<!--quoteo(post=1901335:date=Feb 9 2012, 06:44 PM:name=Slithers)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Slithers @ Feb 9 2012, 06:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1901335"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skill based movement in all nex generation games has been removed by companies, simply because it's "skillful". In my honest opinion, the removal of skill based movement is one of the most devestating features to gameplay now a days. I play NS1, Half Life, Counter-Strike, Quake, Unreal tournament, Age of Conan - all skill based movement games, then I make my way over to NS2, Call of Duty, Battlefield 3 and I just want to cry. Realism has taken over the movement factor and has completely revoked the right to move fluidly and skillfully through maps, making for cheese watered down crap gameplay.
Truthfully, I am sick of it and the only reason why I don't play NS2 is not because of the graphics or the netcode or anything else, it's simply because the movement and "feel" of the game is horrendous, it's the biggest turn off since Call of Duty. I just can't do it anymore, I've been gaming since I was 12 years old and I just can't stand by these game developers anymore, that sell out so hard just to make a buck for the mainstream audience. Call me Negative Nancy, a troll, I couldn't care less at this point. I'd rather play nothing than play another game that just sells out to make profit and forgets about what really matters, the gameplay.
I mean CS is 12 years old and the game still has a population that can hold it's own, check the steam statistics. Players continue to go back to it because of the inner gameplay, the skill based movement, the teamwork, the amount of skill each individual gun is required leaving tons of room for evolving as a single player and a team. I don't know what UWE is going to about the movemnt factor, but all I know is, myself and like 10 other buddies don't play the game because we were told when we preordered NS2 at the time, that Bunnyhopping and all that fun stuff was going to be implemented. After they receieved their money, we were then told afterwards that there will be no Bunnyhopping or anything like it, basically killing off the main feature NS1 was founded on.
Skill based gaming is dead, the reason for it boils down to massive waves of noobs handing their money over to game developers. As always, money = the roof of all evil and I truly believe that. I can't even play a video game now a days, the one place tat seems like a free market and a good escape from reality, without having to deal with the bull###### involved. Hollywood is here to destroy the art that we all loved. For those of you that disagree, I feel sorry for you, because truly you never experienced the golden years of gaming. Keep handing these companies your money for gameplay that dies out after 8 months and they rehash another game with a new skin to take more of your money.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I completely agree. It has bothered me as well for sometime now but i never new quite why. It is also why i wont play a FPS on a console. Movement. Take heart though, your preorder wont go to waste. I am more looking forward to the community driven NS:Spark. I try here and there to help but in the end i want that more than NS2. NS2 has strayed too much for me to enjoy it (though they revert back a lot so who knows).
Nah dude, I don't have faith anymore, seriously. I am not even pointing my finger at UWE here, this is just an overall view I have on the entire industry and the direction it continues to head in to. IT goes even beyond movement, I mean look at when people shoot their guns, they need a friggin crosshair to let them know they're hitting a target, because the blood and sound effect wasn't enough...
Or Games like BF3, where you turn on Hardcore mode but yet when you shoot a gun, it reveals your position on the map, it's just all of it. The companies only care about the buck and UWE situation, they will have to focus on that more than anybody, since they are not exactly rich and in the market to make their buck, which I completely understand. It's just sickening that so many terrible gamers are cattered too and it literally destroys it for Esports. I mean what game can you honestly say is good for esport gaming in nex generation gaming? Starcraft 2(which imo is complete ######) people are only playing it because there is virtually nothing else to play or contrast it too, so it's an illusion.
The entire industry is one big cess pool of crap, because graphics are always the #1 priority and making it so the 40 year old stay at home father is able to play it aswell, leaving no room for evolving as a player. It's simple, remove all skill, increase the graphics and add in easy mode mechanics that anybody can learn within an hr. Look at Call of Duty, I bet you could hand it over to your dad, ask him to go in a map and shoot a few people and he would probably get a 1:1 ratio.
Now give him cs 1.6 and ask him to kill people, he would more than likely go like 1-40 by the end of the game. There is no hope left in the industry and I am just venting because I want a game so bad like the cs 1.6 / Quake era, but it's never going to happen.
<!--quoteo(post=1901344:date=Feb 9 2012, 06:57 PM:name=Slithers)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Slithers @ Feb 9 2012, 06:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1901344"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nah dude, I don't have faith anymore, seriously. I am not even pointing my finger at UWE here, this is just an overall view I have on the entire industry and the direction it continues to head in to. IT goes even beyond movement, I mean look at when people shoot their guns, they need a friggin crosshair to let them know they're hitting a target, because the blood and sound effect wasn't enough...
Or Games like BF3, where you turn on Hardcore mode but yet when you shoot a gun, it reveals your position on the map, it's just all of it. The companies only care about the buck and UWE situation, they will have to focus on that more than anybody, since they are not exactly rich and in the market to make their buck, which I completely understand. It's just sickening that so many terrible gamers are cattered too and it literally destroys it for Esports. I mean what game can you honestly say is good for esport gaming in nex generation gaming? Starcraft 2(which imo is complete ######) people are only playing it because there is virtually nothing else to play or contrast it too, so it's an illusion.
The entire industry is one big cess pool of crap, because graphics are always the #1 priority and making it so the 40 year old stay at home father is able to play it aswell, leaving no room for evolving as a player. It's simple, remove all skill, increase the graphics and add in easy mode mechanics that anybody can learn within an hr. Look at Call of Duty, I bet you could hand it over to your dad, ask him to go in a map and shoot a few people and he would probably get a 1:1 ratio.
Now give him cs 1.6 and ask him to kill people, he would more than likely go like 1-40 by the end of the game. There is no hope left in the industry and I am just venting because I want a game so bad like the cs 1.6 / Quake era, but it's never going to happen.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True. Might be why we got NS in the first place. They were gamers who made a game without the notion of selling it. It was a labor of love nor profit. We were lucky enough to play in NS 1's hay day. It was awesome. Sad to think those days are gone and the days of play a game for a month just to move on to another are here. Very sad indeed.
Yep, go look at CS:GO - worse game I've ever seen. The company is just trying to make money off the name and the concept, it's a watered down version of cs source and 1.6. They removed Bunnyhopping completely and made machine guns shoot really well, which only means one thing... Call of Duty.
