Re-examining Skulk movement
internetexplorer
Join Date: 2011-10-13 Member: 127255Members
Join Date: 2011-10-13 Member: 127255Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Starting with the basics</div>I just watched Skie's new video explaining the b201 skulk movement, and I'm hoping I can practice it to become less awful with the new jumping mechanic.
The video got me thinking, and I'm wondering about the future of the skulk. Let me elaborate!
The walljump is considered a 'skill-based movement mechanic' (like strafejumping, bunnyhopping, circlejumping, doublejumping, crouchsliding, weaponjumping...the list kinda goes on for a while). These are a big part of NS1 and lots of classic FPS games from that era. Why are they popular and important parts of this style of FPS game?
<ul><li>They give players another thing to do - another skill to perfect. Another way to marvel at great players and see how far you can push a game beyond its base.</li><li>It's fun to see yourself move really fast around the map, and know that you did it (not the game). You didn't simply hold W and move at speed 11 as the skulk - you did a bunch of cool walljumps that you probably spent some time practicing</li><li>It allows players to alter how predictable their movement is and raise the level of psychology ("mindgames") involved in combat</li></ul>
To me, that last one is the most important. The lasting fun of advanced movement (for me) is how it changes the player interactions in combat, not how fast I can run laps around the map in an empty server, or how fast I can capture flags or that kind of thing.
<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Now, the reason I'm concerned about the skulk:<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<b>Before leap is available, the walljump is an extremely predictable form of advanced movement. When you are not already moving quickly, you are forced to run toward walls/props, in order to start closing the distance toward or away from opponents at a high speed.</b>
That's a mouthful of course. What I'm saying is that the walljump is inherently predictable, because you can't trigger it off the floor in the middle of a room. You have to make a time investment (while getting shot) in order to reach your walljumping platform, and only after that do you start to see the fruits of your labour. As a marine going up against a skulk that hasn't gotten speed yet, you can anticipate that they will run toward walls (rather than directly toward you) - if they don't, they're strictly giving you easy shots, and if they do, they're likely giving you easy shots (unless you fail to kill them before they perform the steps to get speed).
To see the opposite of this, check out <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPbf6ToctVw#t=2m44s" target="_blank">this youtube clip</a>. In CPMA (a Quake 3 mod based heavily around advanced movement), the players can accelerate using a variety of techniques no matter where they are. Obviously, this is a game very unlike NS2. I'm not saying NS2 should become CPMA with aliens. However, I think the skulk needs more than "predictable walljumping" before you get to leap.
<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Leap is great, by the way.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> It basically exemplifies what I'm talking about in Quake. You can leap at any time, and in any direction, and use it to chain into and out of walljumps in a much shorter timespan. You can even use it without any walljumps, just to start a quick bunnyhop on the ground. With enough speed, you can use your air control to dodge shots (what you're really doing is confusing the other player as they try to aim), and close the distance.
<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Now, there's another side to this issue, too: <!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->when the Shift is in the game, will it still have a 'celerity' upgrade? What effect will that have? Will it put my concerns to rest completely? If anyone wants to share some information about that, I'd like to hear it. Right now it seems like the hive 1 skulk is designed around walljumping, and the balance changes from patch to patch focus solely on that...without addressing what I see as a core design flaw.
Thoughts?
The video got me thinking, and I'm wondering about the future of the skulk. Let me elaborate!
The walljump is considered a 'skill-based movement mechanic' (like strafejumping, bunnyhopping, circlejumping, doublejumping, crouchsliding, weaponjumping...the list kinda goes on for a while). These are a big part of NS1 and lots of classic FPS games from that era. Why are they popular and important parts of this style of FPS game?
