacrifice a drifter each time) and you'd have to actively prepare for it and use it.
This would provide an opportunity for the alien commander to act positively in un-infested areas, which the role is currently confined too. I want to feel like I can help my team when they're in the midst of an offensive skirmish, not just when they're defending or taking part in a slow grinding siege.
The other part of the change to the A-Comm I'd like to see would be a lot more drifter use in general. I think it could be a real nice point of differentiation between the marines and the aliens: the marine comm has his omnipresent combat spells (med-packs/ammo/scan), while the A-Comm has to manoeuvre drifters. With the above idea also implemented they'd be used for combat support, scouting and building. The A-Comm has them from the start of the game and they're integral to the role's effectiveness, whereas MACs only come into play mid-game and must stick with marines to repair/build.
This would require 2 things:
1. Cheaper drifter energy cost or hives to automatically spawn up to X drifters, one every Y time period (extra drifters would be quite expensive "emergency purchases" [I like this idea]).
2. A drifter speed increase or health increase. I'd prefer speed increase rather than health increase because it gives the marines a decent chance to kill the drifter before the Flash.
New Flash-like abilities would be unlocked appropriately with each new "upgrade path" hive (what is the official term for this?).
Allien commander should work in two modes (hive sight like it is now implemented) and as a mobile form (NEW). It could start like this : game is starting -> alien gets into the hive for cyst placement, places waypoints of infestation, manages drifters and/or build upgrades, scouts marine start and their progress directions. In case of emergency/rush or while gathering energy to spawn more drifters he can morf for a team res into some kind of mobile form to move around the map with new abilities/support for the aliens. Try to think about those new possibilites... Hive mind in a life form shoudn't have an ability to attack itself but should have plenty of tools to aid alliens in the field.
EXAMPLES :
1) speed up the infestation progress, maybe it would be good if he moved slowly but infestation in the rooms he passed and stayed for a while would still progresed rapidly to all surroudings in the room, walls, ceiling, ramps, etc. That way you could actually track the way it moved from one room to another and try to hunt it as marines. Moreover you (UWE) would achieve your goal to actually change whole rooms, evironments with infestation and change the way it's being done right now : few cysts here, few cysts there, just to hit a rt.
2) speed up building/healing of gorges (AOE). That's a first thought but what do you think about boosting every upgrade or one chosen upgrade for all surrounding aliens in limited radius aroung hive mind life form. That way you could actually try to take back fortified position for the next hive. When all tries come on stuck. Gathering aliens around you preparing for the big hit with a hivemind would be a nice morale and adrenaline boost for a team.
3) spawn psheromones/auras with different purposes. Just some auras/boosts for current abilities.
4) be a visible waypoint on the map with some cool voices leading aliens wandering around the map to one place for coordinated attack. You don't want to give alien commander orders and selections of the players, fine but you can actually encourage them to gather and work together in the demanding situations as attacking marine spawn/defending the hive/taking back next hive room. If you convice aliens that gathered together nearby the commander life form are stronger and more effective (boosts/new abilites) they would probably choose that way and then, then we have a teamwork :)
As a moving life form you could easily return to the hive just entering to the one of the hives which would have transformed you to a skulk again. Killing a hive mind life form would affect alien for a certain period of time somehow, f.e. cannot get upgrades, reduced eggs spawning, cannot morf to higher class life forms, etc.
That's what I think about alien commanding. The player that takes his role needs some elements of strategy aproach and active influence on the tides of the battles around the map as well. Now it's just boring :/
I didin't read a whole thread. Any similarites and idea stealing regarding previous posts is not intended. Just a another synaps working in a brainstorm :)
Using drifters has the advantage of being a skill-based technique that the opposition can counter which I like. I also feel like it would scale upwards nicely too and it would be hard to "spam" abilities as it requires good micro. Besides, there would always be an opportunity cost attached to using each ability. This offers room for excellence as a commander which is lacking at the moment.