<!--quoteo(post=1901335:date=Feb 10 2012, 05:44 AM:name=Slithers)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Slithers @ Feb 10 2012, 05:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1901335"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skill based movement in all nex generation games has been removed by companies,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The tf2 system is harder to max than NS1. The mechanic spawned a raft of dedicated jump servers to do nothing but jump. Only a fraction of players can finish the cheval jump map below. After 6:00 is :O. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1FpCbBtwOc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1FpCbBtwOc</a>
Looks like an easier version of conc jumping to me... But that is not a combat situation and you really cannot compare something like that to bunny hopping from NS1.
As far as skill based games recently the trend is for those games to be dying. As gaming becomes more of an entertainment this is to be expected somewhat. What’s important to note is that e-sports are becoming more popular, and for there to be e-sports there needs to be skill based games. I expect that you will eventually start to see more skillful games being released at some point, as there will be increased demand with the increasing popularity of e-sports. It is sad to see so many games removing any form of skill. I still hold some hope for NS2 retaining some of the skill from NS1, and would really like to see the game become a e-sport team based game, as NS1 was arguably one if not the best team based competitive games. In the end I understand the developers need to make money otherwise there is nothing, so I do not place blame on them for how the game ends up, I only wish to express what I would like to see, and what I think a lot of others would like.
<!--quoteo(post=1901366:date=Feb 9 2012, 07:40 PM:name=Mkk_Bitestuff)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mkk_Bitestuff @ Feb 9 2012, 07:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1901366"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In the end I understand the developers need to make money otherwise there is nothing, so I do not place blame on them for how the game ends up, I only wish to express what I would like to see, and what I think a lot of others would like.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hear you. They are selling out and you are putting it nicely. I love them too and Money is the root of all evil as we see here.
I would not go that far and say that yet, as we have not seen what the final product of NS2 is. They still have done a lot more with the community than basically any other game, even if the skill cap is much lower the game play style and action are still there somewhat. When NS1 was made it was a free mod so they could do whatever and did not have to worry about the financial part really. With NS2 they need to deliver a game that can at least make back their investments, so certain things may need to be toned down or removed so that the game has wider appeal. It is also the general gaming community's (not the NS community) that prefers these skill less games, so they are kinda stuck between a rock and a hard place with NS2.
Very true, selling out would infer they dont care. I think they do care as you say but have to appeal to the wider audience. It just really throws my expectations in the toilet when i really look at the situation. They will play it safe and make a mediocre game. I will hate it because it is like everything else out there. Hopefully they make their money and then some, continue development and NS3 becomes that "it" game for me.
<!--quoteo(post=1901366:date=Feb 10 2012, 06:40 AM:name=Mkk_Bitestuff)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mkk_Bitestuff @ Feb 10 2012, 06:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1901366"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But that is not a combat situation<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Here it is being used in real levels. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm-BGnaBCgE" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm-BGnaBCgE</a>
Wasn't your point there is no skill based movement in modern games? Having used both this and bhop in comp i can tell you the combat advantages to learning the techniques are the same. I can also tell you the learning curve on movement for tf2 is longer than learning NS1.
Edit: the biggest difference is you cant dominate in tf2 like ns1 because noob friendly classes (heavy, pryo, spy) and mechanics (e.g. random crits) were put in for that very reason.
Yes real levels but not actual combat... Rocket jumping is useful movement ability in TF2 im not denying that but i do not think you can compare it to bhop and how that extended everything you did as an alien at high levels in NS1. TF2 may be somewhat of an exception to skill based movement in newer games, but the trend is less and less games have it, we are not saying every game no longer has it.
Slightly off topic, but RE BF3: Guns are fairly loud and revealing your position to nearby people on the minimap is hardly as dramatic as you make it out to be. Infact it makes a lot of sense and works well. Makes for interesting combat when you ambush guys spraying with their LMGs. Silencers can be used to counter the effect as well. Also, the movement in BF3 is fantastic, being able to sprint over objects is amazing. It not only feels great for a realism based game, but also looks great. The animation blending is fantastic.
You have been using the phrase 'skill-based movement' a lot, but I'm not really sure it actually means much to you. Bunny hopping and bizarre accelerating methods (which usually started out as bugs) are not 'skill-based movement'. The look ridiculous and feel very awkward. They make no sense at all and thats why good players dominate with them. New players have absolutely no way of knowing about such a counter-intuitive system.
<!--quoteo(post=1901357:date=Feb 9 2012, 03:21 PM:name=_Thresh_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Thresh_ @ Feb 9 2012, 03:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1901357"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The tf2 system is harder to max than NS1. The mechanic spawned a raft of dedicated jump servers to do nothing but jump. Only a fraction of players can finish the cheval jump map below. After 6:00 is :O. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1FpCbBtwOc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1FpCbBtwOc</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's a joke compared to conc and rocket maps in TFC. TF2 removed 90% of TFC's movement skill. And the tf2 movement system really isn't harder or better than ns1, that's just a map that takes a bit of time to practice. I can just as easily point you to ns bhop maps that have been out for years and only 1 person has beaten recently. I hear players that play in top level teams in TF2 come back to NS and the first they they talk about is how much better the movement is.
What slithers is saying is right, the need to keep up with the standard in graphics is a huge investment and companies need to fit the least common denominator and can't take risks with that kind of money on the line. What every company is unaware of though is that there is a massive competitive fps scene bored to death with every game, just waiting for something good to come out. The top players in these games have a massive influence on what games entire competitive communities play, and these players are all fed up with how bad new games are.
I'm going to agree with Clonesa. I like the bunnyhopping and had a ton of fun as I became better at it in NS1, but it's not in fact a good game mechanic. It's bug gone 'pro', an obscure mechanic that can't be properly explained to a new player.
If people are feeling so strongly about it, I suggest coming up with a playable solution so that UWE can be convinced that bunnyhopping or another implementation would actually work. It would have to start by organizing a modding team, but if people instead of bickering all the time would try and focus their energy on stuff like that then you'd be able to convincingly appeal the devs about the issue.
And no one can say that they don't use ideas from the community, they regularly take up a noticeable portion of the patch changelog.