<ul><li>They give players another thing to do - another skill to perfect. Another way to marvel at great players and see how far you can push a game beyond its base.</li><li>It's fun to see yourself move really fast around the map, and know that you did it (not the game). You didn't simply hold W and move at speed 11 as the skulk - you did a bunch of cool walljumps that you probably spent some time practicing</li><li>It allows players to alter how predictable their movement is and raise the level of psychology ("mindgames") involved in combat</li></ul>
To me, that last one is the most important. The lasting fun of advanced movement (for me) is how it changes the player interactions in combat, not how fast I can run laps around the map in an empty server, or how fast I can capture flags or that kind of thing.
<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Now, the reason I'm concerned about the skulk:<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<b>Before leap is available, the walljump is an extremely predictable form of advanced movement. When you are not already moving quickly, you are forced to run toward walls/props, in order to start closing the distance toward or away from opponents at a high speed.</b>
That's a mouthful of course. What I'm saying is that the walljump is inherently predictable, because you can't trigger it off the floor in the middle of a room. You have to make a time investment (while getting shot) in order to reach your walljumping platform, and only after that do you start to see the fruits of your labour. As a marine going up against a skulk that hasn't gotten speed yet, you can anticipate that they will run toward walls (rather than directly toward you) - if they don't, they're strictly giving you easy shots, and if they do, they're likely giving you easy shots (unless you fail to kill them before they perform the steps to get speed).
To see the opposite of this, check out <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPbf6ToctVw#t=2m44s" target="_blank">this youtube clip</a>. In CPMA (a Quake 3 mod based heavily around advanced movement), the players can accelerate using a variety of techniques no matter where they are. Obviously, this is a game very unlike NS2. I'm not saying NS2 should become CPMA with aliens. However, I think the skulk needs more than "predictable walljumping" before you get to leap.
<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Leap is great, by the way.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> It basically exemplifies what I'm talking about in Quake. You can leap at any time, and in any direction, and use it to chain into and out of walljumps in a much shorter timespan. You can even use it without any walljumps, just to start a quick bunnyhop on the ground. With enough speed, you can use your air control to dodge shots (what you're really doing is confusing the other player as they try to aim), and close the distance.
<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Now, there's another side to this issue, too: <!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->when the Shift is in the game, will it still have a 'celerity' upgrade? What effect will that have? Will it put my concerns to rest completely? If anyone wants to share some information about that, I'd like to hear it. Right now it seems like the hive 1 skulk is designed around walljumping, and the balance changes from patch to patch focus solely on that...without addressing what I see as a core design flaw.
Thoughts?
Comments
I don't see the necessity of a bunnyhop-like movement. Wall jumping gives you a skillful movement system. Part of the skill of skulk is to engage properly. If you get caught in the middle of a room with no speed going on, you should be punished for it.
It's kinda hard with things like upward-sloped staircases...sometimes you just get surprised and don't want to react by running at the nearest wall.
I dunno. Seems odd to me.
It's kinda hard with things like upward-sloped staircases...sometimes you just get surprised and don't want to react by running at the nearest wall.
I dunno. Seems odd to me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, if you're just walking along on the ground as a skulk and you walk into a marine, then yeah. It's pretty easy to walk on the wall or the ceiling if you're unsure what is infront of you. And from the wall/ceiling you can do a downward leap up to ~9 speed and wall jump up or spam jump to close the distance.
And celerity is coming, it will up the skulk base speed by about 15-20%. You can already test it by typing "cheats 1" and "dev 1" when you make a server, then research shift hive and plop down a celerity spur.
Why is this extremely uncreative task (that requires considerable time spent practicing) also the determining factor in whether someone can play the basic alien lifeform effectively? Why is leap so much easier to use <b>and </b>more powerful?
I'm okay with having deep mechanics for players to develop, but it seems like the walljump right now is much too important and much too unforgiving.
At worst you're left with a bhop like system that's still far more limited by the surroundings.
Why is this extremely uncreative task (that requires considerable time spent practicing) also the determining factor in whether someone can play the basic alien lifeform effectively? Why is leap so much easier to use <b>and </b>more powerful?
