Rushing Is Evil
Edcrab
Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4324Members
Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4324Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Creates the worst games ever.</div> It is. Really. Any game with an early rush from either side is just awful. GAH!
Note that by "rush" I don't mean the classic invasions of the odd skulk in order to annoy- I feel those are valid tactics. In any case, with a half competent (and decent sized) marine team, the skulk rush will more than likely fail. But if it succeeds, you're going to have instant loss or the most boring game you've ever played.
Take for example the time I joined a game to find that we had no TF or CC. A lone skulk had apparently removed the two while the rest of the team was away. And then the aliens just wouldn't rush for what felt like hours.
I don't think the problem is that the game allows rushes- after all, the above situation should've been prevented by a half-skilled team. No, the problem is that some people think that a rush is <i>acceptable</i>. I beg to differ- when a game ends in five minutes because the marines/aliens rush the hive/CC, regardless of whether better defence would've prevented it, the players had the mindset that viewed such tactics as being "alright". They're not. I really wish people would accept NS for what it was- an action-based RTS dependant on technological research and development- rather than bypassing the best part of the game for a quick (and dull) win.
Some people probbably enjoy a three minute game. I don't, and neither do many others. Some people <i>like</i> an epic tactical struggle rather than a mindless rush that ends with dissapointment. Does anyone actually enjoy rush-won games? Is it just me that finds people like this infinitely annoying?
Note that by "rush" I don't mean the classic invasions of the odd skulk in order to annoy- I feel those are valid tactics. In any case, with a half competent (and decent sized) marine team, the skulk rush will more than likely fail. But if it succeeds, you're going to have instant loss or the most boring game you've ever played.
Take for example the time I joined a game to find that we had no TF or CC. A lone skulk had apparently removed the two while the rest of the team was away. And then the aliens just wouldn't rush for what felt like hours.
I don't think the problem is that the game allows rushes- after all, the above situation should've been prevented by a half-skilled team. No, the problem is that some people think that a rush is <i>acceptable</i>. I beg to differ- when a game ends in five minutes because the marines/aliens rush the hive/CC, regardless of whether better defence would've prevented it, the players had the mindset that viewed such tactics as being "alright". They're not. I really wish people would accept NS for what it was- an action-based RTS dependant on technological research and development- rather than bypassing the best part of the game for a quick (and dull) win.
Some people probbably enjoy a three minute game. I don't, and neither do many others. Some people <i>like</i> an epic tactical struggle rather than a mindless rush that ends with dissapointment. Does anyone actually enjoy rush-won games? Is it just me that finds people like this infinitely annoying?
Comments
It does get boring, I don't like it against me so I try not to do it against oposition. I'd much rather have an hour long fun game and end up losing, than a 5 minute game and win straight away. I usually rush marine base and attack all marines, if successful take out any new buildings but leave the CC. Then just let them rebuild, their growth will be severely stunted but they still have a chance to continue the game (assuming one of my team isn't cruel and ends up finishing the CC off.)
This may sound even worse than just finishing the game, but one of the objectives of an alien is to stop marines expanding afterall.
Rushing
Offensive building
Turtling
Teching
Expanding
Rushing wins games, and works reasonably well. Theres a pretty heft risk involved though, so its fair.
Offensive building is more of a marine tactic than alien (due to aliens lack of res in the early game). It also carries a big risk, but is essentially guarunteed a win if done correctly.
Turtling fails in NS because your enemy will out expand you, and win the tech war.
Teching is a big part of NS as the power of both teams increases GREATLY as tech goes up.
Expanding is essential in NS because of the requirement of res for higher tech, and expanding unlocks/denies certain techs through the presence of hives.
NS basically consists of a tech/expansion war in the vast majority of games.
Besides, that's not often possible with a marine rush due to sizeable alien respawn times.
So suggest a better tactic for a team of skulks with not enough resources for any of them to go Gorge?
You want them to sit around doing F*** all while the marines expand? You want them to split up and hunt down marines individually?
The answer to both those questions is, NO.
The Skulk rush in the first minute of the game is usually the only valid tactic the aliens have. Once they've got a few Gorges on the go and structures going up, then fair enough they can go and skirmish.
Besides, the rush tactic feels right for the game. Look at it like this. On one side, you've got the marines. They want to take out the aliens asap, right? What better way to do it than get in there and take out the hive before it has any defence?
On the other side is the aliens. As soon as they spawn, an instinctive command tells them "cleanse the intruders". What better way that to take out the marines before they can get established?
Sure it leads to short games, but only IF it works. Personally, I've seen it fail far more times than I've seen it succeed. And if you do keep falling to a rush, then you need to rethink your strategy. Or practice your aim.
However, arguing against rushes because a skulk ate your undefended CC is silly. It isn't rushing, it is a case of the marine commander taking a chance at expanding quicker rather than defending his base - and loosing the bet.
Wee! Quoting myself. I feel so... odd.
I'm fine with skulk invasion, I only used the CC situation as an example of what boredom can be created, I know it's stoppable, as I said I'm more bothered that some teams cause early endings by deliberately rushing- and I actually feel marine rushes are the bigger problem here. Practising my aim has no real effect when you're splattered the moment you drop out of the hive.
There we go. Maybe next time I should triple-post the points in the thread before clicking to make it post. Might be more obvious.
Anyway, a skulk literally has nothing to do except rush the marine base.
Rushing:
- can slow down/annoy marines
- can parasite marines
- leaves the skulk dead, feeding more resources to the gorge(s)
- forces the marines to defend their base
- stand practically no chance of succeeding vs a half-decent team.
Marines should be expecting a skulk rush, and deploy accordingly. [tell marines to wait until the rush before leaving base, put up turrets, assign some marines to defend the base etc.] Dealing with a skulk rush isn't hard - marines with 100 ammo should respawn every 5 seconds...
