IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited February 2012
i like the creative approach based around scaling, Broseidon, but a gorge spitting out two hydras would kill the marine instantly coming around the corner? "the other spike ball can still shoot while the others grow" but how fast is the rate of fire?? this means a lot. having enough time for the marine to leave the area is important, too.
the only issue i see is: LMG is a constantly firing range weapon that needs <i><b>time </b></i>to damage, so if a structure does not allow for this time, as a shotgun would, then it is immediately imbalanced. you cannot assume every rine has a shotgun and fast reflexes. there needs to be an encounter which takes X amount of time to allow the marines a chance to fight a 10 res structure and win.
i do agree with everybody though that the hydra needs a buff (how about when in proximity of other structures/hydras, it's damage goes up? this works great as an upgrade as long as you can EAT/recycle the hydra and maintain it's/your upgrades.. it would be the "tending the garden" support aspect of the gorge that people love. you really would care about those hydras )
Perhaps the spikeballs shouldn't regrow - making the suggested hydra more like a mine. Could also have them burst and shoot out spikes everywhere on impact, dealing some splash damage...
<!--quoteo(post=1899959:date=Feb 5 2012, 04:16 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Feb 5 2012, 04:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1899959"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Perhaps the spikeballs shouldn't regrow - making the suggested hydra more like a mine. Could also have them burst and shoot out spikes everywhere on impact, dealing some splash damage...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
b-b-b-but <b><i>that idea sounds a lot like the mine!</i></b>
I really wish there would be a way to keep the hydras as a permanent static defense that's somewhat spammable.
Right now they don't feel that useless, they just feel way too expensive compared to thei usefullness.
They just fit so nicely into the whole dynamic infestation and alien buildings artstyle, if the game would be just about "the looks" i would love to have them grow randomly out of dynamic infestation everywhere.
Of course they would need to be rebalanced for that and i doubt the game could handle such an unit in so many numbers.
But here's an idea that could make the current hydras somewhat more usefull for their res price: Make hydras regrow after they got killed, as long as that patch of infestation still exists. This also adds the option to put an passive effect to one of the upgrade chambers that shortens regrowth time? (Of course not on the crag)
Currently they are just kinda ineffective as area denial because of their shortcomings, having them regrow would give them some more effectiveness as area denial tools because then marines have to kill everything in the room before it's cleared, including the infestation.
<!--quoteo(post=1899954:date=Feb 5 2012, 10:01 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Feb 5 2012, 10:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1899954"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i like the creative approach based around scaling, Broseidon, but a gorge spitting out two hydras would kill the marine instantly coming around the corner? "the other spike ball can still shoot while the others grow" but how fast is the rate of fire?? this means a lot. having enough time for the marine to leave the area is important, too.
the only issue i see is: LMG is a constantly firing range weapon that needs <i><b>time </b></i>to damage, so if a structure does not allow for this time, as a shotgun would, then it is immediately unbalanced. you cannot assume every rine has a shotgun and fast reflexes. there needs to be an encounter which takes X amount of time to allow the marines a chance to fight a 10 res structure and win.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hmmm... very valid points. Maybe tripled increased rate of fire of the current Hydra so that the marine(s) can still avoid the other two spike balls (or the last one in some cases). With doubled spike ball regrow time so that the first spike ball won't finish growing right after the last one shot it's target. They aren't under powered but it's still not ideal to fight in a room of hydras and is good early RT defense. Thought I also made this idea thinking that the res system would be adjusted so that they wouldn't be too spammable the reason of it's power and P-res cost :/ <!--quoteo(post=1899959:date=Feb 5 2012, 10:16 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Feb 5 2012, 10:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1899959"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Perhaps the spikeballs shouldn't regrow - making the suggested hydra more like a mine. Could also have them burst and shoot out spikes everywhere on impact, dealing some splash damage...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I kinda felt that I didn't want gorges to re drop successful hydras, rewarding the hydra placement by letting it live while a hydra that failed will be killed while regrowing the hydra balls (Natural selection ;D) But I like the splash damage idea :)
<!--quoteo(post=1899969:date=Feb 5 2012, 04:54 PM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ Feb 5 2012, 04:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1899969"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But here's an idea that could make the current hydras somewhat more usefull for their res price: Make hydras regrow after they got killed, as long as that patch of infestation still exists. This also adds the option to put an passive effect to one of the upgrade chambers that shortens regrowth time? (Of course not on the crag)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it also makes them more like <b>hydras</b>
this is honestly a pretty decent idea - it goes in a completely different direction from a lot of my ideas, but it would help the hydra in its 'permanent static defence' role that you mentioned, without dramatically bumping up the damage done by something that nobody has to bother aiming
I think something like this along with limited numbers of hydras and pres recycling would be cool to test as well.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
edited February 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1899770:date=Feb 4 2012, 06:58 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Feb 4 2012, 06:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1899770"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Multiplayer games should be about player vs. player interaction, not player vs. game controlled static defence. We're already seeing the effects beefed up turrets are having on gameplay, and they're not good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> While I agree in theory, I feel static defenses can help increase the number of player v player interactions by reducing the need for players to hang back to defend. For example, a sentry covering the IP at marine start allows me to defend the base against small attacks (1-2 skulks) alone, therefore freeing a marine up from idling in base to actually pressing out to attack/expand.