I'm okay with having deep mechanics for players to develop, but it seems like the walljump right now is much too important and much too unforgiving.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Skulk is the basic non specialized life form. Fade already has skill based movement, they are incredible fragile and you need to keep it alive using the tools at your disposal. Same with Lerk, but his concept is escape enemies is a bitter easier.
An incredible amount of importance is put on early game. If you want good competitive action at the beginning with a high skill cap, skill based movement for skulk is the way to do it. Honestly to me this seems like easier for people to catch on with the sound cues than bhop ever was. I'd love to see a practice wall jump map accessible under tutorials or some such for the game. Wall jumping is also fun.
I barely even play NS2, I login like once a week now, I swear to god I can go marine or fade and just dominate teams after playing Quake for a few hours. I am not trying to act "cocky or conceited" I am just telling you how it is. One good player can easily destroy in the game because it's so bobby basic and easy. The guns have no recoil, skulks have no special movement or style that makes them hard to hit, expect for the bad netcode and messed up hitboxes. Fade? You can just walk around smacking marines in the face without even trying that class is so easy. The only way a fade gets killed is if he runs in to a room with 5 marines shotgunning and turret spam is on him.
Like I said, I expected more in the movement aspect, where you have complete control of your character through all classes and factions of the game, not just one type. Marines are sluggish and boring... and please don't bring up realism, because I promise you in real life, I run faster and I am more agile than how a marine plays out in the game. You push back pedal and you walk like a snail, you jump and move your a sitting duck to any alien species. I just expected a bit more "fun skill based movement" to the game.
But whatever, I know in the end, they will do whatever they have to do to sell more box sales to the mainstream crowd like all companies and leave us with another game that "could have went pro" like the old cs 1.6, quake and unreal tournament days. Seems like the industry butchered that scene.
At worst you're left with a bhop like system that's still far more limited by the surroundings.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This.
Pretty much.
At worst you're left with a bhop like system that's still far more limited by the surroundings.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would argue that at least in its current state, it's better than bunnyhop because:
- It's dynamic, making it unique for every map and situation (=fun, challenging)
- Allows more control than bunnyhop because you can modify the height of your jumps by looking up/down. I think this is the biggest thing because you're not limited to existing from a normal jump's height off the ground all the time.
- Pretty dang cool because it's new
There has to be some system for the skulk that people can practise and become better at, which gives the game and the class longevity. I'm pretty sure that if players like the game enough in general, they will notice that some skulks are moving differently and are going faster, and they are willing to investigate it.
There also has to be incentive for getting more than one hive, even for skulks, and leap's doing great for that. Although it's still way imbalanced how fast you can go.
- It's dynamic, making it unique for every map and situation (=fun, challenging)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol, I love ya Skie but i dont find this mechanic of jumping off walls fun or fluid. Bhop at least had a grace to it and could be used in all parts of the map.
<!--quoteo(post=1917397:date=Mar 25 2012, 08:55 AM:name=Skie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skie @ Mar 25 2012, 08:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917397"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Allows more control than bunnyhop because you can modify the height of your jumps by looking up/down. I think this is the biggest thing because you're not limited to existing from a normal jump's height off the ground all the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
but the wall jumping lacks air control, a way on maintaining your speed without a wall around, and open spaces are a limiter on using it at all.
<!--quoteo(post=1917397:date=Mar 25 2012, 08:55 AM:name=Skie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skie @ Mar 25 2012, 08:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917397"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Pretty dang cool because it's new<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or pretty dang awful because it is new.
<!--quoteo(post=1917397:date=Mar 25 2012, 08:55 AM:name=Skie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skie @ Mar 25 2012, 08:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917397"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There has to be some system for the skulk that people can practise and become better at, which gives the game and the class longevity. I'm pretty sure that if players like the game enough in general, they will notice that some skulks are moving differently and are going faster, and they are willing to investigate it.