*if* skulk rushes continue on your base, then you are doing something wrong. Those skulks should be trying to retake the hive that you have secured, or defending their second hive, or attacking res nozzles etc. If the skulk has nothing better to do than harass your base - then you've lost anyway.
[the marines should dictate the play - the aliens try to counter]
[EDIT]
"I actually feel marine rushes are the bigger problem here."
Yes, they are - but the solution to that is a mechanical change... alien respawn rates need tweaking based on number of players, and maybe the IP and phase gate might need re-balancing somehow.
[also on some maps, maybe the aliens shouldn't spawn in certain hives? -> e.g. sewer on ns_caged, maintenance on ns_eclipse]
At least I know now that some people actually want a shorter game and thus the whole team rushes with the intent to end the game. Dull... but that's my opinion.
I remember reading a post that basically said: "if you win the game in 5 minutes, then don't worry - it wasn't going to be a good game anyway."
I tend to agree [with the possible exception of marine rushing with IPs/phase gates].
(Crowd speaks): Hi Torak!
There is nothing wrong with skulk rushes, or marine rushes for that matter. As was previously stated, what else is ther for a newly spwaned skulk to do?(gee I just spawned but it's not nice to rush so I am going to run laps around the map while the marine dig themselves in) Skulk rush is easily stopped and is also advantageous to the gorge (please note the singular form of gorge) on your team in the early game. It keeps the marines cautious about expanding and keeps the heat off your gorge. For marines, if they are smart and stay in a group, squashing the rush is a piece of cake and so is rushing the hive. It is a valid tatic carried over from NS's RTS roots. I suggest you find a way get along with it or you will ruin your own games by spending all your time being upset you got rushed.
If the marines rush the alien start hive, you must remember that they only have 100 rounds each of unupgraded LMG. Hives are tough and slow to kill. If the jarheads manage to kill all the skulks and the hive in spawn gear with 100 rounds each, then maybe a 5-minute game is all the aliens were good for anyway.
With competent teams, the rush adds a little spice to the start game, and gets the bloodlust up. It shouldnt end the game, unless one of the teams really steps on their procreation parts (wait a minute, aliens don't have procreation parts . . . )
Your logic is twisted.
If the rules of the game allow rushes, and rushes prove to be very effective, of <i>course</i> the players will rush. After all, people play a game in order to win.
If a certain method is unreasonably effective compared to others, don't blame the people who use it, blame the game design.
Personally, I like wins that take 3 minutes more than losses that take 1 hour, but then again I've always found those who don't care about winning or losing and just play for "fun" very suspicous.
Before you put some lame, newbish topic...."Rushing Is Evil" ....you need to have a few more games under your belt.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with your comments, Jojo, <b>except</b> for this flame, which was completely uncalled for. I note that Ed joined the forum the same day as you (2 Nov), and has over 100 posts, so he is clearly not a N00b and has played his fair share of games. I appreciate his views (even though I do not agree with him.) He is entitled to his opinion, just as every skulk is entitled to gobble as many of my LMG rounds as he wants.
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
If the result of the rush is a victory for your team, then so be it.. Like some dude said before: If you win the game within the first 5 minutes it wasn't going to be a good game anyway. A marine team that can give the aliens opposition will not loose to the early attacks, if they do you get the chanse to change the teams around a bit to make them more fair.. I see no problems with aliens rushing marines, I wouldn't see any problems with the marines doing the same thing if the aliens had a chanse to stop them from doing it.
I really agree with Twex about what he says.. There is no place for being fair to the opposite team when you want to beat the shi.t out of them, if that's not the reason as to why you're playing games, then I think you're on the wrong track...
If the marines rush the alien start hive, you must remember that they only have 100 rounds each of unupgraded LMG. Hives are tough and slow to kill<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The marine rush is nasty, phase gate or not. Two IPs, an observatory and an armory do not take long to build. Even if you bypass the armory, the commander can drop 20 ammo packs so that the 4 or more rushing marines have 1000 rounds between them when they arrive to the Hive... which, at the beginning, is not hard to kill. The first hive starts at HALF health. Half. 4 unupgraded lmg clips is all it takes to kill it provided the aliens have done nothing to quicken its healing...
-d$
I prefer a slower pace to the game, but usually that winds up with the marines losing <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> Whereas, strangely enough, all the organized rushes I've participated in.. alien and marine.. have won their respective games.
Exactly.
Aliens should never win on a first rush unless the marines are ignorant and not watching the doorways. It is that simple. Skulks should instead try to cover the marine exits and ambush anyone that tries to expand. In my experience this has been far more successful than a rush.
/ Wheatevo
Ah, I think I've realised why everyone's being so confusing towards me- clearly some people thought I was on about rushing in general rather than short games (which are caused by rushing), despite my previous remarks. Thanks for pointing that out Vimstl- I guess "Rushing is Evil" (pretty sensationalist... should get into tabloids. heh.) might prompt some people to post without looking at aforementioned points.
To clarify, again, <i>I</i> just don't like early rushes, where every single player on a team rushes out to try and take out the hive. This is a discussion forum, so kindly don't tell me to play more games, thank you, when I'm just pointing out that I personaly hate a rush game in favour of longer strategy. In the same way, I <i>know</i> that if it's possible people will do it. It's just after the umpteenth alien loss to a rush that I wish they bloody well wouldn't <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
This thread was to see who actually enjoyed such short games. I got my answer... although, obviously, biast bugger that I am, I still prefer it when the game goes on for a lot longer.
It's like saying that rushing is cheap in RTS games, or FPS games, or any games.
Whatever. There's nothing to see here, just keep moving on.