swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2012
Aliens are definitly too weak on one hive at the moment, I think the one solution is to untie the lifeforms from the hive. However, to prevent 80% of the players popping as fades at the same time, you could add a cost increase per lifeform/weapon. So the first fade would be 50 res, next would be 60, and the rest of them 70 res. If that would be done for all lifeforms and marine weapon cost, it would bring tactical decisions to buying weapons. And it would prevent full teams popping a specific lifeform or weapon at the same time. Also, the shotgun is currently too strong. 1 shot for a skulk/lerk 2 shots for a gorge/fade I think the shotgun kill requirements should be: 1 shot for a skulk 2 shots for a lerk/gorge(or 1 shot and some damage from a rifle) 3 shots for a fade(or 2 shots and some damage from a rifle) The shotgun is really a sniper at the moment, I think if you nerf the base damage, it would help on that too.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Adding delay like that will probably make the fade feel unresponsive, it's poor solution because it can make players annoyed and they may not relize there is a delay. It's better to fine tune the mechanics that are already in place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's already in, since a long time (a few builds after fade was introduced). There is a one second delay starting from the blink start. It means you can blink one second, go out of blink, and blink again immediately (except for some animation bugs, but I'm not sure they are still in). But is you blink half a second you have to wait half a second to blink again. Here :
<!--quoteo(post=1905470:date=Feb 21 2012, 10:55 AM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Feb 21 2012, 10:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905470"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aliens are definitly too weak on one hive at the moment, I think the one solution is to untie the lifeforms from the hive. However, to prevent 80% of the players popping as fades at the same time, you could add a cost increase per lifeform/weapon. So the first fade would be 50 res, next would be 60, and the rest of them 70 res. If that would be done for all lifeforms and marine weapon cost, it would bring tactical decisions to buying weapons. And it would prevent full teams popping a specific lifeform or weapon at the same time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I can see where this is comming from but I don't agree. If fade blink and frenzy is adjusted fade won't be as much of a powerhouse as they are now. Their damage may have to be scaled down a tiny bit so they cant kill lvl 1 armor marines in 2 hits and add an upgrade to increase their damage(maybe change frenzy) simular to focus. On single have they would not be able to use both at the same time, so they will eather have carapace and survive or be fragile with damage. Marines have still to reach their full potencial when the peformance is maxed so they will probably become even more powerful, a single fade won't be able to stop them.
Also the aliens will have to balance their early strategy with gorges/lerks/fades numbers. This will give aliens more options how they want to start the game. If they decide all to go fade marines will simply take down all their rts's since they won't have any adv lifeforms to support the skulks. It also takes longer time for fades to appear if there are more players on the server, so it won't be an issue there. Of course some numbers will need to be adjusted but thats much easier to have flawed/incosistance/annoying mechanics. Unlocking the lifeforms will give this game much more depth to play with. + 2nd hive will still be really viable for more chambers upgrades, map control, infestation spread, more powerful alien abilties and more. If the alien commander drop's chambers to make their lifeforms more powerful then the 2nd hive will arrive much later.
I also think skulks should be able to get chamber upgrades for free, othervice they will never be used on skulks. It makes the early chamber selection matter more.
Edit: Considering the infromation Swalk added about the shotgun: <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1 shot for a skulk/lerk 2 shots for a gorge/fade I think the shotgun kill requirements should be: 1 shot for a skulk 2 shots for a lerk/gorge(or 1 shot and some damage from a rifle) 3 shots for a fade(or 2 shots and some damage from a rifle) The shotgun is really a sniper at the moment, I think if you nerf the base damage, it would help on that too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with 2 shots on gorge/lerk and the 3 shots on fade + lmg. It might alright to allow shotguns to 2hit fades without carapace with lvl 3 weapons.
I also think shotgun requires more spread so it won't be so good at shooting targets down at range, it's not uncommon to hit more than half of your pellets in long range shooting.
imo the jump from 1 to 2 hives is too great, its usually GG for marines soon as a 2nd hive is up. If marines stop 2nd hive going up once or twice, marines will win quickly after that.
But hopefully this will change soon as HMG's are added and exosuite to balance it out.
and if the marines stop 2nd hive aliens could look forward to other side grades like celerity to keep it somewhat even or will that be a hive requirement?.
<!--quoteo(post=1905488:date=Feb 21 2012, 10:07 AM:name=Codeine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Codeine @ Feb 21 2012, 10:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905488"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->imo the jump from 1 to 2 hives is too great, its usually GG for marines soon as a 2nd hive is up. If marines stop 2nd hive going up once or twice, marines will win quickly after that.
But hopefully this will change soon as HMG's are added and exosuite to balance it out.
and if the marines stop 2nd hive aliens could look forward to other side grades like celerity to keep it somewhat even or will that be a hive requirement?.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This will also change with the welder. Since hit and runs against buildings will be less usefull.
I understand that aliens feel weak if they don't get the second hive up. On the other hand it's really hard to directly balance that since in my opinion it could easily ruin early game balance if you make them stronger with one hive. And actually I think it is right to be punished if you don't manage to get a second hive up. I feel that the game at the moment is a lot more punishing for marines anyway. I feel it's easier for aliens to come back if something went wrong than it is for marines.
In the end, even though I disagree that <b>at the moment</b> Aliens are too weak (they should be at an disadvantage if the don't get the second hive!) we better wait for all the tech to be implemented first, then we can have a really useful discussion about balancing.
The balance overall is really all over the place, each team as very strange weaknesses that make the game frustrating to play at times. I think that overall 1 hive aliens are better than no tech marines, which allows them to play more aggressive early game and lead to more alien wins, even if marines with sgs are better than 1 hive aliens. Being able to have instant shotguns is dumb. Marine upgrades are kinda out of place as the higher tier weapons are so much cheaper to get and are way better. Fade should have a little more HP/armor but are already overpowered with teleport blink. Lerk is just meh and does not seem to have a clear role, crop duster spores are deathtrap and spikes are annoying IMO. The gorge is actually one of the few lifeforms that i think has a very clear role currently, with the energy limitations on the AC a good gorge is required and their mobile healing is invaluable for keeping strong pressure on the marines, plus bilebomb is quite powerful. The aliens spawn slow which can have a single mistake costing them the game too easily. CC hp is quite low and can be killed rather easily by coordinated aliens, esp if the kill the obs or if one wasnt dropped due to lack of starting res.
Regarding alien lifeforms and hives, they should be unchained, and more should be done to make each lifeform better in conjunction with others, to prevent everyone from going fade or onos, which was something NS1 achieved rather well with lerk/fade/gorge gameplay. I do not think they should increase the cost per each lifeform already on the team, as there are times when a team of fades may be needed and the aliens would be punished for that.