If the developers are worried about a micro-intensive A-comm experience (though apm is still very low), then the painting idea contains some good elements. Perhaps it could be modified as follows:
- A-Comm has a set of abilities with cooldowns. If the number of abilities is limited, it would make sense to have them visible but greyed out on some sort of taskbar. I say this because it's annoying process to locate a structure, click on it and then select an ability to use and aim it. This works ok with solo structures with immediate aoe effects but can quickly get tedious.
- Abilities are all unique and provide different sets of bonuses but are tied in with current structures. That is to say, as the number of structures go up, the potency of the ability improves. This could be in the form of greater bonuses conferred, faster cooldowns or whatever else takes your fancy (I would advise a cap on how much each ability can be improved). If they are tied in with the 'combat structures', the A-comm now has an interesting choice of whether to place them in vulnerable but effective places where their local trigger-abilities have most utility or whether to place them conservatively to protect spell potency.
- From here, you can get creative with your abilities and give them whatever properties you like. They need not be confined to infestation in all cases. They could include fast drifter speed, defensive bonuses, scan location, attack speed increases, spore bombs, pretty much anything that takes your fancy. I would urge that the abilities not be overly powerful however, just enough to let the A-comm feel useful and engaged.
However, the system is a lot better as you don't have to select players first. But as the clouds don't really don't 'do' anything, I can't see commanders using it that much. But we'll see I guess.
Also, please no 'literal' clouds, please have some other effect. Some sort of sonar pulse would be good - just on the floor, and something different when seen through walls.
As for the Marines:
Squads need sorting out first, because finding players to select on screen then send them to locations means you have to do a merry old screen dance and is frustrating.
I voiced a long time ago a system needed for squads, whereby:
# The commander sets the number for squads he wants (minimum 2) with + and - keys.
# You are automatically assigned to a squad.
# The squad you are in is defined by who you hang around with, so if you are in blue squad but spend more time in red, you join red squad.
# There is a cool off period when you are out of the squad range, so if you move near another squad or die, it takes a little while before you change over.
# The cool off period is 30 seconds, + 10 seconds for every minute you spend in your current squad.
The way, people who hang around with certain players automatically start to form up squads, which works for both commander and players.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->I think there should be a sixth alien type -- the infestation.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> You <i>are</i> the infestation, rather than just some alien camping out fetus like inside the womb of a hive.
There's been a lot of talk about making the infestation feel more alive, and I think this is best achieved by making the alien commander, in essence, <i>be the infestation</i>. Controlling the release of pheromones, exploding cysts, or releasing obscuring fog/insects, etc. Less of an emphasis on building, and more on spreading, like a virulent plague. Also, more on setting <i>traps</i>, which I think would be very cool. You are manipulating the environment to find novel ways of leading your foes to their doom. That sounds very fun to play, and fits the guerrilla style warfare the aliens so excel at.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really like the idea of the commander being the infestation itself: he doesn't have a 'overview' of the map like the marine comm does, instead he is bound by the limits of the infestation itself.
-Commander plays from a perspective on the ground, but his movement is bounded by the connected infestation. He has a minimap he can use to jump between infested locations and to get a sort of overview of his 'domain.'
-Drifters are eliminated as primary constructors, or even eliminated entirely. The commander builds like a gorge, making structures 'grow' out of the infestation like plants from soil.
-The commander can set 'hotspots' to the number keys, either entities (structures) or locations, and jump between them at will provided they are within the connected infestation.
-To simplify tech management, perhaps all research/upgrades are available at the hive, and options are opened when the relevant structures are constructed.
-We can still have the commander activated effects on structures, the commander just has to 'select' the structure from first person somehow, or maybe have a button that is bound to 'activate ability' to use on structures.
-Perhaps the commander can take direct control of drifters and use them as scouts, or use them to drop hives in locations not connected by infestation.
