It's too hard to maintain map control
Raneman
Join Date: 2010-01-07 Member: 69962Members
Join Date: 2010-01-07 Member: 69962Members
As rines, the second you have more then 3 extractors the game turns into whack-a-mole where you have to send your relatively small marine team out to kill skulks.
There needs to be a way to maintain map control without most of rines' gameplay time consisting of "sprint across the map and kill the skulk."
There needs to be a way to maintain map control without most of rines' gameplay time consisting of "sprint across the map and kill the skulk."
Comments
There needs to be a way to maintain map control without most of rines' gameplay time consisting of "sprint across the map and kill the skulk."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines arent about map control only killing hives before they go up. The only map control really would be locking down a tech point. RTs along the way are a bonus.
There needs to be a way to maintain map control without most of rines' gameplay time consisting of "sprint across the map and kill the skulk."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that a lot of this is due to 2 things.
1. Mobility
2. Strategy
As far as mobility is concerned, especially early on aliens definitely have that advantage, no two ways about it, which gives aliens a headstart as far as map control is concerned.
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As far as strategy is concerned - Depending on the alien spawn in comparison to the marine spawn, there is generally 2 ways in. If your force is correctly split, and you make proper use sentries, I think marines can establish good choke points to force aliens into attacking a certain area. Phase gates are crucial when they are available, utilizing as much marine mobility as possible.
You really need to split the force though, and that may change, 4 at one side and 4 at the other isn't always the best way, sometimes its sufficient to have 1 - 7 or even sentries - 8 depending on the game. You need to analyze the battlefield, assess where they are gaining access to a specific area, and lock it down, even if you are deterring them.
There needs to be a way to maintain map control without most of rines' gameplay time consisting of "sprint across the map and kill the skulk."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines have a problem with map control when they expand too far too early. You need to make use of phase gates. I would also recommend turrets but I feel the res is not worth the effort.
On a side note, Server room in tram needs to be altered. There are no close res points to it that can be easily defended like logistics. Theres needs to be another node around there somewhere that isn't tied to a tech point (observation is not close...).
On another side note, bile bomb needs to be toned down... a lone gorge can do serious damage to a fully developed marine base at the cost of what... 10 res? Nevermind when the come in packs. They may not compeltely destroy it, but often they will take out crucial (and weak) structures like advanced armouries, obs (so you can beacon your team back) etc etc.
One of the reasons I often "rush" to get map control is because I'm so desperate to stop the aliens from getting bile bomb, + obviously the fades.
That's just my 2c from what I've been playing of this new build (and I've played this one A LOT).
Turrets are very underused, and they were the complete opposite in NS1, which is why I think they changed it here, but Marines aren't mobile enough to cause havoc on an alien base. Unless the spawns are very close. But if we are talking opposite spawns, chances are, the aliens are the ones on the aggressive.
Turrets are expensive, but very helpful. For example, your halfway through a decent game, but you have no turrets, a few alien units decide to attack main. If everyone is on the otherside of the map your screwed, except for a beacon.. But then your front line defense is gone.. Beacon is over-used because there is no base defense being built. Aliens have hydras, crags and what have you + regen.
Protect the base, and you can keep more people out fighting.
Turrets are expensive, but very helpful. For example, your halfway through a decent game, but you have no turrets, a few alien units decide to attack main. If everyone is on the otherside of the map your screwed, except for a beacon.. But then your front line defense is gone.. Beacon is over-used because there is no base defense being built. Aliens have hydras, crags and what have you + regen.
Protect the base, and you can keep more people out fighting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, but seeing as how it takes about 3 or 4 turrets to really protect a base, which means 30 to 40 res, it never gets used.
Yea, well it comes down to, passive upgrades/weapon upgrades vs base defense.
This is what I do; if the spawns are close or aliens are overextending and being very aggressive, turtle, pull your teams back, defend as best you can the nodes you have available to you and work on turret defense. Once thats complete, go after the inevitable 2nd hive and start with passive upgrades. This needs to be done before fades are heavily lurking about, and is sometimes not possible. It is a timing and judgement call that needs to be made quickly.
If its opposite spawns your probably okay to do the normal stuff, tech etc.