For starters I think the lerk should get a ranged spore. The Devs seem to like cropduster spores, which I do not, however if they wish to leave them then maybe add an alt-fire for those spores that fire some kind of spore-spike, which explodes in a smaller cloud of spores. This will help lerks late game as they can get instakilled spreading cropduster spores. The lerk should also get umbra, which could even work in the same way, cropduster umbra and the spike. This is something that should unlock with the second hive.
Regarding fades, perhaps with one hive they just have swipe/blink, and then once the second hive is complete they gain an ability they can use to regain energy similar to metabolize, but not give back HP. Then their energy can be tweaked to keep them usable on one hive, but not overpowering. I also think some kind of mod like Yuuki's fade mod would make it much better.
For marine I dont really think the shotgun needs a nerf, but since there is little else for marines to buy currently there is no reason not to get them. They shouldnt be something that can be researched instantly, i would almost say there should be two tech levels for the armory, one which is researched for say 20 res that then allows you to research shotguns and gls, and another for 20 that allows research of flamers and a heavy machine gun. The resource costs and research time would need to be balanced also, an AA in NS1 was a long research, and the same is not true in NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=1905499:date=Feb 21 2012, 05:55 PM:name=Tool8)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tool8 @ Feb 21 2012, 05:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905499"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I understand that aliens feel weak if they don't get the second hive up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's funny what you said before: <!--quoteo(post=1905450:date=Feb 21 2012, 02:49 PM:name=Tool8)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tool8 @ Feb 21 2012, 02:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905450"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Seriously, what you are doing is complaining about Aliens being too weak in lategame with only one hive? Lol, that's like complaining that marines can not keep up with aliens with only their base extractor. If aliens don't have that hive at that point, marines have done something ###### right and deserve to win. Fade IS NOT weak. Try to spectate some games and look carefully what happens when second hive goes up and fades enter the field. Before you cry and say aliens are to weak, play more marines. Go and play 10 games as marine in a row. Then come back and tell me if you think you were OP. Did you win most of the games?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> His point is that the aliens are to weak with one hive, not at all. But you start calling him a crybaby, which is trolling, there is no reason to act like a fool like you did. I think the most people are right with some points, but not all alien and marine tech is in the game. I will remember you all about how the game was last year.
<!--quoteo(post=1905385:date=Feb 21 2012, 03:07 AM:name=Skie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skie @ Feb 21 2012, 03:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905385"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One hive for aliens really sucks. But at two hives (if they get there early) they're the kings. I find that this massive gap between one and two hives should be narrowed somehow. Three hives is just icing on the cake at the moment.
The gameplay becomes really predictable because of this, especially in fixed spawns 6vs6 games. In summit, aliens will always try to go for Data Core and marines will always try to plant a phasegate there and in FC. In turtle, it's the Loading rush every time. If marines manage to get the phasegates down and take the hive down, it's pretty much gg. If aliens get the hive up, it's pretty much gg. It always doesn't go like this, but in the majority of the matches it does.
Gorge has as much health as fade at no carapace, by the way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I say give the Gorge the Bilebomb ability at 1 hive, not 2.
This may be off topic so lets not get too far into it but does it feel like the maps are smaller than the size they were in ns1?
In my games marines just seem to be everywhere and getting that second hive up discreetly is difficult due to the marines just showing up everywhere. Thus aliens getting into the mid game zone almost seems impossible for the *average* team
Nah, try to only walk as marine. You can sprint for 15s now and that is a really long time. Marines just move almost twice as fast as in NS1 because of sprint.
<!--quoteo(post=1905499:date=Feb 21 2012, 12:55 PM:name=Tool8)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tool8 @ Feb 21 2012, 12:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905499"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I understand that aliens feel weak if they don't get the second hive up. On the other hand it's really hard to directly balance that since in my opinion it could easily ruin early game balance if you make them stronger with one hive. And actually I think it is right to be punished if you don't manage to get a second hive up. I feel that the game at the moment is a lot more punishing for marines anyway. I feel it's easier for aliens to come back if something went wrong than it is for marines.
In the end, even though I disagree that <b>at the moment</b> Aliens are too weak (they should be at an disadvantage if the don't get the second hive!) we better wait for all the tech to be implemented first, then we can have a really useful discussion about balancing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i find it quite the opposite actually. Once marines have fully researched their tech tree they have a fairly good shot at pushing back out even if they're limited to 1 rt and aliens have complete map dominance. i've only seen 1 alien comeback from the reverse situation. the other night we had 3 onos in our base, down to 1 rt, and aliens had the entire map, then a lone marine went out and knifed/shot a large number of cysts in the map, and then killed the onoses due to attrition, pushed out with siege cannons, and it was gg.
<!--quoteo(post=1905506:date=Feb 21 2012, 06:10 PM:name=RTV)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RTV @ Feb 21 2012, 06:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905506"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's funny what you said before:
His point is that the aliens are to weak with one hive, not at all. But you start calling him a crybaby, which is trolling, there is no reason to act like a fool like you did. I think the most people are right with some points, but not all alien and marine tech is in the game. I will remember you all about how the game was last year.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not really funny, because you are just taking that sentence out of context. Please don't try to make my posts look inconsistent like that. Of course as an FPS player it can be annoying to be outteched. You will feel weak when the enemy team has all the tech and you are still stuck with the lifeforms you began with. But from an overall perspective that's just they way it's supposed to be. The team that manages to tech up faster than the other should have the advantage.
Oh, and by the way, I didn't start calling him a crybaby. I was just ironically quoting himself:
<!--quoteo(post=1905317:date=Feb 21 2012, 02:48 AM:name=Price)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Price @ Feb 21 2012, 02:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905317"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Before you cry and say no, read this! The whole Text!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1905450:date=Feb 21 2012, 02:49 PM:name=Tool8)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tool8 @ Feb 21 2012, 02:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905450"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Before you cry and say aliens are to weak, play more marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Obviously that didn't come across as intended. :/
<!--quoteo(post=1905450:date=Feb 21 2012, 02:49 PM:name=Tool8)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tool8 @ Feb 21 2012, 02:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905450"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Before you cry and say aliens are to weak, play more marines. Go and play 10 games as marine in a row. Then come back and tell me if you think you were OP. Did you win most of the games?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> whats the internet <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=0u9JAt6gFqM#t=13s" target="_blank">without these trolls...</a> Oh and about "play more marines" hmm, lets check your joindate... 1-January 12 and mine...27-September 03. i bought the special edition, which means i played since the alpha. So i realy know marines and aliens and the marines are now a bit op, as there was techpoints it was a bit harder. Whatever thats my mind so your comment about i cry makes no sense, i don't cry, i just say how it feels.
<!--quoteo(post=1905522:date=Feb 21 2012, 07:56 PM:name=Tool8)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tool8 @ Feb 21 2012, 07:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905522"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Before you cry and say no, read this! The whole Text!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1905522:date=Feb 21 2012, 07:56 PM:name=)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ( @ Feb 21 2012, 07:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905522"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Before you cry and say aliens are to weak, play more marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Obviously that didn't come across as intended. :/ <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So this is not childish what you done? You trolls are so annyoing.