<!--quoteo(post=1901335:date=Feb 9 2012, 07:44 PM:name=Slithers)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Slithers @ Feb 9 2012, 07:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1901335"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know what UWE is going to about the movemnt factor, but all I know is, myself and like 10 other buddies don't play the game because we were told when we preordered NS2 at the time, that Bunnyhopping and all that fun stuff was going to be implemented. After they receieved their money, we were then told afterwards that there will be no Bunnyhopping or anything like it, basically killing off the main feature NS1 was founded on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I just want to point out that we NEVER EVER said there was going to be bunnyhopping in NS2, so that should not have factored into your pre ordering decision. <!--quoteo(post=1901251:date=Feb 9 2012, 03:31 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Feb 9 2012, 03:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1901251"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i think the main problem with wall jumping for now is that a lot of walls aren't smooth enough for it to work without being perfect (skill floor is too high). it's not intuitive why you're gaining speed at some places and losing speed in others, and it doesn't give the player any feedback on how to get better. so if wall jumping is going to work as a long term solution then i think two things have to happen: wall-walking will have to be smoothed up so that minor bumps don't break your stride, and there needs to be some sort of system by which the player can understand the proper method of getting more boost in the desired direction.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, we agree that for a variety of reasons wall jumping is not working perfectly yet. It had a very initial implementation, that Matso helped us out with, and has not been touched since, due to an overwhelming amount of other game tasks that we are trying to address. It still remains very much on our radar, and hopefully we can get back to it again soon. There is potential there, and it certainly needs refinement. <!--quoteo(post=1901252:date=Feb 9 2012, 03:37 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Feb 9 2012, 03:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1901252"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We fall off way too easy and as you said the walls have even mire geometry now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The walls aren't the only factor in the wall jumping. Crates and railings and other miscellaneous props can be used as well, in places where the walls are further apart. NS2 tends to have a lot more of these kinds of props, and less large empty areas of floor space in big rooms then in NS1, so you should be able to do a lot even without using walls. <!--quoteo(post=1901257:date=Feb 9 2012, 04:01 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Feb 9 2012, 04:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1901257"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Some random thoughts :<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Those are well thought out points, and something we were thinking about in regards to wall hopping. Particularly being able to get from point A to point B by using it that you wouldn't be able to get from normal movement. That was one of the aspects I liked best about the original BH mechanic, as shown is some videos of players making crazy jumps across caverns that they couldn't otherwise make. That is something that I believe should be an aspect of wall jumping, though whether it is working that way yet, I'm not quite sure. <!--quoteo(post=1901282:date=Feb 9 2012, 05:36 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Feb 9 2012, 05:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1901282"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The devs need to put the cards on the table and let us help.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sure, we'd love help. But what we don't need is a constant argument to just make things like NS1. We've presented an alternative to BH, put out a first pass, and you know the direction we want to go in. So instead of focusing on us adding in the exact bugs that led to the BH mechanic, put in some playing time messing around with the current system and suggest ways of improving it. Better yet, whoever is able to, make a mod with improvements. We've been able improve Lerk flight with help from community members, Matso and Schimmel implemented the first pass at the skulk wall hopping that we'd talked about, and we've been considering possibly including Yuuki's fade blink momentum changes.
We are certainly not against skill based movement, and have said that time and time again. In fact, Charlie is always pointing out crazy movement mechanics that he really enjoys in TF2, and other games. We want the added depth it can provide, but we are working with our own engine, which means that all of those quirky movement mechanics that come for free with Source we now have to spend time coding in specifically. We've talked about wanting to add more air control, we've talked about other alien movement abilities that we'd like to improve on, and we know that movement is an area of the game that we want to give more love to, but there are only so many hours in the day, and everything on our giant task list is pretty much a high priority at this point.
A lot of the problem also is the AAA titles are going cross platform and dumbing down the controls for consoles ( thus the hate from pc gamers towards concole gamers)
<!--quoteo(post=1901505:date=Feb 9 2012, 11:49 PM:name=Triggerman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Triggerman @ Feb 9 2012, 11:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1901505"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm going to agree with Clonesa. I like the bunnyhopping and had a ton of fun as I became better at it in NS1, but it's not in fact a good game mechanic. It's bug gone 'pro', an obscure mechanic that can't be properly explained to a new player.
If people are feeling so strongly about it, I suggest coming up with a playable solution so that UWE can be convinced that bunnyhopping or another implementation would actually work. It would have to start by organizing a modding team, but if people instead of bickering all the time would try and focus their energy on stuff like that then you'd be able to convincingly appeal the devs about the issue.
And no one can say that they don't use ideas from the community, they regularly take up a noticeable portion of the patch changelog.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We have offered many solutions and arguments why it should be in. Threads get locked pretty quickly.when bhop is even mentioned. I am surprised the anti bhop trolls havent started here tbh.
@clone - your using a lot of opinions here that i wont argue, but bhop is skill based movement. It isnt intuitive but it can be taught. The skill ceiling for bhop is huge and rewarding when mastered. But i wont go into all that.
BF3 imo is horrible. They add level gains and unlocks so you will have to play their game more than 2 weeks. It is built for console gaming with their psuedo jump button. Is it pretty? Ya. Is it fun? To me. For the first 5 minutes. Then it is the same ol boring game. Spray and pray over aiming. Leveled players have an overwhelming advantage and even on a 64 player server there is no teamwork on pubs.
NS had/has the best community of players i have ever known. I have had the priveledge to play on bothus and euro servers. Both have top notch gamers. All of this will go down the toilet if nothing is done to fix the ns1 for dummies: NS2. It is a watered down shiny version. Compared to other games it is a shining star right now. But since i have played ns1 i am seriously disappointed. I got my hopes up for years following the developement of this sequel. Then again i bet you cant name more than 5 hollywood sequels that are better.
Whether or not bunnyhopping in any form was an intended mechanic in NS1 you can't deny the fact that it worked extremely well for making skulks viable against marines from game start through until lategame. Right now we are all just waiting to see whether or not speeding up the skulks a little or making wall jumping work better will make it so skulks aren't just cannon fodder for the marine team. Now that I have a better system and the game is more stable I can wreck skulks with ease because they have no way of closing distance on me, and I can just mow them down.