I also view static defenses as useful in making the game more scalable with playercount. For example, if I we're comming a 4v4 on mineshaft, I simply wouldn't have enough players to both defend more than 1-2 tech/res nodes and actually have an offense if I didn't have effective static defenses. However, if it was a 10v10 match, then the need for static defenses is lessened because there are enough players to do both.
Personally, I'd like to see static defenses whose effectiveness decreased exponentially with the number of people attacking like vs 1 player = very effective (90% chance of stopping the attack/killing the player) vs 2 players = mediocre (45% chance of stopping the attack/killing the player) vs 3 players = poor (22.5% chance of stopping the attack/killing the player) vs 4 players = very poor (10% chance of stopping the attack/killing the player)
For many people the whole fun about an RTS is the ineraction between static defenses and attacking forces.
I know that especially in NS everybody just thinks "noob turret/OC spam is annoying, it's an FPS we want to aim ourself!" but there is a valid element of gameplay in "static defense building and managing" that also belongs to NS.
Tbh i wouldn't need more from this game then just running around as gorge spamming endless infestation litered with hydras and maybe other cool looking and growing stuff, right now it's that much fun to me ;)
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
allowing the hydra rebirth as long as the infestation remained (or was replaced soon enough) and a long enough time in between dying and growing, it would place much more importance on that infestation - which is a good thing as NS2 is all about territory control.
but i still want the gorge to have the ability to "eat it" or recycle it for use somewhere else. n00bs improperly place them, so this change helps accessbility. the frontlines are constantly changing due to the territorial tug of war, so needing to move them makes sense much like the marine comm can recycle a turret and drop a new one. we need that equivalence.
Another option to consider could be allowing gorge to take a hydra in its mouth and carry it to a different location, like a lioness carries her cubs. Before I get ridiculed, I must say I'm aware of the limitations of this particular metaphore. :)
I wonder what the consensus was on Hydra recycle ala +use/alt-fire? I remember it being on the progress tracker briefly..
Thought of a way to execute this idea:
1) Gorge chooses Hydra slot. 2) When he mouses over an existing Hydra (that is his), the build model disappears, and you see text near/under your crosshair: "Consume Hydra for X Personal Resources" 3) +Use would cause the Hydra to die a premature death (or wither into infestation for fancier animation), and would also drain your Adrenaline as though you built a Hydra (choose wisely when you want to do this, hopefully not while supporting your buddies with heals)
I didn't choose left-click for consuming because of possible misclicks while building Hydras close together, and +Use while not in Hydra slot would regularly help Hydras grow faster.
Conveniently, this method also lets you recover Hydras placed high up on walls and the ceiling.
Yeah they are pretty crap at the moment, if they are made better (do more damage, etc..) maybe to stop cluster spamming them they can only be placed within a certain range of each other?
<!--quoteo(post=1900010:date=Feb 6 2012, 12:27 AM:name=OnosFactory)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OnosFactory @ Feb 6 2012, 12:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900010"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Over thinking, over analysing seperates the body from the mind....
Agreed, far to many complicated solutions...even more simple than a damage buff, how about just increasing range to that of sentries?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think most people realize that these values can be easily changed and will be changed when the time is right. But i think the number for balance trough number crunshing is not right when not even all features are present in the game.
No need to fine tune the numbers into details when 2 versions down the line another weapon or ability gets added that affects the overall gameplay once again.
In this stage of the game it makes more sense to experiement around with different gameplay mechanics instead of just changing number values for perfectly theorycrafted competive balance.