There also has to be incentive for getting more than one hive, even for skulks, and leap's doing great for that. Although it's still way imbalanced how fast you can go.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Basically you could apply the same argument to BHop if it would just be implemented and tweaked to be user friendly. IE: You can hold the forward key and a built in 3jump script. It's as if you are wall jumping but using the floor. If you dont want the rage posts just call it...... (pause for dramatic effect)
<i><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Floor Jumping<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></i>
<!--quoteo(post=1917397:date=Mar 25 2012, 09:55 AM:name=Skie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skie @ Mar 25 2012, 09:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917397"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- It's dynamic, making it unique for every map and situation (=fun, challenging)
- Allows more control than bunnyhop because you can modify the height of your jumps by looking up/down. I think this is the biggest thing because you're not limited to existing from a normal jump's height off the ground all the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
These are some of the last arguments I'd use for arguing that something is superior to NS1 system. Control and creativity are some of the very things that make NS1 movement so amazing.
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The NS1 movement system is almost the definition of dynamic movement for me. I can still see people being inventive and creative with skulk even after all these years and I still feel I can learn new ways to look at maps and situations movement wise. I can't say I'd have enough of first hand experience on wallhopping to argue on its creativity, but it's certainly not something I'd use as an argument why something is better than the system we've explored for years and still keep exploring.
Also, I don't think anything really prevents us from adding the creative aspects of wallhop into the frame of bhop - One of my favourite aspects of the whole NS1 system is how well it combines and blends with everything else that is in the game.
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The NS1 movement implementation is also the very definition on control for me. For example the NSJumped vids describe how extremely precise the whole movement is. You can do a dozen railings backwards if you're familiar enough with the area. Being able to redirect yourself from walls is certainly interesting, but it's something you can do to some extend in NS1 system already and I don't think there's anything that prevents such features from being added to bhop frame if they do good for the gameplay.
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Basically the positives the wallhop has at this point could probably be features in bhop 2.0 rather than serving as a stand alone system limited to the proximity of walls. I can accept things like accesibility and immersion as major bhop setbacks, but right now the wallhop isn't necessarily a major step forward on those.
Once 'feature' from NS1 with skulk that is also forgotten was biting while looking up, which would jar the marines view (and make some rage lol). This along with bhop allowed you to close the gap almost instantly, and then actually kill the marine without dying. However you also had much better marine movement to evade those ambushes.
Wallhop may have some depth to it, but NS1 basically had a very similar system already, which was more of an extension of bhop.
In the end however as much as i hate to say it NS2 is really shaping up to be a public only game, with competitive play mostly non-existent. There are a lot of people that have played competitive NS1 who's opinions go overlooked or they get flamed for them. Obviously they may be slightly biased, however they also generally have a good idea of what made NS1 the competitive team based game it was, and to ignore that is foolish. I wish that UWE would maybe call upon some of the old NS1 playtesters that had significant competitive experience for some honest feedback, i think it would help them understand how people feel without the hate and flaming that the forums brings. Cloud King comes to mind as a good person to ask.
<a href="http://www.ensl.org/movies/147" target="_blank">http://www.ensl.org/movies/147</a>
Or for some good teamplay:
<a href="http://www.ensl.org/movies/158" target="_blank">http://www.ensl.org/movies/158</a>
The maps are somewhat different NS2 style, but watch how they move to close the gaps, its not just about moving fast.
The NS1 system offered almost unlimited variations.. Years later i still see people do things differently or in ways that i did not know was even possible, and ive played NS1 since 1.0
The definition of rapid movement is predictability in my opinion. A slow unpredictable target is moderately difficult to hit, a fast predictable target is moderately hard to hit, a fast unpredictable target is near impossible to hit. I think humans aim mainly with prediction, and I think if something is moveing rapidly we attach an abstract concept of momentum to it. Things which move rapidly and change direction rapidly don't really make much sense.