I will continue to have faith that the problems with the game will be ironed out before retail as every time this game gets patched it gets better and better to play, but I really wish that the Devs would make a post that expicitly states exactly what their desired goals are for each alien lifeform at laundh.
I specifically want to know if they are happy with skulk movement and if they think that gimping marine movement and adding wall jump will compensate for no bunnyhopping. Also I would like to know if they are happy with the fade blink and the lerk flight model at present. Right now the game is still in beta and the Devs obviously are incredibly busy, especially as they have given themselves a release deadline but I think that letting the community have an idea of what to expect at launch will quell a lot of debate over things like this.
Cory. Thank you for the response. I hope everything turns out how you describe it. I should put more time into you wall hop mechanic. I am stubborn after all and bhop was one of the main reasons i played ns for so long. Turn wall hop into floor hop and i would be sold. I hate the reliance on walls, sure props are there also but with the onos i see a lot of the clutter going away for his movement.
A lot of the anxiety over the game is the 6 month window. As you said, a lot to do, not a lot of hours in the day.
Lastly if i could code i would have helped a long time ago. Im an Air Traffic Controller in tne Air Force with two kids and a wife. Not a lot of time here either lol. Even with all of my negative comments im hoping against hope for you guys.
<!--quoteo(post=1901515:date=Feb 9 2012, 08:17 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Feb 9 2012, 08:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1901515"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@clone - your using a lot of opinions here that i wont argue, but bhop is skill based movement. It isnt intuitive but it can be taught. The skill ceiling for bhop is huge and rewarding when mastered. But i wont go into all that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Of course its my opinion. I'm not going to preface everything with 'imho'. I think people here are a bit more intelligent than that. What 'skill' is in a video game is subjective and this is a forum. If you aren't arguing your opinion on bunnyhopping then what are you doing? O_o
<!--quoteo(post=1901515:date=Feb 9 2012, 08:17 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Feb 9 2012, 08:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1901515"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->BF3 imo is horrible. They add level gains and unlocks so you will have to play their game more than 2 weeks. It is built for console gaming with their psuedo jump button. Is it pretty? Ya. Is it fun? To me. For the first 5 minutes. Then it is the same ol boring game. Spray and pray over aiming. Leveled players have an overwhelming advantage and even on a 64 player server there is no teamwork on pubs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I never said I was a fan of everything about BF3. BF42 is, and probably will always be judging from the direction DICE is head, be my favorite Battlefield. But that is mostly a pacing problem (ugh, instant respawns and instant mass death) and the WW2 theme lends itself to a much more fun and interesting game dynamic. But I give credit where credit is due and the movement in BF3 is great stuff for a realism based game. DICE is leagues ahead of their competitors in that area.
<!--quoteo(post=1901515:date=Feb 9 2012, 08:17 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Feb 9 2012, 08:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1901515"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS had/has the best community of players i have ever known. I have had the priveledge to play on bothus and euro servers. Both have top notch gamers. All of this will go down the toilet if nothing is done to fix the ns1 for dummies: NS2. It is a watered down shiny version. Compared to other games it is a shining star right now. But since i have played ns1 i am seriously disappointed. I got my hopes up for years following the developement of this sequel. Then again i bet you cant name more than 5 hollywood sequels that are better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've participated in a lot of gaming communities and the smaller ones are usually much friendlier and more constructive. That's more of a commentary on anonymity and social interaction than it is on any particular game or individual.
I'd be real happy if they made wall/roof walking easier. Some times I can sidestep up a wall to the roof while running at a marine and when I pull it off most marines don't know how to respond to that. Getting up a wall when I want is not reliable enough yet and Skulks are spending far too much time on the ground.
I'm not sure UWE understands how important the issue of skill-based movement is and what a HUGE role it played in getting NS1 such popularity. Not just popularity but thousands of die-hard fans willing to DONATE their money to you. And BUY a game that was just a whisper when offered. The RTS/FPS hybrid with a Marine/Alien backdrop got people interested but the game's fascinating mechanics kept them interested.
There was a freedom and economy of movement in NS1 that just isn't present in NS2. Movement like that of NS1 is what defined the experience of playing an Alien. I mean that's all an Alien is, really, its movement. Once you're in close the skill-based aiming threshold is just not that high - you're pretty much going to hit the Marine. What made the game exciting was HOW we got to that Marine. And that aspect had a high skill-threshold. As a Marine in NS1 you had more speed, making the up-close-and-personal battles more complex. But the Aliens got to you faster in NS1 too, so there was just more action in all.
That's what I miss - the speed of the game. That's what defined NS1 for me and it's what NS2 lacks. Don't get me wrong, I'm still going to play the hell out of this game, but not as much as I did NS1. I also don't regret pre-ordering at all, just out of NS1 loyalty and the amount of play I got out of it (check forum join date haha).
<!--quoteo(post=1901218:date=Feb 9 2012, 07:50 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Feb 9 2012, 07:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1901218"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Charged Pounce is an option from any surface and a mechanic could be built in to retain speed. Hari mentioned a traction vs speed idea (not going to lie, i dont completely grasp it). Might need more bar indicators that would clutter the hud *maybe*.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hmm, I'll try to break it down to its bare essentials:
Upon touching down on any surface, and then running on that surface -> Immediately reduce the speed by a tiny amount (so that just bouncing will lose you speed) -> <strike>Traction increases (traction = grip)</strike>, jump power increases, with time spent running on the surface => until maximum <strike>traction</strike> (jump power) -> <strike>Traction</strike> (jump power) increases more slowly when you are moving faster -> Speed decreases with time spent running on the surface => until default running speed The player jumps: -> Jumping adds speed to the player's current speed in the forward direction, proportional to the <strike>traction</strike> (jump power)
Crouching just decelerates you faster, and gains you traction faster. It may also add jump power.
I think that speed itself is a fairly intuitive concept (how quickly you reach somewhere, how quickly your surroundings move), but I suppose you could add visual effects such as blurring at the edges if you wanted (though these should be optional). "Traction" (rather, jump power) can be shown as simply the view-height offset (i.e. the position/distance of the eyes from the surface) - the game already uses this for walljumping. Higher "traction" = lower view-height: maximum "traction" = base view-height.