Just take a look at the whole alien metagame side of things, it feels horribly unfinished right now. For all we know they could change how the node system and dynamic infestation work once again ^^
<!--quoteo(post=1900000:date=Feb 5 2012, 06:43 PM:name=reh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (reh @ Feb 5 2012, 06:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900000"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Another option to consider could be allowing gorge to take a hydra in its mouth and carry it to a different location, like a lioness carries her cubs. Before I get ridiculed, I must say I'm aware of the limitations of this particular metaphore. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
there's no way I could ridicule this - when they added this to the engineer in TF2 it was probably the best thing they ever did for the class
<!--quoteo(post=1900010:date=Feb 5 2012, 07:27 PM:name=OnosFactory)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OnosFactory @ Feb 5 2012, 07:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900010"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Over thinking, over analysing seperates the body from the mind....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1899920:date=Feb 6 2012, 01:02 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Feb 6 2012, 01:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1899920"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->::shakes head:: i never get people who approach issues this way. in any development there will be issues with implementation and practicality versus the intended purpose / result. its the development / patches on them that <i><b>fix</b></i> them. i mean, you actually just picked removing something <u>over</u> fixing it. ... ::scratches head:: <i>thats akin to me selling my car because of a flat tire.</i>
true, if the car is the issue then i sell the whole thing. but do you really believe that the hydra cannot be adjusted in such a modifiable game to suit everyone's standards?? what is so wrong in it's concept that cannot be modified? every single point the OP posted can be fixed.. easily, mind you.
attempt, at least, to make it work before scrapping it.
(oh and causing poor performance shouldnt even be included on there, its not like that isn't solvable or part of the natural process of development for ANY element. remember when particle effects from building gave you 1 fps?)
and yes, allow the gorge to eat his own hydra for re placement.. the front lines change<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What in the world are you talking about?
Here's, exactly, what I said: Fix broken feature > <b>Remove broken feature > Don't fix broken feature</b> <!--QuoteBegin-Harimau+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Better to remove it entirely than <!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->not<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> fix it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> and this is what it was in response to: <!--QuoteBegin-Karko+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Karko)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why put so much effort into re-inventing hydra?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You seriously need to stop picking a fight with me. You just look like a fool.
Instead of these changes, why not increase rate of fire & range then tweak dmg? Would be easier than re-inventing the hydra at this stage. Also you can't compare new player gorges doing the wrong thing and fortifying the hive to a marine team that know what they're doing. Otherwise you can compare it to a new player commander that hasn't upgraded anything, is slow building, fortified marine start etc etc.
well seriously the reason why hydras are so worthless vs marine sentries is that marines can engage them at range, which means that marines get to pick and choose when and how to engage them (unless somehow there are enough hidden to 1 shot a marine, and that only works once). as such most of the time a marine can take down hydra farms one at a time. upping damage and fire rates will only make them overpowered.
what the devs should do is pick one or two roles for the hydra, and make its abilities focus on that. is it front line support, allowing battle gorges to contribute to group dps/diffuse marine dps to multiple targets? is it meant to be the mainstay of your static d? (i don't agree with this btw, since i think static d should be handled by the kham)? is it just a temp to slow down a marine advance, allowing for aliens to respond to a push? is it meant to be a scout building/marine detector? right now it feels like it's kind of trying to be all of the above, but doing none of the roles very well.
here's some suggestions: 1) if it's meant to be front line support: allow to be built/survive anywhere, but there is an ammo/spike counter that doesn't regenerate while not on infestation. allow gorges to reabsorb or move them. give them bigger hitboxes.
2) if it's meant to be primary static d: add a DOT to the spikes and make them more accurate so marines can't peek and shoot as well.
3) if it's meant to stop solo marines from sneaking into the hive: web or other debilitating effect.
4) marine detection: make the 'angry hydra' effect more prominently noticeable visually or aurally when marines are in its vicinity, maybe add a slight minimap ping or something.
in all cases, i would recommend a limited number active per gorge (2-3 per hive maybe?). while it's impressive to see a field of 20 hydras in a room, i don't think it adds anything to the game.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><b>i got some idea</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, i mean hydras are very easy to kill. What is, if hydras only die if they are burned with flamethrower, or killed with arcs? So if a rifle or grenade hits them, the hydra will lose health and grow back to small, but they will not die (removed). Like if they are placed, if you understand what i mean. hydra get shot by rifle -> hydra get 0 health -> hydra shrinks -> if a gorge heal it, it will grow back to 100% without getting removed(killed).