It's exactly what I did and that's why I ask the question.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Predictability : As a skulk you want to make your trajectory as unpredictable as possible, but we also want to avoid randomness/silliness.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually, in one sense it needs to be predictable. If you just want to dodge a hitscan weapon, the most effective way is always randomly spamming alternating strafe keys. That makes your movement as unpredictable as it is possible to get. Hitting the strafe keys randomly doesn't really take any practice to do at maximum efficiency however, so it isn't a very good game mechanic. Bunnyhopping introduces a counter-point to that, in that it forces you to move in predictable patterns to gain speed. That's the beauty of it -- that it actually makes you more predictable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An incredible amount of importance is put on early game. If you want good competitive action at the beginning with a high skill cap, skill based movement for skulk is the way to do it. Honestly to me this seems like easier for people to catch on with the sound cues than bhop ever was. I'd love to see a practice wall jump map accessible under tutorials or some such for the game. Wall jumping is also fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except what ends up happening is new players find the game slow and clunky, and old players like me who don't feel like re-learning the skulk every build just stop caring and want something completely different. There are also some people who are obsessed with skulk movement (in a good way), and I wish I had their patience!
Part of what I'm saying is the walljump actually has a low skill cap. Why? Because there are only so many ways you can move through an area via walljumps. It's like running on the floor (point A to point B) but you use some walls/props which never change except during map updates. The mechanical 'button pressing' aspect is easy once you spend the time to learn it, too. Guess what else, though? The skill floor is what people will see when they try this game for the first time. Do you want them to see that the skill floor is miles beyond them, or do you want them to recommend NS2 to their friends?
<!--quoteo(post=1917397:date=Mar 25 2012, 05:55 AM:name=Skie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skie @ Mar 25 2012, 05:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917397"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would argue that at least in its current state, it's better than bunnyhop because:
- It's dynamic, making it unique for every map and situation (=fun, challenging)
- Allows more control than bunnyhop because you can modify the height of your jumps by looking up/down. I think this is the biggest thing because you're not limited to existing from a normal jump's height off the ground all the time.
- Pretty dang cool because it's new
There has to be some system for the skulk that people can practise and become better at, which gives the game and the class longevity. I'm pretty sure that if players like the game enough in general, they will notice that some skulks are moving differently and are going faster, and they are willing to investigate it.
There also has to be incentive for getting more than one hive, even for skulks, and leap's doing great for that. Although it's still way imbalanced how fast you can go.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
- 'old school' bhop like in HL1/CPMA/QW is more dynamic because you can make more use of air control as you fall back to the ground between jumps. With the walljump system in NS2, the only way to achieve something similar is by 'cross-hatching' back and forth between the opposite walls in a room, which makes you close the gap much slower than you should. If you air control out of a walljump and don't walljump soon enough after, friction neuters your speed again (I could be wrong about this since I'm bad, feel free to correct me). The same is true with "speeding up from the hive to the front by constantly walljumping" - not only is it a huge chore but it's incredibly map dependent and <b>can </b>waste a lot of time for those of us who haven't perfected it. Like, you know, everyone who will play it at PAX. Instead of being unique for every situation, maps will be <b>less unique</b> overall because they'll have to be designed around this mechanic.
- The way the current implementation is, this doesn't seem significant enough. I didn't really know about it, to be honest. The focus for players when they sit down to play is speed. They run at a marine at a snail's pace and get shot, then start searching for solutions. Jumping slightly higher in a predictable path doesn't help them solve their problem (at least not directly). Nothing about the game will help people immediately notice this, unless they've already turned on the speed meter and started dissecting the skulk walljump .... and nobody will do that when they first pick up this game.
- It would be new if Warsow and the Unreal games didn't already have walljumping and much more, still with skill indexing but a much more intuitive implementation (single button press). It might be worth playing Warsow for half an hour to see what a movement system designed for user-friendliness looks like, because otherwise you'll be balancing this game around skulks who can't trigger the walljump in 4 months.