<!--quoteo(post=1901257:date=Feb 10 2012, 12:01 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Feb 10 2012, 12:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1901257"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Some random thoughts :
<b>Range:</b> As the video (www.ninelegends.com/the-argument-for-bunnyhopping/) shows, the skill based movement stuff should allow to reach some area of interest that are not otherwise reachable, for example jump from railing A to railing B. You can think of skill based movement to have a specific range (in meters) which comes from the velocity increase, the jump force, etc. This range should be matched to the typical map size, for example if the range is 20 centimeters and the typical distance between map objects is two meters your skill based movement is not very useful. So, is the range of the current wall jumping big enough? can you think of some example in summit where it allows you to go from point A to point B ?
<b>Travel time :</b> As an attacking skulk you want to minimize the traveling time from the first point where a marine can see you to the the marine itself. Simply because shorter times means less time for the marine to shoot you. Travel time is given by velocity times distance, so to decrease it you can either increase speed or decrease distance. One problem I can see with the current wall jumping is that going on a wall to get a speed boost often means longer distance to travel, so it's not really useful.
<b>Predictability :</b> You also want to make your trajectory as unpredictable as possible, but we also want to avoid randomness/silliness.
<b>Spam efficiency :</b> Spamming the skill based movement, or failing at using it should be (very) inefficient, otherwise it's not skill based. That's something the current wall jumping is not very good at: you can spam jump to gain speed and do unpredictable trajectories at the same time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> A very nice breakdown.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Gimping marine movement will help but won't solve the problem. The problem is marine aiming. Aim increases with skill and the counter to aim, for skulks, is movement, and right now that doesn't really increase with skill and no amount of wall-hopping will really address the issue. I do think that talk of bunny-hopping is pointless until better air-control is implemented. Leap + Air control might go a very long way to solving the problem.
I agree that the marine needs better movement currently, gimping their movement makes ambush skulking too powerful. Leaping with air control will help but that is a 2 hive solution, and with fades being linked to the second hive skulks are going to need sometime before leap. Working from the current wall hop, I would also like to see the ability allow you to hop from a wall to the floor then to another wall and maintain speed, and make it so two hops on the floor removes your speed. Also the hop could provide a smaller speed and distance bonus per hop but have a slightly higher overall cap, and have the bonus stack. With some changes to the hops and better air control I think the ability could be useful.
I do think there are hit registration issues that once fixed will show how weak the skulk actually is.
<!--quoteo(post=1901701:date=Feb 10 2012, 10:56 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (puzl @ Feb 10 2012, 10:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1901701"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Leap + Air control might go a very long way to solving the problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> They tried leap earlier on and were forced to nerf it heavily to give marines some chance of winning rounds. Maybe with improvement performance the could find some functional combination of leap and air control. I'm quite skeptical about such system working as long term counterpart for aiming, but it's still probably better than the present system.
<!--quoteo(post=1901826:date=Feb 10 2012, 04:25 PM:name=Mkk_Bitestuff)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mkk_Bitestuff @ Feb 10 2012, 04:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1901826"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Working from the current wall hop, I would also like to see the ability allow you to hop from a wall to the floor then to another wall and maintain speed, and make it so two hops on the floor removes your speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That is how it works currently. Whether it works consistently is another issue, but jumping from one surface and hopping once off the floor maintains your speed.
somebody must make bhop mod for ns2, its very clear, and has been clear they refuse to adapt the ns1 movement. Many can agree here when I say certain NS1 elements, the core of the game has to be part of NS2.
And they're planning to release this game this summer, on top of all the engine problems and gameplay design issues including this broken movement I just can't understand their thinking. But its their game, let them dig their own hole, maybe after many failed mistakes they realize it later.
Giving this a little bit more time, say 2-3 months before the end of summer 2012 (supposed release), after that I don't think a (significant) change in mechanics is going to occur, and starting up a mod will be the right course of action.
Comments
Truthfully, I am sick of it and the only reason why I don't play NS2 is not because of the graphics or the netcode or anything else, it's simply because the movement and "feel" of the game is horrendous, it's the biggest turn off since Call of Duty. I just can't do it anymore, I've been gaming since I was 12 years old and I just can't stand by these game developers anymore, that sell out so hard just to make a buck for the mainstream audience. Call me Negative Nancy, a troll, I couldn't care less at this point. I'd rather play nothing than play another game that just sells out to make profit and forgets about what really matters, the gameplay.
I mean CS is 12 years old and the game still has a population that can hold it's own, check the steam statistics. Players continue to go back to it because of the inner gameplay, the skill based movement, the teamwork, the amount of skill each individual gun is required leaving tons of room for evolving as a single player and a team. I don't know what UWE is going to about the movemnt factor, but all I know is, myself and like 10 other buddies don't play the game because we were told when we preordered NS2 at the time, that Bunnyhopping and all that fun stuff was going to be implemented. After they receieved their money, we were then told afterwards that there will be no Bunnyhopping or anything like it, basically killing off the main feature NS1 was founded on.
Skill based gaming is dead, the reason for it boils down to massive waves of noobs handing their money over to game developers. As always, money = the roof of all evil and I truly believe that. I can't even play a video game now a days, the one place tat seems like a free market and a good escape from reality, without having to deal with the bull###### involved. Hollywood is here to destroy the art that we all loved. For those of you that disagree, I feel sorry for you, because truly you never experienced the golden years of gaming. Keep handing these companies your money for gameplay that dies out after 8 months and they rehash another game with a new skin to take more of your money.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I completely agree. It has bothered me as well for sometime now but i never new quite why. It is also why i wont play a FPS on a console. Movement. Take heart though, your preorder wont go to waste. I am more looking forward to the community driven NS:Spark. I try here and there to help but in the end i want that more than NS2. NS2 has strayed too much for me to enjoy it (though they revert back a lot so who knows).
Or Games like BF3, where you turn on Hardcore mode but yet when you shoot a gun, it reveals your position on the map, it's just all of it. The companies only care about the buck and UWE situation, they will have to focus on that more than anybody, since they are not exactly rich and in the market to make their buck, which I completely understand. It's just sickening that so many terrible gamers are cattered too and it literally destroys it for Esports. I mean what game can you honestly say is good for esport gaming in nex generation gaming? Starcraft 2(which imo is complete ######) people are only playing it because there is virtually nothing else to play or contrast it too, so it's an illusion.