-The commander has 'pheromones' he can drop at his current location. These would be very general communications to the team rather than orders, such as 'grow here' or 'enemy nearby.' They would show up like hive-sight icons. Perhaps he can also drop area-effect spore type buffs for his team, balanced by the fact that they can only occur on infestation. If infestation gives the potential for support from the commander, that makes gorges much more important in a push role, dropping forward infestation to help support the team.
A system like this would give the commander a much more hands-on control of the alien structures, and if the commander is literally unable to expand without infestation, it would put more emphasis on gorges expanding and maintaining the infestation. It also serves to completely separate the alien commander from a 'commander' role, making it much more asymmetrical to the marine counterpart. For the marines too, it places a large emphasis on destroying infestation: if you allow it to spread, you are allowing the alien commander to survey and control even more of the map, and anyplace there is infestation, structures could potentially appear with little warning.
edit: Also, if the alien commander is played from a perspective 'in map' instead of overlooking the map, he can fully utilize the map itself. Build your entire base on the ceiling!
- Regarding asymmetry: I'm sure you understand that I like asymmetric games as much, or more than, anyone else in the world. However, as long as both sides need resources and have structures, they are each going to benefit from team coordination. To coordinate, you need to communicate. To communicate, you need some way to give visual indicators quickly, so the commander needs something. So whether they're called waypoints, signposts or pheromones, it doesn't matter. However I'm interested in making sure they fit the Kharaa theme as much as possible. I think making them team and location centric, not player-centric is a great start.
- For removal of the alien commander: that's not going to happen, sorry.
- I especially liked your thoughts on diversity, cron.
- Regarding "why put these in when you have voice comm": one reason is that the game can create them for you, which it can't do for voice comm. Ie, when you tell a Drifter to build a Hive halfway across the map, it can automatically create a pheromone cloud that tells everyone on your team that you're "Expanding in Crossroads".
- I think you're right about the cloud effect being a bit overused. I imagine that most of the time when you saw pheromones, they would be simply "thought" text that you see through a wall (like hive sight). It's hard to come up with other AV effects that work though.
- I love the idea of having Cysts have commander-triggered abilities. I expect this to make it in at some point.
- Wheee, you'lll be able to speed/control egg production with abilities on the Shift.
- Instead of incentivizing through buffs (which is problematic for many reasons Harimau and others have cited), I could see it working by giving + to score bonus to that action near the cloud. Ie, you get more score for killing something inside the cloud (it would have to be very clear though, which sounds tricky).
OK I'll try to read the rest of this later. I'm exhausted! ;)
Red (attack) - Increases attack power in some way (attack speed, adrenaline recharge, damage bonus, etc.)
Green (growth) - Decreases evolve and build times
Yellow (alert) - Increases movement speed
Blue (defend) - Increases defense in some way (regen, improves effectiveness of armor, etc.)
This also functions as a way to transfer map information and strategy decisions from the comm to the aliens in an organic way (not direct orders like marines). Aliens know where to attack, where its safe to evolve, where they need to defend, etc. and they get bonuses for following the comm's suggestions.
So say marines are pushing a hive, the alien comm can to the following:
Paint red on the marines to improve combat ability of aliens attacking the position
Paint yellow on the main corridors from nearby parts of the map to the marine's location to speed reinforcements to the area
Paint blue over the hive and its defensive structures to help slow the attack and give aliens an area to retreat to to heal up
Paint green in a safe location nearby (say the side of the hive opposite the marines) to allow newly spawned aliens to evolve and get back into combat quicker
The alien players now know where to attack, how best to get there, and what areas of the hive are safe vs not<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't quite make it through the entire thread yet but this is my favorite idea so far for sure.
OK I'll try to read the rest of this later. I'm exhausted! ;)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Personal opinion here but your incentive in the game should be to win not to see who can get the most points. I personally don't even care what my score is...like ever. I don't see what impact it has on the game experience personally.
But I agree with the spirit of your comment -- bestowing points is not the answer, methinks.