There's a good introductory tutorial video for Warsow movement <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sop4AJ4kW6g" target="_blank">here</a>. It's useful to look at it, because it's like Skie's videos but it explains things that are much easier for players to pick up and integrate into their gameplay. It might also be good inspiration for the design of the skulk (because it IS a work in progress, right?). Something like a 'special movement modifier key', and design around that, would go a long way toward user friendliness.
As for 'providing things for skulk players to work on' I'd say there are already lots of those if you take out walljumping. I don't want to list them, but I will say that no other role in the entire game has something like walljumping to learn, because the other classes/guns/armors have <b>mechanically simple</b> requirements with depth. For instance, the lerk is a class that has more versatile movement than anything else in the game. In spite of that, anyone can pick it up and fly pretty well in 5 minutes if they understand <i>how birds work</i>. There's still a big difference between them and the diehard lerk players, and they have a long way to go. But at least they were able to start quickly, because there's a level of familiarity in what they're doing. Where in real life/movies/TV/books is there a character that has to bring a protractor and calculator with him to walljump?
As for leap, I think it's fine right now and I agree that it's good to have incentives like leap. I just think the hive 1 skulk needs to not be tied to walljumping. I really don't see how leap is imbalanced either. I still shoot leaping skulks down because I can aim a gun in a video game. Are people complaining? A skulk can move as fast as he wants, but ultimately he has to stop in melee range every time he wants to deal damage. You can go crazy leaping and walljumping after each bite lands to confuse marines (and this is great fun), but that's still time in which they know you can't bite again, and they're shooting you. Fast moving skulks isn't as big a balance problem as you might think if it requires a second hive to be realized.
<b>Also, Yuuki:</b>
"Bunnyhopping introduces a counter-point to that, in that it forces you to move in predictable patterns to gain speed. That's the beauty of it -- that it actually makes you more predictable."
No. The reason QW/HL-style bhop is good is that you have more speed overall, and enough air control to put it to use. You keep your speed by continuously jumping, but nobody outside the most novice player always jumps forward in a straight line. Most people make big turns between jumps, to confuse people about which direction they will take. Even in <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ofHjF2jyV0" target="_blank">this low-level Quake Live duel </a>you can see what I'm talking about in action. For instance, there are 5 or 6 different ways to grab the red armor (all moving on different paths, with different time/health investments, different levels of mechanical skill floor). There are several ways to use the middle staircase (on the low ground) as well. See if you can spot them! Aerowalk is basically <i>the </i>classic duel map, and it's in every Quake game, because there are 5 or so ways to go from every point A to every point B. They all have different tradeoffs related to the movement system. It's not a skulk bunnyhopping from wall to wall down the same tunnel, the same way every time. This kinda went off on a big tangent, but there are some things to take away:
<ul><li>Movement mechanics depend on maps</li><li><i>Good </i>movement mechanics depend on player psychology and decision making more than on mechanical skill that could be perfected by a group of monkeys with typewriters</li><li>Maps have to be designed for movement systems, and movement systems have to be designed for maps. In NS2, we've played summit since before there was an onos, but we still use it to judge how well the new iteration of skulk movement works with each patch. Is that right?</li></ul>
What Mkk_Bitestuff is referring to in NS1 is the same idea, but my expertise is with quake so I tend to prefer explaining that..
"Bunnyhopping introduces a counter-point to that, in that it forces you to move in predictable patterns to gain speed. That's the beauty of it -- that it actually makes you more predictable."
No. The reason QW/HL-style bhop is good is that you have more speed overall, and enough air control to put it to use. You keep your speed by continuously jumping, but nobody outside the most novice player always jumps forward in a straight line. Most people make big turns between jumps, to confuse people about which direction they will take.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He got those quotes from an article I wrote (in which I quoted somebody else...), so I feel compelled to reply.