<!--quoteo(post=1900117:date=Feb 6 2012, 10:42 AM:name=Price)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Price @ Feb 6 2012, 10:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900117"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><b>i got some idea</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, i mean hydras are very easy to kill. What is, if hydras only die if they are burned with flamethrower, or killed with arcs? So if a rifle or grenade hits them, the hydra will lose health and grow back to small, but they will not die (removed). Like if they are placed, if you understand what i mean. hydra get shot by rifle -> hydra get 0 health -> hydra shrinks -> if a gorge heal it, it will grow back to 100% without getting removed(killed).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's basicly like my suggestion, but i don't like the requirement for the gorge to healspray them back to live, just let them slowly regrow as long as that patch of infestation isn't killed. That way they need less attention to act as area denial against rambo marines without overpowering them too much if they get spammed.
But really love the flamethrower/ARC idea, it's something i also thought about yesterday. It makes the whole idea even more awesome because it makes logical sense to the player using a flamethrower. If you burn it, it's roots are gone so it can't regrow, if you just shoot it to pieces then the roots inside the infestation will just regrow the hydra.
Hydras regrowing on dynamic infestation would solve ALOT of problems with them without imbalancing them too much and it would fit so niceley into the whole alien dynamic of infestation and growing. by adding an interesting gameplay mechanic that doesn't need much explanation because it's very visual and logical.
The biggest problem with the hydra is their range. It's so short it makes it useless even in moderately sized rooms, ultimately there is no space in any map I've seen in NS2 that should come close to even the effective range for a ranged weapon if they aren't lobbing geriatric slow pitch softball velocity darts.
Increase their range so they can target anywhere in any room they're in and into the hallway, change damage to low instant, dot over time, stacking DoT from multiple hydras.
You get rid of sniping, you get rid of sucking up damage endlessly, you prevent them from becoming unstoppably lethal because damage comes over time. If you spend 70 resources placing 7 hydras, then the marine players should damned well need to get a GL to just casually lob grenades around the corner. It's not like any weapon in the marine arsenal has a problem killing hydras.
Other options could be say, a DoT that does damage over time that increases rapidly when on infestation, allowing hydras to effectively defend harvesters from attack provided they would be on infestation (such as axing) or to protect cysts while giving players the ability to avoid it.
For added effect, add a gorge set of upgrades that allows it to do DoT's to buildings it hits to make it a base killing support structure or one that lets enemies hit be parasited for X seconds.
I also fully support the idea (written elsewhere) of gorges carrying structures on their backs, including hydras, to make them bunker like so they can help the team eventually advance into the enemy base.
Gorges basically do three things, hydras, cysts, and healing. Removing hydras would make them only do cysts and healing which would be incredibly boring.
A handful of sentry guns drastically changes how the game plays, a dozen hydras is grenade bait and a waste of resources. Even if they don't play the same exact role of heavy static defense, they should be available to help cut back lone players sniping resources.
Ultimately the gorge could at least fill a role in early game of protecting advanced outposts while the allies push the attack with a better hydra.
I'm not sure if there is a server-load-problem with increasing the range of the hydra. Targeting algorithm sure needs more time when overlooking a higher range.
Maybe they could be changed slightly to prevent the marines from shooting them around edges, where the hydra can't fire at the marine. Just move the point, where the projectile is generated dynamically near the hydra. So the hydra can "duck" behind cover (if well placed) and if a marine enters its range it stretches it self and fires the projectile over the cover. This way gorges have to think where to place them and marines could not easily kill them without taking damage. (Besides it could look really cool with a nice animation.)
Additionally some short points to give my 2 cent. Problem: Serverload: * prevent placing one hydra near another and compensate with more damage (the radius should be several meters!) * cap to maximum 3 hydras per gorge and make hydras removable by the gorge.
Problem: price / performance ratio: * use energy for planting hydras (cap at 3 hydras will prevent spamming) * enable them to duck and shoot over cover (should make them non-deadly traps and better area-denial weapons) * maybe let them slowly grow back after a marine has killed it (flamer removes permanent).
One of the problems is, that the gorge has to pay res for the hydras. This makes the nearly defenseless hydra a high-value-target for marines and prevent the gorge from evolving to something better at a later time. The gorge simply shouldn't sacrifice his option of changing to "another game experience" (=other alien) because he is using one of his 3 useful weapons.