Topic: i repeat but... I think the worst part of aliens is the defence, the alien defence is not very well. hydras are weak and a very bad defence, they only block marines some seconds. Marines defence is way better, only a onos and a gorge can break the marines defence but for that aliens need 3 hives. I don't mean specialy late games, i talk about earlie and middle games. Alien players know what i mean, its hard to take out a marine base, because of sentrys, phase gate and stuff, you don't have any chance only if you got 3 hives. I mean onos and gorge bilebomb are great but aliens get bilebomb to late. The bilebomb idea from Daphisto is very good in my mind. The balancing is not easy, i don't say something diffrent, but i guess there have to chance some big at the early games of aliens.
<!--quoteo(post=1905544:date=Feb 21 2012, 09:36 PM:name=Price)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Price @ Feb 21 2012, 09:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905544"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->whats the internet <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=0u9JAt6gFqM#t=13s" target="_blank">without these trolls...</a> Oh and about "play more marines" hmm, lets check your joindate... 1-January 12 and mine...27-September 03. i bought the special edition, which means i played since the alpha. So i realy know marines and aliens and the marines are now a bit op, as there was techpoints it was a bit harder. Whatever thats my mind so your comment about i cry makes no sense, i don't cry, i just say how it feels.
Obviously that didn't come across as intended. :/
So this is not childish what you done? You trolls are so annyoing.
Topic: i repeat but... I think the worst part of aliens is the defence, the alien defence is not very well. hydras are weak and a very bad defence, they only block marines some seconds. Marines defence is way better, only a onos and a gorge can break the marines defence but for that aliens need 3 hives. I don't mean specialy late games, i talk about earlie and middle games. Alien players know what i mean, its hard to take out a marine base, because of sentrys, phase gate and stuff, you don't have any chance only if you got 3 hives. I mean onos and gorge bilebomb are great but aliens get bilebomb to late. The bilebomb idea from Daphisto is very good in my mind. The balancing is not easy, i don't say something diffrent, but i guess there have to chance some big at the early games of aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is IMO, and what I encountered ingame, wrong.
A base can always be killed by a group of Aliens. Every def has a blindspot, if you find this blindspot and can manage to kill a building you will get new blindspots. Sure Skulks die fast on sentrys, but if they are suported by a gorge and a lerk, they can destroy alot of buildings on 1 Hive. And think about cloak. Get 5 cloaked skulks in the marine base and chew down the CC in seconds.
Since the gorilla update we have alot of new players and many of the like to play aliens and those players are weak, especially on PUBs you can see this. If you have a pro fade, lerk, skulk and one gorge, they will destroy a team of 8 to 10 low-midskill players. IMO if NS2 is played competive aliens seem to be OP, and not the marines.
<!--quoteo(post=1905553:date=Feb 21 2012, 10:04 PM:name=Floodinator)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Floodinator @ Feb 21 2012, 10:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905553"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That is IMO, and what I encountered ingame, wrong.
A base can always be killed by a group of Aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Lol...yeah and 8 marines can always be killed by a group of Aliens... Your comment make sense...not.
Please read the whole topic and then write.
There a lot of good points which show you whats the problem with aliens and marines.
Please stop being so self-righteous, Price. Stop assuming nobody read your text. We did. But obviously it's not as convincing for everybody, as it is for you. Please just accept that there are people who have a different opinion. It's no good calling people trolls and try to damage their reputation, if they don't share your opinion, because honestly, if you think I am trolling, better read your own last 2 posts again. Just don't behave like that, if I made a joke that didn't come across, I'm sorry for that, but becoming personal is no good form.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited February 2012
price did you write a thread just so you could be condescending to people? you even start your OP with flaming language like "before you cry" and then you laugh at people's opinions and tell them to re read your op without a counter argument or point from you, as if you only need to laugh at them - this is not needed and the attitude is all wrong, come on man, floodinator was not being disrespectful - you are though.
as far as the topic goes: i have played enough games (all day long pretty much for the past two weeks) to disagree with the point of your thread. your concerns are understandable ofc but i believe you are not considering some factors. to start with, floodinator is correct, mid game, equal map control on mineshaft with 2 hives, i started fading and was able to have better defense than any hydra could. i literally told my team "dont worry about crushing machine, i can handle any group they send this way" and i could and i did. i racked up so many kills without dying as a fade defending with nary a gorge or skulk to assist. in the meantime while i found wave after wave coming from refinery, the rest of the team launched an attack on their CC in drill repair and they could not beacon in time with those bile bombs. end of game.
i have seen that scenario soooo many times in the past weeks. tug of war for map control back and forth, yada yada, doesnt matter to what degree or level either team is at one sneaky group of individuals, either some shotgun hive rushing marines or a couple of bile bombing gorges with support, the hive or CC goes down WAYYY too fast! and the round is over(<i>usually more when its the CC as marines dont have enough res/ incentive to build two points to spawn like aliens</i>). the onos is not responsible for this most of the time - he usually pops his head in like the US did at the end of WWII, way late to the game but bolstering morale and motivation while providing a distraction and mild support. (unless that player actually focuses on weapon 2 on the CC, which most pubbers dont *supporting floodinator*)
<b>now, to address your points in your op, specifically</b>
<i>"The problem is, aliens are helpless with just one hive."</i> skulk rushes?? theyre a huge problem right now and they are, as far as ive seen lately, a large part of competitive matches, unfortunately. its just too easy to pull off.
<i>"The aliens are doomed because there is no counterpart to sentrys or jetpacks or mines with just one hive."</i> you're forgetting that this scenario<u> never happens</u>. when aliens have just one hive, marines dont usually have phasegates unless a hive has been taken down or the commander is new, and at this time marines DEFINITELY wont have jetpacks as nothing in the game takes more teamres. It takes an advanced armory (30), protolab (40), and JP research (35) for a grand total of 105 TRes also, if they decide to put down mines and sentrys in base while aliens have just one hive (Early game still) they have just spent a lot of tres and pres that will give aliens the advantage as long as they still gain harvesters which ARENT going to be threatened by base defenses and they will win later on. so far this is the only way to truly stop skulk rushes which is a shame as it gives an early lead to aliens in regards to res (and precious time building which could be used to cap res)
<i>"If im alien, what can i do to take out just one little (second-)base of marines?"</i> uh.. <b>you're not supposed to??</b> its a team game.
<i>"But a fade is also very weak, i mean take a look at the balance stuff:"</i> thank god he's weak on paper, because in practice, in hands of a skilled player, he is godly. paper does not account for his abilities in conjunction with marines, i.e. practicality
<i>"If the lerk has umbra with hive 2, this would change a lot, "</i> this, i whole heartedly agree! he needs it. but he needs it to protect his underbelly too while he sprays, as a room of marines or sentries would otherwise have no issue taking him down. i think umbra is still planned?