Also, since you have to build the robo facility for turrets anyway, might as well make a few macs to scout and build a little here and there, while your marines are defending.
I know it all sounds good in theory, but until the game is fully balanced, you gotta do what you gotta do to survive
--- Also, whats more worth it 30-40 res to stay in the game, or losing lol.
I can see how it can seem to be impossible to hold extractors on a public game where noone listens and all go rambo. I don't see any of you providing a solution, though.
<u>It's pretty natural that you lose stuff you don't defend.</u> There always needs to be a guy defending, unless maybe you make an all-out rush on the hive. If the aliens are smart and confident in defending the hive, they will still have one skulk biting res towers instead of defending, and that is a strategic decision, just as having a defending marine is a strategic decision. It's even a lot better since b198, because you can actually weld the res towers now, without wasting 25 res on a robotics and a MAC.
I can see how it can seem to be impossible to hold extractors on a public game where noone listens and all go rambo. I don't see any of you providing a solution, though.
<u>It's pretty natural that you lose stuff you don't defend.</u> There always needs to be a guy defending, unless maybe you make an all-out rush on the hive. If the aliens are smart and confident in defending the hive, they will still have one skulk biting res towers instead of defending, and that is a strategic decision, just as having a defending marine is a strategic decision. It's even a lot better since b198, because you can actually weld the res towers now, without wasting 25 res on a robotics and a MAC.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What I am saying is that if the base is being defended, it leaves alot more marines out in the field to defend your res towers. What I have found is that so many people spend so much time defending main, that there is no one defending anything else, not implying to use turrets to defend res towers.
two reasons on possibly why:
it takes a marine to build or repair a RT, whereas only the alien comm is needed to cyst and lay down harvesters - this allows the focus of aliens to be on the frontlines. this may not need changing if the next point is fixed:
<u>aliens NEED techpoints ... marines do not.</u>
bring back the importance of tech points to marines!
it solves SO many issues. (i.e. turtling, stalemates, one spawn location vs aliens' multiple etc)
I know its not that great of a reason but its about the only one I can find.
Oh, and if marines are always in a state of defending then i would say that your marines are not winning alot of the fights against skulks etc. Due to marine mobility, its important to actually be medding to save alot of death travel time.
The key to good rt defense is to assign marine teams to areas of the map. If you let ur team run rampant and rush into enemy territory to die every time, you might as well give up then and there.
well if you're team is crap, forget about map control. But I agree that map control is pretty much the only reliable way to win marine games. I always try to go for fast phasegates, and lock down 1 or 2 hives (preferable a forward hive which locks off more hives but doesn't require defense of more than one position). Even against fades, as long as you lock down the different hives and have phasegates to allow for quick deployment, you don't need any static base defenses (if an alien team can't take out 3 turrets they are bad anyway). The point then becomes to cut off aliens from expanding their cyst chains, and the occasional scan will allow you to keep a lid on any hives that are behind your front line.
From the original design documents, and still in a lot of the changelogs and design updates, it's clear that the game is supposed to revolve around map control, contested spaces, and incursions into enemy territory. The moment this game becomes about turtling, that moment the game becomes boring as ######.
two reasons on possibly why:
it takes a marine to build or repair a RT, whereas only the alien comm is needed to cyst and lay down harvesters - this allows the focus of aliens to be on the frontlines. this may not need changing if the next point is fixed:
<u>aliens NEED techpoints ... marines do not.</u>
bring back the importance of tech points to marines!
it solves SO many issues. (i.e. turtling, stalemates, one spawn location vs aliens' multiple etc)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I find building in other tech node rooms to be valuable as a means to attack the 2nd hive, but I rarely actually drop the CS on the tech node, for two reasons
1. Opportunity cost: Its almost always more beneficial to spend that 20 TRes on something else (i.e. better weapons, pgs, upgrades, JPs, etc are going to get you much closer to victory than additional CSs)
2. Difficult to defend: Quite simply, most maps design their tech node rooms such that you can't easily defend the tech, res, and power nodes together. For example, in flight control on summit, the res and power node are close enough to each other that I can do a reasonable job of defending them with 1-2 sentries, a pg, and the occasional marine. To also defend the tech node, I'd need to add 1-2 more sentries and more marine time.