<!--quoteo(post=1900125:date=Feb 6 2012, 12:23 PM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ Feb 6 2012, 12:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900125"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hydras regrowing on dynamic infestation would solve ALOT of problems with them without imbalancing them too much and it would fit so niceley into the whole alien dynamic of infestation and growing. by adding an interesting gameplay mechanic that doesn't need much explanation because it's very visual and logical.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I quite like this idea. It would certainly make me feel a lot less like I'm just wasting res dropping them. The only downside being that infestation is even easier to kill than hydras.
Slightly OT: Are cysts still a placeholder until "real" infestation comes out or have we quietly grown to accept them as the best way to handle spread?
<!--quoteo(post=1900651:date=Feb 7 2012, 03:05 PM:name=marsvin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (marsvin @ Feb 7 2012, 03:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900651"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I quite like this idea. It would certainly make me feel a lot less like I'm just wasting res dropping them. The only downside being that infestation is even easier to kill than hydras.
Slightly OT: Are cysts still a placeholder until "real" infestation comes out or have we quietly grown to accept them as the best way to handle spread?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well if the infestation dies first then the hydra still stays there until it's killed, easy as that.
But the bigger problem right now is that currently mini-cysts directly translate to resources, i think that mechanic needs to go. Expanding of the dynamic infestation shouldn't be limited by resources but by other means, the enery is a good start for that but ultimatley i would love if additional hives would unlock new anjd easier ways to spread infestation.
I hope in the end gorges will be able to spread minicysts based on some slowly regenrating energy, it just feels stupid and boring wasting your personal res on reinforcing infestation by placing minicysts on walls/ceillings when the commander simply can spam 20 pustles that do not cost any resources at all (but cut down on his ability to spent resources because now he doesn't have energy for drifters...)
Cysts/pustles are also easy to kill for marines, every LMG marine can easily kill them from range all he needs to invest is some time as ammo is usually "free". So if marines only have to invest "time" to kill infestation then the alien side also should only have to invest time to rebuild it and not resources.
Currently because of the infestation/cyst/mini cyst mechanic the alien team is at an huge disadvantage. If you would let 2 teams of equal player skill and knowledge about game mechanic fight against each other the Marine team would ALLWAYS win. So i'm pretty sure the whole infestation/cyst/gorge/khamm mechanic will see a few changes.
I do like the idea of hydras being able to maneuver their tentacles around to hit marines. One problem right now is that often times a marine can get in a location where the hydra can't shoot back and just whittle it down. Be nice if a hydra was getting shot, it would return fire from the location it was getting hit, assuming the marine was in range. Of course the damage could use a bit of a buff as well. It's a bit silly to see a marine run under 10 hydras and live long enough to pump off 5 shotgun blasts while they attack him.
It's also hard, for me at least, to tell when the hydras are actually attacking. I can't see their spikes very well. Anyways we could make it a bit more visible, like glowing orange spike projectiles maybe?
Comments
the only issue i see is: LMG is a constantly firing range weapon that needs <i><b>time </b></i>to damage, so if a structure does not allow for this time, as a shotgun would, then it is immediately imbalanced. you cannot assume every rine has a shotgun and fast reflexes. there needs to be an encounter which takes X amount of time to allow the marines a chance to fight a 10 res structure and win.
i do agree with everybody though that the hydra needs a buff (how about when in proximity of other structures/hydras, it's damage goes up? this works great as an upgrade as long as you can EAT/recycle the hydra and maintain it's/your upgrades.. it would be the "tending the garden" support aspect of the gorge that people love. you really would care about those hydras )
b-b-b-but <b><i>that idea sounds a lot like the mine!</i></b>
Right now they don't feel that useless, they just feel way too expensive compared to thei usefullness.
They just fit so nicely into the whole dynamic infestation and alien buildings artstyle, if the game would be just about "the looks" i would love to have them grow randomly out of dynamic infestation everywhere.
Of course they would need to be rebalanced for that and i doubt the game could handle such an unit in so many numbers.
But here's an idea that could make the current hydras somewhat more usefull for their res price: Make hydras regrow after they got killed, as long as that patch of infestation still exists. This also adds the option to put an passive effect to one of the upgrade chambers that shortens regrowth time? (Of course not on the crag)
Currently they are just kinda ineffective as area denial because of their shortcomings, having them regrow would give them some more effectiveness as area denial tools because then marines have to kill everything in the room before it's cleared, including the infestation.