A: The same things as the Marine Commander.
<b>Give Tasks:</b> similar to the marine commander, but tasks are not assigned to players/squads. Tasks are global ('we need to attack here', 'we need a line of defense here', 'cut power here') and players choose what ever suits them depending on their class, distance to target, etc. I dont see how you could connect these tasks to the infestation as they have to work everywhere on the map, but I aggree that painting on the infestation would be very cool. (As mentioned by others, I dont think that there should be a reward for following orders. Otherwise people would bug the commander to give them the attack-powernode-order when otherwise they would have just attacked it on their own. or they would yell at him for not giving the attack-here-command in every single fight)
<b>Scout:</b> selecting a cyst the commander is given an option to change into first person mode. starting from the cyst he has 15 seconds to move in every direction he wants, left clicking players/structures would mark them for the team (think of <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNLtPLFECNw" target="_blank">The Abyss</a> here). from an outsiders perspective the cyst would grow a fast moving vine. after 15 seconds or taking damage, the vine would retreat to its cyst very fast and the commander would change back to his top down view.
<b>Support:</b> umbra, etc.. the only issue here is that the marine commander can support his team everywhere, while the alien commander is limited to areas close to his structures. probably we need some buffs here.
<b>Participate in attacks:</b> on the marine side we have the ARC as a passive unit controlled by the commander, that can actually cause damage but relies on some teamwork. My only idea how to give the the alien team a similar option is this: commander can build a fake unit and command it through the map to cause some confusion. it would dissapear on physical contact or when taking to much damage, but could not deal damage itself (think of starcraft's hallucinations here).
<b>Build:</b> build drifters, hive, etc...
<b>Research:</b> build the usual research structures and enable the abilities the rest of the team can choose from when evolving. I liked that slider idea, where you could increase one attribute at the cost of another.
<b>Do things in the mean-time:</b> move whips, command drifters, build cysts, grow infestation.
as the marine commander currently has more things to do (readjusting the sentry's cone of fire, resupply ammunition(still planed?) and recycling things that are no longer needed, we need some additional tasks for the alien commander. how about this:
each cyst can has one extra permanent area effect, i.e. faster healing, faster alien movement, slower marine movent, motion detector, additional HP for buildings.
switching the effect only costs some time. then the alien commander would have to permanently readjust his cyst network as the frontlines change. i.e. he could build a fast movement lane to get players to the frontline, would put some motion detectors to prevent marines from sneaking into the base, and build a designated healing area somewhere close to the frontline.
People already suggested a system where you could connect the cyst network to the tech structures. I.e. when you connect to a DC, the neighboring cysts would also emitt umbra.
This is 100% team play, all that matters is the team that wins, and personal k/d ratios.
Agreed. I mentioned earlier in this thread that I really don't like the idea of a player getting increased stats. I'd rather see technology counter other technology. Quick examples; ability to cloak fast moving aliens from MT/scans. Some kind of upgrade that interrupts the mobile siege's ability to fire through walls forcing it to get line of sight. I mentioned these two before but I feel like tech countering tech would be 1) less frustrating for the players (as you're not going against super aliens) and 2) encourage teamwork, scouting, and communication.
If you want alien commander to work, the role has to be shared with the gorge, here how I think it might work.
alien commander roles
-oversee the map, giving out orders, organize attacks
-being in charge of alien upgrades
-control infestation
-drop hives
-control which chamber gets dropped first (commander controls which chambers gets picked while the gorge drops them)
the gorge role
-after first chamber was selected, the gorge can start spreading the chamber around the map
-can build RTs
-drops cysts which cost energy to quicken the spread of infestation (since they die easily, they must be replaced quickly)
basic layout, not perfect but the idea the gorge should get shared responsibility, and actually make the gorge useful; being more then he is now. I also hate the gorge upper mouth, it looks like i'm in tunnel, which blocks upper screen. Oh and please remove click-able buffs, I rather see umbra given back to the lerks.