<i>"its pointless if marines just have a arc, grenade launcher or flamethrower, which can researched and purchased without leaving the base."</i> i'm sure i'm not getting your point because it seems like you are just pointing out a counter and wondering why there isnt a counter to a counter. its like saying "marines build mines and sentries and PGs but its pointless if aliens just have bile bomb, skulk rushes or onos, and can gestate/upgrade without leaving base" well... yea? thats how its designed. the counter to a counter in this case is teamwork.
<i>"So marines can just defend and stay in base..."</i> not true IMO, and in fact i don't ever seen marines just stay in base when a round starts, dedicated to turtling. they only turtle in the last moments when the game is lost in their eyes.
<i>"But i want say that marines don't need to spread out very much, they just have to kill rts/build rts and wait...wait for the new tech."</i> thats literally the same exact thing needed for aliens except for one major imbalance: the need for techpoints! and believe me i hear you on this one, marines need more importance placed on techpoints somehow, they need more incentive for map control besides "Deny aliens res" and they need multiple points of spawning, just like aliens. the incentive has been removed many patches ago for reasons i cant remember
<i>"I like cysts, but they are way to weak, they should get more Healthpoints in my opinion, 1-2 marines kill a cysts very very fast...can you say that for a powernode?"</i> <b>youre forgetting that there are many many cysts, and only a few powernodes</b>. i bet if you counted the time it took, travel time included as well as time needed to destroy a chain of cysts to prevent a room of structures from being able to grow back (similar goal for powernodes) you would find that time is somewhat on par with taking down a powernode. its not equality, its asymmetry.
so yea, i disagree with your OP mostly, and believe you are not considering these other factors (like paper balance of fade vs in game) but i do agree, however that techpoints need to have more importance to marines currently other than just denying them to aliens - <u>but this does not make "aliens too weak"!!</u> especially when not all the features are in place like umbra. Like floodinator said, pubbers are still learning... last night and the day before were the first times ive seen in a pub game thus far where marines actually established a 2nd base for the sake of a 2nd base. <b>aliens still won.</b>
I am finding in this current build (197?) that on Mineshaft, Aliens seem to win a lot (maybe because of the positioning of the hive locations?) and on Tram and Summit, Marines win more.
Anyone know if UWE is keeping track of Alien and Marine wins/losses on a per-map basis?
I think it's balanced.. it's starting to remind me a lot of NS1 where you really need team cooperation to accel in area denial.. the weaker a team is the more they will be denied access to an area they used to control. Unfortunately it's frustrating with new players.. but I don't think the weakness of either side is because of the available feats.. I lost as marine one time because my teammates were having frame rate issues.. I had no problem shotgunning 3 fades 40+ times for only 1 kill.... (would have been a lot more if teammates wouldn't block the shots with their head). I considered it target practice though because I know if I were in a more powerful team we would have won for sure. I agree with Price somewhat where I believe that marines are favored, but they are only as strong as the balance of skill overflow... if the entire alien team is weak, you can win with just 1 good marine player, but as soon as the aliens get 3~4 players cooperating nicely that 1 good player isn't going to cut it anymore.. I don't care how good he is - he's not going to stop 3 fades a skulk and a gorge if his other teammates aren't dealing enough damage.
Are the aliens too weak? Currently, I don't think so.. I consider them "A force to be reckoned with". However, on a good team (equally skilled on both teams) I think the aliens are always the underdogs simply because the Onos can't fly. :P that's map dependant though, sometimes that's a non-issue.
<!--quoteo(post=1905587:date=Feb 21 2012, 05:39 PM:name=Daphisto)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Daphisto @ Feb 21 2012, 05:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905587"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am finding in this current build (197?) that on Mineshaft, Aliens seem to win a lot (maybe because of the positioning of the hive locations?) and on Tram and Summit, Marines win more.
Anyone know if UWE is keeping track of Alien and Marine wins/losses on a per-map basis?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Having played a bit I would say the only reason that aliens seem stronger at all is due to hit detection still being a little wonky at times. That and the fact that the smaller maps and the slower movement of players on both teams pushes the advantage into the aliens favour early game. Countering this is the fact that skulks are pretty slow and predictable, lerks don't have good damage and die pretty easy, and new fade blink means that they just walk at you swiping. These 3 things make the fact that marines can just buy shotguns pretty much whenever they want really powerful.
<!--quoteo(post=1905411:date=Feb 21 2012, 05:41 AM:name=Slithers)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Slithers @ Feb 21 2012, 05:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905411"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I will go in to a bit of detail for you
First off, when dealing with each side, you have to always take in to consideration in any game you play, how experienced are the players you're playing with? -Teamwork -Individual Skill -Commander Experience -Map Control -Ventrilo + Friends ( Playing on one team )
These factors should always be considered. I have seen both factions take hard knocks making the faction your on, look timid and weak, this revolves around the list I have provided above. One player alone can set the pace of a team, one commander who takes charge, knows what he is doing can lead a pack of infants to the game and make them prevail, it is all decided on who your playing with.
Like any game, these rules will always apply, especially when there are so many factors to consider in a game like NS2, it isn't just an FPS, it also an RTS and an Arena type game when you really step back and look at the big picture. Right now as it stands, I think both factions are relatively balanced. Could some tweaks be done? sure, but I could even say that about modern games that have been out for years, just learn what is the other teams weakness and what needs to be done on your side to help your team win.
The game isn't finished, allow UWE to do what they do best, balance and create the game we all want to love.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Could you maybe...go into <b>more </b>detail? It's no use speaking in generalities/ideals in a discussion like this.
You didn't explain how any of those things allow aliens to transcend the horrible mechanics that are cysts and egg spawns.
I've played plenty of games competitively, with voice communication and all that, and it's pretty obvious that with the way the game is set up now it isn't enough. The point isn't to discuss how a coordinated team in a pub can stomp an uncoordinated team (because communication beats the game mechanics in that case yada yada yada). The point is to discuss what happens when two coordinated teams fight, and the marines decide to kill every egg and skulk with shotguns, then win the game in a predictable and really easy way. Or we could talk about how 1 or more players have to sink all their pres in order for the aliens to get res towers as fast as marines do, and with more sources of vulnerability (cysts as compared to res towers with nanoshield on them). These are all things that don't change as the level of teamwork reaches its peak.
And as for "The game isn't finished" <b>we know that! </b>We're offering feedback as part of the beta experience, instead of just taking it for granted as a way to play the game slightly earlier.
<!--quoteo(post=1905511:date=Feb 21 2012, 01:28 PM:name=assbda)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (assbda @ Feb 21 2012, 01:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905511"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This may be off topic so lets not get too far into it but does it feel like the maps are smaller than the size they were in ns1?