The entire industry is one big cess pool of crap, because graphics are always the #1 priority and making it so the 40 year old stay at home father is able to play it aswell, leaving no room for evolving as a player. It's simple, remove all skill, increase the graphics and add in easy mode mechanics that anybody can learn within an hr. Look at Call of Duty, I bet you could hand it over to your dad, ask him to go in a map and shoot a few people and he would probably get a 1:1 ratio.
Now give him cs 1.6 and ask him to kill people, he would more than likely go like 1-40 by the end of the game. There is no hope left in the industry and I am just venting because I want a game so bad like the cs 1.6 / Quake era, but it's never going to happen.
Or Games like BF3, where you turn on Hardcore mode but yet when you shoot a gun, it reveals your position on the map, it's just all of it. The companies only care about the buck and UWE situation, they will have to focus on that more than anybody, since they are not exactly rich and in the market to make their buck, which I completely understand. It's just sickening that so many terrible gamers are cattered too and it literally destroys it for Esports. I mean what game can you honestly say is good for esport gaming in nex generation gaming? Starcraft 2(which imo is complete ######) people are only playing it because there is virtually nothing else to play or contrast it too, so it's an illusion.
The entire industry is one big cess pool of crap, because graphics are always the #1 priority and making it so the 40 year old stay at home father is able to play it aswell, leaving no room for evolving as a player. It's simple, remove all skill, increase the graphics and add in easy mode mechanics that anybody can learn within an hr. Look at Call of Duty, I bet you could hand it over to your dad, ask him to go in a map and shoot a few people and he would probably get a 1:1 ratio.
Now give him cs 1.6 and ask him to kill people, he would more than likely go like 1-40 by the end of the game. There is no hope left in the industry and I am just venting because I want a game so bad like the cs 1.6 / Quake era, but it's never going to happen.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True. Might be why we got NS in the first place. They were gamers who made a game without the notion of selling it. It was a labor of love nor profit. We were lucky enough to play in NS 1's hay day. It was awesome. Sad to think those days are gone and the days of play a game for a month just to move on to another are here. Very sad indeed.
The tf2 system is harder to max than NS1. The mechanic spawned a raft of dedicated jump servers to do nothing but jump. Only a fraction of players can finish the cheval jump map below. After 6:00 is :O.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1FpCbBtwOc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1FpCbBtwOc</a>
As far as skill based games recently the trend is for those games to be dying. As gaming becomes more of an entertainment this is to be expected somewhat. What’s important to note is that e-sports are becoming more popular, and for there to be e-sports there needs to be skill based games. I expect that you will eventually start to see more skillful games being released at some point, as there will be increased demand with the increasing popularity of e-sports. It is sad to see so many games removing any form of skill. I still hold some hope for NS2 retaining some of the skill from NS1, and would really like to see the game become a e-sport team based game, as NS1 was arguably one if not the best team based competitive games. In the end I understand the developers need to make money otherwise there is nothing, so I do not place blame on them for how the game ends up, I only wish to express what I would like to see, and what I think a lot of others would like.
I hear you. They are selling out and you are putting it nicely. I love them too and Money is the root of all evil as we see here.
Here it is being used in real levels.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm-BGnaBCgE" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm-BGnaBCgE</a>
Wasn't your point there is no skill based movement in modern games? Having used both this and bhop in comp i can tell you the combat advantages to learning the techniques are the same. I can also tell you the learning curve on movement for tf2 is longer than learning NS1.
Edit: the biggest difference is you cant dominate in tf2 like ns1 because noob friendly classes (heavy, pryo, spy) and mechanics (e.g. random crits) were put in for that very reason.
You have been using the phrase 'skill-based movement' a lot, but I'm not really sure it actually means much to you. Bunny hopping and bizarre accelerating methods (which usually started out as bugs) are not 'skill-based movement'. The look ridiculous and feel very awkward. They make no sense at all and thats why good players dominate with them. New players have absolutely no way of knowing about such a counter-intuitive system.
as for it being unintuitive, you can make it easier as well as provide integrated tutorials.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1FpCbBtwOc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1FpCbBtwOc</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a joke compared to conc and rocket maps in TFC. TF2 removed 90% of TFC's movement skill. And the tf2 movement system really isn't harder or better than ns1, that's just a map that takes a bit of time to practice. I can just as easily point you to ns bhop maps that have been out for years and only 1 person has beaten recently. I hear players that play in top level teams in TF2 come back to NS and the first they they talk about is how much better the movement is.
What slithers is saying is right, the need to keep up with the standard in graphics is a huge investment and companies need to fit the least common denominator and can't take risks with that kind of money on the line. What every company is unaware of though is that there is a massive competitive fps scene bored to death with every game, just waiting for something good to come out. The top players in these games have a massive influence on what games entire competitive communities play, and these players are all fed up with how bad new games are.
I like the bunnyhopping and had a ton of fun as I became better at it in NS1, but it's not in fact a good game mechanic. It's bug gone 'pro', an obscure mechanic that can't be properly explained to a new player.
If people are feeling so strongly about it, I suggest coming up with a playable solution so that UWE can be convinced that bunnyhopping or another implementation would actually work. It would have to start by organizing a modding team, but if people instead of bickering all the time would try and focus their energy on stuff like that then you'd be able to convincingly appeal the devs about the issue.
And no one can say that they don't use ideas from the community, they regularly take up a noticeable portion of the patch changelog.
I just want to point out that we NEVER EVER said there was going to be bunnyhopping in NS2, so that should not have factored into your pre ordering decision.