@op, frankly, in the latest patches the best way for marines to gain map control is to be aggressive against the aliens when they have one hive. I know it can be difficult, but if you can get in the hive and pop a couple of eggs you can generally egg lock the aliens (i.e. number of aliens dead >> number of eggs available for spawn). If you keep aliens idling in the spawn queue long enough, they simply won't have enough players on the field to take down your undefended outposts.
two reasons on possibly why:
it takes a marine to build or repair a RT, whereas only the alien comm is needed to cyst and lay down harvesters - this allows the focus of aliens to be on the frontlines. this may not need changing if the next point is fixed:<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dont forget MACs, also this is a natural byproduct of one team being far more mobile then the other. Making marines need tech points wont do anything except force them to spread out even more.
I think the trick is not overexpanding and using nano-shield as well as good team coordination. Not to mention pressure, they cant be killing your RTs if theyre busy defending their own.
I find this is a bigger problem on mineshaft though cause the run distance is so damn long.
There needs to be a way to maintain map control without most of rines' gameplay time consisting of "sprint across the map and kill the skulk."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a direct consequence of the marine team (commander) over extending itself (getting greedy and placing RTs everywhere). For the aliens this is less obvious because the cyst network (infestation) has to be spread first, causing the aliens to have a slower expansion rate (in terms of RTs).
Said differently, if the alien commander could place RTs without infestation, the aliens would face the EXACT same problem.
i thought on this... i originally thought it was a good point, and then i realized that every marine game that wins is one of two situations typically:
a) marines shotgun and/or jp rush the hive in a surprised coordinated attack
b) marines slowly spread out throughout the map securing each room at a time utilizing PGs and obs in defense of that adversary's mobility you mentioned, thus "spreading out even more" as you would say.
choice a) is merely a condition of great teamwork and/or current imbalances with CC and Hive HP. most common in organized play.
choice b) is a viable strategy that is frequently used in pug games, <b>so basically i see you only proving my point?</b>.. that when map control is <u>required </u>by means of importance other than defense, such as equal offense and defense in similarity to your adversary, you've created an entirely different strategy overall.
The reasons Scardybob lists reflects the lack of importance and therefore the lack of developed means to set up a 2nd base for marines. the aliens have a major advantage in this area of map control. its a luxury if it ever occurs for marines, currently. This current implementation causes imbalances that are patched with other game design tweaks later on to account for it or to work around it, imho
why not tie them to PG tech and then balance around it? this would encourage at the very least a similar pattern in importance of map control while rewarding it with more ability to control and hold it?
<ol type='1'><li>Mines. Until the second hive they work great.</li><li>Every skulk munching on a res node is one that isn't in place to defend a hive. Ignore them, push on a hive, and put up any nodes on the way.</li></ol>
a) marines shotgun and/or jp rush the hive in a surprised coordinated attack
b) marines slowly spread out throughout the map securing each room at a time utilizing PGs and obs in defense of that adversary's mobility you mentioned, thus "spreading out even more" as you would say.
choice a) is merely a condition of great teamwork and/or current imbalances with CC and Hive HP. most common in organized play.
choice b) is a viable strategy that is frequently used in pug games, <b>so basically i see you only proving my point?</b>.. that when map control is <u>required </u>by means of importance other than defense, such as equal offense and defense in similarity to your adversary, you've created an entirely different strategy overall.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But they need tech to control ground, and if they need to control ground to research tech. Well, you see where this is going. I think that res rather then techpoints should be the crucial thing for marines and that balance should be done around that. Atm I see too often marines ending up with all the fancy toys researched despite only having 1-3 RTs.
How often do commanders nanoshield extractors and send guys with welders to defend them? They deliberately buffed it in 199 for just this purpose, but it's still uncommon to see this done.
How often does a pair of marines run across the map and kill an alien resource tower? You can do the same things the aliens can, but they have to run at you down long hallways while getting shot.
How often does a marine spend 5-11 axe hits to kill a cyst and flat-out deny aliens the <i>attempt </i>to take a resource tower? Play some alien commander and see how much the death of a couple cysts changes the game early on.