In my games marines just seem to be everywhere and getting that second hive up discreetly is difficult due to the marines just showing up everywhere. Thus aliens getting into the mid game zone almost seems impossible for the *average* team<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a good example of where the "teamwork" argument <b>does </b>apply. If you think you're getting your hive up 'discreetly' it's because the other team is failing to exercise all their options. For the cost of a lerk, the marines can make enough observatories to scan all the possible hive sites regularly. For the cost of a gorge, they can make 1 observatory and scan at specific times when you would want to expand (this is a classic RTS concept). They can even use players/MACs to scout for hives.
You basically can't "hide" a building hive. There's no ability for the aliens that truly allows you to do that. Therefore you have to protect it using your team's actual resources (players, flanking attacks, distractions etc). This is something that can be done, and it's very well balanced because the effort you put in to defend has to be matched or exceeded by the effort the marines put into attacking (there isn't a mechanic that says "if you can dump 10 pistol bullets into this stationary object, the hive doesn't go up and the aliens lose", like with cysts/eggs).
<b>Here's a fun idea to keep in the back of your mind:</b> when the shift is added and every skulk has celerity in the early game, 90% of the people playing marines and shotgun rushing right now won't stand a chance and the game will *appear* balanced again, even if the core issues aren't addressed. Whether that's good or bad isn't as important as the fact that 50mph skulks are going to be biting heads.
<!--quoteo(post=1905664:date=Feb 21 2012, 09:30 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Feb 21 2012, 09:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905664"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is a good example of where the "teamwork" argument <b>does </b>apply. If you think you're getting your hive up 'discreetly' it's because the other team is failing to exercise all their options. For the cost of a lerk, the marines can make enough observatories to scan all the possible hive sites regularly. For the cost of a gorge, they can make 1 observatory and scan at specific times when you would want to expand (this is a classic RTS concept). They can even use players/MACs to scout for hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wonder what the stats show for win/loss ratio on NS2 games at the moment.
If aliens are indeed weak with only 1 hive but generally win 50% of games against marines then maybe hive 2+ is too strong.
Mind you Exo suits aren't in the game yet.
Personal skill as well is a big factor, marines could be doing better because the masses are used to FPS shooters with guns but not running around meleeing stuff.
Each side needs to play with their strengths. Skulks aren't meant to charge head on into marine's gunfire. Map structure would heavily factor in which side had the uper-hand. Long hallways with minimal vents would favour marines, claustrophobic maps with a lot of turns, short corridors, lots of vents would favour skulks etc.
<!--quoteo(post=1905451:date=Feb 21 2012, 08:52 AM:name=Floodinator)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Floodinator @ Feb 21 2012, 08:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905451"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skulks. They need to para everything. The role of the skulk in early game is to kill as many rts as possible and ambush marines. If the marines are busy rebuilding and defending RTs they don't have the time for other thing. If they don't react on the RTs getting killed its GG.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so if marines arent leaving base, skulks are supposed to sit in a corner and wait?
<!--quoteo(post=1905767:date=Feb 22 2012, 09:08 AM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Feb 22 2012, 09:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905767"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->so if marines arent leaving base, skulks are supposed to sit in a corner and wait?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Depends on the situation, but almost always I'd say the answer to this is yes. You are supposed to gather res for better upgrades/lifeforms and the kill the marines. A group of 5 marines + 1 comm, if camping in base, should be able to take down a swarm of skulks.
Of course if CC is very low, if it's a last ditch effort, or if there's only a couple of marines and it's very early game, or if you have just timing pushed cara for the entire team, then rushing is justifiable. Otherwise losing 5-6 eggs suddenly is really bad if you're on one hive.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1905767:date=Feb 22 2012, 08:08 AM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Feb 22 2012, 08:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905767"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->so if marines arent leaving base, skulks are supposed to sit in a corner and wait?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake." - Bonaparte
Yea. If the marines are sitting in the base, waiting for you to attack ... then yea. Wait. Your commander is busy expanding and getting the res for your second hive... your egg stock is increasing, and you are getting stronger all the time.
Sooner or later, the marines WILL have to move out.
Comments
However, to prevent 80% of the players popping as fades at the same time, you could add a cost increase per lifeform/weapon.
So the first fade would be 50 res, next would be 60, and the rest of them 70 res.
If that would be done for all lifeforms and marine weapon cost, it would bring tactical decisions to buying weapons.
And it would prevent full teams popping a specific lifeform or weapon at the same time.
Also, the shotgun is currently too strong.
1 shot for a skulk/lerk
2 shots for a gorge/fade
I think the shotgun kill requirements should be:
1 shot for a skulk
2 shots for a lerk/gorge(or 1 shot and some damage from a rifle)
3 shots for a fade(or 2 shots and some damage from a rifle)
The shotgun is really a sniper at the moment, I think if you nerf the base damage, it would help on that too.
It's already in, since a long time (a few builds after fade was introduced). There is a one second delay starting from the blink start. It means you can blink one second, go out of blink, and blink again immediately (except for some animation bugs, but I'm not sure they are still in). But is you blink half a second you have to wait half a second to blink again. Here :
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->local minTimePassed = Shared.GetTime() - self.etherealStartTime >= Blink.kMinEnterEtherealTime<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
However, to prevent 80% of the players popping as fades at the same time, you could add a cost increase per lifeform/weapon.
So the first fade would be 50 res, next would be 60, and the rest of them 70 res.
If that would be done for all lifeforms and marine weapon cost, it would bring tactical decisions to buying weapons.
And it would prevent full teams popping a specific lifeform or weapon at the same time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can see where this is comming from but I don't agree. If fade blink and frenzy is adjusted fade won't be as much of a powerhouse as they are now. Their damage may have to be scaled down a tiny bit so they cant kill lvl 1 armor marines in 2 hits and add an upgrade to increase their damage(maybe change frenzy) simular to focus. On single have they would not be able to use both at the same time, so they will eather have carapace and survive or be fragile with damage.
Marines have still to reach their full potencial when the peformance is maxed so they will probably become even more powerful, a single fade won't be able to stop them.
Also the aliens will have to balance their early strategy with gorges/lerks/fades numbers. This will give aliens more options how they want to start the game. If they decide all to go fade marines will simply take down all their rts's since they won't have any adv lifeforms to support the skulks. It also takes longer time for fades to appear if there are more players on the server, so it won't be an issue there.
Of course some numbers will need to be adjusted but thats much easier to have flawed/incosistance/annoying mechanics.
Unlocking the lifeforms will give this game much more depth to play with.
+
2nd hive will still be really viable for more chambers upgrades, map control, infestation spread, more powerful alien abilties and more. If the alien commander drop's chambers to make their lifeforms more powerful then the 2nd hive will arrive much later.
I also think skulks should be able to get chamber upgrades for free, othervice they will never be used on skulks. It makes the early chamber selection matter more.
Edit:
Considering the infromation Swalk added about the shotgun:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1 shot for a skulk/lerk
2 shots for a gorge/fade
I think the shotgun kill requirements should be:
1 shot for a skulk
2 shots for a lerk/gorge(or 1 shot and some damage from a rifle)
3 shots for a fade(or 2 shots and some damage from a rifle)
The shotgun is really a sniper at the moment, I think if you nerf the base damage, it would help on that too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with 2 shots on gorge/lerk and the 3 shots on fade + lmg. It might alright to allow shotguns to 2hit fades without carapace with lvl 3 weapons.