<!--quoteo(post=1901251:date=Feb 9 2012, 03:31 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Feb 9 2012, 03:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1901251"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i think the main problem with wall jumping for now is that a lot of walls aren't smooth enough for it to work without being perfect (skill floor is too high). it's not intuitive why you're gaining speed at some places and losing speed in others, and it doesn't give the player any feedback on how to get better. so if wall jumping is going to work as a long term solution then i think two things have to happen: wall-walking will have to be smoothed up so that minor bumps don't break your stride, and there needs to be some sort of system by which the player can understand the proper method of getting more boost in the desired direction.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, we agree that for a variety of reasons wall jumping is not working perfectly yet. It had a very initial implementation, that Matso helped us out with, and has not been touched since, due to an overwhelming amount of other game tasks that we are trying to address. It still remains very much on our radar, and hopefully we can get back to it again soon. There is potential there, and it certainly needs refinement.
<!--quoteo(post=1901252:date=Feb 9 2012, 03:37 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Feb 9 2012, 03:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1901252"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We fall off way too easy and as you said the walls have even mire geometry now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The walls aren't the only factor in the wall jumping. Crates and railings and other miscellaneous props can be used as well, in places where the walls are further apart. NS2 tends to have a lot more of these kinds of props, and less large empty areas of floor space in big rooms then in NS1, so you should be able to do a lot even without using walls.
<!--quoteo(post=1901257:date=Feb 9 2012, 04:01 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Feb 9 2012, 04:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1901257"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Some random thoughts :<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Those are well thought out points, and something we were thinking about in regards to wall hopping. Particularly being able to get from point A to point B by using it that you wouldn't be able to get from normal movement. That was one of the aspects I liked best about the original BH mechanic, as shown is some videos of players making crazy jumps across caverns that they couldn't otherwise make. That is something that I believe should be an aspect of wall jumping, though whether it is working that way yet, I'm not quite sure.
<!--quoteo(post=1901282:date=Feb 9 2012, 05:36 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Feb 9 2012, 05:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1901282"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The devs need to put the cards on the table and let us help.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure, we'd love help. But what we don't need is a constant argument to just make things like NS1. We've presented an alternative to BH, put out a first pass, and you know the direction we want to go in. So instead of focusing on us adding in the exact bugs that led to the BH mechanic, put in some playing time messing around with the current system and suggest ways of improving it. Better yet, whoever is able to, make a mod with improvements. We've been able improve Lerk flight with help from community members, Matso and Schimmel implemented the first pass at the skulk wall hopping that we'd talked about, and we've been considering possibly including Yuuki's fade blink momentum changes.
We are certainly not against skill based movement, and have said that time and time again. In fact, Charlie is always pointing out crazy movement mechanics that he really enjoys in TF2, and other games. We want the added depth it can provide, but we are working with our own engine, which means that all of those quirky movement mechanics that come for free with Source we now have to spend time coding in specifically. We've talked about wanting to add more air control, we've talked about other alien movement abilities that we'd like to improve on, and we know that movement is an area of the game that we want to give more love to, but there are only so many hours in the day, and everything on our giant task list is pretty much a high priority at this point.
So, that's just some thoughts for now.
--Cory
<!--quoteo(post=1901505:date=Feb 9 2012, 11:49 PM:name=Triggerman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Triggerman @ Feb 9 2012, 11:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1901505"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm going to agree with Clonesa.
I like the bunnyhopping and had a ton of fun as I became better at it in NS1, but it's not in fact a good game mechanic. It's bug gone 'pro', an obscure mechanic that can't be properly explained to a new player.
If people are feeling so strongly about it, I suggest coming up with a playable solution so that UWE can be convinced that bunnyhopping or another implementation would actually work. It would have to start by organizing a modding team, but if people instead of bickering all the time would try and focus their energy on stuff like that then you'd be able to convincingly appeal the devs about the issue.
And no one can say that they don't use ideas from the community, they regularly take up a noticeable portion of the patch changelog.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We have offered many solutions and arguments why it should be in. Threads get locked pretty quickly.when bhop is even mentioned. I am surprised the anti bhop trolls havent started here tbh.
@clone - your using a lot of opinions here that i wont argue, but bhop is skill based movement. It isnt intuitive but it can be taught. The skill ceiling for bhop is huge and rewarding when mastered. But i wont go into all that.
BF3 imo is horrible. They add level gains and unlocks so you will have to play their game more than 2 weeks. It is built for console gaming with their psuedo jump button. Is it pretty? Ya. Is it fun? To me. For the first 5 minutes. Then it is the same ol boring game. Spray and pray over aiming. Leveled players have an overwhelming advantage and even on a 64 player server there is no teamwork on pubs.
NS had/has the best community of players i have ever known. I have had the priveledge to play on bothus and euro servers. Both have top notch gamers. All of this will go down the toilet if nothing is done to fix the ns1 for dummies: NS2. It is a watered down shiny version. Compared to other games it is a shining star right now. But since i have played ns1 i am seriously disappointed. I got my hopes up for years following the developement of this sequel. Then again i bet you cant name more than 5 hollywood sequels that are better.
*pardon sp errors. Tablet again.
I will continue to have faith that the problems with the game will be ironed out before retail as every time this game gets patched it gets better and better to play, but I really wish that the Devs would make a post that expicitly states exactly what their desired goals are for each alien lifeform at laundh.
I specifically want to know if they are happy with skulk movement and if they think that gimping marine movement and adding wall jump will compensate for no bunnyhopping. Also I would like to know if they are happy with the fade blink and the lerk flight model at present. Right now the game is still in beta and the Devs obviously are incredibly busy, especially as they have given themselves a release deadline but I think that letting the community have an idea of what to expect at launch will quell a lot of debate over things like this.
Thank you for the response. I hope everything turns out how you describe it. I should put more time into you wall hop mechanic. I am stubborn after all and bhop was one of the main reasons i played ns for so long. Turn wall hop into floor hop and i would be sold. I hate the reliance on walls, sure props are there also but with the onos i see a lot of the clutter going away for his movement.
A lot of the anxiety over the game is the 6 month window. As you said, a lot to do, not a lot of hours in the day.
Lastly if i could code i would have helped a long time ago. Im an Air Traffic Controller in tne Air Force with two kids and a wife. Not a lot of time here either lol. Even with all of my negative comments im hoping against hope for you guys.