Just throwing some ideas around :)
the only issue i see is: LMG is a constantly firing range weapon that needs <i><b>time </b></i>to damage, so if a structure does not allow for this time, as a shotgun would, then it is immediately unbalanced. you cannot assume every rine has a shotgun and fast reflexes. there needs to be an encounter which takes X amount of time to allow the marines a chance to fight a 10 res structure and win.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmmm... very valid points. Maybe tripled increased rate of fire of the current Hydra so that the marine(s) can still avoid the other two spike balls (or the last one in some cases). With doubled spike ball regrow time so that the first spike ball won't finish growing right after the last one shot it's target. They aren't under powered but it's still not ideal to fight in a room of hydras and is good early RT defense. Thought I also made this idea thinking that the res system would be adjusted so that they wouldn't be too spammable the reason of it's power and P-res cost :/
<!--quoteo(post=1899959:date=Feb 5 2012, 10:16 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Feb 5 2012, 10:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1899959"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Perhaps the spikeballs shouldn't regrow - making the suggested hydra more like a mine. Could also have them burst and shoot out spikes everywhere on impact, dealing some splash damage...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I kinda felt that I didn't want gorges to re drop successful hydras, rewarding the hydra placement by letting it live while a hydra that failed will be killed while regrowing the hydra balls (Natural selection ;D) But I like the splash damage idea :)
it also makes them more like <b>hydras</b>
this is honestly a pretty decent idea - it goes in a completely different direction from a lot of my ideas, but it would help the hydra in its 'permanent static defence' role that you mentioned, without dramatically bumping up the damage done by something that nobody has to bother aiming
I think something like this along with limited numbers of hydras and pres recycling would be cool to test as well.
While I agree in theory, I feel static defenses can help increase the number of player v player interactions by reducing the need for players to hang back to defend. For example, a sentry covering the IP at marine start allows me to defend the base against small attacks (1-2 skulks) alone, therefore freeing a marine up from idling in base to actually pressing out to attack/expand.
I also view static defenses as useful in making the game more scalable with playercount. For example, if I we're comming a 4v4 on mineshaft, I simply wouldn't have enough players to both defend more than 1-2 tech/res nodes and actually have an offense if I didn't have effective static defenses. However, if it was a 10v10 match, then the need for static defenses is lessened because there are enough players to do both.
Personally, I'd like to see static defenses whose effectiveness decreased exponentially with the number of people attacking like
vs 1 player = very effective (90% chance of stopping the attack/killing the player)
vs 2 players = mediocre (45% chance of stopping the attack/killing the player)
vs 3 players = poor (22.5% chance of stopping the attack/killing the player)
vs 4 players = very poor (10% chance of stopping the attack/killing the player)
For many people the whole fun about an RTS is the ineraction between static defenses and attacking forces.
I know that especially in NS everybody just thinks "noob turret/OC spam is annoying, it's an FPS we want to aim ourself!" but there is a valid element of gameplay in "static defense building and managing" that also belongs to NS.
Tbh i wouldn't need more from this game then just running around as gorge spamming endless infestation litered with hydras and maybe other cool looking and growing stuff, right now it's that much fun to me ;)
but i still want the gorge to have the ability to "eat it" or recycle it for use somewhere else. n00bs improperly place them, so this change helps accessbility. the frontlines are constantly changing due to the territorial tug of war, so needing to move them makes sense much like the marine comm can recycle a turret and drop a new one. we need that equivalence.
Thought of a way to execute this idea:
1) Gorge chooses Hydra slot.
2) When he mouses over an existing Hydra (that is his), the build model disappears, and you see text near/under your crosshair: "Consume Hydra for X Personal Resources"
3) +Use would cause the Hydra to die a premature death (or wither into infestation for fancier animation), and would also drain your Adrenaline as though you built a Hydra (choose wisely when you want to do this, hopefully not while supporting your buddies with heals)
I didn't choose left-click for consuming because of possible misclicks while building Hydras close together, and +Use while not in Hydra slot would regularly help Hydras grow faster.
Conveniently, this method also lets you recover Hydras placed high up on walls and the ceiling.
Agreed, far to many complicated solutions...even more simple than a damage buff, how about just increasing range to that of sentries?
Agreed, far to many complicated solutions...even more simple than a damage buff, how about just increasing range to that of sentries?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think most people realize that these values can be easily changed and will be changed when the time is right.
But i think the number for balance trough number crunshing is not right when not even all features are present in the game.
No need to fine tune the numbers into details when 2 versions down the line another weapon or ability gets added that affects the overall gameplay once again.
In this stage of the game it makes more sense to experiement around with different gameplay mechanics instead of just changing number values for perfectly theorycrafted competive balance.