I also think shotgun requires more spread so it won't be so good at shooting targets down at range, it's not uncommon to hit more than half of your pellets in long range shooting.
But hopefully this will change soon as HMG's are added and exosuite to balance it out.
and if the marines stop 2nd hive aliens could look forward to other side grades like celerity to keep it somewhat even or will that be a hive requirement?.
But hopefully this will change soon as HMG's are added and exosuite to balance it out.
and if the marines stop 2nd hive aliens could look forward to other side grades like celerity to keep it somewhat even or will that be a hive requirement?.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This will also change with the welder. Since hit and runs against buildings will be less usefull.
In the end, even though I disagree that <b>at the moment</b> Aliens are too weak (they should be at an disadvantage if the don't get the second hive!) we better wait for all the tech to be implemented first, then we can have a really useful discussion about balancing.
Regarding alien lifeforms and hives, they should be unchained, and more should be done to make each lifeform better in conjunction with others, to prevent everyone from going fade or onos, which was something NS1 achieved rather well with lerk/fade/gorge gameplay. I do not think they should increase the cost per each lifeform already on the team, as there are times when a team of fades may be needed and the aliens would be punished for that.
For starters I think the lerk should get a ranged spore. The Devs seem to like cropduster spores, which I do not, however if they wish to leave them then maybe add an alt-fire for those spores that fire some kind of spore-spike, which explodes in a smaller cloud of spores. This will help lerks late game as they can get instakilled spreading cropduster spores. The lerk should also get umbra, which could even work in the same way, cropduster umbra and the spike. This is something that should unlock with the second hive.
Regarding fades, perhaps with one hive they just have swipe/blink, and then once the second hive is complete they gain an ability they can use to regain energy similar to metabolize, but not give back HP. Then their energy can be tweaked to keep them usable on one hive, but not overpowering. I also think some kind of mod like Yuuki's fade mod would make it much better.
For marine I dont really think the shotgun needs a nerf, but since there is little else for marines to buy currently there is no reason not to get them. They shouldnt be something that can be researched instantly, i would almost say there should be two tech levels for the armory, one which is researched for say 20 res that then allows you to research shotguns and gls, and another for 20 that allows research of flamers and a heavy machine gun. The resource costs and research time would need to be balanced also, an AA in NS1 was a long research, and the same is not true in NS2.
It's funny what you said before:
<!--quoteo(post=1905450:date=Feb 21 2012, 02:49 PM:name=Tool8)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tool8 @ Feb 21 2012, 02:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905450"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Seriously, what you are doing is complaining about Aliens being too weak in lategame with only one hive? Lol, that's like complaining that marines can not keep up with aliens with only their base extractor. If aliens don't have that hive at that point, marines have done something ###### right and deserve to win. Fade IS NOT weak. Try to spectate some games and look carefully what happens when second hive goes up and fades enter the field.
Before you cry and say aliens are to weak, play more marines. Go and play 10 games as marine in a row. Then come back and tell me if you think you were OP. Did you win most of the games?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
His point is that the aliens are to weak with one hive, not at all.
But you start calling him a crybaby, which is trolling, there is no reason to act like a fool like you did.
I think the most people are right with some points, but not all alien and marine tech is in the game.
I will remember you all about how the game was last year.
The gameplay becomes really predictable because of this, especially in fixed spawns 6vs6 games. In summit, aliens will always try to go for Data Core and marines will always try to plant a phasegate there and in FC. In turtle, it's the Loading rush every time. If marines manage to get the phasegates down and take the hive down, it's pretty much gg. If aliens get the hive up, it's pretty much gg. It always doesn't go like this, but in the majority of the matches it does.
Gorge has as much health as fade at no carapace, by the way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I say give the Gorge the Bilebomb ability at 1 hive, not 2.
In my games marines just seem to be everywhere and getting that second hive up discreetly is difficult due to the marines just showing up everywhere.
Thus aliens getting into the mid game zone almost seems impossible for the *average* team
Marines just move almost twice as fast as in NS1 because of sprint.
In the end, even though I disagree that <b>at the moment</b> Aliens are too weak (they should be at an disadvantage if the don't get the second hive!) we better wait for all the tech to be implemented first, then we can have a really useful discussion about balancing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i find it quite the opposite actually. Once marines have fully researched their tech tree they have a fairly good shot at pushing back out even if they're limited to 1 rt and aliens have complete map dominance. i've only seen 1 alien comeback from the reverse situation. the other night we had 3 onos in our base, down to 1 rt, and aliens had the entire map, then a lone marine went out and knifed/shot a large number of cysts in the map, and then killed the onoses due to attrition, pushed out with siege cannons, and it was gg.
His point is that the aliens are to weak with one hive, not at all.
But you start calling him a crybaby, which is trolling, there is no reason to act like a fool like you did.
I think the most people are right with some points, but not all alien and marine tech is in the game.
I will remember you all about how the game was last year.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not really funny, because you are just taking that sentence out of context. Please don't try to make my posts look inconsistent like that.
Of course as an FPS player it can be annoying to be outteched. You will feel weak when the enemy team has all the tech and you are still stuck with the lifeforms you began with. But from an overall perspective that's just they way it's supposed to be. The team that manages to tech up faster than the other should have the advantage.
Oh, and by the way, I didn't start calling him a crybaby. I was just ironically quoting himself:
<!--quoteo(post=1905317:date=Feb 21 2012, 02:48 AM:name=Price)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Price @ Feb 21 2012, 02:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905317"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Before you cry and say no, read this! The whole Text!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1905450:date=Feb 21 2012, 02:49 PM:name=Tool8)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tool8 @ Feb 21 2012, 02:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905450"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Before you cry and say aliens are to weak, play more marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Obviously that didn't come across as intended. :/
whats the internet <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=0u9JAt6gFqM#t=13s" target="_blank">without these trolls...</a>
Oh and about "play more marines" hmm, lets check your joindate... 1-January 12 and mine...27-September 03.
i bought the special edition, which means i played since the alpha.
So i realy know marines and aliens and the marines are now a bit op, as there was techpoints it was a bit harder.
Whatever thats my mind so your comment about i cry makes no sense, i don't cry, i just say how it feels.
<!--quoteo(post=1905522:date=Feb 21 2012, 07:56 PM:name=Tool8)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tool8 @ Feb 21 2012, 07:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905522"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Before you cry and say no, read this! The whole Text!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1905522:date=Feb 21 2012, 07:56 PM:name=)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ( @ Feb 21 2012, 07:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905522"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Before you cry and say aliens are to weak, play more marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Obviously that didn't come across as intended. :/
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So this is not childish what you done?
You trolls are so annyoing.
Topic:
i repeat but...