NS1 style bunnyhopping movement is very predictable because air control/air acceleration limitations force you into certain trajectories if you want to maintain top speed, and you don't have rocketjumping or similar tools to instantly change your trajectory. Making "big turns" doesn't actually make you less predictable, rather the opposite as it just makes your trajectory that much more obvious. Bear in mind that "jumping forward in a straight line" doesn't actually increase your speed in goldsrc (HL1 engine). Bunnyhopping resulting in predictability is actually a good thing for a melee vs ranged game and it also introduces a disincentive for bunnyhopping -- sometimes the extra speed isn't actually worth it.
Leap has little to no skill depth and will never be viable "skill based movement" (I really hate that phrase by now).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you air control out of a walljump and don't walljump soon enough after, friction neuters your speed again (I could be wrong about this since I'm bad, feel free to correct me).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Friction does slow you down, but not very fast. If you get to a speed of, let's say 15 (which is already twice faster than skulk's normal ground movement speed), you jump something like 5-10 times along the ground before you speed falls back down under 10. The better you time your jump from the ground, the more speed you carry over to the next jump, but there is a small amount of air friction as well.
Either way, this is really frustrating to talk about because everyone has really strong views of their own, and have a hard time accepting that of others. I've stated my reasons why I think the current system is already better, and it will get more layers of polish to it. Have patience.
We just want this game to be designed with the right reasons in mind. When people say "we aren't making X like in NS1" they never explain why they aren't, which makes it seem like you're designing things for the sake of being different. This game still has skulks, and they still leap. Why don't they bunnyhop? Is it because people are irrationally afraid of putting bunnyhopping in the game? I guess I'm operating on the same level of rhetoric now, at least. The arguments against bunnyhopping always seem to amount to people being afraid of classic FPS games, and wanting 'the next generation' to be completely different.....even though they can see from games like call of duty 75 that this approach <b>sucks</b>.
<!--quoteo(post=1917553:date=Mar 25 2012, 01:04 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Mar 25 2012, 01:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917553"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Leap has little to no skill depth and will never be viable "skill based movement" (I really hate that phrase by now).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe it should have skill depth then? A topic for this thread?
So, you know, why exactly does a game need bunnyhop to be a good game exactly? Why can't we just have skulks jumping off walls because it's cool? this is why we can't have nice things guys, this is why.
IMO walljump is pretty cool, flinging myself off walls and stuff to attack marines, feels realistic, feels nice. Why are you all angry at a gameplay addition to realism?
<!--quoteo(post=1917645:date=Mar 25 2012, 10:34 AM:name=Mkk_Bitestuff)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mkk_Bitestuff @ Mar 25 2012, 10:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1917645"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its more about the gameplay of it, its not just that i want the movement to feel like NS1, its also that i see no way for NS2 skulk to be balanced at a higher skill level. With the larger model and restrictive movement you will die everytime against a skilled player (assuming FPS and other improvements). Do you think the NS2 skulk is prepared to handle marines that 15 bullet'd bhop NS1 skulks all day?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's better ways to balance a game.
So, you know, why exactly does a game need bunnyhop to be a good game exactly? Why can't we just have skulks jumping off walls because it's cool? this is why we can't have nice things guys, this is why.
IMO walljump is pretty cool, flinging myself off walls and stuff to attack marines, feels realistic, feels nice. Why are you all angry at a gameplay addition to realism?
There's better ways to balance a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I will take good game play over realism and better graphics any day =)
Every map has floors that form the distance between you and your opponents. Maps are not all designed with bordering walls/props in places that allow you to close the distance with walljumping. That you have to 'start' and 'finish' walljump sets with specific steps adds predictability in a way that cannot be avoided.
As for relearning things, you're half right: if the walljump mechanic in b201 was new, there would be no excuse for me needing to learn to do it. The problem is the mechanic (and its end result when performed) have been the same for months. It just becomes more irksome to pull it off whenever someone plays with the implementation, and I don't see any gain coming from that except that Skie's videos get a lot of views.