Every time I play, I see marines who willfully sit in this defensive state (slowly losing ground as they take damage, and then having these bipolar episodes where they all dive on a hive at the 8 minute mark as their first act of aggression). The problem with this style of play is that you won't get more map control without putting pressure on the opponent.
There are a TON of unexplored ideas in this game that can solve this problem. For instance: open with a fast observatory to discourage shade rushes, take some close res towers (like the 2 closest ones to your spawn), then go rush down a hive and beacon back your team to attack somewhere else...or attack the same place again as a strong group after healing. You force them to return home to defend, while your comm can nano and recycle res towers if they try to counterattack (the aliens don't have this option to exercise). There are just so many ways to approach this game that you don't need to keep adding on new mechanics yet.
Fundamentally, though, you can expect to spend a lot of time running around the map babysitting your buildings. It's basically the point of NS, compared to a game like TF2 where you just push on 1/2 fronts over and over, or Quake where you're racing laps through items instead of inching out across the map taking control.
How often do commanders nanoshield extractors and send guys with welders to defend them? They deliberately buffed it in 199 for just this purpose, but it's still uncommon to see this done.
How often does a pair of marines run across the map and kill an alien resource tower? You can do the same things the aliens can, but they have to run at you down long hallways while getting shot.
How often does a marine spend 5-11 axe hits to kill a cyst and flat-out deny aliens the <i>attempt </i>to take a resource tower? Play some alien commander and see how much the death of a couple cysts changes the game early on.
Every time I play, I see marines who willfully sit in this defensive state (slowly losing ground as they take damage, and then having these bipolar episodes where they all dive on a hive at the 8 minute mark as their first act of aggression). The problem with this style of play is that you won't get more map control without putting pressure on the opponent.
There are a TON of unexplored ideas in this game that can solve this problem. For instance: open with a fast observatory to discourage shade rushes, take some close res towers (like the 2 closest ones to your spawn), then go rush down a hive and beacon back your team to attack somewhere else...or attack the same place again as a strong group after healing. You force them to return home to defend, while your comm can nano and recycle res towers if they try to counterattack (the aliens don't have this option to exercise). There are just so many ways to approach this game that you don't need to keep adding on new mechanics yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you nailed it
i find that on the American servers its alot more turtle style. The Aussie community however often use the tactics you described. 1 or 2 good marines harrasing alien rt's/cysts can set the aliens back a few minutes on their 2nd hive. Another tactic they use on the aussie servers, is to relocate the base, today they did it on summit, we started in FC and relocated to DC whilst leaving 1 ip and 2 marines defending FC
Another tactic ive seen, especially on summit, is to trap aliens in their spawn early game with sentries + marines. An example would be a game i played, we started in FC, and aliens started in SA, we managed to early build 2 sentries in comp lab and then 3 of us defended there, the rest of the marines went to ventilation and got sentries up there, we had total map control with only 5 sentries built.
Another thing i see is offensive mine placement, rather than placing too many mines at your spawn, they are far more effective placing them closer to alien spawn or at far away RT's or areas that skulks would run into them.
Would additional tool-tips or voice-overs help? Different HUD indicators?
What have the Aussies figured out that the Americans need to know?
Would additional tool-tips or voice-overs help? Different HUD indicators?
What have the Aussies figured out that the Americans need to know?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Absolutely nothing about the game's implementation needs to change.
I'll pose some more of my irritating questions!
When you play in the average pub, how many people on your team are communicating via microphones?
How many are at least chatting/reading chat? How many are playing completely alone and costing their team resources/IP time/whatever for no gain?
It's just like any other game. In TF2 you get a team that's all sniper/spies/scouts and they wonder why 8 of them can't beat a couple soldiers and a medic who are working together carefully. It speaks to how well NS2 is put together when you NEED to think about teamplay concepts more than immutable game mechanics.
How many people are checking their minimap every 5 seconds like it's the rearview mirror in their car? Do YOU do this? How many people are finding things to do, instead of idling until their commander gives them an order (at which point they complete it and then idle again)? Even though many of us have played NS1, a lot of people are new to the game and haven't. There's a lot to learn!