I think the worst part of aliens is the defence, the alien defence is not very well.
hydras are weak and a very bad defence, they only block marines some seconds.
Marines defence is way better, only a onos and a gorge can break the marines defence but for that aliens need 3 hives.
I don't mean specialy late games, i talk about earlie and middle games.
Alien players know what i mean, its hard to take out a marine base, because of sentrys, phase gate and stuff, you don't have any chance only if you got 3 hives.
I mean onos and gorge bilebomb are great but aliens get bilebomb to late.
The bilebomb idea from Daphisto is very good in my mind.
The balancing is not easy, i don't say something diffrent, but i guess there have to chance some big at the early games of aliens.
Oh and about "play more marines" hmm, lets check your joindate... 1-January 12 and mine...27-September 03.
i bought the special edition, which means i played since the alpha.
So i realy know marines and aliens and the marines are now a bit op, as there was techpoints it was a bit harder.
Whatever thats my mind so your comment about i cry makes no sense, i don't cry, i just say how it feels.
Obviously that didn't come across as intended. :/
So this is not childish what you done?
You trolls are so annyoing.
Topic:
i repeat but...
I think the worst part of aliens is the defence, the alien defence is not very well.
hydras are weak and a very bad defence, they only block marines some seconds.
Marines defence is way better, only a onos and a gorge can break the marines defence but for that aliens need 3 hives.
I don't mean specialy late games, i talk about earlie and middle games.
Alien players know what i mean, its hard to take out a marine base, because of sentrys, phase gate and stuff, you don't have any chance only if you got 3 hives.
I mean onos and gorge bilebomb are great but aliens get bilebomb to late.
The bilebomb idea from Daphisto is very good in my mind.
The balancing is not easy, i don't say something diffrent, but i guess there have to chance some big at the early games of aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is IMO, and what I encountered ingame, wrong.
A base can always be killed by a group of Aliens. Every def has a blindspot, if you find this blindspot and can manage to kill a building you will get new blindspots. Sure Skulks die fast on sentrys, but if they are suported by a gorge and a lerk, they can destroy alot of buildings on 1 Hive.
And think about cloak. Get 5 cloaked skulks in the marine base and chew down the CC in seconds.
Since the gorilla update we have alot of new players and many of the like to play aliens and those players are weak, especially on PUBs you can see this. If you have a pro fade, lerk, skulk and one gorge, they will destroy a team of 8 to 10 low-midskill players.
IMO if NS2 is played competive aliens seem to be OP, and not the marines.
A base can always be killed by a group of Aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lol...yeah and 8 marines can always be killed by a group of Aliens...
Your comment make sense...not.
Please read the whole topic and then write.
There a lot of good points which show you whats the problem with aliens and marines.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=116536&view=findpost&p=1905451" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1905451</a>
Wasn't my first post.
And if you think def should be killed by 1 skulk in earlygame alone....that is idiotic and would make def usless.
Like you say hydras are usless.....try to lern how to place hydras so they are usfull!
as far as the topic goes:
i have played enough games (all day long pretty much for the past two weeks) to disagree with the point of your thread. your concerns are understandable ofc but i believe you are not considering some factors.
to start with, floodinator is correct, mid game, equal map control on mineshaft with 2 hives, i started fading and was able to have better defense than any hydra could. i literally told my team "dont worry about crushing machine, i can handle any group they send this way" and i could and i did. i racked up so many kills without dying as a fade defending with nary a gorge or skulk to assist. in the meantime while i found wave after wave coming from refinery, the rest of the team launched an attack on their CC in drill repair and they could not beacon in time with those bile bombs. end of game.
i have seen that scenario soooo many times in the past weeks. tug of war for map control back and forth, yada yada, doesnt matter to what degree or level either team is at one sneaky group of individuals, either some shotgun hive rushing marines or a couple of bile bombing gorges with support, the hive or CC goes down WAYYY too fast! and the round is over(<i>usually more when its the CC as marines dont have enough res/ incentive to build two points to spawn like aliens</i>). the onos is not responsible for this most of the time - he usually pops his head in like the US did at the end of WWII, way late to the game but bolstering morale and motivation while providing a distraction and mild support. (unless that player actually focuses on weapon 2 on the CC, which most pubbers dont *supporting floodinator*)
<b>now, to address your points in your op, specifically</b>
<i>"The problem is, aliens are helpless with just one hive."</i>
skulk rushes?? theyre a huge problem right now and they are, as far as ive seen lately, a large part of competitive matches, unfortunately. its just too easy to pull off.
<i>"The aliens are doomed because there is no counterpart to sentrys or jetpacks or mines with just one hive."</i>
you're forgetting that this scenario<u> never happens</u>. when aliens have just one hive, marines dont usually have phasegates unless a hive has been taken down or the commander is new, and at this time marines DEFINITELY wont have jetpacks as nothing in the game takes more teamres. It takes an advanced armory (30), protolab (40), and JP research (35) for a grand total of 105 TRes
also, if they decide to put down mines and sentrys in base while aliens have just one hive (Early game still) they have just spent a lot of tres and pres that will give aliens the advantage as long as they still gain harvesters which ARENT going to be threatened by base defenses and they will win later on. so far this is the only way to truly stop skulk rushes which is a shame as it gives an early lead to aliens in regards to res (and precious time building which could be used to cap res)
<i>"If im alien, what can i do to take out just one little (second-)base of marines?"</i>
uh.. <b>you're not supposed to??</b> its a team game.
<i>"But a fade is also very weak, i mean take a look at the balance stuff:"</i>
thank god he's weak on paper, because in practice, in hands of a skilled player, he is godly. paper does not account for his abilities in conjunction with marines, i.e. practicality
<i>"If the lerk has umbra with hive 2, this would change a lot, "</i>
this, i whole heartedly agree! he needs it. but he needs it to protect his underbelly too while he sprays, as a room of marines or sentries would otherwise have no issue taking him down. i think umbra is still planned?
<i>"its pointless if marines just have a arc, grenade launcher or flamethrower, which can researched and purchased without leaving the base."</i>
i'm sure i'm not getting your point because it seems like you are just pointing out a counter and wondering why there isnt a counter to a counter. its like saying "marines build mines and sentries and PGs but its pointless if aliens just have bile bomb, skulk rushes or onos, and can gestate/upgrade without leaving base" well... yea? thats how its designed. the counter to a counter in this case is teamwork.
<i>"So marines can just defend and stay in base..."</i>
not true IMO, and in fact i don't ever seen marines just stay in base when a round starts, dedicated to turtling. they only turtle in the last moments when the game is lost in their eyes.