Of course its my opinion. I'm not going to preface everything with 'imho'. I think people here are a bit more intelligent than that. What 'skill' is in a video game is subjective and this is a forum. If you aren't arguing your opinion on bunnyhopping then what are you doing? O_o
<!--quoteo(post=1901515:date=Feb 9 2012, 08:17 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Feb 9 2012, 08:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1901515"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->BF3 imo is horrible. They add level gains and unlocks so you will have to play their game more than 2 weeks. It is built for console gaming with their psuedo jump button. Is it pretty? Ya. Is it fun? To me. For the first 5 minutes. Then it is the same ol boring game. Spray and pray over aiming. Leveled players have an overwhelming advantage and even on a 64 player server there is no teamwork on pubs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never said I was a fan of everything about BF3. BF42 is, and probably will always be judging from the direction DICE is head, be my favorite Battlefield. But that is mostly a pacing problem (ugh, instant respawns and instant mass death) and the WW2 theme lends itself to a much more fun and interesting game dynamic. But I give credit where credit is due and the movement in BF3 is great stuff for a realism based game. DICE is leagues ahead of their competitors in that area.
<!--quoteo(post=1901515:date=Feb 9 2012, 08:17 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Feb 9 2012, 08:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1901515"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS had/has the best community of players i have ever known. I have had the priveledge to play on bothus and euro servers. Both have top notch gamers. All of this will go down the toilet if nothing is done to fix the ns1 for dummies: NS2. It is a watered down shiny version. Compared to other games it is a shining star right now. But since i have played ns1 i am seriously disappointed. I got my hopes up for years following the developement of this sequel. Then again i bet you cant name more than 5 hollywood sequels that are better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've participated in a lot of gaming communities and the smaller ones are usually much friendlier and more constructive. That's more of a commentary on anonymity and social interaction than it is on any particular game or individual.
I'm not sure UWE understands how important the issue of skill-based movement is and what a HUGE role it played in getting NS1 such popularity. Not just popularity but thousands of die-hard fans willing to DONATE their money to you. And BUY a game that was just a whisper when offered. The RTS/FPS hybrid with a Marine/Alien backdrop got people interested but the game's fascinating mechanics kept them interested.
There was a freedom and economy of movement in NS1 that just isn't present in NS2. Movement like that of NS1 is what defined the experience of playing an Alien. I mean that's all an Alien is, really, its movement. Once you're in close the skill-based aiming threshold is just not that high - you're pretty much going to hit the Marine. What made the game exciting was HOW we got to that Marine. And that aspect had a high skill-threshold. As a Marine in NS1 you had more speed, making the up-close-and-personal battles more complex. But the Aliens got to you faster in NS1 too, so there was just more action in all.
That's what I miss - the speed of the game. That's what defined NS1 for me and it's what NS2 lacks. Don't get me wrong, I'm still going to play the hell out of this game, but not as much as I did NS1. I also don't regret pre-ordering at all, just out of NS1 loyalty and the amount of play I got out of it (check forum join date haha).
Hmm, I'll try to break it down to its bare essentials:
Upon touching down on any surface, and then running on that surface
-> Immediately reduce the speed by a tiny amount (so that just bouncing will lose you speed)
-> <strike>Traction increases (traction = grip)</strike>, jump power increases, with time spent running on the surface => until maximum <strike>traction</strike> (jump power)
-> <strike>Traction</strike> (jump power) increases more slowly when you are moving faster
-> Speed decreases with time spent running on the surface => until default running speed
The player jumps:
-> Jumping adds speed to the player's current speed in the forward direction, proportional to the <strike>traction</strike> (jump power)
Crouching just decelerates you faster, and gains you traction faster. It may also add jump power.
I think that speed itself is a fairly intuitive concept (how quickly you reach somewhere, how quickly your surroundings move), but I suppose you could add visual effects such as blurring at the edges if you wanted (though these should be optional).
"Traction" (rather, jump power) can be shown as simply the view-height offset (i.e. the position/distance of the eyes from the surface) - the game already uses this for walljumping. Higher "traction" = lower view-height: maximum "traction" = base view-height.
<!--quoteo(post=1901257:date=Feb 10 2012, 12:01 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Feb 10 2012, 12:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1901257"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Some random thoughts :
<b>Range:</b> As the video (www.ninelegends.com/the-argument-for-bunnyhopping/) shows, the skill based movement stuff should allow to reach some area of interest that are not otherwise reachable, for example jump from railing A to railing B. You can think of skill based movement to have a specific range (in meters) which comes from the velocity increase, the jump force, etc. This range should be matched to the typical map size, for example if the range is 20 centimeters and the typical distance between map objects is two meters your skill based movement is not very useful.
So, is the range of the current wall jumping big enough? can you think of some example in summit where it allows you to go from point A to point B ?
<b>Travel time :</b> As an attacking skulk you want to minimize the traveling time from the first point where a marine can see you to the the marine itself. Simply because shorter times means less time for the marine to shoot you.
Travel time is given by velocity times distance, so to decrease it you can either increase speed or decrease distance. One problem I can see with the current wall jumping is that going on a wall to get a speed boost often means longer distance to travel, so it's not really useful.
<b>Predictability :</b> You also want to make your trajectory as unpredictable as possible, but we also want to avoid randomness/silliness.
<b>Spam efficiency :</b> Spamming the skill based movement, or failing at using it should be (very) inefficient, otherwise it's not skill based. That's something the current wall jumping is not very good at: you can spam jump to gain speed and do unpredictable trajectories at the same time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A very nice breakdown.
I do think there are hit registration issues that once fixed will show how weak the skulk actually is.
They tried leap earlier on and were forced to nerf it heavily to give marines some chance of winning rounds. Maybe with improvement performance the could find some functional combination of leap and air control. I'm quite skeptical about such system working as long term counterpart for aiming, but it's still probably better than the present system.
Skulks need skill based movements like Air control. Fades just need a nerf.
That is how it works currently. Whether it works consistently is another issue, but jumping from one surface and hopping once off the floor maintains your speed.
--Cory
somebody must make bhop mod for ns2, its very clear, and has been clear they refuse to adapt the ns1 movement. Many can agree here when I say certain NS1 elements, the core of the game has to be part of NS2.
And they're planning to release this game this summer, on top of all the engine problems and gameplay design issues including this broken movement I just can't understand their thinking. But its their game, let them dig their own hole, maybe after many failed mistakes they realize it later.