As for the regional difference, I think Australia has a much more tight-knit community in really any game. Even though it's one country that's relatively isolated (from north america, europe, southeast asia etc) they always have a big competitive presence in FPS games. People learn and develop their approach to the game faster when they're around people with a similar skill level. In a bigger region like north america, it takes longer for an overall trend to develop because there are so many players (so many are inexperienced, unfamiliar with NS and so on).
Would additional tool-tips or voice-overs help? Different HUD indicators?
What have the Aussies figured out that the Americans need to know?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think changes to the game are needed, it's just a mentality the community needs to get over. I'm a Canadian who found out about this game last night and first played this morning (I'm on the U.S. servers), and it seems I was already applying these "Australian tactics" from just thinking about how the game works.
What I've been hearing from my less successful commanders is a lot of "Hey two people just stay here and defend this spot," which is just bad. (Attack outwards from the objective, sprint back if anything sneaks in. Marine buildings have so much health that I pretty much always get back in time.)
This is another thing to consider. The observatory is what lets you do this with convinction - motion tracking sees things using vents/corners, scans find things in the unknown area up ahead, beacons let you snap back somewhere if you made a bad decision. What most people do, however, is build an observatory so they can get phase tech and then forget to ever use its spells.
For the aliens, parasites and infestation let you do the same sort of stuff. The mistake I see a lot in alien play is the commander says "hive going up at X! go guard it!" so everyone sits in the room containing the building hive 'guarding it.' Then the grenades roll in and the "WTF"s start to fly. If you're building up an area like Crossroads on Summit, there's no excuse for ignoring the entrances to the room, which all have vents or other set pieces to help you flank.
There's another shift in the game slowly brewing too. Last week, the shade was wildly overpowered. Now that the observatory provides a sorta 'soft counter' to early cloak rushes, people are thinking the shade is no good. Guess what, though? If you use the same cloak tactics but attack everywhere there ISN'T an observatory, you can get and maintain map control consistently. Theoretically, you can get into a game of chicken where the marines have to make more observatories, and the aliens make more shades (but not many more). Meanwhile, the aliens are saving the enormous cost of crag upgrades and shells, so they can get their second hive faster. So, a mechanic that used to be for cheesy stupid rushes is now taking on its role as 'giving map control through stealth tactics.' Or it will be when people start experimenting with that, anyway.
For the aliens, parasites and infestation let you do the same sort of stuff. The mistake I see a lot in alien play is the commander says "hive going up at X! go guard it!" so everyone sits in the room containing the building hive 'guarding it.' Then the grenades roll in and the "WTF"s start to fly. If you're building up an area like Crossroads on Summit, there's no excuse for ignoring the entrances to the room, which all have vents or other set pieces to help you flank.
There's another shift in the game slowly brewing too. Last week, the shade was wildly overpowered. Now that the observatory provides a sorta 'soft counter' to early cloak rushes, people are thinking the shade is no good. Guess what, though? If you use the same cloak tactics but attack everywhere there ISN'T an observatory, you can get and maintain map control consistently. Theoretically, you can get into a game of chicken where the marines have to make more observatories, and the aliens make more shades (but not many more). Meanwhile, the aliens are saving the enormous cost of crag upgrades and shells, so they can get their second hive faster. So, a mechanic that used to be for cheesy stupid rushes is now taking on its role as 'giving map control through stealth tactics.' Or it will be when people start experimenting with that, anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah, it's that depth of metagame that makes the strategy side of things really fun.
This is the basic marine play vs 1 hive aliens, this changes a bit when aliens manage to get a 2nd hive to early, then the marines are force into defense mode if they don't have enough tech/upgrades to deal with 2 hive alien team. This is when they are have to have phase gate in key positions and hold at least 4-5 rt's. When they can move out again they start picking of alien rt's to make it easier to take care of their 2 hives(they should not allow the 3rd hive to build, even though its near impossible to prevent that in mineshaft).
While aliens don't have res advantage marines should not have much trouble to brake through their defenses when they got all their tech up.
Simply put, both teams want to force the other team into defensive mode, they can easily pressure all their rt's that way and contain them in a smaller area, making all their bases save even without static defensive structures(saves allot of res)