Just take a look at the whole alien metagame side of things, it feels horribly unfinished right now. For all we know they could change how the node system and dynamic infestation work once again ^^
there's no way I could ridicule this - when they added this to the engineer in TF2 it was probably the best thing they ever did for the class
<!--quoteo(post=1900010:date=Feb 5 2012, 07:27 PM:name=OnosFactory)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OnosFactory @ Feb 5 2012, 07:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900010"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Over thinking, over analysing seperates the body from the mind....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
quoting tool makes you sound smart <i>!!</i>
i never get people who approach issues this way. in any development there will be issues with implementation and practicality versus the intended purpose / result. its the development / patches on them that <i><b>fix</b></i> them.
i mean, you actually just picked removing something <u>over</u> fixing it. ... ::scratches head::
<i>thats akin to me selling my car because of a flat tire.</i>
true, if the car is the issue then i sell the whole thing. but do you really believe that the hydra cannot be adjusted in such a modifiable game to suit everyone's standards?? what is so wrong in it's concept that cannot be modified? every single point the OP posted can be fixed.. easily, mind you.
attempt, at least, to make it work before scrapping it.
(oh and causing poor performance shouldnt even be included on there, its not like that isn't solvable or part of the natural process of development for ANY element. remember when particle effects from building gave you 1 fps?)
and yes, allow the gorge to eat his own hydra for re placement.. the front lines change<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What in the world are you talking about?
Here's, exactly, what I said:
Fix broken feature > <b>Remove broken feature > Don't fix broken feature</b>
<!--QuoteBegin-Harimau+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Better to remove it entirely than <!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->not<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> fix it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and this is what it was in response to:
<!--QuoteBegin-Karko+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Karko)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why put so much effort into re-inventing hydra?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You seriously need to stop picking a fight with me. You just look like a fool.
Apples/Oranges people.
what the devs should do is pick one or two roles for the hydra, and make its abilities focus on that. is it front line support, allowing battle gorges to contribute to group dps/diffuse marine dps to multiple targets? is it meant to be the mainstay of your static d? (i don't agree with this btw, since i think static d should be handled by the kham)? is it just a temp to slow down a marine advance, allowing for aliens to respond to a push? is it meant to be a scout building/marine detector? right now it feels like it's kind of trying to be all of the above, but doing none of the roles very well.
here's some suggestions:
1) if it's meant to be front line support: allow to be built/survive anywhere, but there is an ammo/spike counter that doesn't regenerate while not on infestation. allow gorges to reabsorb or move them. give them bigger hitboxes.
2) if it's meant to be primary static d: add a DOT to the spikes and make them more accurate so marines can't peek and shoot as well.
3) if it's meant to stop solo marines from sneaking into the hive: web or other debilitating effect.
4) marine detection: make the 'angry hydra' effect more prominently noticeable visually or aurally when marines are in its vicinity, maybe add a slight minimap ping or something.
in all cases, i would recommend a limited number active per gorge (2-3 per hive maybe?). while it's impressive to see a field of 20 hydras in a room, i don't think it adds anything to the game.
i find some hydras quite easy to kill while others are annoying as FFF
What is, if hydras only die if they are burned with flamethrower, or killed with arcs?
So if a rifle or grenade hits them, the hydra will lose health and grow back to small, but they will not die (removed).
Like if they are placed, if you understand what i mean.
hydra get shot by rifle -> hydra get 0 health -> hydra shrinks -> if a gorge heal it, it will grow back to 100% without getting removed(killed).
What is, if hydras only die if they are burned with flamethrower, or killed with arcs?
So if a rifle or grenade hits them, the hydra will lose health and grow back to small, but they will not die (removed).
Like if they are placed, if you understand what i mean.
hydra get shot by rifle -> hydra get 0 health -> hydra shrinks -> if a gorge heal it, it will grow back to 100% without getting removed(killed).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's basicly like my suggestion, but i don't like the requirement for the gorge to healspray them back to live, just let them slowly regrow as long as that patch of infestation isn't killed. That way they need less attention to act as area denial against rambo marines without overpowering them too much if they get spammed.
But really love the flamethrower/ARC idea, it's something i also thought about yesterday.
It makes the whole idea even more awesome because it makes logical sense to the player using a flamethrower.
If you burn it, it's roots are gone so it can't regrow, if you just shoot it to pieces then the roots inside the infestation will just regrow the hydra.
Hydras regrowing on dynamic infestation would solve ALOT of problems with them without imbalancing them too much and it would fit so niceley into the whole alien dynamic of infestation and growing. by adding an interesting gameplay mechanic that doesn't need much explanation because it's very visual and logical.