<i>"But i want say that marines don't need to spread out very much, they just have to kill rts/build rts and wait...wait for the new tech."</i>
thats literally the same exact thing needed for aliens except for one major imbalance: the need for techpoints! and believe me i hear you on this one, marines need more importance placed on techpoints somehow, they need more incentive for map control besides "Deny aliens res" and they need multiple points of spawning, just like aliens. the incentive has been removed many patches ago for reasons i cant remember
<i>"I like cysts, but they are way to weak, they should get more Healthpoints in my opinion, 1-2 marines kill a cysts very very fast...can you say that for a powernode?"</i>
<b>youre forgetting that there are many many cysts, and only a few powernodes</b>. i bet if you counted the time it took, travel time included as well as time needed to destroy a chain of cysts to prevent a room of structures from being able to grow back (similar goal for powernodes) you would find that time is somewhat on par with taking down a powernode. its not equality, its asymmetry.
so yea, i disagree with your OP mostly, and believe you are not considering these other factors (like paper balance of fade vs in game) but i do agree, however that techpoints need to have more importance to marines currently other than just denying them to aliens - <u>but this does not make "aliens too weak"!!</u> especially when not all the features are in place like umbra. Like floodinator said, pubbers are still learning... last night and the day before were the first times ive seen in a pub game thus far where marines actually established a 2nd base for the sake of a 2nd base. <b>aliens still won.</b>
Anyone know if UWE is keeping track of Alien and Marine wins/losses on a per-map basis?
Are the aliens too weak? Currently, I don't think so.. I consider them "A force to be reckoned with". However, on a good team (equally skilled on both teams) I think the aliens are always the underdogs simply because the Onos can't fly. :P that's map dependant though, sometimes that's a non-issue.
<!--quoteo(post=1905587:date=Feb 21 2012, 05:39 PM:name=Daphisto)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Daphisto @ Feb 21 2012, 05:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905587"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am finding in this current build (197?) that on Mineshaft, Aliens seem to win a lot (maybe because of the positioning of the hive locations?) and on Tram and Summit, Marines win more.
Anyone know if UWE is keeping track of Alien and Marine wins/losses on a per-map basis?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://endgamestats.own.cz/" target="_blank">http://endgamestats.own.cz/</a>
First off, when dealing with each side, you have to always take in to consideration in any game you play, how experienced are the players you're playing with?
-Teamwork
-Individual Skill
-Commander Experience
-Map Control
-Ventrilo + Friends ( Playing on one team )
These factors should always be considered. I have seen both factions take hard knocks making the faction your on, look timid and weak, this revolves around the list I have provided above. One player alone can set the pace of a team, one commander who takes charge, knows what he is doing can lead a pack of infants to the game and make them prevail, it is all decided on who your playing with.
Like any game, these rules will always apply, especially when there are so many factors to consider in a game like NS2, it isn't just an FPS, it also an RTS and an Arena type game when you really step back and look at the big picture. Right now as it stands, I think both factions are relatively balanced. Could some tweaks be done? sure, but I could even say that about modern games that have been out for years, just learn what is the other teams weakness and what needs to be done on your side to help your team win.
The game isn't finished, allow UWE to do what they do best, balance and create the game we all want to love.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Could you maybe...go into <b>more </b>detail? It's no use speaking in generalities/ideals in a discussion like this.
You didn't explain how any of those things allow aliens to transcend the horrible mechanics that are cysts and egg spawns.
I've played plenty of games competitively, with voice communication and all that, and it's pretty obvious that with the way the game is set up now it isn't enough. The point isn't to discuss how a coordinated team in a pub can stomp an uncoordinated team (because communication beats the game mechanics in that case yada yada yada). The point is to discuss what happens when two coordinated teams fight, and the marines decide to kill every egg and skulk with shotguns, then win the game in a predictable and really easy way. Or we could talk about how 1 or more players have to sink all their pres in order for the aliens to get res towers as fast as marines do, and with more sources of vulnerability (cysts as compared to res towers with nanoshield on them). These are all things that don't change as the level of teamwork reaches its peak.
And as for "The game isn't finished" <b>we know that! </b>We're offering feedback as part of the beta experience, instead of just taking it for granted as a way to play the game slightly earlier.
<!--quoteo(post=1905511:date=Feb 21 2012, 01:28 PM:name=assbda)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (assbda @ Feb 21 2012, 01:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905511"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This may be off topic so lets not get too far into it but does it feel like the maps are smaller than the size they were in ns1?
In my games marines just seem to be everywhere and getting that second hive up discreetly is difficult due to the marines just showing up everywhere.
Thus aliens getting into the mid game zone almost seems impossible for the *average* team<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a good example of where the "teamwork" argument <b>does </b>apply. If you think you're getting your hive up 'discreetly' it's because the other team is failing to exercise all their options. For the cost of a lerk, the marines can make enough observatories to scan all the possible hive sites regularly. For the cost of a gorge, they can make 1 observatory and scan at specific times when you would want to expand (this is a classic RTS concept). They can even use players/MACs to scout for hives.
You basically can't "hide" a building hive. There's no ability for the aliens that truly allows you to do that. Therefore you have to protect it using your team's actual resources (players, flanking attacks, distractions etc). This is something that can be done, and it's very well balanced because the effort you put in to defend has to be matched or exceeded by the effort the marines put into attacking (there isn't a mechanic that says "if you can dump 10 pistol bullets into this stationary object, the hive doesn't go up and the aliens lose", like with cysts/eggs).
<b>Here's a fun idea to keep in the back of your mind:</b> when the shift is added and every skulk has celerity in the early game, 90% of the people playing marines and shotgun rushing right now won't stand a chance and the game will *appear* balanced again, even if the core issues aren't addressed. Whether that's good or bad isn't as important as the fact that 50mph skulks are going to be biting heads.
you can't equate t-res with p-res, sorry..
If aliens are indeed weak with only 1 hive but generally win 50% of games against marines then maybe hive 2+ is too strong.
Mind you Exo suits aren't in the game yet.
Personal skill as well is a big factor, marines could be doing better because the masses are used to FPS shooters with guns but not running around meleeing stuff.
Each side needs to play with their strengths. Skulks aren't meant to charge head on into marine's gunfire. Map structure would heavily factor in which side had the uper-hand. Long hallways with minimal vents would favour marines, claustrophobic maps with a lot of turns, short corridors, lots of vents would favour skulks etc.
Carry on.
so if marines arent leaving base, skulks are supposed to sit in a corner and wait?
Depends on the situation, but almost always I'd say the answer to this is yes. You are supposed to gather res for better upgrades/lifeforms and the kill the marines. A group of 5 marines + 1 comm, if camping in base, should be able to take down a swarm of skulks.
Of course if CC is very low, if it's a last ditch effort, or if there's only a couple of marines and it's very early game, or if you have just timing pushed cara for the entire team, then rushing is justifiable. Otherwise losing 5-6 eggs suddenly is really bad if you're on one hive.
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake." - Bonaparte
Yea. If the marines are sitting in the base, waiting for you to attack ... then yea. Wait. Your commander
is busy expanding and getting the res for your second hive... your egg stock is increasing, and you are getting
stronger all the time.
Sooner or later, the marines WILL have to move out.