Increase their range so they can target anywhere in any room they're in and into the hallway, change damage to low instant, dot over time, stacking DoT from multiple hydras.
You get rid of sniping, you get rid of sucking up damage endlessly, you prevent them from becoming unstoppably lethal because damage comes over time. If you spend 70 resources placing 7 hydras, then the marine players should damned well need to get a GL to just casually lob grenades around the corner. It's not like any weapon in the marine arsenal has a problem killing hydras.
Other options could be say, a DoT that does damage over time that increases rapidly when on infestation, allowing hydras to effectively defend harvesters from attack provided they would be on infestation (such as axing) or to protect cysts while giving players the ability to avoid it.
For added effect, add a gorge set of upgrades that allows it to do DoT's to buildings it hits to make it a base killing support structure or one that lets enemies hit be parasited for X seconds.
I also fully support the idea (written elsewhere) of gorges carrying structures on their backs, including hydras, to make them bunker like so they can help the team eventually advance into the enemy base.
Gorges basically do three things, hydras, cysts, and healing. Removing hydras would make them only do cysts and healing which would be incredibly boring.
A handful of sentry guns drastically changes how the game plays, a dozen hydras is grenade bait and a waste of resources. Even if they don't play the same exact role of heavy static defense, they should be available to help cut back lone players sniping resources.
Ultimately the gorge could at least fill a role in early game of protecting advanced outposts while the allies push the attack with a better hydra.
Maybe they could be changed slightly to prevent the marines from shooting them around edges, where the hydra can't fire at the marine. Just move the point, where the projectile is generated dynamically near the hydra. So the hydra can "duck" behind cover (if well placed) and if a marine enters its range it stretches it self and fires the projectile over the cover. This way gorges have to think where to place them and marines could not easily kill them without taking damage. (Besides it could look really cool with a nice animation.)
Additionally some short points to give my 2 cent.
Problem: Serverload:
* prevent placing one hydra near another and compensate with more damage (the radius should be several meters!)
* cap to maximum 3 hydras per gorge and make hydras removable by the gorge.
Problem: price / performance ratio:
* use energy for planting hydras (cap at 3 hydras will prevent spamming)
* enable them to duck and shoot over cover (should make them non-deadly traps and better area-denial weapons)
* maybe let them slowly grow back after a marine has killed it (flamer removes permanent).
One of the problems is, that the gorge has to pay res for the hydras. This makes the nearly defenseless hydra a high-value-target for marines and prevent the gorge from evolving to something better at a later time. The gorge simply shouldn't sacrifice his option of changing to "another game experience" (=other alien) because he is using one of his 3 useful weapons.
I quite like this idea. It would certainly make me feel a lot less like I'm just wasting res dropping them. The only downside being that infestation is even easier to kill than hydras.
Slightly OT: Are cysts still a placeholder until "real" infestation comes out or have we quietly grown to accept them as the best way to handle spread?
Slightly OT: Are cysts still a placeholder until "real" infestation comes out or have we quietly grown to accept them as the best way to handle spread?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well if the infestation dies first then the hydra still stays there until it's killed, easy as that.
But the bigger problem right now is that currently mini-cysts directly translate to resources, i think that mechanic needs to go.
Expanding of the dynamic infestation shouldn't be limited by resources but by other means, the enery is a good start for that but ultimatley i would love if additional hives would unlock new anjd easier ways to spread infestation.
I hope in the end gorges will be able to spread minicysts based on some slowly regenrating energy, it just feels stupid and boring wasting your personal res on reinforcing infestation by placing minicysts on walls/ceillings when the commander simply can spam 20 pustles that do not cost any resources at all (but cut down on his ability to spent resources because now he doesn't have energy for drifters...)
Cysts/pustles are also easy to kill for marines, every LMG marine can easily kill them from range all he needs to invest is some time as ammo is usually "free".
So if marines only have to invest "time" to kill infestation then the alien side also should only have to invest time to rebuild it and not resources.
Currently because of the infestation/cyst/mini cyst mechanic the alien team is at an huge disadvantage. If you would let 2 teams of equal player skill and knowledge about game mechanic fight against each other the Marine team would ALLWAYS win. So i'm pretty sure the whole infestation/cyst/gorge/khamm mechanic will see a few changes.
It's also hard, for me at least, to tell when the hydras are actually attacking. I can't see their spikes very well. Anyways we could make it a bit more visible, like glowing orange spike projectiles maybe?